Is the Hunger Games a good game?

[@davidedelli7812]

Statistics and mid 2000s fiction? You got yourself a subscriber. I look forwards to see more extremely detailed analysis of the most unhinged concepts around.

[@Nqdpdqb]

Is the fiction from the middle of the 2000s or is the fiction from the middle of the 2000s mid? Yes. Yes, it is.

[@Grif_on96]

This is the most unexpected shiping of fanfiction and statistics discipline . But comparing of classic cornucopia and big resources spread over whole arena is a great ! It finnally clicked in my brain , why minecraft hunger games quite often requires gamemaker interuprion (final automatic timer teleports and lock players into center of arena) while bed wars are mostly always finishes in great final natural battle (bad wars also have such final timer , but it mostly always didn't required due to more wise resource spread) .

[@dog-ez2nu]

Fortnite, PUBG and the original Battle Royale movie tbh, apply this idea too - and are thus just make for more entertaining games.

[@somdudewillson]

A thought: if gamemaker intervention is kept as a last resort, it will also become a telltale indicator of losing control - which seems really rather bad. If gamemaker intervention is an expected cause of a few deaths, however, "last resort" killings will be immensely more likely to be lost in the noise, avoiding communicating a loss of control to the viewers.

[@000Dragon50000]

That's probably how they arrived at that one, yeah. The other changes suggested all make plenty of sense as improvements tho.

[@bumblegoot1139]

This. The Hunger Games aren’t designed to be an actually effective game; they are propaganda designed to intimidate the populous into believing they have no power over their government. The entire point of the games is that they convey the idea that there is very little engineered conflict, (even as the entire environment is completely fake) which makes the interactions of the players feel more personal, which makes the game more divisive and effective at keeping the people at each other’s throats.

[@marenjones6665]

I would suggest semi-randomized events integrated into the game for the whole duration, including just weird stuff. If the GM is known to be an unpredictable player, the audience will likely not be able to tell the difference between a play for power and something pulled from a randomized table.

[@drac3650]

I like how this one comment destroys 25 minutes of rambling

[@swinzy0]

@@drac3650 This comment destroys, one point, only one, the rest of the points are very reasonable and good improvements.

[@amberhide04]

wow this is evil i love it

[@r.connor9280]

Math often is a dark and forbidden art Also this puts a twist on their favorite phrase 'May the odds ever be in your favor' since the game is rigged from the start

[@MrDeath2iPod]

Holy crap, thats some grade A graphics and it shows that you guys put a lot of time into the animations and the script. 10/10 would watch again!

[@Nathouuuutheone]

In recent years, there's been amazing open source tools made specifically for displaying mathematical constructs and smoothly transitioning between them. I think the big one right now is Manim initiated by Grant Sanderson (3 blue 1 brown), and has a big community of developers helping out. It still takes effort to use, and I definitely would applaud the polish and dedication of this channel's creator, but I wanted to share some context. (I'm not sure this channel uses Manim, it's just a guess)

[@DariaChaplin]

you're saying the cornucopia is bad DURING THANKSGIVING MONTH? jail 🚨 (i loved: the journey of this video, the incredible visualizations that i have no idea how you made, the setup and explanation of the simulation, and of course the conclusion)

[@SonorianBnS]

poor 19. imagine getting chosen for the hunger games and they start you in the middle of a fucking lake

[@Coocoocrazy3]

Everyone in the 75th hunger games: …

[@JinxRavinstill2]

​@@Coocoocrazy3 They all had experience it's not the same 😅

[@Phlorochyll]

or 9 having to clear a goddamn mountain range

[@emmamalkin860]

minecraft ass spawn point

[@itspribanerjee]

omg yes

[@badenbaden1372]

"don't build the torment nexus" CRINGE "I could build a better torment nexus" BASED

[@Wiggly38]

"I will CONSTRUCT the torment nexus" BASE64

[@fntthesmth423]

The way you sound like you're steadily losing your mind the whole time really adds a lot to this

[@jillianscharf437]

exactly what I was thinking 😆

[@nahometesfay1112]

But using such an intense tone while describing the simulation for several minutes is exhausting. I wish there was a bigger drop in intensity when the infinite hunger games began and a slower build up.

[@bubbasully15]

@@nahometesfay1112 Same for me. I was really interested in the Infinite Hunger Games, but I just couldn’t do more than 2 minutes at that intensity. It’s too bad, because those two minutes were a great look into techniques of game design.

[@Shanenap]

Got old very fast

[@ameliac3560]

on a narrative scale, i love that the hunger games are poorly designed. you said it yourself, the games are less about good game design and fairness, and more about punishment. the hunger games are the capital’s ultimate show of power over the districts, and the unfairness stews division within the districts, keeping them from unifying. it’s the perfect rigged reality tv program. how could you ever sympathize with your fellow man in the districts when they continually have the advantage in the hunger games, and thus, in life?

[@Alemani29]

The hunger games design also allows for underdog wins from lower districts from time to time, making them have a bit of hope and something to live for, thus not revolting because they have nothing to lose

[@spiceyicey]

the hunger games was even originally just a bunch of starving people in a room, rather than the large arena it is by katniss's time. it only beame entertainment because snow favoured a contestant and wanted to improve his social status

[@goldengolem4670]

Except the entire thing falls apart in about 2 seconds realistically

[@PineappleLiar]

I also like how all of the overpowered/unfair attributes of the og hunger games can be sourced back to how ‘careers’ are given favoritism as the Capital’s favorite districts. The Cornucopia and team strategies? Careers are the ones with more pre-game relationships to create teams around, and the training to take advantage of the Cornucopia’s assets. Sponsors and player score? Careers are the ones with training to get high player scores, and also the funds to afford sponsors when they come around. The main downside of the books is that due to the underdog nature of the story it really undersells just how much resource disparity would screw over all the non-Career contestants. If you want to see how that goes looks at the W-L on competitions in Survivor Fiji, where the teams were split between haves and have-nots (for those who won’t bother, of the 13 competitions played the have-nots won exactly one of them).

[@lilcrabcrab]

this is true but the point of the video is also that it's poorly designed for the punishment/entertainment purpose as well. the main critique of the games isn't even that it's unfair (in fact, her suggestion actually allows for more rigging with the initial placements as demonstrated), it's that it's not optimised for entertainment

[@maxchetwin6956]

Great video! Would love a follow up with more unique tributes who have levels of skill using different weapons or fighting on different terrain

[@sebastiaomendonca1477]

Ironically, but perhaps not surprisingly, most measures to improve the Hunger Games suggested in the video are something game developers have stumbled upon through trial and error in the battle royale genre.

[@BellPeppermint]

Big fan of theory crafting and assigning numbers+definitions towards plot mechanics in the stories I enjoy. Video gave me a new way to approach this interest. Amazing presentation in visuals, script and emotion. Genuinely good video.

[@ceru5675]

Oh. I thought this was a regular video essay but this is a fanfic on the pov of an aspiring gamemaker. Bravo.

[@izzet513]

Surprised this didn’t dig into battle royale video games at all, since they’ve put a lot of work into answering many of these questions as well

[@StargazingSketcher]

When it got to that part about the cornucopia and having the better items in the middle and having everyone start on the outside and move inward, I was like, "Oh, so Apex." Apex even has the edge of the arena get smaller as time goes on, resulting in the last 2 teams being pretty much on top of one another by the end. As that's the only BR game I've played, dunno if the others in the genre work like this though.

[@thatonepossum5766]

@@StargazingSketcher most battle royals (at least that I’ve seen) have a “safe zone” like the one you mentioned. There was a while in Fortnite where you could actually get the entire map covered in the storm (the damaging field outside the safe zone) if you played it out long enough!

[@Cebollaverde]

Where we droppin boys?

[@xaephia]

Some extraction shooters work this way as well! Hunt: Showdown, for example, spawns every group on the outside of the map, and has a couple very large objectives with a series of smaller ones leading up to them - players fight over the smaller ones before the big showdown, and then there's the added drama of "will they make it out alive?" It ends up being great pacing, and gives players a reason to continue diving deeper into the map instead of avoiding combat :)

[@XenithShadow]

Ah that's disappointing. As there is evidence of why battle royals (hunger games) make for sub optimal spectator sports. This was shown in one of the first pubg tournaments where a guy literally took a boat back to the spawn island, infinitely tanking the "storm". They did this as the optimal winning strategy in a "survival game" is minimising interactions with other players as that can lead to death and generally givess little to no benefits to the attackers.

[@gandeldalf]

This is like comparing Minecraft Hunger Games and Minecraft UHC and I absolutely love that I never thought about how much game design thought there can be for such game and how different of fun it can give to a player

[@ryanammenheuser4788]

Always wondered why I loved watching UHCs way back in the day but Hunger Games vids never did it for me

[@fanofstuff1607]

I love this, but minor critiques: They want the careers to win, which the current system is more likely to result in since they get access to most of the cornucopia and are most likely to survive the bloodbath. This adds enough randomness that that is almost pure chance now. You also likely need to make a case for why prolonged fighting would be more entertaining and more likely to quell rebellion than an overwhelming bloodbath. And with teaming now a disadvantage, that might remove a lot of the entertainment value the games give. And since more of the players live longer, more will be humanized and thus have more chance of spurring rebellion. That’s another advantage of the careers having an advantage: you choose who to humanize. It’s also why Seneca got killed: he let Katniss and Rue and Peeta be humanized as well.

[@ADavidJohnson]

I was thinking that having the bloodbath at the beginning offers a lot of good footage to re-play and analyze during slow moments. “Here’s what they should have done”, etc. And like you’re saying, being able to control empathy and narratives is important, therefore having a whole bunch of brutal interactions at the beginning lets you demonize someone as a monster later when you want them rooted against or add a music swell and backstory to make their violence noble and triumphant.

[@jameswright3067]

This and the fact that it gives brand new betting odds for the games to drum up money

[@mattc3581]

The teaming up of the careers is an interesting artefact of the game setup. You would think that politically the capitol would want to steer well clear of letting the districts think that by teaming up they can overcome all opposition, they want less revolt not more. However perhaps the fact that the team are ultimately forced to betray each other is a more valuable political lesson. In that light, allowing Katniss and Peter to win as a team was perhaps more of a serious error than Seneca realised, it undermined the most important lesson of the games. I do think there are some glaring problems with the game dynamics though. I don't remember any good reason why the pledges from higher districts wouldn't be forming teams. It seems like it would be even more important to them than it is for the careers. I can't believe Katniss and Rue were that unusual in wanting to work together rather than kill each other, even in just this games we see at least four pledges that interact with Katniss without wanting to fight her. Honestly they should have been trying to put a team together well before they even got in the arena. Also the suggestion that the single players win often enough for there to be a male and female living winner from each district at the time of the 75th games is preposterous. The careers team should be winning almost every games, a single player being able to beat out the team, even if in-fighting has started, would be a freak occurrence. The only way this could happen is if the GM is going very heavy handed in helping kill off the careers.

[@volodymyrboitchouk]

​@@mattc3581 i actually wouldnt be surprised if they did occasionally make sure that the careers lost. Its beneficial for the careers to win more often than not, but you dont want them to always win because they might get it in their heads that they can beat the capital as well as its game. They occasionally need to be reminded of their own mortality and that they are also metely playthings for the capital. At the same time, you probably want each district to have a male and female winner as well. The h8ngwr games are as much about giving hope as taking it away. Part of the propaganda is that, if you play your part, you too might be a winner and proffit from the capital's system. Precisely the kind of "hope" the capital would want people in the districts to have.

[@mattc3581]

@@volodymyrboitchouk The maths doesn't math though. Even if the careers are only winning 50% of the games then you still have say 18 other distinct district/gender results you need, which would therefore take 36 years absolute minimum. Realistically unless a large number of the games are rigged from start to finish to get a desired winner then getting that distribution is going to take way longer, even hitting all those possibilities in twice that minimum time would be statistically almost zero chance of happening. Needless to say, even if you got impossibly lucky and hit that distribution of winners in only 60 years then you'd have some of those winners in their 60s-70s by the time of the 75th games and we didn't really see many competitors that were beyond say 30-40.

[@byeguyssry]

I think you're overlooking arguably the most important thing in game design: the target audience. The Hunger Games is not made for viewers like you and me. They are made for Capitol citizens and District citizens, with two very different goals in mind. A decent part of this video talks about how the Cornucopia is a bad idea. However, do you really think that Capitol citizens are willing to sit through half an hour of sporadic fights with sticks? I doubt so. I'm pretty sure the average Capitol citizen watches fervently throughout the Cornucopia bloodbath, then leaves it on in the background and only really pays attention when something interesting happens. I'd wager that one extreme fight is more memorable to the average Capitol citizen than multiple fights. On the District front, there are two concerns. One is to keep the winner of the Games in line, and one is to keep the others in the Districts in line. Pertaining to the winner of the Games, I'd logically assume that if you enter and survive the Cornucopia, you're more likely to win. This means that the people who have been exposed to bloodshed right at the start of the game are the most likely to win. These are also likely the Careers, who the Gamemakers would like to win, because there's no way a Career would start a revolution like Katniss ended up doing because they view winning the Games as a privilege, a badge of honor. Which also means the Gamemakers would very much like to make teaming strong. But even if the winner isn't a Career, if he went to the Cornucopia, he's likely gonna be traumatized or desensitized to death. The nightmare scenario here is that the winner has barely any blood on his hands - which, hey look, is that Katniss? Who only ever killed in self-defense - and is likely more composed to actually start a revolution and look a gift horse (in this case, one's own life) in its mouth. Pertaining to those watching from the Districts, the more you engineer specific outcomes, the more likely it is that someone spots it. And the citizens of a District are NOT gonna like it when the game is rigged against them. When their tributes die in the Cornucopia, they can get angry at the District that killed them. But when the game is rigged, they would more likely get mad at the Gamemakers. That said, yes why are there so many deaths at the Gamemakers' hands

[@Alemani29]

Exactly this!!

[@deathdy1509]

Yeah, Katniss mentions in the first book that whenever the Gamemakers interfere too or even too little much, the Games are not well recieved. An example is Annie Cresta's Games, the midway point of the Game a dam broke due to Gamemaker's triggering an earthquake and it caused the entire arena to flood. Because Annie was from District 4 (the aquatic district) and her partner was already dead, she won just because she managed to outswim the others. Another example is when there was a Games when the tributes were in a frozen tundra, and the tributes just huddled in balls the entire time. I think there has to be a balance, like too much or too little interference is bad.

[@JochCool]

There are so many Gamemaker intervention deaths because the Games are a propaganda tool, not entertainment. It shows that if you do something that the Capitol likes you get gifts (from sponsors), and if you do something the Capitol does not like, you die.

[@jameswright3067]

@@deathdy1509in the book Katniss says nobody knows if the earthquake was natural or not.

[@jameswright3067]

@@JochCool yeah intervention looks cool to the capital and is a threat to the districts

[@KerbalRocketry]

I think ultimately your design forgets why the cornucopia is so beloved, most people don't watch the whole games they watch the ceremony and the opening hours then go on with their lives, we in the capital must have better things to be doing than watch so nobodies wander through the forest

[@tbotalpha8133]

Yeah, they talk up the idea of exponential decay, but forget that a multi-day contest like this would also suffer an exponential decay in viewership. A whole lot of people watching at the start, then a big falloff after the initial brawl. Then a steady, medium level of engagement through the middle of the games, as people check in occasionally or watch highlight reels. Then another big spike at the end, as people want to see the final showdown live, and learn who the winner is.

[@jrgrimm6091]

This is why feasts are a thing. To draw in tributes to boost viewership and interest

[@VoIcanoman]

@@tbotalpha8133 Yeah, but the bloodbath at the Cornucopia doesn't do anything to counteract the exponential decay in viewership. It reinforces it! If the goal is to keep people watching, you do want an intense beginning with some good, violent deaths...but only a few - 6, max (but most years, 3 or 4). Then, you want to give viewers the expectation that anything can happen at any time...give them a reason to tune in. A design that reduces the bloodbath at the beginning also favors this end, because if tributes knew that going for some loot at the beginning wasn't so deadly, more would do it, acquiring weapons and supplies that would give them the opportunity to get creative, allowing for more intense and interesting interactions down the road. However, there are other considerations here besides viewership. The main purpose of the Games is turning districts against each other. They don't want a fair fight...they want the opposite, hence why they're sending 12 year-olds from poor districts against 17 year-olds who've been training for years. Allowing weak contestants the chance to get stronger (by reducing the risk of resource acquisition in the first few minutes of the game) would make Capitol citizens happier and more likely to watch, but it would also tend to create more parity amongst contestants, and thus reduce the fundamental inequity which serves to keep the districts divided, while also increasing the chances that a hero could rise from a poor district and triumph (as Katniss did), creating a real risk of revolution. So the solution is to create a veneer of fairness to satisfy the Capitol consumer, but which would never fool someone from the districts. And that's exactly what they did.

[@deathdy1509]

I'm pretty sure the Games are mandatory viewing, like you must watch it.

[@cjcolehour2778]

@@deathdy1509 that's in the districts, not the capital.

[@veryvivid]

I will say, the revised cornucopia works from a game perspective, but a second priority for the game makers is *good tv* if you look at view counts for any episodic series, the first episode is ALWAYS the most viewed section, and the cornucopia is designed specifically to account for this opening moment where the absolute most viewers are guaranteed. it doesn't matter if the rest of the show is well paced with a few interesting moments each day if during the first few moments of the first episode, the audience is bored because nothing is happening. you need a big opening moment in order to keep the viewers' attention, otherwise, they just won't bother continuing to watch and will kill the viewership overall.

[@toast1890]

I mean considering the fact that, if I remember correctly, everyone (at least in the districts) is forced to watch the games this wouldn't be the biggest issue. But still, you do have a point.

[@rustery8483]

The problem is that the hunger games cornucopia is supposed to cull the numbers quickly and set a very clear advantage or ‘game-state’ for the rest of the hunger games to follow. It’s less interesting when everyone is spread out and you have many screens with the action broken up but having an explosive start and quickly seeing if your team gets the big early lead is useful for this type of game. The point of it being the hunger games is to quite literally forage and get resources but with look spread out and being a plethora makes it far less contested to get daily provisions. The cornucopia sets who has the abundance of resources and makes retaking it a priority for anyone or any field that doesn’t have much good food resources available. We just follow someone who can survive out in the wilderness but another district’s person might not be so lucky to know what and how to hunt.

[@Grizabeebles]

Agreed. The Games are set out this way, in part, because "movies are about making movies" -- the idea of a team behind the scenes managing a live event is meant to highlight to the viewer that the Hunger Games is a staged drama and a public execution because its being "managed" like the annual Oscar awards. I wonder how a game designer might make the Hunger Games work better as a propaganda piece rather than as a "good" game: Showing the Districts that even their children will form packs and turn on each other in order to be the last one standing.

[@mattc3581]

@@Grizabeebles The team of careers being able to monopolise and retain most of the resources seems really bad for generating any interesting interplay. It gives them the power and comfort to foray for lone survivors at will with no real pressure to hunt or gather other resources, and seems like a huge advantage that should mean one of them wins almost every time. The seeming failure of the other pledges to team up in any way just makes defending it almost trivial. A better scenario would be to perhaps have an initial smaller supply to generate a fight at the start then have daily supply drops in locations decided by the GM. These would obviously help to promote timely battles by bringing pledges together. The distance from the initial cornucopia and from the locations of the players, combined with the amount of warning time before the drop, could be used to even the playing field somewhat. Helping weaker pledges get access to resources and weapons would mean the career team wouldn't have everything their own way and make the final result much more unpredictable.

[@Grizabeebles]

@@mattc3581 -- I see what you're saying, but the Hunger Games are also a symbolic renactment of a civil war. The Careers mostly come from Districts that support Capitol rule. Showing them to be a 'natural' team with all the advantages in terms of training and materiél that destroys the other Districts individually and in turn while the Captiol orchestrates the entire "war" from safely out of harm's way is also part of the "message" of the games. That's why the Games can't be structured as a PvE challenge or a true cooperative game and why the Captiol *must* intervene to prevent a double-suicide by the final two tributes.

[@Stephen-Fox]

Subtle discussion of single elimination tournament design before a hard pivot into the underpinnings of needs based game AI. All via a narrative lense. Neat.

[@disabledchatzen5276]

This is a description of life itself.

[@nonya1366]

"So we have a new gamemaster, how are they doing?" "I don't know, let me check." ... "This year's hunger games is going to be interesting."

[@Charlotte-snwcn]

I agree with the original design actually. One of the biggest parts of any event is the exciting start, and I feel like if we’re designing a show that happens every year, they have to have a massive event at the start. That’s when the most people would be tuning in to watch. An event like this should have a massive fight at the start, a handful of big fights and deaths as the week progresses, and hopefully an intense struggle for the final survivors. Whereas your model would make an event of releasing people into the wild. I doubt people would be raving to watch the hunger games if it didn’t start with a bloodbath every year. When it comes to designing a fair and balanced game, your method would be better because it would allow for more player control of the events that follow, but the capital wouldn’t care about that. The whole point of the games is a symbol of control, why would they care if the game is balanced or fair? The top district all form alliances before the event happens anyways, and they train their whole lives for the event. They want to watch those top fighters slaughter everyone at the start, and their alliances mean that the strongest players have control of the biggest source of food. Meaning that the players who ran away from the cornucopia are now underdogs having to fight for their lives in the wilderness, while the allied players just have to sit and wait for them to fight for the food in the cornucopia. The underdogs would be the only ones truly fighting against the elements, and that will make them desperate to fight for the resources in the center. The way they design the game would make a team of strong players who could betray each other, and a handful of underdogs that people can root for. It would have a massive fight at the start, and because people are invested in the under dogs, would keep people interested throughout the week of the show. I fail to see how your version would be a better show of control and brutality, or how it would be better for ratings. But it would be a lot more balanced and engaging as a player.

[@notme8232]

Maybe they could have several clusters of players on the outskirts, so there can still be big fights at the start, but those fights would be done with bad weapons, allowing many losers to still be factors in later battles.

[@shroomer3867]

Solution, allow the cornucopia beginning encounter to happen, players are allowed to look at what items are available in the center, they can fight as usual, but after around 1-2 minutes of the fight and bloobath a sleeping gas is released as a glass dome catches the players inside and anyone who ran instead is automatically tranquilized. Then afterwards those setbacks are removed but everyone continues on the edges of the map. The loot gathered from the center is kept on them and maybe the radius of the arena is reduced by the amount of people lelft.

[@Charlotte-snwcn]

@@shroomer3867 I think that's too complicated for viewers at home, there should still be a veil of player agency in the games, and this would also encourage more players to run. If you get a second start on the outskirts then why engage with the fight at the start? Statistically that's the most dangerous, and if you're playing purely to win, you are no longer punished for running because you start again anyways. There isn't a real need to establish control of the food in the center of the map if everyone gets sent back to the edges as well. Plus, it forms a random break in the action on the first day. I think the og cornucopia plan still takes the cake

[@Charlotte-snwcn]

@@notme8232 maybe, but how could they choose who to be on the outskirts? Theoretically the game has to be equal for every district. I doubt anyone would be happy to hear that their district is considered low tier. Plus, with the og model there's a chance that a higher district could win that brawl. Your model would have massive disadvantage for players who don't get a chance to grab at some of the resources in the center, and it would deny the largest bloodbath possible.

[@notme8232]

@@Charlotte-snwcn You misunderstand me. Everyone is on the outskirts, they're just clumped together in different parts of the arena (as opposed to this video's equally spaced model). The clumps are determined at the Gamemakers' whims for balance purposes.

[@cycloneabsol9405]

I love how this started as a game design analysis but quickly became a full in-universe descent into madness

[@yurisei6732]

I think you need the initial bloodbath of the cornucopia because the hunger games wouldn't really be gripping television. It's routine, it's the olympics. It happens every year, it's always kinda the same thing, and 99% of the time, people aren't fighting each other. A slower start would be more suitable for district viewers who are invested in seeing their people survive, but for the capitol audience, the draw is the pre-game pageantry leading into a dramatic opening ceremony. Not having the cornucopia means early game momentum is low, both because players aren't encountering each other often and because there's a lot less incentive to play risky. The ideal I think is having an initial slaughter, then a rush to the edges and a gradual creep back to the center. That way, you're starting the game off with a bang, and the next day everyone's talking about that slaughter, which naturally turns into talk of the survivors and who they're interested in seeing encounter each other. By starting at the edge, there's less for viewers to talk about day 1, which means less of an office narrative going into day 2. What I'd do is increase the number of contestants to 36 so that a more useful amount would survive day 1, still have a starting cornucopia but only featuring melee weapons, no resources or ranged weapons, then spread resources and ranged weapons around the edges. That way, you still get a decent opening bloodbath where the most proficient fighters establish their dominance, but people who then stay in the center are at a disadvantage because they have limited access to food and shelter, and they're sitting ducks for anyone who finds a bow. Plus then instead of having like 8 strong fighters in the game, which makes the end result way too predictable, most of those will eliminate themselves day 1, giving the weaker people who run away first a better chance.

[@Basshead004]

If I ever become a dystopian dictator, I'm hiring you as my spectacle organizer.

[@MovieMakerFanVersion]

"The Hunger Games is fine!" at the end got me This video also assumes that the Capitol *wants* there to be a relatively equal distribution of Victors- or a mostly equal chance for a weaker/smaller/poorer Tribute to beat out the stronger/bigger/richer Tribute, which I think is a fallacious design choice made here! With the (known) distribution of Victors, we can assume that the Capitol likely favors the Tributes from One and Two, and doesn't really admire the Tributes from Ten, Eleven, and Twelve. It's very likely that the element of the bloodbath in the later eras of the Games (1st Quell onwards) was a result of wanting to guarantee stronger Tributes eliminating weaker Tributes and creating difficult fights between the remaining (strong) Tributes, which are routinely shown to be from One, Two, and Four (in the books at least) and rarely from the outlying Districts (like Peeta and Thresh). Also, we know from Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes that the earliest Games look awfully similar to the most recent ones- only bigger, grander, and more sophisticated. Also, the Capitol's perception of outer Districts like Twelve is very negative in terms of Tributes (even outside of the general prejudice Capitolites have against District people) meanwhile Two is very highly praised as being the most similar to the Capitol, given the Plinth family's status. It's not unlikely that after the Games solidified their existence for the Capitol that it really started being rigged against certain Districts, as a means of punishing them further: Twelve was the home of at least one conspiracy against the Capitol during BOSAS, and that alone would warrant the Capitol to rig any future Games against that District. Which works, until Haymitch comes along and ends up winning by using the forcefield, which was unintentional on the part of the Gamemaker given the consequences faced by Haymitch within the month he was crowned Victor. And furthermore, Twelve ceases to have any other Victor until the 74th when Katniss and Peeta cheat/defy the Capitol to win. It wouldn't be out of the question that had Snow gone to Seven or Three or even One and found such a conspiracy that he'd be willing to set up the Games against any of those particular Districts either. While many people claim that the Reaping is what's rigged about the Games, and they're not entirely *wrong*, I do think that the actual rigging happens in the Games themselves- after all, we're told that a recent Games had a Tribute from Six who ended up cannibalizing his victims and had to be caught in an avalanche (heavily implied to be Gamemaker Intervention). Why couldn't an Arena or Intervention be staged to actively prevent a Tribute from Twelve from winning? Anyways, all this to say: yeah, this simulation and whatnot is great work- but it's assuming something that we can't necessarily assume to be true: that the Games are at all fair when accounting for basic statistics.

[@mattc3581]

Lots of good points. Even our own TV programmes we know are almost entirely about the show and not the integrity of the event. If a TV show or quiz ever shows you the 'draw' for the matches then you can be assured that was the matches they worked long and hard deciding how to pair up, the chance of there being any actual random draw at any point is pretty much zero. That's before you get to the random events/questions for that show having been specifically tailored to the teams taking part to get the result the producer wants. The motivations in the hunger games seem a little confusing. At times the overriding concern seems to be making the best show for the audience. That goes against the true concern supposedly being the political and social control of the districts. I honestly don't think it matters that much who wins, losing only one child instead of two children to the games is hardly a victory for a district, especially if the winner returns so traumatised anyway. As such maybe the message works the same whatever happens and the games can just be run to make the best show anyway. Ultimately the districts will still effectively lose all those children and in the process will be turned against each other. Even the careers who team up will eventually have to stab each other in the back, a powerful message that the districts can't trust each other to work together against a common enemy?

[@lonewolfM16]

To be fair their assumption is not that the game should be balanced to give equal chances of winning, they explicitly call out using placement to ensure powerful tributes aren't matched up against others right away for example Ala seeded tournaments, or positioning teams apart. They seem to assume only that the game is intended to appear fair, or at least not too rigged, from the outside. They could still position things to give careers a higher chance of winning they just want it to look like they win of their own merits. That might be a faulty assumption but it's more particular.

[@Shakesthewizard]

It's what I've always wanted from youtube - to watch a woman have a breakdown about compsci and game design.

[@mrcool2963]

Also don't forget to shrink the arena as time goes on to help closing the game !

[@Vernand1]

The game mechanics incentivize the players to steadily come closer to each other anyway. Attempts to artificially push players together is how most of the gamemaker intervention deaths occured.

[@wind_reader]

Alright, who gave the D&D player control of the hunger games?? But seriously, very interesting and compelling analysis! I recently rewatched the movies and was left with the sensation that the Hunger Games, as games purely, were not particularly interesting. Your improvements make a lot of sense tho! (it's lowkey funny how much more similar to games like Fortnite HG becomes with certain changes to the mechanics). Lastly, I have an idea to keep your model AND still use the Cornucopia as a mechanical element/symbol of the Capitol: save it for the late stage of the game and have it act like either a re-stock of high-value supplies, or like an "win immediately" token. When player count dwindles and encounters become less frequent, make a huge bougee Cornucopia emerge from the center of the arena (or another point of the map that's far away from players' current position). Stocked with better gear, medical supplies, and perhaps even a game-ending object/mechanic, the Cornupia should, I believe, tempt players to make a run for it trying to beat the others to the good stuff - moreover, there's the temptation that if a player is dying from dehydration, an infected wound, or starvation, they might want to "send it" and play the high risk/high reward move as they may already be dead. Anyways, sorry for yapping. This video scratched a very particular itch.

[@TierosIsBetter]

I love how you sound like you’re on the verge of insanity.

[@CrabQueen]

This devolved from game analysis in a book/movie series into maddness-induced statistics real quick and im all for it

[@crytracker]

this video has a criminally low view count, it’s really well thought out and entertaining

[@jowilson5581]

you are officially promoted to head gamemaker, i decree it. (this post takes place in a universe where after the ending of mockingjay the new society just recreates the values of the old one and they eventually get around to having The New Hunger Games so you'll be the runner of TNHG 2 and also i'm the president, hope this clarifies things)

[@zadarasimoleons1019]

"Well, I haven't hit the wall yet," he said into the trees. He knew the camera was somewhere, drones in the canopy and whatnot. "Right? That means I was probably placed on the Southern border, and directly to the North is the Center. And... Well, they've probably got Kan on the Northern border, aye? Make it interesting?" He rolled his eyes. That was for himself. Raiden continued North. He figured the Arena was pretty big this year; he could stand to make a little progress towards the center. He didn't mention it to the microphones. Later that evening, as the sun was beginning to fall in behind the canopy, obscuring more light than Raiden felt comfortable fighting in, he heard, somewhere beyond the brush where he couldn't quite see... "Four!" Ah, crap. He'd been doing well not to get into anyone's way. Why'd they put Four so close? (They claimed the placements were random, but there had actually been several meetings about it, every year. Sometimes dozens, if the Game Makers really couldn't agree. Lots of late nights, but Raiden couldn't have known that.) It was obvious they planned the placements every year. They always tried to make their favorites more interesting. Somehow, he'd become one of their... Favorites. The thought made his throat run dry. "Four!" The shout came again, a little closer now. Shit, shit, shit. He grabbed for his club, a common weapon this early in the games, but not quite as good as his. He'd made it himself, a fist-sized stone tied to a thick and sturdy branch with a length of his torn clothes. Raiden supposed he'd gotten pretty lucky, all things considered. There were four 9's this year, and no one less than a 3, things were going to get pretty interesting. He just so happened to be the only 10. It was only because he'd gotten pissed off and shown his hand early. He still kicked himself for that. But it didn't change the fact that he was ready to eliminate this guy. Four had been nice to him. But Four was given a rating of 7. He had shaken his hand before they'd all been carted away, but he had to be eliminated. Raiden swallowed the dryness in his throat and gripped his club. He took a deep breath and said, "Mom, you should look away, now."

[@Sky-bx9mn]

2:50 Hm. I'm sure you're going to go very game mechanics with it. My first thought is: symbolism. The point of the games is to sell a narrative about rightful vengeance taken for the districts' rebellion, warn them against rebelling again, and encourage enthusiasm and belief in the capital's power, yeah? So why not have challenges in the games that symbolize the (real or propaganda-invented) harms caused by the rebellion, and have the beneficial items be symbols of the Capital's generosity and resources on which the districts depend?

[@michaelkindt3288]

Now you're thinking with the [propaganda]!

[@linkispink382]

i think it's so funny there's a very popular minecraft minigame on online servers called "survival games" that is based on the hunger games but does many of the changes you bring up in the first half of the video, like spreading out the items

[@lordpotashmallow2443]

this gamemode actually used to be called hunger games long long ago, but changed early on :)

[@thesenate1844]

I can imagine the capitol have tried all sorts of staring arrangements for the games in the 74 years, and mixes them uo to keep it interesting. Having all players start within sight of each other makes for a good show. To keep it entertaining for longer, you only have 24 players so there needs to be some PvE too

[@d4rk4x3l3]

"You're a psychopath. Hired." - President Snow

[@ninjii1236]

This is perfect: the dystopian horror of the hunger games comes from the optimization of the suffering of its contestants, and so looking at it as a failing stats model that could cost the designer their life, through the eyes of said designer, as they have a crisis over their inevitable succession is brilliant. The hunger games sucks because it creates celebrities out of people who have suffered at the hands of the system, and this video shows that perfectly. 10/10, no notes.

[@snekhuman]

this feels like the same set of design choices battle royale developers have gone through to make their games engaging

[@cewla3348]

"building a torment nexus" cool "better blueprints for the torment nexus" wonderful

[@likopinina6803]

very glad your excel video won the yt recomended, this type of media analysis is my favourite

[@c4nvm]

you're absolutely losing your mind and i love it

[@NovemberXXVII]

My headcanon is that the cornucopia is there precisely FOR the intimidation bit to work. Later in the games, there's a *chance* of someone from a poorer district winning to keep the masses feeling like they're in competition with the ruling class, but it's vital to the spectacle that there be at least ONE time when the superior training of the rich districts leads to some poor kid getting hacked to death in a head-on confrontation. Half of keeping people complacent is just terrorizing them with the reminder that they *could* face horrific violence.

[@bananaducc7918]

Unironicly the best SI hungergames fanfiction

[@Sky-bx9mn]

5:19 Oo okay your point about the exponential decay brings me to another thing that I think you're probably going to end up going into, but which ties into my other comment about including symbolism in the game design. So since the game as current is mostly just the district reps fighting each other, it doesn't show off a lot of the capital's power, right? Except when they intervene with the game as it gets further in, which feels more like messing with the game than like something that'll play well for viewers. So my initial thought was, what if you have the capital enforcing the rules, fatally? Except nobody likes the referee, so that's not great. BUT THEN you brought up the idea of exponential decay and how the encounter rate naturally goes down as the game progresses. And also you mentioned earlier how someone hiding out the whole game isn't very fun for the viewers. So what if the zone of play shrinks each day? Enforcing the new border lets the military show off and also experiment with new bioweapons like they do in the book series. The decreasing amount of space to maneuver helps keeps the players likely to encounter each other even as their numbers go down. It's a very bright-line rule, so minimal "referees are annoying" issues. And at the end of the game, you end up with a final face-off in that small starting arena (what's currently the cornucopia).

[@Arakus99]

You reinvented Fortnite :P (or was pubg the first with the shrinking? Idk)

[@tbotalpha8133]

@@Arakus99 H1Z1: King Of The Kill did it even before PUBG. But this is all splitting hairs. You're right though: they have basically recreated the central conceit of all Battle Royale games. A constantly shrinking play-space, forcing players into close contact with each other, and thereby maximising the chances of a violent encounter.

[@theapexsurvivor9538]

​@@Arakus99I think the competition for first is between PUBG and Minecraft Hunger Games, though there might be something older.

[@bittersweetvictory8541]

you have invented fortnite

[@timmygilbert4102]

There is older games with shrinking zones, bomberman (dynablaster) had them, and it's basically a smaller battle royal @@theapexsurvivor9538

[@michaeltodd343]

Watching this after your Redstone and Excel videos, i love how your videos get steadily more and more manic as time goes on. Love this kind of content, subscribed.

[@laughingooooo]

i love how op sounds closer and closer to tears with each passing second

[@boxesofflowers]

Interesting! Your simulation is very similar to how The Sims works (at least sims 1) To provide a little context on the training scores, they serve two main purposes - positioning yourself as a player to the other players and as a basis of the odds for gambling by the capitol citizens. But training is the beginning of the social game. This includes the eventual score. For example, those with high scores may have targets on their backs or be approached for teaming, or it may serve as intimidation. If a player appears too weak, they could be seen as easy cannon fodder or totally ignored. In book 2, the gamemakers specifically assign Katniss and Peeta scores of 12 to paint targets on their backs. Great vid! Can't wait to check out more from your channel!

[@simplythecat4068]

Hot take: survival capability shouldn't be a static value in the simulations, and instead be influenced by character's health and thirst/hunger. Obviously a person without a leg who hasn't eaten in 3 days won't be able to hunt as effectively as a person in perfect condition, even if the injured person was a better survivalist at their prime. + It should be influenced by the kind of gear a person has and maybe even the terrain they're on. Then we can throw in personal preference modifiers for each person to perform better if they're in their favorable terrain and if they have gear they're more experienced with.

[@timmygilbert4102]

Exponential decay is good, it sets the stakes with a big spectacle, set key player, then transition into suspenseful journey of a few key player without diluting them in a mass, basically most early kills are just background.

[@elitettelbach4247]

I really dig the increasingly frantic energy of this and you delve deeper into the data.

[@QilleWolf]

Mockingjay getting sniped at 13:27 cracked me up, great visual gag 😂

[@ErraticTea]

Players should not start with a random thirst/hunger score due to the fact that before the games, they spend a few days training and having interviews. During this time, they have access to as much food and water as they want. They all go into the games well fed and well... watered? does that word work here? eh Point is, they all start off fine when it comes to thirst and hunger. This arena also does not take different peoples metabolisms into account. It also needs to take into account that the 1st and 2nd districts are usually good at fighting, and 11th and 12th are usually bad at it, so players need an randomly generated advantage when going PvP, with modifiers based on their district. anyways cool video, very morbid, but fun to watch 👍

[@cassidyperry5002]

hydrated would be the better word there lol

[@ErraticTea]

@@cassidyperry5002 oh yeah! thanks :D

[@Ross516]

I believe Katniss specifically also makes a note in the first book about eating as much as she physically can to put on extra weight before the games, too. I imagine a lot of people would do similar, gorge themselves to be as well fed as possible

[@youtubeuniversity3638]

I really love the way you actually play your role. You are a pretty skilled voice actor honestly.

[@LightPink]

Making everyone start spead out makes the viewing experience way worse. The cornucopia makes everyone watch live at the start instead of just putting on the highlight reel in the evening.

[@recurvestickerdragon]

yeah, but only once. if the capital watches for entertainment and the district's watch because they're required to for intimidation, it doesn't serve either of those purposes to have the outcome be mostly decided on the first night

[@stardewofpyrrhia4381]

In addition, I think Survival Score should be broken down into a few elements: Hunting, Avoiding environmental dangers, Avoiding encounters with higher-level players, & Battle. Oooh and what if teammates can teach each other survival skills during the game?? Or what if they give them false information to sabotage them in the future? WHAT THEN?!

[@EisblutNacht]

This feels like someone got an assignment in statistics / simulation and the prof was like: yeah choose whatever topic and format you want!

[@BaileyHundl]

No joke, this is one of the best KZbin videos I’ve seen in a *while.* I literally started it back over when I was done watching it. HOW does this only have 6k views Immediate subscribe. Great stuff here

[@lemonlordminecraft]

6:00 I believe this is how the Minecraft Hunger Games minigame game modes work. 'Game' was said too many times in a row in the sentence prior and for this I apologise.

[@RamadaArtist]

I really appreciate that your solution to the problems of a fictional game in a movie based on the movie Battle Royale, is to just redesign to more or less mimic current battle royale genre video games.

[@popoto29]

15:01 me every time I start a new Terraria playtrough

[@tacogodboomdogg]

The cornucopia should not be removed since it starts the game with a bang, and following the story of all 24 tributes at the start is overwhelming.

[@SumRndmPenguin]

The Hunger Games if they hired 1 (one (uno (un))) statistician Edit: And that statistician went insane

[@matthewfinis6723]

This is honestly one of the greatest videos I’ve ever watched. No time to even take a breath in the last 15 minutes.. chefs kiss

[@afraidtoask1119]

book: don't create the torment nexus you: "this is how i would make the torment nexus the most interesting it possibly could be"

[@randommemeaddict249]

I argue that by making the perfect Hunger Games, you shot yourself in the foot. No future game will be good as yours. People will love your game, but no future game will be as enjoyed. Ant it'll be your fault.

[@ChipsandPizza-yq8bm]

17:00 its giving "I AM A SURGEON! I AM A SURGEON!"

[@thewhitehunter6805]

This is brilliant, the board will look forward for your next works.

[@elijahreads]

I can’t say anyone has ever said “this needs to be more drawn out and I can perfect it.” But you totally did I want to see this in action

[@alexgunning6910]

Possible tweak here: players are given some incomplete information, get to choose their starting locations. The draft happens in the order of the districts that candidates from the previous hunger games finished (some fudge for the male/female thing required). Lots of shenanigans around teaming ensure as well as reinforcing long term inequality (and so enmity) between districts...

[@alexgunning6910]

In general I think gamemaker intervention is best done in a plausibly deniable way -- eg placing resources or hazards in unexplored regions on the map/regions of the map that have not been seen on camera so as to benefit certain players. Of course the existence of this can be suspected by the players and the audience...

[@mobbs6426]

10 minutes in: "Well. Don't give this woman pow,- wait, there's more..?" 15 minutes in: "Okay, really don't give this woman power." 25 minutes in: "Somebody just give this woman a hug"

[@Strawlighte]

Immediate subscribe, this was amazing! I let out such a big laugh at “in conclusion, the hunger games is fine”

[@slenderMax28]

"Descent Into Madness" is my favorite youtube genre

[@hydrophobic5851]

Your tone in this realy reminds me of bdgs unravelled from way back in the day! Great work!

[@KeybladeSpirit]

This is like that thing on Twitter where they'll end a tweet with "In this video essay I will..." and then instead of trailing off as a joke you actually made the video essay. 10/10

[@teamcyeborg]

This has made me _really_ want to run a short D&D campaign in a Hunger Games arena with this new design now

[@mizotechx]

YT recommended your Excel game engine video, your OCD undertones got me here, and your awesome content is what's gonna make me stay!

[@245trichlorophenate]

We instilling fear in the districts with this one

[@aptalsandvic5355]

This isn't what i expected when i clicked on this video. Great work, love your ideas!

[@Cat_Friend_333]

This is such a fun video. I clicked for the game design and was pleasantly surprised at the mesh of statistics and fanfiction. Very cool! Plus, your version of the arena works really well.

[@ShiraCheshire]

The twist on this was absolutely amazing, bravo

[@spidersinmykeyboard6367]

You’re my new favorite person.

[@alxsytb]

15:43 id argue thats why the scores are there. overly effective players arent what you want either since too many of them and it would be over too quickly. but of course those that score really high would usually take each other as a threat so by having the all scores visible to the players they know who to watch out for so by the end theres only one or maybe two really high scores left. makes them taking out lower scores seem more like a hunter stalking its prey than a mindless slaughter and makes the lower scores have a chance by working together and defeating the high score, either option is more compelling cinematically, since thats what they want in these games, not just death but cinematic death.

[@wreichheld1170]

Amazing job! The breakdown of the logic behind your simulation was really cool to see and your graphics were simple but super effective. On my way to check out the rest of your channel now. :)

[@justsomejerseydevilwithint4606]

5:50 like in Minecraft hunger games. It's just good game design.

[@dectectivegoose]

My exact thought lol

[@absenteechild8542]

15:04 actually there's some trends here. Weapons with high availability and survivalist benefits (knife, axe) are heavily favored, as are weapons with more range (bees, trident) being moderately favored

[@clayanderson3553]

God I love how you sound increasingly unhinged and disconnected from reality as the video progresses, really fits the in universe story

[@zacholtman]

Holy shit, just got recommended this video. Absolutely loved it. A lot of effort went into it and it was a really fun watch.

[@Internetzspacezshipz]

Lmfao, the later 1/3 of the video was literally just “here’s how I could make a video game!”. Also surprised BR-style video games didn’t get a mention.

[@jojbenedoot7459]

Really awesome video! But I would have loved to see more about how the simulator panned out and the data you could collect!

[@lirich0]

i hate the contrived plot line where you drive yourself insane because it makes the audio unlistenable, but the video content itself is great

[@benenwren4110]

You are insane! This channel is going to go places

[@antiawarenessawarenessclub]

This video feels like watching someone descend into madness in real time

[@zackattack6627]

I feel like the cornocopia in context of the plot allows well trained tributes from rich capitol-supporting districts able to aquire all the resources and skew the results to favor them

[@tehchives]

Super fun video. really loved the last section breaking down the game theory and logic you can to.

[@Pseud0nymTXT]

13:13 You just need to do it on a quarter quell, there is precedence for new and different games with a twist and what is more of a twist than removing the cornucopia, especially if the contestants have no idea ahead of time

[@thespyfromteamfortress2656]

i can tell you had a LOT of fun with this