Is the Church as True as the Gospel? -A Conversation with Terryl Givens

[@terrel_shumway]

I had never heard of Brother England before listening to this interview. I am impressed by a sense of honesty and practicality-acknowledgements of the weaknesses of our mortal condition-in his writing that seems absent in much preaching. But I only recognized its absence when I saw its presence. I have a lot of work ahead of me to reevaluate many dogmas that I have embraced in the past.

[@curtishowe2288]

Thanks for a great video! I think a lot of people will find this discussion helpful! As someone who has had to work closely with Church leaders that could have represented the Savior to others better I can say there are two major things for us to learn from these experiences: 1- Due to agency the church as an organization is not perfect. It can be but it sometimes has issues. The Savior teaches us we need to be loving and forgiving of others. The church is a way to teach the principles of the gospel and sometimes that lesson needs to come from a leader. The point of the church is not to love a church but to help us collectively work on our relationship with Christ. That relationship is the key and what will save us in the next life. 2- Always remember the Key advice when dealing with others- D&C 121:41-44. This is exactly how we should approach our leaders and exactly how they should approach us. If we use this then things will work out. Maybe not quickly but they will work out. I have used this in my life many times and it has never failed me in any situation. Christ has already taught us how to handle leaders that might still be learning the gospel themselves. If we follow his example we will always get it worked out.

[@RowanBlake]

I feel like I need to write a lot of this in my journal because I am one of the ones who struggles so much. I feel like I have been shunned for 20 years because I am not married. But there is no other church that fits my belief system. TY a lot of this has helped.

[@BreatheDJOY]

Thank You! Receiving ~ Markers ~along My Path & Struggle To Hold On ~ Among The Very Messy Peeks & Valleys ( i Can’t Un- See Or Un- Know ) cognitive dissonance really tough ! ~ Albeit I Am A Seeker Of Pure Truth Thank You 🕊

[@Thebigclockstore]

I loved this so much I transcribed (probably not perfectly) part of it. I thought I'd share. This has changed the way I see "Spirituality". Thank you!!! Starts here: In our response to other exasperating Saints lies our very salvation. Eugene England We can't develop those godlike attributes of mercy unless we're given a chance to exercise mercy. We can't acquire divine forgiveness unless we're given abundant opportunities to forgive. So all those moments in the church that are cause for anger, exasperation, frustration, are precisely the moments that can and need to serve as catalysts to develop Christlike qualities. And so it's not the case that we just have to tolerate the imperfections of the institution. It’s that the institution is deliberately configured in such a way as to confront us with some of the most seemingly intolerable situations. He thought the single most inspired aspect of that dimension of the church as a provocation for righteousness was its geographical boundedness by wards because that means we are forced into proximate interaction with a group of people we wouldn't have necessarily chosen to be peers of. So very much like a family we learn to love people we never would have chosen to belong to. Church is a laboratory. Are we servants or are we consumers? It seems like many times our approach to the church is more like a consumer. Like, I find classes boring. I don't get anything out of it. I mean that's the same thing you'd say about a movie that you don't like, Oh, it was boring and I didn't get anything out of it. Why did I invest in that? In many cases we misapprehend the purpose of the church. I had this experience as an undergraduate that really was formative. My roommate tugged at my arm and said, it’s time for family home evening. I turned to him and said, I’m not going to go. I don’t get anything out of it. I’ll never forget, he turned to me and said, well, why don’t you ask yourself what you can give instead of what you can get out of it because that is always your attitude. And boy did I feel the reproof of that moment. But I recognized he was right. There is always someone lonelier than you are at church. If your attitude is, I can make this Sabbath day holier by interacting with somebody lonelier or sadder than I am, I think you have understood the true spirit of worship. The history of the idea of "Spirituality" in the 1800s was an excuse to turn one's back on social commitments and harbor the illusion that we can find our way to God in some isolating moment in nature. You may think you're closer to God when you're walking in the mountains and admiring a starry sky but those sentiments have little to do with the Social Gospel Christ taught, which is all about how we interact with and serve one another. So this idea that you can be spiritual without being religious is deeply flawed. My church gives me the structure and discipline to create those bonds and connections with people which I think is the real Christian message. Fiona and I don’t look at our Sunday attendance to our meetings as the pivotal moment of our religious lives. It’s incidental. Our religious lives are constituted by the prayers we have and the service we try to render. And oh ya, there are these meetings we attend and the very important sacrament we participate in, but if church attendance is the apex of your spiritual life, then I think you need to reexamine what discipleship means to you and how you're trying to construct it. I go back to the early Christians, for them it was community. That’s how they experienced discipleship--in community, day in day out, taking care and loving each other. We know very little about the services that were conducted every week for an hour. That wasn’t the focus of their religious lives and it shouldn’t be ours either. Sunday school is more of a social ritual. Don’t expect that that is going to feed you spiritually necessarily...It CAN. Is the Church as True as the Gospel? A conversation with Teryl Givens on Eugene England (Truth Matters Podcast May 15, 2021)

[@MarcieNielsen]

Thanks for sharing your transcription. This was the part I wanted to record, too.

[@dagbertwilliams1681]

This was such a terrific discussion! The church is as true as the gospel because the gospel proclaims that repentance is central to the salvific life. The church shows us that messy process of repentance, and lays bare the splendor and grotesque of the human heart. For the word of God is like a two-edged sword that divides. This generation of tension, I believe, is part of the modern church's growing pains. I, for one, love it. Stability is for the Pharisees.

[@frankspence8723]

Stability is for the Pharisees.

[@krishubbell5380]

Thank you for this. I am not having a crisis of faith but I was having doubt in the organization. This helped remind me and put into perspective the need for the organization of the church in our development and personal path to become more like Christ. We can’t learn patience if our patience is never tested. We can’t learn long suffering if we never suffer. I had come to this conclusion a while ago but had forgotten. Thanks for the reminder that this is the “field that comes with the treasure”.

[@jennytaylor3203]

I really love this. Terryl has a way of clarifying things that gives me a lot of peace.

[@erinr2496]

This will forever affect my testimony for the good. Thank you for the work of all 3 of these individuals.

[@jordanchristensen3969]

Beautiful, insightful, encouraging thoughts! Thank you Tim, Aubrey and Terryl

[@Sayheybrother8]

Sunday meetings might not be the apex of a true disciples life. Wow! This is great stuff. Thanks

[@michaelrossel1161]

Gold! Massive props to the ongoing efforts of Faith Matters Foundation...so many top-notch people bringin' it strong!

[@dannstephenson1247]

I appreciated every minute of this.

[@davidfrey5654]

Wow! I’m going to buy this book for me, a few friends and church leaders. The whole idea that “fire” is the Holy Ghost, which manifests itself in love and that engulfing the whole world is just amazing. And so many other amazing insights.

[@varinalarson]

Thank God for.the Givens’

[@leem3299]

May those who choose to go back to church, and those who choose something else have peace. If you usually feel drained after church, and covid has been a relief, I won't call you lazy or tell you you're selfish if you choose something uplifting or restful instead. Especially if you battle chronic anxiety or depression, you do not need yet more struggles to make you stronger, you need rest and healing. If you usually leave church glad you went, and you choose to go back, that's great on both counts. Some people's anxiety/depression is helped by going to church. If that's you, then I'm extra happy you can go to church again. Let's respect people's choices and not presume we knew what's best for them. Mutual respect is important, and is vital for spirituality. Jesus elevated the concept of 'love others AS yourself' to the highest heights. We constantly have opportunities to cherish this and practice it - whether at church, grocery store, with family, at a soup kitchen, deciding where to contribute financially, et cetera. Self respect + respect for others = __________.

[@ggrace1133]

Yes! This! It’s discipleship 101.

[@realtomtomeny]

What a wonderful lesson here for me, about the social ritual that is Sunday School and other "ordinary" church meetings. How do we then live if we are so deeply soaked in the Spirit that every moment is within the Presence?

[@terrel_shumway]

I like being soaked in the Spirit. I don't need a burning bush every day, but the constant quiet comfort and assurance that God loves me is nice. I love to acknowledge the tiny miracles I experience every day.

[@ggrace1133]

We can all gain from being uncomfortable at times so we can learn empathy and compassion for those who think outside our echo chambers, and thus make a choice to seek being less a part of the problem of model clonehood and more a part of opening our hearts to one and all. The Savior’s heart was open and so full of love that sinners walked away inspired, not downtrodden. Jesus meets us wherever our levels are and lifts us through love and wisdom. He doesn’t shut down or shut out. If our cultural norms do these things, it shows us what we lack yet and need to improve upon.

[@ericroberts2257]

"We believe that God just gave His Authority to some bumpkin who lives next door to me, and is God's authorized agent, and will stand by him unless he explicitly engages in unrighteousness, hurtful behavior." That's the field that comes with the treasure! I just don't see any alternative paradigm in which that is going to be the case. From the beginning, God declared that preeminent in this plan is going to be your agency - your capacity to harm and hurt each other. And that's just part of the cost. The church has incomparable treasures. Mormon's at their best are the most wonderful saints you'll ever rub shoulders wit. The doctrines of the Restoration are the most glorious and generous and beautiful in the history of religious thought, but you gotta buy a big, muddy, messy field in order to get the treasure. There isn't any other way to avoid the collateral damage that comes with the Gospel at it's best." "Either everything or nothing must depend on human agency, and if everything,who can set the bounds?"

[@ariannarees6216]

The only pushback I have on this is his comment about spirituality and meeting God in Nature as a pseudo spirituality. Joseph Smith met God the Father and Christ in a grove of trees. There was no religious experience related to his many early experiences.

[@Sayheybrother8]

I agree. Teryl seemed to be intimating that it is the social interaction that completes the religious experience. Thoughts?

[@charliejones8909]

In an answer to the title question to which one do you covenant all you have and even your life? The church. You pledge loyalty to the church, not the gospel.

[@mikefanofmovies]

We are still victims to the adversary, vulnerable as prey chased by a roaring lion as it is written. Yet satan is not the Lion of Judah, and is a defeated foe. How important it is to have the Victorious One as God! YahuShua, whom you call Jesus, is the True Church. "Thus says the Lord: Again I say to you, My church has no walls, and is called by no other name except the name The Father has given Me. Its members are of one mind and one spirit, of one love, one flock with one Shepherd, a people set apart who keep The Commandments of The Father and remain faithful to The Son, striving always to walk in My ways. For those who truly know Me dwell in Me, and I in them. For they are Mine, even as I am theirs also - My body, My bride. Therefore woe to any church of men, who claims to be the true church and remnant. Woe, I say to them. For they have placed themselves in the seat of The Father, and therefore remain under God’s judgment. For none walk according to the Truth, not one accepts Me as I truly am; all have gone astray, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men. Beloved, no one can come to Me, unless The Father who sent Me draws them to Me. And only those who accept Me as I truly am are of My body, for The Truth resides within them and is revealed by their works. Yes, even these stumble in their walk, for they are but flesh. Yet I am He who searches the Hearts and minds, I know My own; I know whose love is steadfast, Whose faith is unmoving... And this is the true church My people long for, the remnant Which now is and is yet to come... For it is not found outwardly in the world, But inwardly, in the temple of God... I am The Lord." Says the Lord. Who is God, what is His name and where is this Word above written? From His Volumes of Truth, the Word of the Lord spoken to this generation! "Thus says The Lord: Beloved, this Word, even every Volume to every Letter, is the Word of My glory, which I have put forth once again... A testament of My love and sacrifice, the announcement of My coming, a proclamation of truth, revelation of who I really am!... The Trumpet Call of God, so all those called and chosen may hear and come to Me in their proper time and season. Behold, it is also a strong correction for all those who have taken to themselves MY name and MY Word, to pollute it, a plumb line for this wicked generation! For this Word is a waving banner, an ensign to all nations!... A trumpet of alarm and war, the sound of recompense and judgment, which shall soon fall upon every nation! For I AM WHO I AM!... The Only Begotten of The Father! The One True God and Savior! The Mashiach!... YAHUSHUA-YAHUWAH!" Says YAHUSHUA-YAHUWAH! The only God called faithful and true, The Father and The Son are One! A warning to all of us who calls ourselves true christian, for we are under a great famine. "Thus says The Lord: I HAVE SENT FAMINE UPON THE LAND, even as in the day I caused a famine throughout the land of Israel. No, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of The Lord. As it was then, so it is this day also. From the churches of men and from the devout I have removed My hand, and from My people I have taken back My spirit. Lo, one full day has passed since I left them desolate, in severe thirst, with nothing at all to nourish them. I have left them in darkness, with no light to guide them, the still small voice silent. And what is this I hear among the churches of men and those devout in Israel, even among those who have recognized Mashiach in Israel? What voice do I hear lifted up to Heaven, crying out for guidance, longing for My presence and the Word of The Lord? What sound from the people has entered into the ears of The Holy One?! I HEAR NOTHING!... Not a word is spoken, no outcry is made! No repentance is offered, no plea is lifted up!... No one thirsts, not one hungers, not one of them Seeks The Light or grasps My robe, that I might guide Them through this darkness, through this desolate land!... None listen for My voice! Behold, I have spoken a multitude of words, a great number of speeches, Letter after Letter, Volume after Volume! Yet they will not eat of this bread, for they are already full! Nor will they drink from this cup, for they are drunken! Nor can they lift their heads to look upon this glory, for the weight of their sin remains upon them. They refuse to see, their eyes are blinded! They will not listen, their ears are unclean! They cover their faces and stop their ears! Foolish people, most wicked generation, I do not know you! Fill up then the full measure of your error, according to the perverse doctrines of your fathers! Bear the sin of your heresies, drink from the cup of your blasphemies, to the fullest! Yes, I hear your songs and your spiritual hymns, offered up to God... HE LOOKS NOTHING LIKE ME! I see your uplifted hands, and I hear all these prayers offered up in the name of Christ... HE LOOKS NOTHING LIKE ME! Perverse generation, the Day of The Lord is here; yes, I have declared it! In these very Letters and by My servants, I have made it known! Lo, through this man I have spoken it, for he does seek to honor Me... I HAVE BROUGHT GLORY TO MY NAME! Yet you have hated both Me and My Word! You have rejected the voice of The Living God, you have loathed the messengers of The Most High! Therefore shall I also reject you, for your ways are loathsome in My sight! I have left you in famine, and now I shall leave you utterly desolate. For I have called to My lambs; their hearts sing in anticipation. I have called to My sheep; they have embraced My voice. Yea, I have entered in and gathered them together. Behold, the harvest is separated, all is ready, the door is shut. I have but to call out, and the first election shall pass from your sight, and the gate shall be shut. For the door is shut already, the time has passed; no more shall pass through. I tell you the truth, you have done this! You have decided, your decision is made! Yes, YOU have shut the door to ME!... Therefore is it also shut to you... And it shall not be opened again Until you breathe your last, testifying to the Name of Glory and Him crucified, Until the time I open it anew... Behold, I shall open the gates of the city And the dead shall pass through, The martyrs of The Lord lifted up to glory!" Says the Lord. A famine because we shut the door to Him! Yet we gladly open it to the other messiah. Behold, the Bridegoom is coming! Go out to meet Him! For the Volumes of Truth is the trumpet call of God! And great is His sorrow brothers and sisters, for we all are His children yet in the end many will perish, this at their/our own request Thus says the Lord: "The heart of The Lord your God is very heavy. The heart of The Lord is enraged, and is very heavy. The sorrow of The Lord is deep and infinite. My people, let it be known to you, I take no pleasure at all in what I must do, in what must be done - NO PLEASURE AT ALL! Says The Lord. As My hand draws back, blood pours down! As I strike the earth in My anger, My tears run down! As famine spreads forth across the land, My heart is rent inside Me over the hardness of men’s hearts! As My face fills with the heat of My fury, My eyes are set ablaze with fire over that which I see! My tears run down, My blood pours down. As My own servants turn from Me and run, as My own beloved, whom I have called sons and daughters, turn and fight against Me, as My own body betrays Me, My blood pours down, My tears run down. As the nations come together and bind My hands and My feet, My tears run down... As they bruise Me and spit in My eyes, While mocking Me, My tears run down... As they pierce My side, My blood and Tears run down together!... As My own people drive in the nails still, I am risen up from My place with My arms Spread apart, waiting to receive them! My blood runs down, the tears run down... OH MY PEOPLE, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?! Hard generation! Sleeping children! Even My own fall asleep, unable to watch with Me for one hour; their hearts hardened, unwilling to weep with Me in this last hour. Do you not understand My sorrows, little flock? They refuse to be healed! Therefore, I must destroy them!... My blood runs down, and they refuse it! My tears fall like rain upon the nations, yet they will not lift their head, nor do they hold out their tongue to drink it! Where have all My children gone?! They choose death! THEY CHOOSE DEATH! And at the last day, they shall surely receive it; they shall taste of it to the fullest! Therefore do My tears run down; therefore do the rivers run like death through the waste places. Beloved, they heap up death, only to throw themselves upon the heap! Lo, they have made their covenant with death, and with the grave they are in agreement! They burn candles and make sacrifices to other gods; yea, they bow down to them! Behold, they shall be slaughtered and burned together!... The whole field is diseased, every leaf is blighted and withers, every stalk is rotten even to the roots! It must be purged and burned with fire! Therefore do My tears run down; therefore does My sorrow continue on, forever. The wound is incurable! Therefore My love will weep, and My heart will wail, forever. Have you not read My words, little flock? Are your ears yet dull in hearing? Yet My words shall not return void. For the beasts of the earth languish, and the creatures of flight fail to soar, for they know what is coming. Lo, I have nourished and brought forth young children to weep in your places, for you were unwilling."

[@TenthWardJenny]

You cannot serve, protect, and validate LGBT while at the same time endorsing and funding organizations with political arms dedicated to legislating laws that criminalize them. One of the most frustrating parts of this, is how little members know about how tithing funds are actually spent and against whom. Church members feel persecuted by others and wonder why? Not knowing how and whom the Church has attacked politically.