Is The Last Jedi the Most Divisive Star Wars Movie Ever? (SPOILERS) - SJU

PANEL:
Dan Murrell
Roth Cornet
Hal Rudnick
Spencer Gilbert
Joe Starr
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[@fuzz7981]

Dan seems to be the only one really in tune with the whole situation. Regardless of your individual opinion of the movie it has to be acknowledged that that there are a large number of people who had some pretty major problems with it. Dan is absolutely spot on with why there is backlash and it doesn't so much have to do with the changes the movie makes to the characters, larger story and lore as it does have to do with the way in which it was presented. The throwing away lightsaber scene is very representative of this and could make fans of the series feel silly for caring and/or speculating. In addition, there are some serious writing problems with the movie revolving around the fleet pursuit, Finn/Rose mission, Admiral Holdo's decisions and Poe's mutiny.

[@patricknoone171]

Yeah I mean I only have 3 problems with the movie, beginning, middle and end

[@johnmcnamara8741]

Patrick noone hahahahah same here

[@Doutsoldome]

+The Fuzz Very well said.

[@mr_coffee9917]

The Fuzz Only if few situations were have been dealt differently it would have made a lot , I mean alot of difference and those are 2 more backstory about Snoke and Rey's parents reveal being too casual

[@mr_coffee9917]

Supergecko8 Rey's not a Skywalker or Kenobi but tell us if she is her own Murphy or Corneth or Jackson whatever

[@justinmallon5978]

This will HANDS DOWN be the most debated star wars movie

[@gunhedd5375]

Justin Mallon • Until the next one.

[@CubbieBlue902]

And then until the next one after that. Its just going to keep getting worse for the rest of our lives. Gotta love the internet! People would’ve shit on Return of the Jedi if internet was around back then.. Oh well, I enjoy all Star Wars, so I get the satisfaction of knowing I’m happier than people who don’t love all Star Wars

[@jtodd0221]

I hate when people tell me why I didn't like a movie. No Joe Starr, Dan and I didn't like it because it was a joke of a movie and a mess....not because it didn't do what we wanted.

[@joolsen82]

Completely agree with you John Todd, even if they had established the things they have done from the last jedi into the force awakens, i would still say that it makes no sense, that the characters are unrelatable and that the plot holes are too stupid and obvious. And somehow that makes me a butthurt fanboy...

[@TheMrtrollguy]

Dan is the only one who gets the backlash

[@RossAllaire]

Still the top comment YT shows me.

[@jessefriesen9121]

I don't consider myself a diehard Star Wars fan- more of a Blade Runner or Alien fan myself, but I like Star Wars alright too. I'm 30 years old and grew up watching the original movies and have them memorized fondly like most of my generation, but I don't spend time on star wars leaderboards or obsessing over where the next movie will take the characters. I'm a fairly average fan. I had some relatively minor criticisms for Force Awakens, it was a little rehash-y here and there, but I really enjoyed it overall. However I had a ton of issues with The Last Jedi, and the problems aren't with the fact that they "subverted expectations" or that everyone's fan theories were way off. Already tired of hearing that cop-out response. The problems were bad writing, plot holes, throwaway subplots, and character actions that contradicted the personalities and motivations we've been presented with. It's not what they did, it's how they did it. There are some great elements in there with Rey, Luke, and Kylo, but the story is so bogged down with nonsense that it was hard for me to appreciate the truly awesome moments (of which there were many). Dan is the only one on the panel not being pretty dismissive toward the legitimate criticisms many people have, and I agree with pretty much everything he has said about this movie both here and in the spoiler review.

[@jonathanyokoyama6306]

I keep on hearing people say plot holes. The plot holes in this movie aren't any worse than the other Star Wars films. One of the worse plot holes in the Star Wars saga belongs, imo, to Episode 4 where the Empire for some reason didn't destroy the planet between the Death Star and Yavin Base. The plot holes in The Last Jedi aren't that bad in comparison. Personally, I think people are more mad about the fake outs and humor in this film more than anything.

[@EleventhDragon]

Jesse Friesen I completely agree. I think it is unfair to associate the negative commentary about this movie to the vocal minority. In my opinion, a trilogy should build upon each subsequant film until the ultimate finale in the third film. The MCU films do this very well. Although they allow directors to take liberty and tweak things, they are building towards something. Some of those things are well received while othes are not but there is a clear direction and plan by Kevin Feige that makes it all work. I wasn't a huge Captain America fan before but with the arc they have taken in the 3 movies he has become arguably my favorite hero. Furthermore, I think Feige recognizes the importance of continuity with how they have tasked James Gunn with building the Cosmic Universe and the Russos with working on the Infinity War movies. With the new trilogy that doesn't seem to be the case. I am hopeful with JJ coming back that the trilogy will end in a satisfying way but I am very pessimistic about that. I was excited to see where the trilogy would go after The Force Awakens, but with how The Last Jedi ended and the lack of direction, I have very little interest in watching Episode IX in a theatre. I will most likely wait until it comes out on the Disney streaming service to see how they end the Skywalker Saga. Perhaps that is what bothers me the most, they have taken something I was very interested in and with this movie, taken that interest away.

[@anthonygarcia8254]

That´s exactly why many Star Wars fans are upset about TLJ, the writing was terrible and they just scrapped so many plot points left in TFA that it didn´t look like a sequel to me, I am not mad because I had the higgest expectations or crazy theories about this movie but because it was a total nonsense, they just wasted the opportunity to make a great movie, I love Rey, Finn, and Poe as the new lead characters and Kylo as the villain but they are so wasted in this movie, for example Finn and Rose had such potential for this movie but their scenes are completely forgettable, I would have loved to see more Snoke and I hope they do something about him in the next movie, the subplots left by TFA were almost completely forgotten and that´s a shame, I really question Rian Johnson capacity to write and direct after watching this movie. As a science fiction movie it was average, as a Star Wars movie it was horrible.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

+Jonathan Yokoyama the truth is that the OT was solid despite the flaws. TLJ is flawed to the core. What are even the morals/message when the dialogue and the plot are in constant contradiction? Every Rebellion victory is achieved from Poe Dameron levels of recklessness and extreme self-sacrifice, but the character gets demoted to teach him to calm down and we see Leia bitter at the sacrifice from the bomber crews/Rose denies Finn's opportunity to take out the ram cannon (injuring herself in the process, which is the ultimate script hypocrisy). If Holdo had just behaved like a normal military commander and made her orders make sense (rather than look like a First Order spy trying to get them killed) Poe wouldn't have sent Finn to bring Del Toro into _Supremacy_ and tip off the First Order about the transport ships, meaning that a lot more people would have survived. We can't lose people to recklessness but we should be so calm that we even start to withhold information until it costs people's lives. Logic. Why should I listen to the dialogue of these characters when the script rewards them for not listening to their own advice? Is the moral of the story that you should trust your pink haired incompetent moron of a boss because she has a plan she'll pull out of her ass and not tell you about it?

[@visionbyeric1112]

RIP Admiral Ackbar, he should have been the one that ran the ship lightspeed through that star destroyer, that one have been a great ending to his arc, instead of someone I never heard of before.

[@harshbaid2511]

right ? i get it was part of holdo's arc but that moment should have been given to someone people actually gave a damn about.

[@TheCardSlayer]

I honestly think the problem was that no person named ackbar in 2017 can be a part of something like that... (allahu ackbar)

[@BlustoyourRay]

I’m sorry, complete Ackbar’s arc?

[@HCEllwine]

Not to familiar with all the canon stuff eh?

[@BlustoyourRay]

Howard Clarke even so, it’s pretty clear the canon (books/comics) are for supplemental material not something that gets main stage in a movie.

[@sallen6949]

In all honesty, and with all due respect, I take exception with the idea that those of us who dislike TLJ are a so called "vocal minority". I'm 45 and love the SW franchise with all my heart. I was neither disappointed in the blazing of a new trail, nor did I have theoretical expectations that I took into the movie. My wife and I went in wanting to enjoy the next SW movie and that's it. Neither of us thought that it felt like a SW movie. While the visuals were stunning and the score amazing, the writing was bland, the circumstances felt very unnatural and contrived. The establishment of the plot line from TFA was totally negated in TLJ. A map to lead the resistance to Luke just so Luke could tell Rey he went there to die? A military leader that refuses to explain to their troops the plan that is unfolding? Stopping military strategy so combatants can exchange quips and one-liners? No, my objections aren't politically minded, not based in chauvinism, and not because I'm part of a different generation. These are issues of continuity and bad writing; things that should be the bedrock of any good piece of cinema...and it pains me to say it. Yeah there's been an increase in the number of people opining. I never write reviews. I just go about my life and enjoy what I enjoy, and dislike what I dislike. The thing that has motivated me to speak out in this instance is the idea that seems to have permeated society at the moment, and that is if you don't like the news then it must be fake. And that's the issue I have with this particular video as well. People can't reconcile that half the audience hates this movie, with all due respect. That doesn't make it fake, that indicates that it's polarizing. People need to embrace fact rather than run away from it. Look at box office mojo, it clearly indicates an incredible drop from the opening two days. The last two days (Monday 19th and Tuesday 20th) ticket sales are down to $20m...roughly $17m below TFA at the same point in its theatrical release. That's not a misnomer...it's a harbinger of public opinion and interest. I invite anyone to look at the box office numbers and see for themselves. I'm not trying to convince anyone at all that the movie is bad. Art is subjective and everyone has the right to love what they love. In fact I envy the people who love this movie...I wish I could too. I'm trying to convince people that the divide is real and there is a large part of the audience who dislike it based upon real, tangible reasons, And not because of an agenda.

[@edvfya9922]

VERY well said!

[@jomega3751]

im 17 and yea im right there with you on this. I loved all the Star Wars movie's even the prequels. They were building to something all of them, then this movie stopped where TFA was heading. Having 2 new directors just wasn't the right idea imo. Cant have 2 different visions and expect people to enjoy this film.

[@Avarn388]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Generalizing and labeling people who do not like the movie is uncalled for. It is tribalistic and very much ignorant on people who do this. This movie, I argue has a big flaw in terms of consistency and showcases that LF didn't even have a damn plan for this ST. And really, for those fans of the mystery box; they have every right to be upset. Rian Johnson needed to better respect JJ Abrams setup. Because, as you said; this movie will make money. BUT trust me; a divided fanbase(I'm not talking Legends or fringe fanbases) that had supported the company until now; that will have an impact on profits. And really, once that happens; KK will be ousted. Plain and simple. Really, The Last Jedi is a movie that had interesting ideas but really shouldn't have been a saga ST film. This was better as an anthology film.

[@eliezerrodriguez5863]

You are wrong. It's 50/50 not 90/10. There are a lot of people who love this movie.

[@SleepyRickyC92]

S Allen well said and it is exactly what I feel.

[@TheBackOfTheClassroom]

32:45 _"I'm so glad that there's not a plan"_ Said by literally no human.

[@MichelleStreisand]

It's the aspect that makes me the most upset.

[@liptongtr]

Yea that guy throughout the entire discussion is a moron. The mental gymnastics he does to explain away all the problem of the film is astounding. Kylo Ren could show up in a clown costume and this dude would be like, "Groundbreaking! Artistic choice never before seen in a Star Wars film!

[@stddgv11]

liptongtr You are 100% correct!

[@12SPASTIC12]

Basically Poe's sentiments this whole movie too.

[@nastybutler224]

Dan is right. That's exactly how I feel and I can't believe how dismissive the others were in seeing his point of view.

[@mr_coffee9917]

Playstation Pookie they were mean but they were also somewhat right , I didn't feel throwing that lightsaber casually was wrong and whole stuff with Luke was really fine only stuff with Rey and Snoke really really hurt

[@mrpillows4669]

The Honest Trailer will be interesting. Spencer has so much to work with, they could feasibly make the longest Honest Trailer that's been made. Disney got a little too happy with throwing things over their shoulder that by the time they got to Luke... they may of gone too far with the "casual disposal" theme

[@omarcorrea]

totally agree with Dan about Luke just throwing the saber over his shoulder. Totally wasted a great moment. We waited 2 years to see it treated so flippantly. I was fine with him not wanting it, but it could have been handled more seriously instead of it being used as a comedic element. He could have just dropped it to the ground.

[@louiewilliamson1062]

Omar Correa exactly how I felt about that moment! Plus I was fine with snoke dying in the movie, but I feel we could have got something about his relationship with kylo and how he pulled him to the darkside. Just no explanation in anyway. It was a let down for me on that front

[@David-kd4qr]

agreed. It would have been better for him to look disgusted and throw it down. Instead it felt like it need a laugh track

[@LiveLXStudios]

Not at all. It was a great way to to really kick off the string of "not going to go how you expected" awesomeness It wasn't just a comedic element. It was a stinger to get across a point

[@trinity6302]

LX but at what cost, when you could've done something better

[@jackiek.4778]

I 100% agree. It was probably one of the top 5 things that I HATED about this film. This is Luke's own lightsaber. Regardless of how he currently feels, not using the Force or being a Jedi, what the lightsaber represents should be honored. It is completely out of character for Luke to do such a thing. He could have handed it back to her, he could have dropped it to the ground....ANYTHING but throwing it over his shoulder.

[@conradallen8269]

I respect all opinions (positive & negative) about this movie but Dan Murrell... THANK YOU for being able to explain (to the rest of the panel & the audience), the side of how some other "Star Wars" fans (like myself) that believed the "Last Jedi" was a totally letdown because you mentioned a few things that were accurate on how we feel (or felt). I love "Star Wars" and I really wanted to love this movie (going in), but after watching the movie and knowing the director (Rian Johnson) accepted to "shock" the audience and take a 'new & bold' direction with this franchise (with a dedicated fan base), which includes not continuing plot ideas from "The Force Awakens" (like Rey's parents & Snoke's history), he accepted this 'backlash'. Some of the scenes (like Luke Skywalker being a broken man & tossing the lightsaber given to him by Rey over his shoulder was like a cheap joke for laughs, Poe (who is a seasoned pilot & understand the importance of his role in the Rebel Alliance) disobeying orders which caused many rebels to die, the side mission with Finn & Rose could have been removed all together and given them something better to do with the rest of the ship members, the 'ship to ship' chase was a real joke, etc). It's about 'execution' of this scenes & Ideas that could have been done better. I could go on, but that would be another two paragraphs!

[@thelastavenger481]

I have never read something that is so wrong yet said with so much confidence

[@mulco]

The guy to the right seems to be the only one that have some insight to the hearts and mind of the fan base. the other guys seem to be so disconnected from the fact that this movie have generated a backlash that any claims that they are fans to the franchise should be taken with a grain of salt.

[@romainmongin533]

It almost turned into Movie Fights for a moment there...

[@GodsSon987]

Seems like a tease for what's to come

[@visionbyeric1112]

Next movie, Chewie, R2D2, C3P0, Lando Calrissian, will all blow up in the Millennium Falcon off camera and it will just be mentioned after a joke between unknown characters.

[@TheBackOfTheClassroom]

This joke sums up how TLJ is handling all this.

[@trinity6302]

RIP Admiral Akhbar, I cant be the only one affected

[@CarlosAnthonyDeLeon]

And Leia, the only character who has a good reason to be killed off, will conveniently survive the explosion.

[@maxxc14jm]

That’s a very stupid comment. What part of the last Jedi handles death or loss in a comedic way?

[@alex86devapath]

Don’t give them any idea lol

[@jkdoorbinnia]

I don't mind making different decisions and taking risks, but they should at least add to the story; it just felt like they read all the popular opinions and theories and said "all right, we'll shock them by not doing that", without actually having some kind of continuity plan. This is a trilogy for god's sake, the events will have future consequences, and to me it seems like they're just making it up as they go along rather than having a clear progressive structure. Really you could have skipped TFA and nothing will have changed because they killed off half the cast and abandoned alot of sub-plots that were hinted to be important in future installments.

[@geoffreyharris5682]

Also they should have been respectful in doing generational hand-offs. Look how Ben Kenobi, Yoda, and Gandalf were handled in that.

[@solaris100]

jkdoorbinnia Totally agree. And instead we get an totally boring Finn / Rose subplot that didn’t go anywhere either…

[@toddforeman4525]

I find it ironic that "The Last Jedi" is about finding balance and the reviews are horrible or fantastic.

[@erikheisenburg1759]

Dan said a lot of things I've been thinking over the last couple days.

[@behemothokun]

I understand his point of view but I really disagree with most of it. Still, Dan is one of my favourites in the SJ team.

[@djack39]

Agree with everything he said

[@harshrealities2881]

Erik Heisenburg his point about it seeming contemptuous is exactly how I feel.

[@Tyonnical]

Thank you Dan. You've really put a finger on some things that bothered me. I'm sick of people talking down to me just because i was disappointed. The people that complained about TFA are not necessarily the same people that didn't like this one. I loved TFA and didn't like TLJ.

[@nastybutler224]

I feel like the people that complained about TFA were the other people sitting at the table other than Dan and Roth.

[@CoarStolos]

TFA played it too safe. I liked it, but its true. It did not challenged the SW mythos at all. I get why people are disliking TLJ, but is very well crafted movie.

[@callmeej8399]

rcheer same!

[@julesvox]

I mean, it has a NEW fucking plot.

[@LoveShiaGDSN]

Conversely, I was disappointed by TFA and loved TLJ.

[@ToanDTran]

Dan is the Last Jedi. OMG to the other 3

[@ChikoChonny]

It's time to Jedi to end.

[@MrMoose365]

Major K FACTS

[@pakornwattanavrangkul2550]

Dan, you pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why I am frustrated with this movie, the way they just casually throw out elements that makes it a star wars film.

[@422katieleigh]

This discussion stressed me out. I don’t like any discussion where someone says, “No this is how it is and you’re wrong and I’m right end of discussion.” This was not a calm respectful conversation from all parties.

[@Exterminator7]

There there, it's gonna be alright. Here, have a security blanket.

[@myohmyDesign]

Dan is on point. Everything he said is where I'm coming from. You can subvert expectations, and fans DID want something challenging and different but on top of the jarring humour, the jarring tone, the pointless side-plots, PLUS the lackadaisical approach to throwing away elements to the lore, the feeling of contempt to the people who cared about what was set up in TFA, etc; It was just too much for TLJ to hold together.

[@jonathanyokoyama6306]

There was continuity in The Last Jedi, people just didn't like the answers they got.

[@ariashkenazi9211]

I'm with you Dan, sorry it felt like you were fighting alone at the table =)

[@Sugardeluxe]

This was maddening to watch. Dan expressed his point of view quite well. The left half of the table were acting like bothered clowns. Like "whipper snapper know it alls" whose general attitude is "get over it". Tossing around words like BOLD to mask the director's poor choices. Lord...and Roth you don't need to remind us that you LOVE this film after saying something mildly critical.

[@mrpillows4669]

Cognitive Dissonance.... they liked it so they can't discuss any of the actual reasons that there was not to like. They can't accept it or they must justify it in their own head through some dismissive mean so as to discredit it. Dan is the only one that can express "mixed feelings" and how its not bad to have mixed feelings about this, there are very good reasons for your feelings to be mixed.

[@t.n.8111]

Subliminal Origami is correct. When they say "bold" hear "creative laziness." Instead of passing the baton to the next generation of Star Wars fans, thanks to Rian Johnson the baton was literally tossed over Luke's shoulder. This isn't Star Wars, it's left wing Star Wars revisionism.

[@sergueileonardoafonin7950]

guys, just watch the other 7 films, there are perfect by your score

[@SlyMagma]

Sugardeluxe 9

[@BigSleepyOx]

Subliminal Origami, I like when guys like you slip up and reveal your real beef. You don't like it that the next Jedi to take the torch passed from Kenobi to Luke is now passed to a girl. So pathetic. (Oh, and you want the all the characters to be white, is that what your "ethnic diversity" complaint is about?)

[@GradiusPilot]

Put all the pros/cons aside and I think it’s down to two things: (1) The original trilogy was a classic hero’s journey / fairytale story. Suddenly this movie brings us into a dreary and complex reality. Fundamentally, whether these two perspectives “link together” depends upon what kind of fan you are. Not everyone wants “Cinderella Part 2” where she is divorced from the Prince and hooked on the booze. (2) It’s all a matter of degree. The key is that Luke has become a “loser” in **some viewers eyes’ - he’s in the space equivalent of his momma’s basement with alien caretakers doing his laundry and drinking green milk straight from the bottle, deliberately cut off from the force so he doesn’t have to do a hero’s chores. He could have been a failure without being a loser, and the movie might have made us feel the emotional weight of that failure more deeply had the context been fleshed out, and had Luke not seemed so juvenile in his attitude. On the flip side, Luke is never fully redeemed - he manages one last act to put him at peace (as Rey puts it), and that is bittersweet for Luke, for the audience, and for Luke’s relationship with Rey. Stacked on top of that, the Force Awakens was about getting the map to end up in this uncomfortable place. That’s tough for some fans to swallow. I liked the movie, but I think they shook up the character of Luke a little too much, or perhaps simply in the wrong way. There are better ways of passing the baton to the new cast that still would have given credence to the idea that you can’t always fall back on old heroes.

[@ETBrooD]

But it was JJ who caused these problems. Rian was the one who had to figure out which path to go down: save Luke from JJ's terrible writing/directing choices or keep going down the rabbit hole in spectacular fashion. He chose the latter and put a few twists to it. I think Rian wanted to keep things interesting so the safer choice wasn't an option for him, especially because it would only save Luke on a very, very superficial level. It would completely ruin the character arc that was previously set up by JJ and Luke's path from RotJ to TFA wouldn't make any sense anymore. Either way Luke's arc wouldn't make sense, the only question was which was the lesser of the two evils, or which one fits Rian's writing style better.

[@pedromdcc13]

GradiusShipPilot I see your point but I always thought of Luke as not the most interesting tool in the shed in the originals. Liked Han more, Leia more, Chewie more, Yoda more, Darth Vader more, Obi Wan alway felt more mysterious and interesting... he just felt like a by the books Hero to me. Now, after TLJ he is up there with my favorites. So I really didn't thik he changed to much or in the wrong way. But a lot of people did so...

[@patricknoone171]

I don't feel what Rian did is interesting at all though. It made me 100% disinterested in any new Star Wars. It was a complete slap in the face and shake u saying stop caring. Well I did

[@pedromdcc13]

Patrick noone Everything you said is vague. Care to explain why?

[@edvfya9922]

Pedro Henrique Its perfectly fine if what he said is vague. Hes just saying how the movie made him feel, he isn't attempting to start an argument. I get why you asked though.

[@iamVJLopez]

Poe, Rose and Finn, Rey and Kylo, Luke make wrong decisions that make meaningful, right actions into failures and mistakes. While I see it can be a flaw with the narrative, I wonder if Rian was using these plot elements and narrative decisions on purpose. Even Del Torro's character mentions to Finn and Rose that no one is right. There is no good guy and bad guy. I wonder.

[@LiveLXStudios]

V.J. Lopez Basically "This is not going to go the way you think it is!" Yep

[@john.k.flores]

yeah, watched the film again and it becomes completely obvious that it's one of main themes of the film

[@iamVJLopez]

LX lol I didn't even think about that one

[@iamVJLopez]

John that's interesting. I've only watched it once so far. But that has been on my since. Gonna have to watch it again too then.

[@Daniel_Bradford]

33:10 for the next 30 seconds is a great reason why I am annoyed at this movie. I left the theatre thinking to myself, why on earth do I feel like I watched the beginning of the trilogy instead of the second movie in the series.

[@Kr1stmas]

yes, I thought the last jedi was great but when you look at the movie as the sequel to force awakens it gets problematic. And even worse I think rian johnson left the trilogy in a really weird spot for j.j. abrahams to do the last movie. Then again you could say j.j. didn't even have a clue what the third movie was going to be and has now interesting arcs to piggy back on.

[@porterxd4520]

So true

[@elferi]

The three guys on left should get briefing about what is the discussion about. They should discuss the divisive opinion amongst fanbase. The three guys just spitting other side opinion (that don't like TLJ) and call those who have different opinions as stupid/delusional fanboys. On the other hand, the guy on the right presents both opinions and trying to elaborate where those opinions (the pros and the cons) came from.

[@BigSleepyOx]

Dan (the guy on the right) started off presenting both sides, but as time went on, and he became increasingly angry, you could see what side he was on.

[@omarcorrea]

JJ Abrams produced the Last Jedi. I'm pretty sure him and Rian Johnson spoke about the story before the script was created. I think most people are angry because we've worked in our heads the backstory and what we wanted to see happen and since that didn't happen, people are upset.

[@camdonking1919]

I dont think so Omar, this really feels like a Producer credit in name only. since he was one of the head creative team on the first movie, he get a credit for its sequels. Kind like Chris Nolan for BvS

[@camdonking1919]

Exactly Chipouky, there's over 40 min of screen time devoted to a plot that had absolutely no impact on the story, how is that considered to be a quality movie?

[@joeykarate3148]

He was an executive producer aka he just picking up a paycheck

[@omarcorrea]

Thats an assumption.

[@joeykarate3148]

Omar Correa nope you're the one assuming stuff kid

[@thestoiccatholic7012]

(WARNING: SPOILERS) As usual, Dan is spot on. I think some (not many) of the decisions Rian Johnson made were good for Star Wars, but he went to far on some of them to the point that they seemed like thinly veiled insults to fans like myself. Personally, I think most of the problems that the hardcore fanbase (again, myself included) stemmed from the death of Luke Skywalker. If Rian had not made that decision, I would have left the film on a high. I would be mad at some of the other decisions, but at least I would have left on a high. Instead, I left the theater sad, dejected, and confused, more than ready, in fact enthusiastic, to pick this movie apart. Simply put, Luke was not given enough to time to have his redemption arc from grumpy broken man to Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master! Furthermore, on a selfish note, I wanted and needed to have a awe-inspiring, magnificent lightsaber duel with Luke Skywalker, not just teased by the one in The Last Jedi. I have been waiting for this since I saw Star Wars: A New Hope when I was nine. Also, a two quick reminders to Spencer and the rest: #1. Yes, the film-makers need to appeal to the "casual" fan, but it has been the hardcore fanbase that has kept Star Wars alive for so long. While you might not care about the new "expanded universe", we do. While you might watch Star Wars once a year, if that, we watch it fifteen times a year. If you completely alienate us, Star Wars will die simply because do not or are too disgusted to want a new expanded universe that will keep the mythology going. The number one rule of any franchise is a hardcore fanbase that wants to keep seeing more, while balancing just enough new material or surprises to keep it fresh. Just look at any of the major franchises of today: Marvel, X-men, etc. Almost all of the movies that, while they might have money at the beginning, have no lasting impact are the ones in which the wishes and expectations of the hardcore fans have been ignored or subverted. #2. The movie is different from The Empire Strikes Back in one key aspect. When The Empire Strikes Back came out in 1980, it had only one movie and a handful of books and comics to build on. The mythology had not been built yet. While people may have been mad at first, they quickly changed there minds as NEW books, comics, etc. created NEW stories to build on the decisions in Empire Strikes Back. This is not the case with The Last Jedi: The Last Jedi, in many cases, directly or indirectly contradicts almost thirty years of lore that is loved by many. It is highly doubtful, espcially considering that Disney's new EU has been jaw dropping bad to mediocre, that these new stories in the new EU will ever gain the popularity that the old ones did. Even Timothy Zahn, one of the best writers of the old EU, has not been able to save it. Summing up, The Empire Strikes Back worked because it did not have thirty years of lore to discard or change or a hardcore fanbase to offend. The Last Jedi does not have this benefit. Unless episode 9 makes some major changes, The Last Jedi will be lampooned by the hardcore fanbase because it made changes that the hardcore fanbase, again, the reason why Disney is making Star Wars movies, were and most likely will never accept.

[@inthissignthoushaltconquer4624]

I hate the new EU story lines created by Disney

[@jlueck]

So was your issue with the fact that Luke died, or that Luke went from grumpy old hermit to wanting to join in the fight with seemingly no middle ground?

[@inthissignthoushaltconquer4624]

If you ask me both reasons Jacob

[@jlueck]

In This Sign Thou Shalt Conquer 1) I think Luke's sacrifice was necessary to not only spark hope but also allow the fight to continue (much like Obi-wan in the original) I know he is a beloved character, but he is not the protagonist of this story. It is clear that Rey and Kylo Ren fill those roles. This is their story, not Luke's. 2) I did think Luke was allowed to breathe. He does reluctantly train Rey (albeit an abridged training), showing him having hope again. Also Yoda's final lesson about failure inspires him to use the force once again. While it would have been nice to see him have a final badass fight scene, what purpose would it have served? He is not the hero of the story. I think both JJ and Rain Johnson have made it clear that we shouldn't stay attached to the heroes of yesteryear and look to them for answers. They all have passed their torches to the new generation of heroes.

[@inthissignthoushaltconquer4624]

I would strongly disagree, Luke was a grumpy old man who threw his father's lightsaber off a cliff. His training of Rey was way too short, if Luke had trained Rey a little longer it would have explained why she is so good at everything. They should have killed off Luke in a more satisfying manner, Luke literally just saved eight remaining resistance fighters. Obi-wan had a much more satisfying demise, you feel like he didn't die in vain. Luke literally vanished without any reason. Luke's death made me leave the theater sad, confused, and feeling dissatisfied. Also, the Last Jedi had too much humor in parts that should have been more serious. Another complaint I had with the film was the stupid story line with the rebel ships being chased through space, why couldn't First Order ships intercept them. Also why couldn't Admiral Holdo (Aka Laura Dern) just tell Poe her plan, she just seemed like a jerk to me. It's like Lady just tell everybody your plan it would save a lot of trouble. I was really hoping the Last Jedi would be the next Empire Strikes Back but Disney disappointed me. I am a major Star Wars fan and it seems to me Disney is not marketing Star Wars to the fanboys any more but instead to the casual Star Wars fan No wonder Mark Hamill is disappointed with his role.

[@h.godftw6498]

Uhmm if it wasn't a real problem, you wouldn't be doing an addendum video discussing whether or not it was a problem. :/ Star Wars might not be falling apart, but it needs to admit that this kind of approach to narrative is a genuine issue.

[@robotpanda77]

Dude didn't you hear them everybody loved this movie and the bad scores are fake. Prob hacked by the russians am i right? #imwithher

[@brockdarock41]

The guy on the far left is unbearable holy shit

[@Sebastianrm30]

Ignite J He is a complete dumbhead. I can't believe how ignorant that guy is.

[@bashful_michael]

I didn't like that Spencer and especially Joe just dismissed the divisive nature of this film and blamed it on overreacting fan boys. I'm so thankful for Dan's point of view. Don't lump together people who are giving valid criticisms with those who are just hating on the film just because they like to hate. The Last Jedi acts like The Force Awakens doesn't exist. I'm fine with a film subverting expectations but when the movie completely ignores pretty much everything that The Force Awakens sets up than I feel we have a problem. I still enjoyed the movie but you can clearly tell Rian wanted to make his own Star Wars movie and didn't care about continuing the mythology that was set up before it.

[@luckyday8522]

What was set up in FA that was dropped?

[@iqpok]

+Simon James While there definitely are a lot of good valid criticisms against this movie, I understand where Joe and Spencer are coming from. Many of the fans really are completely overreacting and a lot of it is because the movie didn't follow what they wanted to see happen. Not to say they all are like that, but when good number of the fanboys are calling it "the worst thing ever" and saying it is "ruining Star Wars", then it is hard to take that crowd seriously even if they do have some good points. This is especially when they are talking about this movie. This movie had a lot of pretty amazing character work and looked at some of the deepest and most interesting themes regarding the universe ever shown on the big screen. I think for many of the fanboys to ignore some of that is a bit ridiculous, just like it is ridiculous for people that liked the film to ignore that it has flaws.

[@iqpok]

Are you going to ignore that Kylo had some great character moments? Or Rey? Or even Luke with Yoda was a great character moment for Skywalker? Also even though Poe's story didn't get enough screen time and was undercut by the poor Finn storyline, he definitely developed as a character (though I wish it did get more time to develop him and Holdo a bit more) I mean I get it if you don't like many of the stories or plot points, but to ignore any of those character moments is defiantly over the top. This is why people like Joe and Spencer can't take the some of the hardcore Star Wars community seriously. I have a great friend who also didn't like the film, but unlike you, he is actually able to see some of the great story elements in this movie. He doesn't like a lot about how it treated his beloved characters from the original trilogy and I get that. So it isn't just because I am not understanding you. Also the Star Wars fandom has done the same thing to many of the best Star Wars stories. By the same thing, I mean that they have overly criticized some great Star Wars stories on release because they challenged the status quo of the universe. I mean Empire was decisive when it came out, but a better and more recent example is KotOR2. KotOR2 looked at a lot of the same themes and ideas that this movie did and was originally not well accepted by the Star Wars community. This is even though it had much better writing and more interesting themes than the first one (which was basically a generic Star Wars story). Now, after time has passed it gets the recognition it deserves and I feel the same will happen for this movie.

[@Aroreiel08]

What was ignored from The Force Awakens exactly? Your expectations and fan theories?

[@Hoganply]

That's because thematically The Force Awakens was an uninteresting movie. I'm glad he didn't feel pressured into answereing uninteresting questions with predictable, uninteresting answers.

[@Katt1721]

I had some issues with it, but after seeing it again, I still would say I liked it. The Finn/Rose storyline was the one I had the most problems with (along with the humor bits and miscommunication as a plot device). I feel like its pretty clear the original plan for Finn was that he was the reason the First Order was able to track them (there's a line "We have them on the end of a string," which then immediately cuts to Finn), so the rest of that story didn't really gel together as well. What I had NO issue with, is what seems to be the most vocal criticism I hear about this movie online (not really on SJ as much thankfully). This is mostly people being annoyed their fan theories didn't matter or pan out (Rey's parents, Snoke), or that the male characters were written weaker/dumbed down (especially been seeing this around Luke and Poe). I thought Luke was one of the highlights of the film, and I think its completely valid that time and those experiences would have changed him from his RotJ-era. And with Poe, its showing that being a hothead doesn't always pan out, despite what most action movies tell you otherwise. Rey and Kylo may be in similar places physically than they were in the last film, but mentally, they have definitely changed. I was so worried going into TLJ that it was going to feel like TFA did, with too many familiar story beats to how a Star Wars sequel should go. I was just happy at how different it was, and how it seems committed to telling its own narrative, rather than holding onto expected conventions. I mean, I've already seen think pieces on "who the stable boy could be," and I kind of want to face palm, just stop. It doesn't matter. He's a symbol for a new generation of hope within that universe, and a new generation of Star Wars fans. There's no deeper meaning there. TLJ grabs the audience and tells them that their heroes are flawed and human, you have to give up idols in order to grow up, and that disappointment will stay with you. Then it gives you a big hug and tells you that you will heal, and you will grow and that while that may be painful, you will come out better for it. There is good and hope in the world and it will always win. You matter, regardless of everything in your life, regardless of where you came from, you matter and you too can be a part of this story. Whether or not it executed that message as a whole seems to be mixed, but I think it succeeded in the arc that matters the most.

[@titanguy7316]

I know this point was made years ago, but - THANK YOU! All of your thoughts pretty much echo how I felt about the film.

[@Dat1boi05]

I'm a fair weather star wars fan, I enjoyed the force awakens because it was a good movie that set up the series, although it was the same movie as A New Hope. This movie was terrible because there were no stakes, nothing mattered, and there is no set up for the final movie. Poor writing and directing isn't the same as a "twist" or "different direction." This movie may not be as terrible if it didn't tear down everything set up in the force awakens.

[@jomega3751]

and it was a copy of episode 5 and 6.

[@chesterfumblenutts6935]

Dat1boi05 It also wouldn't be as terrible if it made any kind of sense in its own right. It's like someone made this movie in a pocket of space, in an alternate reality where star wars andany kind of good writing do not exist.

[@taylormadetactics7251]

i also totally disagree that you cant please both types of fan, i was not expecting to be catered to in the slightest, but just treat the old fans with some respect and if you kill off beloved characters to move on, then do it with some dignity or some good reasons

[@CentaurYogi]

Yup, you nailed it Dan! You gotta respect the hardcore fans and not just toss them over your shoulder like trash.

[@Zoltan1251]

so filmmakers should please fans all the time?.... thats dumb

[@Doutsoldome]

It's not about pleasing. It's about not disrespecting. Different things.

[@Zoltan1251]

+Doutsoldome... some people just cannot differentiate between these two things...

[@rsh8057]

yeah, the three guys on the left are pretty clueless...

[@tesslynfrancis9322]

the reaction to this film reminds me of the initial reaction to prisoner of Azkaban. Fans were pissed because it, to an extent, undermined established lore in previous films. Same story here. But, with the benefit of hindsight, we all came to love it because it is unique and gorgeous and so well directed. My feeling is that Last Jedi will experience a similar sort of redemption with time

[@pedromdcc13]

Amen

[@katakesh8566]

6 years on.... No, it didn't. 60 years on willing to bet it's the same

[@chrisholden7215]

Dan is totally on point with this movie.

[@BenignViewer]

Surprise =/= good. And even then it wasn't particularly surprising... instead everything just sort of fizzled out. A twist (like Vader being Luke's father, Leia being his twin, Bruce Willis being dead at the end of 6th Sense etc.) works by revealing shocking information to the character/plot which the audience experiences vicariously; in TLJ they 'shockingly twist' mysteries by saying nothing - that they don't matter. This just lets a whole lot of people down because your not subverting anything in the movie itself, you're just undercutting the audience's expectations. When you repeat this same storytelling sleight of hand ad nausiem you just leave yourself with a surprisingly shallow movie that seems to exist only to suck the substance out of the other movies. Let's list some of them shall we? You thought that Luke was a hero after redeeming Vader by standing up to the temptation of the dark-side, and accepting his own death? PSYCHE! He's a scared old man. You thought Carrie Fisher's Leia would be hauntingly and tragically sent off with a beautiful scene despite her son's realization not to kill her? PSYCHE! She's Leia Organa Skywalker Solo Poppins! You thought Rey would discover something about herself through her Darkside test? PSYCHE! She just sees herself, too perfect as she is and has been since TFA and '''learns''' that she's special regardless who her parents are/aren't. You thought Finn had found a cause to (fight and) die for? PSYCHE! He's still trying to run away and then he's not allowed to make his own decisions because someone else wants him for themselves. You thought Poe was trying to save the Resistance's lives and resources from the First Order and an incompetent admiral in a nightgown? PSYCHE! He actually didn't learn to protect lives and ships after risking them to take out the Dreadnought (even though it turns out that saved all their lives) and instead he ruins the (PSYCHE! almost competent) admiral's plan to escape by risking all their lives and costing all their ships (all ultimately because an Asian girl illegally parked - I swear I'm not making this up). You thought Snoke had some special ability or resource to resurrect a galaxy-controlling Empire and to seduce/control some of Luke's Jedi students? PSYCHE! He was just a pontificating stereotype who died because he couldn't tell the difference between Ren's and Anakin's light-saber handles. You thought Hux couldn't become more of an insane Nazi stereotype? PSYCHE! He did. You thought Luke would sacrifice himself to destroy/weaken the First Order, or then that the was deceiving them so he could rejoin the Rebels and guide Rey? PSYCHE! He was an illusion but PSYCHE! He was tired and died anyway because PSYCHE! Rey doesn't need to be taught! *P.S.* The only 'twist' with any kind of meaningful value to the story was Rey discovering that her Parents were insignificant to the galaxy, if not their identities per se. While I didn't quite buy that that realization would instantly make them insignificant to _her_ as well (and that it only adds to the issue of her character's incredible capability without training or consequence) it does have a strong thematic arc behind it and significance to the story. There's some actual character development for her. It's perhaps the only interesting and invigorating creative decision in the movie, so even if it makes the depiction of Rey's powers irredeemable, it's the only idea the film had that I liked. It subsequently wasted the opportunity to explore that further by having Rey and Ren unite and try to build something completely different to both Empire and Republic and instead resetting the universe back to the Pre-ANH scenario.

[@GodofFrankie]

Spot-on.

[@laurah.horsfall1729]

The passion! The intellectual debate! The thematic discussion! Good stuff, SJ.

[@DarthMerlin]

Planted comments? Really, Screen Junkies?

[@laurah.horsfall1729]

DarthMerlin 😆 ...yep, you got me. No way a real person could be complimentary to this show.....or could they? 🤔😉

[@DarthMerlin]

No offense, but that compliment sounded so generic and fake, I couldn't believe it wasn't posted by a bot...or an intern at Screen Junkies.

[@laurah.horsfall1729]

DarthMerlin ....'kay then. Thanks for the input, bud.

[@DarthMerlin]

You're very welcome.

[@instafication]

This was a great discussion. Thanks for showing that we can have friendly disagreements.

[@unimusha77]

God Dan is smart.

[@SeikenFreak]

For the question that was posed at one point in this video, as a casual viewer of Star Wars, I'm on the neutral/bad end opinion end of Last Jedi. There is so much in this movie that seems flawed to me. I, even to my surprise, felt bored in the theater. I feel like a lot of the positives I'm hearing from places like this are so involved in the meta of making this film and such, instead of just looking at it as a movie you just sit and watch after seeing Force Awakens or any of the other movies, without knowing all the behind the scenes production stuff.

[@jannadstazik8532]

I am a hardcore Star Wars fan and I still really like this movie. It’s not that I don’t see its flaws but I think the people that are complaining are the ones that hate change in general.

[@tyroneturner4923]

Jan Nadstazik Make America Great Again by keeping Luke the same farm boy turned Jedi that we all grew to love in the original trilogy. Never mind the fact that personality traits might change over the course of 30 years during which a war was raging and you failed to reinstate the Jedi, with your very own nephew joining the dark side. No ptsd to worry about there.

[@CubbieBlue902]

tyrone turner Yep. You get it lol.

[@CubbieBlue902]

Paul Murray How on Earth? Try looking at comments on any social media thread by someone who hates it.. You’ll see that it’s clearly because they don’t want things to change at all.

[@TheClashOfCultures]

those who don't like the last jedi are nazis, punch all nazis

[@blastermaster5009]

Everyone on this panel, except for Dan, are strawmaning the people that didn't like this movie. Really Spencer, the people that didn't like this movie wouldn't have liked Empire Strikes Back when it first came out? What?

[@shotbynolan1705]

BlasterMaster i had the same reaction smh

[@Zoltan1251]

imagine going into theater and legendary jedi knight is half meter long green puppet.... people were pissed.... or that Emperor has no back story and people should just believe that he is leader of Vader? how stupid is that?

[@blastermaster5009]

I have a feeling you weren't even alive when ESB came out. It was extremely well-received, unlike TLJ.

[@Zoltan1251]

+BlasterMaster... by critics, not by fans.... just like right now

[@blastermaster5009]

That's absolutely not true.

[@citrusswirlgirl2638]

Agree with Dan, THERE NEEDS TO BE A PLAN. Would be fine with all the changes from TFA to TLJ if I knew there was a method to the madness but NO. Figure out your trilogy before you go public Lucasfilm.

[@richardgreeter4918]

There are a legitimate amount of people who didn't like last jedi and they do speak loudly you Can't ignore that and bad word of mouth always travels it is getting roasted by a lot of people and the rotten tomatoes audience score is 56% rating so that is a little concerning and fans did have a legitimate reason to be pissed Han Luke and Leah after all they went through in the first 3 movies didn't matter and they died in shitty ways so yeah I see why people are upset

[@Sideout1000]

My major complaints with The Last Jedi. 1. Snoke and Captain Phasma are thrown away like garbage. We learn nothing about these characters. 2. The only reason Poe sends Finn and Rose on that stupid and pointless side quest is because Holdo wouldn't tell Poe her plan.Why wouldn't she just tell him? Doesn't make any sense. 3. Speaking of Finn, his fight scene with Phasma was weak. Very anticlimactic. 4. Leia uses the Force in a major way at the beginning of the film, yet she does nothing with The Force at the end of the film. Why set up her Force powers in a huge way if your not going to do anything with those powers in the final act? Also, why is there no scene of Leia and Kylo confronting each other on Crait? It seems very weird Leia and Kylo do not have a conversation in this movie. 5. Rey is put on the back burner in the final act of the movie for no reason. Leia could have lifted those rocks. Chewie could have picked up and rescued everyone by himself in the Falcon. Rey has no arc in this film, yet she is the main protagonist of this trilogy. 6. Luke Skywalker is a coward in this movie, which is 100% not in line with his character from the original trilogy. He faced Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine without hesitation in Return of The Jedi. Also, I don't believe for a second Luke would think to kill Ben Solo. He saved his father, Darth Vader, the second most evil person in the galaxy. Ben Solo is family. Which brings me to Leia. You're telling me Luke is not going to go help and rescue Leia in person? Especially, since he knows Kylo killed Han. I don't see how someone can look past these glaring mistakes. The more I think about this movie the more angry I get because The Force Awakens set up this trilogy really well. So much potential squandered for no real reason. This movie could have been truly special with some tweaks here and there, yet Rian Johnson decided to change or throw characters away for the sake of being "different".

[@rashawty]

Your Holdo complaint is valid but as far as "military" goes leaders are not required nor expected to share plans/ideas unless it is needed for troops to do their job. Accepting second guessing from those below you would bring things to a halt very fast. Now it would have been great if she had told him that or something along those lines for the audiences sake.

[@Sideout1000]

But Holdo knew Leia was grooming Poe to become a leader for the Resistance. Why not take him aside and tell him the plan? Makes no sense from a storytelling purpose.

[@chips4610]

the resistance were all facing death and she doesnt tell them the plan to survive. that makes them panic and the way she acted made her look like an incompetent leader imo. also it made the boring finn and rosa arc happen cause she didn't tell her plan and it made poe look dumb and pointless

[@chips4610]

imo

[@wills.8662]

Sideout1000 Your points are exceptionally valid. Especially the one about Luke changing so dramatically without an adequate narrative explanation. Everyone defending Last Jedi is really just putting on rose colored glasses and then denying that they have done so.

[@IronDuke78]

Dan, only one talking sense

[@leocmen]

+ScreenJunkies News I don't like TFA, and I don't like TLJ either. Dan is the only one who understands how we feel. TLJ is also filled with Post-modernist deconstruction of archetypes, a tone of Post-Structuralism and some veiled social agenda that does not fit in a real war scenario (Hell!! Let Chewbacca eat the Porg !! ). Diversity is welcome, and SW was always about diversity, but that is not exactly what is happening in this movie. The most strange thing in this movie, is the total disconnection of the anthology and legacy built over four decades through a huge lack of verisimilitude. Luke deserved a better fate, a better arc. (I like Taoist-Buddhist approach, that would take the story towards the Grey Jedi who found the balance between Ying & Yang and the Middle-Path, but the idea to have a coward Luke fearful of a EMO Kylo Ren, does not please me at all...).

[@GodofFrankie]

Exactly this. It makes absolutely 0 sense from the perspective of the narrative for the SAGA to all of a sudden become a self-reflexive deconstruction TWO installments from the ending. That would be like making The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises as the conclusion to the story begun by Tim Burton's Batman (and being direct sequels to Batman and Robin). It would make no sense, even given that The Dark Knight was a good movie - which Last Jedi may or may not be. Stories don't work that way -- genre-mechanic switches at the last minute? When has a good story ever done that? At least for thousands of years, no good story has ever done that. But, who knows?, maybe we'll be looking back someday at Star Wars - fucking Star Wars - being the one to redefine the mechanics of storytelling for the next hundreds of years.

[@fayt1202]

Honestly episode 9 could have 2 hours of Rey sitting on the toilet and the 3 guys on the left would defend it as the greatest thing ever

[@jomega3751]

"it was new"

[@JohnSmith-hj8kv]

"We've never seen this in star wars movie before"

[@shaynerichard6312]

"It subverts your expectations"

[@draumbok3310]

'It's only hardcore fans and robots criticising it. Rey sitting on the toilet for 2 hours was a cinematic masterpiece because it was unexpected and new.'

[@mlml1569]

"strong and powerful moment"

[@laurah.horsfall1729]

I'm not someone who spends time wondering or worrying about future SW films. I suspect being divorced from any particular plot expectations was advantageous in this case. Either way, Last Jedi got better and better as it went along, I felt. There are smallish things I would take out if I could but 90% of this film succeeded with me -- more than I anticipated. And just, Mark Hamill...he brought ALL the Old Man Luke I could have wanted in this. His performance added a ton. Really, the whole cast felt completely engaged and on point -- more than TFA, I thought.

[@aribafaheem7847]

I agree

[@joeykarate3148]

30:55 Roth's face is goddamn priceless

[@Doug_Hannon]

My biggest issue with the Finn and Rose subplot was that it created a massive plothole for no reason. The whole plot conflict is that the First Order has their evacuation ships trapped as they are fleeing and running out of fuel, yet Finn and Rose can just zip off to another planet and back? Doesn't that kind of undermine the whole "trapped" thing?

[@RicardoValero95]

Dan, the voice of reason

[@SimonHartland]

I felt pretty frustrated when leaving the cinema because of the Snoke and Rey's parents issues, however watching it again a couple of days later I found it to be a great film. Once my expectations about finding out the answers to those questions were out the window I was able to just sit back and enjoy then film. Looking forward to seeing what they do in episode 9.

[@laurah.horsfall1729]

Simon Hartland refreshing as a mountain stream, this comment is

[@LiveLXStudios]

That is one of the most fair comments I have seen yet

[@Ziggz47]

Exactly how I feel. Once you know how it plays out it lets you enjoy it more. Sitting in the theater waiting to see what every new scene is going to be about takes you actually out of it

[@blackrock316]

I don't think many of us was expecting these kinds of reactions to the last jedi. Lets go back, once the critics saw this movie and post their review on twitter and then online, everybody was getting hyped for this movie. There were a few critics I notice caution those that there are things in this movie that are going to piss off a lot of star wars fans. I don't think anybody saw that coming. Thursday night onto Friday we saw a lot of mix reactions to the movie. This movie was getting raved reviews which cause a lot of us to question, " Did we see the same thing". A lot of what Dan Murrell said is spot on because yes we wanted something different and new, its how execute it. No movie is perfect, and I notice a lot of critics are acting like this movie is a 10/10. And people trying to use Cinemascore to say " see they love the movie". Look at other movies on cinemascore and you be surprise what movies got an A that people don't like today. Am sure we all know somebody that saw the movie and is not planning on seeing it again because they didn't like it. Look at collider movie talk earlier today, Kristian points out everthing similar to Dan Murrell just talked about here on this show. Its going to be very interesting to see what the drop off is going to look like especially with the other movies coming out this weekend. I liked The Last Jedi and its not a perfect movie. Its a divisive movie, lets call it that!

[@CibiCZ]

Dan is holding back so much :D The man knows what he saw

[@bruno3]

The Force Awakens had its flaws, but I never saw it as unoriginal. It was conceived as a way of reconnecting with the fans after the shockingly bad prequels. JJ gave us great characters, such as Rey and Kylo, Poe, Finn and many others. It was a great movie, a great star wars movie. And the apparent lack of originality was not unintentional. Rian came and destroyed everything with a sledgehammer. I could accept a totally new approach in the next trilogy, but this one was special. This was our last chance to see Luke and say goodbye to good old star wars and Rian blew the whole thing off.

[@MacAisling]

I was 9 when A New Hope hit theaters. I tend to find novelizations & spinoff material hit or miss and likely to undermine whatever I got out of the original material. That proved true for the prequels as well. That said, at the time I was a prequel apologist, recognizing that, yes, they weren't particularly good, but they didn't deserve the amount of hate they were getting. In spite of it's flaws, I love The Force Awakens and find it to be a very satisfying film overall. I love every character arc in The Last Jedi, and like everything the film did, but as often as they hit me with the unexpected turn, I won't be able to tell if I'm satisfied with the film until I watch it again a year from now. The Last Jedi flipped me on my head and hit me in the feels throughout the film and I am surprised that there is any question about it being a great film. The extent to which TFA took the familiar path and TLJ took the unexpected turn makes it feel to me like it is part of a deliberate plan. And Rey's parentage is a big deal. It is a very big deal that her parents are no one. But she isn't no one, not to us.

[@jessegarrett388]

There wasn’t a plan in place, but there was an overarching vision from George Lucas. There is no overarching vision now.

[@gottesurteil3201]

Hey, I was disappointed by this film, but I don't want to waste my time hating on it. After going to the film and seeing this little girl at the theater all excited and dressed up as Rey, I don't want to be mean-spirited for the people who really liked the film. All I can say is I hope they do better with the next film, though I have my doubts.

[@kevz2474]

its not that the movie was different...it's that they missed so many opportunities.

[@Lo71987]

Dan is spot on as usual. He is always destroying those other dudes.

[@benmo3997]

i can't take the other dudes seriously as 'movie critics' i do their job better than them. filthy casuals

[@ChikoChonny]

Dan didn't say anything. He just keep repeating that he finds this movie offensive for the fans, but it seems like he has no personal opinion about the movie itself.

[@nyssane]

Great episode! I was honestly surprised to see that there are so many diehard fans against this movie. All my friends and I *loved* the surprises this movie brought (considering it's Star Wars and Disney).

[@mumblefluff]

Yeah I liked it too, and my friends did too, but we all are casual SW fans so maybe it's hardcore fans who didn't like it simply because they're so hardcore and attached to the originals.

[@vryc]

These Disney SW films will not age well because they are getting away from Lucas' original thesis. The Last Jedi just doubles down on this lack of understanding (or maybe they're doing intentionally), but either way, it reduces the 'necessary' (?) cultural impact that Star Wars has had.

[@geoffreyharris5682]

It weakened everything that came before. He degraded and debased so much of what we hold dear.

[@mumblefluff]

@@geoffreyharris5682 Maybe I'm not enough hardcore SW fan, but I liked Last Jedi. Though I kinda get why people didn't like it, but I think the outrage is a bit too crazy.. I'm wondering if any of this got to do with political views, people on the right are generally more for keeping the traditions and they don't accept change as easily sometimes, I'm just curious if it has something to do with that.

[@lplt]

that left side of the table, i'd hate to be in a conversation with them. stubborn to the end.

[@mrROBOGUTS]

they barely got to talk

[@PatientZeroPro]

Lol I would only hang out with the left. The right tries to be justice warriors for everything.

[@questaoolavo2346]

They changed compleatly the personality of luke in this movie

[@TheUnknownFiddler]

Questão olavo 30 years and regret will do that to anyone.

[@jomega3751]

Luke wouldnt try killing his nephew ever is the problem.

[@Mads97415]

I don't think it's fair to say that the hardcore fans hate TLJ. I would consider myself a hardcore star wars fan and I really enjoyed this movie and the direction this trilogy seems to be going in, and i've seen plenty of people on the internet who are also hardcore star wars fans who love it as well. Yes, I think that hardcore star wars fans are the ones who hate this movie the most, but I wouldn't say that a majority of the hardcore star wars fans hate this movie like Dan kept saying.

[@Mads97415]

Also, I think Dan might have been going a bit over board about the whole rian johnson can do what he wanted thing. That is true that Lucasfilm told rian that he could do what he wanted, but he still had to do stuff that they were going to be ok with and that would still probably work narratively for the whole trilogy. We have already seen what Lucasfilm will do if you don't do exactly what they wanted many times now. So I think it's a bit out there to say that Lucasfilm doesn't know what they are doing with these stories.

[@cybervikes12]

Luke is literally Yoda. Secluded himself. Becomes an old reluctant cranky trainer. And seems so different from the character in other films because he's supposed to. After training Luke Yoda became more like prequel, positive yoda

[@rsixx6548]

Dan Murrell, once again, nails it.

[@markcolburn1203]

Love the discussion, lots of good points and I largely agree with Dan.

[@markushamilton]

"This aint your daddys star wars" is pretty much the best way to describe this movie lmao

[@Chili_Rasbora]

It's Marvel's Star Wars.

[@DoctorXander]

It's not my Star Wars is how I'm thinking of it

[@ASullish]

Wait, so a 10 second line of dialog stating that Snoke was Darth Plaugies would have been too ham fisted, but a soldier tasting the ground to state it was salt even though it was stated minutes before hand that it was a mineral planet, WASN'T a weird scene taking viewers out of the moment?

[@mattie5106]

They are not "JUST MOVIES" they are nostalgia, they are lessons we were taught as children, they are characters we loved as much as if we knew them in real life. Don't say they're just movies, that's dismissive of how much the star wars films mean to people, myself included. I would praise the stark difference in tone, and ideas if it were in a new, unrelated trilogy. And for the record I LOVE Rian Johnson, I love Brick and Looper is one of my favourite movies, and after seeing The Last Jedi, despite my mixed at best feelings about it, it really got me excited to see his vision in a fresh trilogy. But to attach this to the other 6 movies, offer the prospect of seeing a continuation of the original trilogy we love, with the characters we love, and then making something that takes the themes of the original trilogy and poo-poos them is just heartbreaking.

[@JRutherfordF]

The Last Jedi was tone deaf. Terminator 2, Aliens and Logan are all great sequels with very different tones to their predecessors. The Last Jedi doesn't have a consistent tone within itself. Different scenes felt like they had been directed by different people. Compare Finn and Rose's casino planet scenes to the astral projection scenes between Rey and Kylo. C3PO was a very different character to Darth Vader and they had very different scenes but it felt like they were living in the same universe. TLJ almost felt like a crossover movie. I like the ideas behind TLJ. I love that Rey isn't part of a dynasty and that Snoke will always be a mystery. There were some truly iconic set pieces too. But I found myself too distracted to enjoy any of it. When you take a step back from The Last Jedi it doesn't feel like a single work.

[@pedromdcc13]

Not dismissing what you said, it all made sense. But how many times did you watch it?

[@JRutherfordF]

I've only seen it once. I considered seeing it again. I had this weird guilty feeling that this many critics couldn't be wrong.

[@pedromdcc13]

A lot of people said that, because of the first experience, where you discovering it you tend to have more extreme thoughts on it, and the second viewing, when you already know everything, you can stop an analyse better the scenes and craft of the movie. I can't say for sure because I just love it first time but... why not try. Maybe you like it, maybe you hate it more, but worth the second chance.

[@aliwolfblood7963]

Pedro Henrique if u have to watch more than once to realize if u like it or not means the movie probably wasn't that good. I've never watched a truly great movie and thought hey maybe i should see it a second time to b sure.

[@pedromdcc13]

Ali MAthi this is routine to me to every movie. Becaus 1st time I always am finding out what the movie is and stuff, but the second, an maybe 3d time I can analyse it (Script, cinematography, soud design, technical shit) and realise thing that I haven't before, refresh my memory of what was good and bad and if it really was that good and that bad. I do it every time, doesn't matter if it's Star Wars, Logan or Arrival.

[@Joker8421710]

I was totally against the snoke choice before I watched this, but after hearing some new perspectives I actually think it was a pretty great and different take.

[@andromidius]

I think it made a good point too: that Snoke doesn't matter. He's just another wannabe like Kylo was, without the actual talent to be a true successor. He tried to use intimidation like the Emperor did, and tried to turn Rey to the dark side and utterly failed. He was cocky and full of himself, and therefore never saw betrayal coming even though he knows Kylo was full of doubt.

[@Orisha1990]

30:46 that face you make when joe star is talking out of his ass.

[@taylormadetactics7251]

its not hat they killed snoke off its just the way they did it its not that they got rid of the mentor student link with luke/rey & snoke/kylo its the way they did it its not the fact they killed han off its the way the did it, for pretty much no reason its the way they did it you get the idea !!!

[@andromidius]

I think it was good, in retrospect. An unexpected turn, but not to the light side, and showing that anyone can die.

[@teddymark4324]

taylormadetactics Han had to be killed off... Harrison Ford wouldn't have done the film otheriwse. He wanted the character killed off in ESB.

[@kajal091s]

Here's the thing, when you always do the unexpected then it becomes the expected.

[@GodofFrankie]

It's all in the execution. People complain about these movies for WHAT they're doing when it's the HOW that's actually the problem.

[@younglee1168]

You're perfectly right. This is the director's fault. Also why bring the old cast back if the only thing Disney's going to do with them is kill them off, which was also very disrespectful the way it handled. Why rely on the fame of the characters from the original trilogy if Disney wants to do something new with the Star Wars franchise?

[@JodysCorner]

when Dan is on another level and the rest of the panel just makes jokes and accepts/doesnt understand that they threw star wars down the toilet with trashing characters, making terrible scripts, and trash villains..... Dan needs his own channel.

[@JakeEstesFilmmaker]

Dan is the most articulate and eloquent screen junkie.

[@stephaniehaase5682]

Dan totally rocks.

[@CubbieBlue902]

“Terrible scripts.” Is this your first time watching Star Wars?

[@margarethafalco63]

Jody's Corner For me Kylo is the only interesting new character. I wish Ray would not be a Mary Sue :/

[@jamesargenta1946]

exepeted he resorted to yelling for no reason and makeing staments that were un resarched like how jj had nothing to do with trilogy or the fans were harsh

[@JakeEstesFilmmaker]

Expectations aside, you failed to mention awkward dialogue, shaky performances, poor comedic timing, bad pacing and pointless sub plots. I'm more angry about the bad storytelling going in this film than the subverting of expectations. DO THIS AGAIN and let me hear Spencer defend Rian's screen writing... I'm all ears.

[@shotbynolan1705]

Jake Estes exactly those are legitimate criticism of the film. spencer couldn’t even convince me that he believes anything he said.

[@dank2171]

its not godfather. i loved every performance. every character displayed complex emotions outside of finn. more poe and rey and less finn make for vetter movie. Adam driver delivers a perfect conflicted character. It's okay for characters to be akward at times it creates a more real life character. people who go to film school and understand more about the indrustry than ether of us didn't seem to have these complaints. You just want to hate or don't understand comedic timing. You can say some jokes were stupid or prongs were cash grab and I won't argue but the timing was spot on. Subplots of finn and rose is sometimes your plans don't always work. maybe scratching a little deeper will make you understand some of the point to some sub plots.

[@ericmicke4130]

This was the best conversation about this movie I have seen yet. Thank you all of you. I'm with Joe and Spencer on this. But mostly I'm just glad that you all had so much to say like you really care as Star Wars fans. Sometimes it sounds like you guys wish we didn't have any big star wars or comic book or fantasy movies around.

[@jasonappleby1746]

A small minority of people being vocal? RT audience score is not that easy to manipulate. Many of my friends disliked it. How can you defend a movie that literally pretends TFA doesn't exist. Has massive plot holes, pointless characters, explains nothing, changes the personalities of major characters. A star wars movie owes something to star wars fans.

[@marconeves1979]

I don't think it's a "bad" movie per say but I will admit that, in my opinion, it has a lot of incoherent things in it. While putting the blame on fans for speculating about the pay offs we were sort of asked to anticipate in Force Awakens, isn't completely fair, and not something I could truly bash the movie for, I will say that some of these answers have led to bigger critical problems. Maybe Snoke getting killed wouldn't be an issue, if they hadn't asked audiences to care about how Kylo Ren turned to the Dark side (we still don't know how Snoke got to him). Ultimately I think what turned his death into a fault was that he was effectively denied of ever being a fleshed out character (or character in general) and instead demoted to a plot device to bring Rey and Ren together for the fight scene. Another logic flaw I've found is in the throwing away of Luke's lightsaber as soon as Rey gives it to him. And this has nothing to do with the character but rather what they set up and established in Episode 7. There was a map that was used as a mcguffin to find Luke Skywalker in the Force Awakens. The idea was that we would find the map and go get Luke in order to fight against the First Order. But this doesn't make any sense in The Last Jedi, because Luke state's that he went to Ach-To to literally die. If this is true (it is) than why would he send a map in two separate pieces for people to assemble and locate him? I've heard some say that the map that lead to Luke wasn't sent out by him...but who else would do it? And if somebody else knows where he is...well that makes even less sense. Than of course there is the Canto Bight stuff along with the odd humour and weird part where the First Order should've blasted Finn and Rose while they were chilling right next to the walkers, but those are already discussed enough. I want to say I don't think it's a "bad" movie but I do think that critically it isn't being put through a solid logic test. Personally I think it's a 4/5 or maybe a 3 and a half. And that's just me being objective about the film's quality....now subjectively? I'd be lying if I didn't say how much I felt betrayed by Luke in this movie. I really felt this one and think it kind of altered my opinion on a hero forever...subjectively the movie didn't just kill Luke Skywalker on screen, it also killed what he meant to me. And I think that's a massive commercial problem they will struggle with from now on. It isn't objectively bad (even though one wonders "why" this character was so drastically altered, and not just because of the passage of time) but I can honestly say that Episode 8, for me at least, is one Star Wars movie I will remember as being depressing as hell.

[@jocelynn19871]

I will have respectfully disagree with you about Luke. I loved that he became a different man and that he almost flat out refuses to do anything to help. 30 years has passed he hasn’t really been in tune with the force if his failure with Kylo Ren hasn’t changed him than his character would have stayed very 1 dimensional and would not have moved the narrative along and frankly would have been boring. And if you remember Yoda also went into exile and became bitter and cynical and refused at first to train Luke.

[@albertoescoto2139]

Spencer / Joe vs. Dan... on this topic... next movie fight!

[@chriss45435]

it would be a totally 1 sided fight for Dan, like it was here...

[@greysun7020]

Luke...The hero whom we all loved, the legendary one who opposed an entire empire resting on the shoulders of his own father and because of the power of love...topples... This is such a powerful contrast to Luke just being a very skilled and immensely powerful Jedi, ultimately it was his love that brought down the empire. These movies are literally about love and hate, the pure of heart vs the wicked of heart. Luke's love overshadowed everything and overcame everything that tried to destroy him and his family. Why would he not be jaded by this time of TLJ. He has lost everything, most of his friends and family are dead, all his great mentors are dead, he has been betrayed and used and what he fought so hard to defeat is back on the rise, by the hands of his own blood. Luke has reached the end of the hero's journey, there is nothing left, nothing he will do matters, the force does what it wills to do and Luke has realized the truth, they are all pawns being played by this thing called the force and all there is left to do is walk away from it all and just let it play out as it wills. The legendary hero dissapears and remains a legend and is immortalized in time forever.

[@sergueileonardoafonin7950]

drama, try it from time to time, not the same stuff over and over

[@JernosComicsPopCulture]

How was the good and evil in the originals "black and white?" Anakin was pure and the "chosen one" who was seduced by evil, who was able to reach deep and find the good again. How is that black and white? There is a very deep and complex understanding of how we all balance good and evil inside of us. Anyone who thinks it as black and white isn't understanding the complexity that truly exists. I don't need a movie that does random non-cohesive crap just for shock value to seemingly perceive something as "deep."

[@lc6190]

if it was any other movie, all the panellists would agree with Dan. all of a sudden, the criticisms that other movies face go out the window for this movie. becaue Disney and Rian Johnson do it, it's genius? I find it slightly confusing and even hypocritical that movies do not get the same level of treatment from reviewers. Dan provides a refreshing and honest perspective on this movie.

[@LiveLXStudios]

Your argument is literally that people can only disagree with you because they're delusional Now that is delusional

[@lc6190]

LX hahaha. nice one. i'm not saying they're delusional. i'm saying they're not giving movies the same level of care Dan does.

[@ExciteHike]

When did they say because Disney did it, it's genius? Or just because it had Rian's name on it? Just because they disagree you're assuming they had ulterior motives - that's the death of film discussion.

[@thestoiccatholic7012]

Agreed, I c

[@lxcarr.3662]

I disagree, the movie is genious itself. As Spencer said, it makes great thematic statements. Its not that Rian Johnsos discarded some plot questions, instead he made the answers according to some thematic schemes he had. For example, Rey's lineage wasnt discarded, it just plays with the "everyone can make the difference and be part of the resisstance against oppression" them. Snoke´s death was wonderful also, cause it makes him kind of a Wizard of Oz character who appeared to be more powerful than what he really was just to be able to manipulate Kylo and to control the first order. And unlike what Dan says this changes do not go against what hardcore fans are supposed to like. For example, Snokes death is also reminicen of most of the sith lords deaths in hands of their apprentices who betrayed them to gain power. The real problem about this movie is the same that comics or other media like this have, the "fanboys" have different expectations and only want to see what they have made up in their heads. It doesnt matter anymore if the creators make an interesting, thoughtful, and beautiful artistic proposal...

[@nihad-m]

I'm with Spencer and Joe. This movie is telling us literally let go of the past. Subversion of expectations is what makes great storytelling. The fans had it their way in the originals and TFA, it's OK that everything doesn't go in ways they expect them to and ruffle up their feathers. Also not everyone in star wars have to be a "somebody" Anakin wasn't. This movie gave respect to all the characters in such a beautiful way, and reminded us that they are humans. That is what is important.

[@wills.8662]

Nihad O.o Please turning Luke from someone who would risk everything to save someone from the dark side to a person who would just say I'm going to kill the son of my beloved sister because he's showing dark side tendencies is lazy writing without enough narrative explaination. If you think this movie provides that explanation then you're slobbing this movies knob like an obsequious fanboi

[@eldemente87]

Will S. He didn’t wanna kill him, he had that thought PRECISELY because of what happened with Vader, another Empire. Which in the end happened because of his fears of history repeating itself which explains his current behavior of exile and not wanting to train Jedi. The problem is that the fanbois as you call them wanted a 60 year Luke trashing stuff and doing flips like he were Yoda, prequel territory. Which is something I’ll be forever grateful to Rían Johnson for not doing.

[@laurah.horsfall1729]

Nihad O.o Well put. I suspect execs knew some of these elements would be (everyone's favorite word) divisive but appreciated that a kind of overt breaking from the past is necessary for the future of these films.

[@AlexandraM689]

For the hundredth time Anakin being literally conceived by the Force itself makes him damn unique, in his case no special parentage is needed, Rey as far as we know isn't, not only is she a nobody but no Force involvement happened regarding her birth as a explanation of her abilities and potential, so actual question of the source of her potential still remains unknown, this film just dismissed all fan theories about her parentage as a explanation behind it and nothing more

[@AJ_Jingco]

+Will S. The Last Jedi doesn't explain JACK SHIT what happened between Return of the Jedi to The Force Awakens you need books, movies, graphic novels, comics etc. To comprehend what happened in 30 years Disney Star Wars isn't CAPABLE of explaining what happened in the 30 years time gap between Return of the Jedi to The Force Awakens!

[@AstartesGaming]

Star Wars: The Last McGuffin

[@obliviouz]

Oh you can be sure that it's far from the last one...

[@ByrdHakeem]

best comment bro

[@chesterfumblenutts6935]

AstartesGaming McGuffin Wars

[@GorthMohogany]

Instead, we actually did get a lot of re-hashing of Empire Strikes Back: 1) The First Order has already taken over (stated in intro). 2) The resistance (now rebellion?) is in flight. 3) There is a seige on a planet, stylistically similar to Hoth, with the empire using walkers and the resistence using smaller, inferior hovering craft. 4) Main protagonist on a remote planet attempting to get training with a mentally disturbed master. All of these points taken in isolation are fine, but combined make it look like they borrowed too heavily from Empire Strikes Back. They could have removed point 1 and at least changed point 3 to be a city seige with capital ships and fighters on both side and it would have been different enough. On top of that, The Last Jedi had really convoluted and jarring plots. 1) An X-wing singlehandedly destroying all of the surface weapons on a super capital ship that had not only its own fighter bays, but supporting star destroyers that had their own fighter compliments.... It completely removed the feeling that these enemy ships were dangerous. 2) Using slow bombers with gravity bombs that should have been canon fodder for the supporting Star destroyers that literally did NOTHING the entire movie. They should have involved the star destoyers in the fight and therefore re-thought out these bombers. Maybe use faster B-wings, Y-wings, or a new faster bomber. 3) Again, supporting star destroyers that literally did NOTHING the entire movie. 4) The continued trope showing the bad guys as severely incompetant makes you question how they are ever a threat in the first place. If they portrayed the villains, even down to the un-named ship captains and some stormtroopers, it would add more weight to the protagonist's victorys, defeats, and struggles, and add credibility to why the enemy is dangerous. This could be yet another way of adding originality to Star Wars because the series is often guilty of this problem. 5) A linear chase scene, in space, at sublight speeds where the persuers have hyperspace drives. This was a mojor sticking point for me because this fact destroyed my suspension of belief and it ruined all of the other subplots. 6) A linear chase scene that is not in any way visually depicted as so fast that fighters and bombers could not keep up. Smaller ships like the space yacht Finn et all hypered in to the chase and made it look like they were approching almost stationary ships. Whenever a rebel ship drifted after running out of power, it only slowly drifted into range. I know that Star Wars does not usually take physics into account, but if a plot point is that you are moving at such high speeds that fighters cannot be involved, then you need to visualize that. 7) The mutiny and all of the subplots associated with it felt like a waste of time, because in the end, it could have all been prevented by Holdo telling Po what the plan was. It seemed like the subplots were aimed soley to deliver political/and or social commentary more than anything else. I'm fine with portaying the universe as a dangerous and hypocritical place (Rogue One did something similar), but it was done in a such a simplistic and childish manner that would have been conveyed in a kid's show like Star Wars Rebels. Its execution just didn't seem to fit in at all with the more adult themed overtones of the movie. I think part of that might be that Rose, who drove that point, seems like a characiture pulled straight out of a kid's show like Star Wars Rebels.

[@rozen1215]

Dan is spot on

[@Saxtalk.]

I fell like You Tube critics don't wanna trash the movie for the sake of losing subscribers and potencial future views

[@fyorbane]

The 3 guys on the left are blind to what Dan was trying to get across.

[@Doug_Hannon]

I completely agree with Dan. You can change the game narratively without making it a joke. Luke can say, "I cannot train you" without chucking the lightsaber in a flippant punchline. We can see a extended flashback or force vision or whatever where Rey sees her parents and comes to the painful realization that her parents are not significant and discarded her, without it just being a throw-a-way line from Kylo. It is possible to make the same plot without seeming to disrespect audience expectations. When YOU as the storyteller (lucasfilm and Abrams admittedly) set up the expectations, they require a certain amount of respect and treatment.

[@KarolinaK00]

I'm with Spencer on this one. I have loved star wars since I was a kid but lately I was definitely feeling star wars/death star fatigue and this movie pulled me back in a major way. Cannot wait to see where we go from here. Bit worried about JJ directing the third one though, it would be such a bummer if he just went ahead and rewrote some of Johnson's vision.

[@rightwingersexposed8800]

Vocal minority? I have yet to speak to any of my friends who did not feel disappointed at the end. Let's stop pretend that only a "vocal" minotirty dislikes the movie.

[@mk6rfc1]

why is it only the audience score on RT thats mixed then? every other source seems to be a positive consensus

[@jomega3751]

Not everyone will go out of there way to post there feedback.

[@dhruvmashru5449]

the critic score is created by collecting some 300+ critc reviews the audience score is a combination of 100 thousand+ fans , that's not a vocal minority , that's a general opinion of the movie being bad

[@mk6rfc1]

+Dhruv Mashru yes but anyone can go on RT and vote as an audience score, even if they havent seen the movie

[@dhruvmashru5449]

you know if the movie has made over 500 mil already that a good number of people have seen the movie

[@dwigs]

Dan was on point. The girl was on the fence. The other 3 didn't know what they were talking about.

[@EvilDeadDave1]

Chewbaca seems to be having a pretty decent life.