Is the US Church guilty of Trump idolatry? Shane Claiborne vs Johnnie Moore

[@alanclark9326]

Not all churches but for sure the evangelicals; they’ve been off track from the days of daddy Falwell.

[@ronaldparish4521]

Amen!

[@jeffreypaulross9767]

Amen bro!

[@dennisconrad6124]

Totally agree. Their Trump worship is a travesty. I don’t even consider them real Christians.

[@rudyjimenez1689]

Alan Clark A.K.A. Sewer beaver!!!

[@alanclark9326]

@@rudyjimenez1689 lol sorry there mouth breather I didn’t mean to step on toes. Talking snake, virgin birth, living in a fish.........what other mythology do you deeply believe in? Flat earth maybe?

[@wleebraz]

Politics out of the church and the church out of politics. "My kingdom is not of this world."

[@jwatson181]

Agreed. Why would the church be against murdering babies?

[@wleebraz]

@@jwatson181 Is that sarcasm? If it is not the answer is in the Bible, "You shall not murder."If it is sarcasm, we are in this world but not of it. We should not dirty ourselves by participating in the dirty business of politics. How can we change the hearts of men by using worldly methods?

[@jwatson181]

@@wleebraz Why would we dirty ourselves by being against murder? I am not sure if your entire post is sarcasm. We should vote for the best candidate political candidate. Your argument if followed seriously would suggest we should not even vote or enter the political process.

[@wleebraz]

@@jwatson181 I am not sarcastic by quoting scripture. I am done with this. There are no GOOD candidates. Good Bye and look up the origin of GOODBYE as well as the scriptures that I have quoted.

[@jwatson181]

@@wleebraz There are candidates that are better in a relative way. I would not continue the conversation either if I had to defend your position. The fact is without religion, one can not establish morality. Your religion should guide your conscience in voting.

[@Susieq26754]

Shane is spot on. Johnny is weak and unconvincing.

[@jkm9332]

Shane only gave overgeneralizations and oversimplifications. Johnnie seemed to better understand the complexity of all of this.

[@rmac2489]

That was an excellent discussion and I appreciate all sides. My concern is and has always been that Christians have put themselves under the authority of a man who claims to be a Christian and behaves in such an un-Christ like manner - mocking people, calling people names, firing anyone who disagrees with him, lying, no one knows better than him and so on. Character matters, integrity is critical. When we bear the name of Christ we are His representatives in the world - period.

[@lenicachambers8368]

Amen!

[@eugeniocorpuz8338]

They support a criminal and grifter. Also he has lied over 30,000 times while president. Obviously not Christian traits.

[@longstridemills9989]

Those are lies from the media.

[@rmac2489]

@@longstridemills9989 it is not a lie that he has been married 3 times it is not a lie he accused a person who was born in the US of being born elsewhere and it is not a lie that his "university" was a scam. The man is a fraud - always has been and always will be and there are plenty of gullible people like yourself that he can continue to scam!

[@nyambsdeborah8954]

@@rmac2489 but are we picking a president based on his PERSONALITY or his POLICIES...like..??

[@TheTylerNCC]

Man, Johnnie never quite got the point that this conversation was about the church and not about politics.

[@prazup49]

One evangelical Pastor said, “If you don’t vote for trump you are not a Christian”. Come on, words matter.

[@tannerwhetzel]

“Racism didn’t get worse, it got exposed” -Shane Wow. Powerful perspective. Thanks for the conversation Justin.

[@4knewt505]

absolutely. I knew who in my work had quiet thoughts about race but it became emboldened over the last 4 years. It has been scary for some of us.

[@jwatson181]

It is not powerful but it is stupid. You can not point to any data that supports this position.

[@4knewt505]

@@jwatson181 you have to be able to accept the first-hand accounts. It doesn't have to be scientific data to be accurate. Accuracy is also based on primary sources that are verified. But you have to be willing to not go last your own bias. There are people who have maintained racism is and was still happening in the last 10 years but it has become emboldened by evidence of increased activity. It happened in my home town.

[@jwatson181]

@@4knewt505 anecdotal data is historically unreliable. Not to mention, the claim is that racism is just as bad as the past. How do you establish that without using survey/scientific tools?

[@nneoma3677]

@@jwatson181 whats the point speaking about research or evidence. Even if it was laid out in front of you (which it has been, you only have to look)....You still won't believe because you don't want to believe.

[@joyh.729]

Shane nailed it here!🌟🌟🌟🌟

[@sdb6757]

Disappointed in Johnny Moore. After everything, he’s still trying to defend Trump. And a very feeble attempt at that.

[@jwatson181]

Maybe he just supports not murdering babies. I assume Shane likes to drink their blood for sport.

[@lestariabadi]

Can see in his wide eyes the duality in him. He is obviously the spin doctor for the Christian community.

[@marywensae7489]

Johnnie is one of Trump supporters, can’t you see that

[@jwatson181]

@@marywensae7489 maybe he just doesn't like baby murder?

[@LisaLisa-qo8gt]

@@jwatson181 I plead the precious blood of Jesus over your hate-filled hardened heart. Psalms 139:23 and 24 Psalms 51:10

[@spencercapier2258]

It seems like the fellow spends a lot of time saying he’s not saying something, and then goes ahead and says it. The blind spot of American white evangelicals is astonishing.

[@AnonymOus-dp3jj]

What blindspot?

[@mcmemmo]

@@AnonymOus-dp3jj The spot where Jesus stands.

[@kailabrockington4507]

The fact that we even have to have this conversation should give you the answer.

[@CKD3332]

exactly my answer, i dont even need to watch this video.

[@MsBeloved89]

haha most ppl at my church are drinking up anything Trump says and all the conspiracies. It's lunacy. We have been played by our own biased news as well. Stay away from Fox News.

[@deborahadeniji808]

Question: How can we as Bible-believing Christians effectively deal with this dilemma: A believer in the sanctity of life and marriage between man and woman, but questionable in character; or one who does have a pretty decent character, but is against what Gods word says about marriage, the family and human life?

[@TasX]

@@deborahadeniji808 that’s the issue the church leadership always likes to go back to, but there’s also a problem of believing information perpetrated by either groups, or following a train of thought (ideology) of groups, and becoming so involved in some person (idolizing as a celebrity)

[@johnstanp9692]

​@@deborahadeniji808 Why must your choice be binary ? Doesn't it bother you that you can only choose between two candidates, always from the same two parties ? Is the world manichean ? You're either "red" or "blue" ? By the way who is the one who was caught saying that women should be grabbed by their ******* and has allegedly had a sexual relation with a porn star ? Joe Biden or Donald Trump ?

[@sundaymorris2480]

Johnny, be realistic and stop making excuses with words. Speak the truth and don't minimize the truth. Who encouraged these people to move on the Capitol. GOP leaders are still making excuses for this president's actions...what is being thought to our children?

[@JW-yk1of]

What's being taught to the children? American ethics, that's what. This is nothing new.

[@GODSPEAKS898]

This is an easy question to answer, ABSOLUTELY!!!! I don’t like to put labels on myself, I am a Christian pure and simple.

[@equinoxproject2284]

Johnny is trying to walk a line where stepping over it will affect his potential paycheck....in my opinion.

[@JohnGwan]

You've said it perfectly. This is the simple truth.

[@equinoxproject2284]

@@JohnGwan It not a surprise I got the vibe off of JM. He is a PR guy that was trained at liberty university and now runs a PR/ consulting firm that smooths over scandals at Christian organizations.

[@JohnGwan]

@@equinoxproject2284 hahaha that absolutely makes sense. He has that vibe. He seems not to have any absolute right or wrong... everything is relative for him.

[@JesusLovesBest]

One has a forked tongue and spins like a washing machine...there should be no excusing the worship (idolatry) of any man in a true Christian's response.

[@DMWB57]

Johnny reeks of insincerity. His talking pts are bizarre and my bullcrap meter was going off the entire time he talked. FYI- It IS the time to discuss everything this man has revealed but also destroyed. Families and friendships utterly destroyed bc of Trump. Mine included.

[@JW-yk1of]

Funny how similar he sounds to the talking heads on conservative media outlets...🤔

[@ronaldparish4521]

Agreed. And funny!

[@Hereigns62]

Plus he has that stupid grin on his face while he spews nonsense.

[@altheastlouisjames1098]

Shane has hit the nail on the head.Racism must be corrected first before moving on

[@jamesellis701]

Why is Trump racist? Is it because he wanted segregation cause in his words " I don't want my kids growing up in a racial jungle"? or because he authored a crime bill that locked blacks up in record numbers? Or for speaking at the funeral of his mentor Robert Byrd, who was a recruiter for the KKK?

[@signposts6189]

And who exactly us going to do the correcting and why are they the privileged ones to do it above all others?

[@louevans6535]

The church has lost it's touch with reality.

[@solmagbanua1992]

The church should have separated itself from politics but a lot of evangelical pastors endorsed Trump as the chosen hence encouraged the fanatical obsession and loyalty to Trump, Trump by himself will not succeed but the overwhelming stance of this pastors towards Trump made this . It reminds me of Pharisees and sadducees during the time of Jesus where the mob who crucified our savior were incited by this religious people.

[@glorfindelchocolateflowery6392]

Yes a lot of people forget is was two of the groups not just one that killed Jesus christ

[@4knewt505]

@@glorfindelchocolateflowery6392 wow, so true

[@jwatson181]

The church should be against murdering babies and should vote for people that do not support it.

[@glorfindelchocolateflowery6392]

@@jwatson181 the chruch should also vote for people who dont put kids in cages

[@jwatson181]

@@glorfindelchocolateflowery6392 You mean like Obama and Biden when they build the cages? I agree this should have been a disqualifier for Biden running. I am glad to see some thinking people. Did you know Biden and Obama deported more people than Trump? Sadly, none of this is reported.

[@4knewt505]

I've been saying this for a long time that it's idolatry. When I say it some of my fellow Christians grow eerily silent. If we are are talking about following a party that has Christian values, all the world sees are Trump flags and people wearing him, not uplifting Christ. It's been a distraction from the beginning. What happened to spreading the gospel and loving our neighbors even if we disagree? It's idolatry.

[@Vonnie777]

They wave flags bigger than my king sized sheets and never once waved a flag for Jesus. This is a golden calf Ministry worshipping a man. Putting a man before the country. They are really not Christians. They profess but don't posses!

[@signposts6189]

So what if all the world sees are Trump flags? When does the world ever want to see Christ? People showing their support for some one running for public office shouldn't be confused with idolatry just because you don't like who they support.

[@bill8489]

Going silent is their defense. You can’t have a one-sided conversation, so if they go mute, the discussion dies.

[@andrewcramer9200]

​@SignPosts it becomes idolatry when you observe the rationale and behavior. As another conservative pastor, Chad Wagner, put it: Christians criticized Obama yet ignored or praised Trump for doing the same things, to wit: immoral drone strikes of innocent civilians in the middle east; racking up trillions in debt; spending almost an entire year total playing golf. Trump also flat-out blasphemed repeatedly, declaring no need for forgiveness, extolling the virtue of crushing revenge against anyone who crosses him, using violent profanity all throughout his campaign and then having the audacity to pose with a Bible in front of a church. His personal pastrix, Paula White-Cain, stood on a church stage and giggled while her 2nd husband, Jonathan Cain told a congregation to watch porn to strengthen their marriage. Disturbing. The church is told to reject Trump for all of these things, including his association with flaming heretics. It isn't that complicated.

[@roxee57]

No unity before accountability

[@thomaskorah4115]

Fantastic conversation. I've rarely heard a Christian in Americs speak as much sense as Shane did. While I really didn't understand the point Johnnie was making half the time.

[@trybunt]

Seemed to me that Johnnie was walking a fine line of carefully talking to the Trump base without making then become defensive of their beliefs and stop listening.

[@jeremywilliams3465]

He is one of the Brothers who in his testimony, and books, have inspired and given light to my home coming to Church after years of leaving.

[@jasonwhite6463]

It is quite hard to make sense when you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. John and his kind are frauds.

[@deeparker1639]

Agreed !! Towing the “base” line !! So sad. Shane is a breath of fresh air !! Sober in Thought !!

[@josephinebournes8212]

By U.S. Christian, you're specifically referring to white conservatives. I am American. I am black. I am Christian. I am baffled that any Christian would align themselves with trump and extreme American conservative politics.

[@rratedmotorcyclerides]

Excellent debate topic .. unfortunately, the US church has chosen to drink the Trump wine but turned out to be Koolaid. Shane really nails (poor pun) what Christianity is about. The US constitution separates religion and government but not when power and votes are concerned.

[@MrMirville]

If at least Trump had produced a decent popular wine.

[@anubiasnku140]

What of Joe Biden ?, I guess he is perfect.

[@PabloEscobar-ez8zr]

i hope you didnt vote for joe biden cuz this is bad and its only been 6 months

[@norrisbethke7770]

I’m an evangelical and was shocked that so many evangelicals (some in my church and family also) would vote for chrump, it’s very apparent that they have no spiritual discernment..I’ve told many that they’ve turned chrump into an idol..and the 74M that voted for him was a show of ignorance..and worse are the repub politicians that mimic him..being president was far out of his league..I would challenge him to a SAT or IQ test

[@coreyfuller9345]

Policies with Israel and moving the embassy to Jerusalem, Right to life for for unborn babies, Improving treatment of Veterans vs the Iran deal, murdering unborn babies and not taking care of veterans the way they should be. There is so much more.

[@coralsky-o3h]

Or a Citizenship test.

[@LisaLisa-qo8gt]

Amen.

[@norrisbethke7770]

@@moorefamily7202 People that speak the truth are, like you say, despised, rejected, crucified, or beheaded

[@OceanRoadbyTonyBaker]

Shane is a straight talker. Johnnie less so.

[@MichaelCollins-js5kq]

YES THE CHURCH IS GUILTY....THIS IS THE REASON I LEFT FUNDAMENTALISM

[@joedefrancia784]

This is what Demon posession looks like ! U cant serve two masters

[@trybunt]

Wow, reading these comments as an Australian is mind blowing. Its honestly sad how cult like some people can be, and just pointing to the other side and saying "they are the cult" doesn't stop your own side from holding dogmatic views. This looks like a war of misinformation. It's sad. Honestly and heartbreakingly sad.

[@RAFAEL27769]

US Churchianity is not Christianity.

[@steevrawjers]

amen these are just bunch of christian jokes in my book lol and not very funny either

[@glorfindelchocolateflowery6392]

Please say it louder for the people in the back

[@Vonnie777]

It is called Christian Nationalism!

[@dollymadison2397]

That's a very unfair & untrue broad brush you're painting. I'm a devout bible-based slave of Christ. There's tons of different doctrines of Christianity in the USA..but that's the case for EVERYWHERE, I'm pretty sure. Not all Christians fell for the Trump Cult. BTW: The "Christians" you see on TV are mostly, if not all, Charlatins. Please don't judge us all based on what I see on TV. My friend from the Philippines thought everyone here lived like what she saw on soap operas- everyone is rich & beautiful....she quickly realized that's not representative of the very vast majority.

[@steevrawjers]

I AGREE churchianity is not christianity christianity is christianity

[@sheilam1130]

Shane is a wise follower of Jesus. His work speaks of his love for Jesus. Keep up the good work. Unfortunately there are many pharisees and wolves who are holding positions in the church.

[@srourfamily]

Shane is awesome the another guy is weak

[@Mrgray94]

A Pharisee is in fact anyone who is Jewish. The Pharisees I assume you are talking about are the Pharisees who stuck by Torah doctrine over the Son of Man?

[@christophergarrud5261]

Whatever their theological underpinning or the faith expressed by individual evangelical Christians, it is patently clear that American evangelical Christianity, particularly as espoused by the megachurches (where there are other significant concerns), is becoming indistinguishable from American Republican politics and the American perception of personal freedom. The American dream drives Evangelical Christian life and theology, not the other way round. Hard to see how He who gave us the Beatitudes could ever approve of His church supporting a leader called Trump.

[@Realist-sh3dg]

Christopher Garrud , Possibly desperation. They are the most authoritarian and punitive organization in America and their numbers are evaporating, they saw the same qualities in Trump and he became their messiah.

[@paulawagstaff686]

Becoming, where have you been the last 2 decades??

[@rufinoabrigana2071]

Evangelical doesn't know exactly what is the power of our God Jesus Christ. Dont use the name of our God for bad ideas.

[@thegeorgianna]

Shane hits the nail on the head. I’ve always wondered about that too! I don’t need a mask because God will protect me, but I need a gun. There is definitely an obsession with guns that I can’t understand, the groups being discussed intersects largely here. I disagree with Johnnie, saying that those who are asking for accountability before unity, that it’s asking for uniformity. Facts are not debatable. We need to agree only on the facts, then we can talk opinion. If one side chooses to spread and support lies and conspiracy theories, we can’t unite. He said Joe should choose people who voted for trump but majority still believe election was stolen. I don’t see how they can work together without reconciling those issues first.

[@StevenDavisPhoto]

The White American church is. Yes. Thankfully non-whites mostly didn't buy it. Shane is amazing. He is living as a disciple of Jesus more than most folks I know. His choice to live in radical love and voluntary poverty is so inspriing.

[@LisaLisa-qo8gt]

Amen.

[@tmpolk3833]

This is why the Evangelical Church cannot move forward, they have Mr. Moore's thinking. The divide will only get much wider.

[@migsteele]

Johnnie is so slimy, dodging questions like a politician, twisting the narrative.

[@yayalekan3602]

Yes, he says everybody plays part in what happened.

[@pamelafranklin3452]

Without accountability their can be no unity

[@jebushcrist]

I'll help everybody out here. YES, the religious fundamentalists did

[@jackriddle4017]

In what way?

[@m.e.1367]

Fundamentalist means going back to the fundamentals. This wasn't fundamentalism. This was about supporting a false messianic figure, based on hearsay and wild imaginings.

[@doulos5815]

The fundamentals ban all idolatry, true fundamentalists aren’t trump worshiping pagans

[@steevrawjers]

lol christian jokes lolllll

[@jackriddle4017]

Then I guess the same could be said about Obama supporters.

[@dolorazajick920]

How in any way does Trump represent Christianity? Turn the other cheek? Forgive your enemies? Love your enemy? Feed the least of these? .....This is who you choose to fight your cause? By their fruits you will know them.

[@babygirltdi]

Exactly! There's nothing Godly about him and these "Christians " that follow him blindly can't be real. Just like this man on this platform. He's praising DT not God! I don't know what's wrong with people. If anything he's the Antichrist. He's definitely not here to save the world with a demonic cult following.

[@kameelffarag]

It is hard to hear an evangelical use the word but, when there should be a full stop for what is wrong and evil.

[@fauxtography1018]

I was an evangelical preacher for 20 years. I walked away from the church 3 years ago because of our response to Trump.

[@mazza8408]

I'm so sorry i understand I really do this is coming from a genuine place as a black Christian who has struggled with this for a few years Christ will redemm his church darkness comes before dawn reformation will happen

[@song4night]

The smiling guy seems fake

[@fauxtography1018]

@@song4night- I'm not sure what you're saying.

[@griseldacampos2840]

I would strongly urge(genuine desire) that you consider coming back to the church. Important to always remember we must keep our eye on God not man. We are called to be light to the world and not to flow with the current of the world or with idolatry in the church. That must be challenged yet we also must attempt to understand why some.people may have supported him(though again idolatry is never understandable biblically speaking).

[@gareth2736]

Well Christianity is either true or it isn't. Jesus rose from the dead or he didn't. If he did you shouldn't abandon the church no matter how off track it gets politically, if he didn't there is no point in the church regardless of how correct it is politically.

[@reallymariah894]

Shows who fast they will follow the Antichrist.

[@jessik6704]

Thank you Shane for your wise words! Amen!

[@CFCMahomet]

Would love to know how Johnny feels about how Trump is complicit in the human rights violations in both Saudi Arabia and Russia. I also also love to know how he feels about a nation of immigrants being anti-immigration.

[@gulanhem9495]

@jason schifo Is there a natural law that says that anyone must be allowed to move to the United States? Is that in the Constitution? Can't people change their minds? Is it wrong to be against open borders and illegal migrants? Can't people make a rational evaluation and figure out that the Republican party has practically zero chance to win future elections if millions of illegal immigrants are not only allowed to enter but also made US citizens and likely will vote for the Democrats?

[@andrewcramer9200]

​@@gulanhem9495 except many immigrants are catholic and opposed to things like abortion. So you are actually disenfranchising people who probably would actually be more sympathetic then you think if you would stop labeling them all dangerous drug-fueled criminals 🤣

[@primarisgainssbbg3038]

There is a reason that religion and politics should be separate from one another. If your message can be diluted by the politics, you loose your identity.

[@keithbossard9022]

I'm seeing that many are looking at Trump from the start like the disciples looked at Christ in Acts 1:6-8 when they asked Jesus would he at this time (in so many words) make Israel great again. Think about that. Some are even saying Trump will come again in 2024. Where is our focus?

[@luciansmith7843]

What a stark difference between the two Christian men. Shane was quite clear that it was Jesus who is the standard and the goal for shaping his thinking. He pointed out that Christlike character, morals, and integrity seemingly are a thing of the past. If it wasn’t stated by the host I wouldn’t have even known that Johnnie was a Christian. His contribution to this discussion embarrassingly very little.

[@taustad23]

100 percent accurate.

[@CB-hb1jv]

I don't need a mask because God is gonna protect me, but I need a gun. Statement of the year!

[@janealexander1737]

Thanks Shane and Johnny, what you’ve shared has given me much hope for the future of the U S A 🙏🙏

[@ronaldparish4521]

Evangelicals have no credibility. And will remain so until Jesus becomes Lord in their thoughts. And their investment in Jerry Falwell, Sr, ends! Yes, J. Falwell Senior, is what I intended.

[@usria2312]

From the title, I expected a different discussion. This shouldn't be about Left vs. Right. Prominent religious leaders have made a spectacle of themselves in praying over Trump, defending & enabling him at every turn, calling him chosen, giving prophesies about great things he would do. They spread misinformation, called for and promised divine intervention to overturn the election. Look at Paula White and so many others. That is the uncomfortable idolatry many have observed, for a man without humility, who believes he has nothing to ask forgiveness for, who makes gold his brand. Some faith leaders did criticize Trump but too many endorsed him. He is not a man whose character and history align with Christianity. He used a Bible & church as a prop, much as he used Pence. Trump worships money, fame, and himself; it's a shame anyone else joined in on that worship.

[@rubygriffin2558]

Well said.😌

[@heatherdavis5445]

I agree

[@andrewcramer9200]

That's the biggest shock to me is how the New Testament spends a huge amount of words warning against false prophets and teachers, and how even greeting them is to share in their evil work, yet crickets when Trump stuffed his Evangelical Advisory Board with wolves in sheep's clothing.

[@TheIceyeddy]

Johnnie seems like a nice guy, but he seems to be like alot of other Trump evangelicals in the sense that he puts his love of Trump and the Republicans before the teachings of Jesus Christ.

[@MathaiSamkutty-Ig1ni]

Definitely. They have paid a terrible price for it and will pay more if they don’t discard him.

[@jwatson181]

Agreed. The terrible price of not supporting baby murder.

[@queendove6376]

Agreed. He had to go!

[@jwatson181]

@@queendove6376 maybe you could help Biden kill the some babies? The pro baby murder lobby is interesting to see in Christian circles.

[@queendove6376]

@@jwatson181 We are not talking about Trump.

[@queendove6376]

@@jwatson181 We are talking about how Trump is being worshipped. “Pay attention “

[@alicesais770]

Your right on point Shane, thank you for all you do.

[@rubygriffin2558]

Johnnie says that he likes to address friends in private which is appropriate but Shane is addressing issues that require many voices and public awareness in order for effective change.

[@srourfamily]

Johnie got paid to support trump now he makes excuses! i think he and ben carson are still can support trump, watch them disappear typical

[@jeremywilliams3465]

Johnny likes to be in the secret Halls of power. Shane is working in the light and glory of God in the open

[@pamelafranklin3452]

Yes Complict

[@SpideyFan777]

I wish American Christianity looked like Shane more so than right-wingers and their idolatry. Love his work.

[@sundaymorris2480]

It's because evangelical helped with enabling Donald Trump towards most of his harsh policies

[@betford2]

Excellent discussion and moderator.

[@amiensarabellis8391]

I heard no apology. I heard no assumption of responsibility. I heard no comment that showed remorse for what happened. I heard no comments that his Trump's speech and invitation might have been misunderstood and contributed to this tragedy. How can we move forward if no one holds themselves ACCOUNTABLE? How can we continue to function if every action is blameless, without restriction, and justified as righteous,without regard acknowledging how one's actions could have affected such tragic scenario? If one is so clueless about one's actions, and cannot monitor oneself, then one needs external feedback and be held responsible. Trump resisted the traditional role of the media, calling them fake news. Never admitting any role in his own actions unless to overinflate and brag. In order for such a type like him we need external measures of accountability.

[@susanrice2146]

Answering the question. Oh heck yes. Absolutely.

[@melindamerritt6719]

Johnny is a liar and you can see it on his face.

[@johnlee556]

The topic of the debate seems to suggest or assume that “Trump idolatry” already exists. Do the two guests already agree in the first place?

[@mcmemmo]

The folks waving MAGA flags with pictures of Jesus on them who violently stormed the Capital are proof that "Trump idolatry" exists.

[@borneandayak6725]

@@mcmemmo i don't see any idolatry there. The storming of the Capital also is far from bad than the BLM-Antifa leftists did when they rioting, buring shop and town.

[@johnlee556]

Purely in the spirit of debate, either hold another debate to debate “Trump idolatry exists” or at the beginning of the debate, ask each side if he agrees or not,

[@andrewcramer9200]

​@@borneandayak6725 lol The Proud Boys boasted about infiltrating peaceful BLM protests and inciting violence. They post it on their Rumble accounts etc. Antifa is a boogeyman.

[@marywensae7489]

I agreed with Shane , what will Jesus do ( WWJD), I am so disappointed , I was bored and raise in Africa I came to know Jesus through white missionary, I am so disappointed by the role some white evangelicals played during the 2020 election, Kenneth Copland laughs at Biden’s victories,!Paula White calling angels from Africa, angels lived in Africa? We need truth like Shane said..

[@sundaymorris2480]

And yet, trump and supporters tried to overturn his victory....

[@longstridemills9989]

Trump won in a landslide. Foreign countries intervened and stole election just like Myanmar. This is not over not by a long shot. Tons of evidence.

[@andrewcramer9200]

​@@longstridemills9989 no evidence whatsoever. You are prime example A of rampant idolatry.

[@AzukaTheGoat]

Yes. Next question.

[@AnnE-qd5kw]

Upholding the rule of law doesn’t equal “political theatre.”

[@severelychanged3679]

Yes. As a Christian i just cannot believe it. It is just Crazy. Its almost like they never read what the bible says on that subject.

[@chadikhater1441]

All who fear the Lord will hate evil. Therefore, I hate pride and arrogance, corruption and perverse speech. Proverbs 8:13 NLT

[@alohaohana901]

I hope you are attributing pride, arrogance, corruption and perverse speech to Trump...when it comes to evangelicals, they often cannot see what is right in front of them.

[@edwinholcombe2741]

Arrogance, corruption is Biden's forte. I never saw perverse speech coming from Trump during his administration. I saw perverse actions from Biden while in office

[@alohaohana901]

@@edwinholcombe2741 I can't make sense of your comment

[@edwinholcombe2741]

@@alohaohana901 Sorry. I've edited it now. Thanks

[@alohaohana901]

@@edwinholcombe2741 Do you know what is really sad? 6 years ago, I would have considered you my brother. I don't know who you people are anymore. I wonder if the truth was ever in you in the first place. I don't want to abandon faith in the true God, but you have compelled me to abandon you. I don't think you realize the harm Trump has done to the Christian faith...and I am sure you will offer a defensive answer and prove me correct.

[@sundaymorris2480]

Thank you Shawn for your sharing

[@gretareinarsson7461]

The problem here is to talk about “the US Church.” It doesn´t exist. There are so many “christianists” believing in all sorts of “christianism.” Shane totally nailed this conversation. Johnnie talks a lot about unity and coming together but that demands himility and accepting when one is wrong.

[@goosetteballard]

Gretar, it’s God’s Church wherever it is, sir! Very superior of you to say that Christianity doesn’t exist in the USA. It certainly does...so should you walk into one here, I hope you’ll put away your judgements land let Jesus do the judging!

[@dereklaing2929]

@Desire Of All Nations and I'm positive it WAS the catholics.

[@meraphoenix989]

Shane is right-on!!

[@bakhop]

Shane is the first evangelical I've ever heard admit that reproductive rights and the terrrible A is connected to poverty and the inability to provide for offspring. Kudos for that. Wish he would have responded to that last comment about the nun providing contraception. If these people are really against abortion they shouldn't be against distributing contraception. It's interesting that people who don't have to worry about reproduction (nuns) are keen to control other people who have to make sometimes horrific choices.

[@dahelmang]

Catholics are against all forms of birth control. Why should the nuns be forced to pay for things they consider immoral? I don't have to agree with them to support their rights.

[@mcmemmo]

@@dahelmang Both Obama & Trump appointed Supreme Court justices voted in favor of the Little Sisters of the Poor, which is how the government of the U.S. operates. Lawmakers should not carve out Religious Liberty exemptions for any particular Church. It's easier & more fair to let those who complain go before the courts.

[@dahelmang]

@@mcmemmo the President and every member of Congress swears to uphold the Constitution. They shouldn't have to be told what our rights are. It's a check against their power, not a crutch.

[@Rose-mb7jb]

"Instead of spending energy debating the line of rightousness"?! There's where our problems line - constantly sidelining righteousness as directed by God to look at our own ambitions and agendas. WARNING ⚠️ that is dangerous!

[@mcmemmo]

It's clear that Shane Claiborne is a real Christian, while Johnny Moore is just creepy.

[@bobbyslay3316]

Maybe to a confused, deluded mind.

[@APD089191]

Every single time that I’ve heard people talked about religious freedom, it’s always comes to Christian supremacy for them and they are always disingenuous. So let me watch and see what this religious freedom advocate is going to say.

[@joegarcia3954]

Yes it is!!! See that was easy!

[@leroybrown2641]

the white church is

[@miltonwetherbee5489]

Here's my problem with the anti-abortion policies, while they are s good thing, they don't address the underlying issues, and in ignoring those, they cause other problems. Why do women have abortions in the first place? Some are young girls who got pregnant. Why do so many young girls get pregnant? Poor sex education, peer pressure to have sex, the fact that our society is largely ok with casual sex. We could talk about the porn industry and how it distorts our view of what a healthy sexual relationship is, how it distorts our view of women and how they should be treated, how it is glorified and how much money a person can earn such that young girls become part of it, how it helps to encourage sex trafficking. You can go on and on about why women end up in circumstances where they consider getting an abortion. If we deal with the reasons people get abortions in the first place, you'll have fewer and fewer abortions being sought. In fact, abortion rates have been dropping since before Trump took office. Most women don't really like the idea of abortion, and don't really want one, they just want the option because it makes being sexually active less problematic if they don't have to worry about raising a child they didn't want. So, it's great that we have anti-abortion legislation, but it's mostly just a political stunt that doesn't really do much besides making it look like the Republican party is upholding a major Christian view.

[@ahhitskatie9094]

Thank you for speaking kindly on this. One point I believe a lot of people miss is that while our government is working to remove abortion access, there are also many groups across the country who are there to support the women who choose to have their baby instead of maiming them. In fact, several groups not only raise funds for these women, but they also provide diapers, bedding, clothing, food, formula, etc, as well as rides to the doctor, paying for doctor visits, and either paying for or offering preschool/daycare. Not all of these groups are Christian, though many are. As Christ followers, this is one of our duties. We should not rely on the government for such things, but rather, we should care for one another in this way. I realize this may not necessarily answer your question but this is often overlooked by both sides of the aisle and needs to be praised.

[@miltonwetherbee5489]

@@ahhitskatie9094 I completely agree with you. Just a point of clarification, I wasn't really asking a question. I was pointing out that the Republican party and the church here in America as a whole (the church being the while of Christians as talked about in the media, how the while of Christianity in America is viewed) pays attention to issues such as abortion in a primarily political, superficial way. Christians pretty much all agree that abortion is wrong, so the church and the Republicans want it made illegal to curry political favor and power. But, if they really cared about doing something about abortion, they would focus on programs that would reduce people getting them in the first place. But yes, there are things like crisis pregnancy centers, which may or may not be Christian supported, and they do make a difference. But, if the church as a whole would focus now on that than fighting people's misguided belief that abortion is a woman's right, they could actually do more to reduce abortion. And if the government paid attention to the causes of why people have abortions, abortion rates would go down even faster. It's great that's it's becoming illegal, but now they have people who will go about trying to get an abortion in an unsafe way, they have lots of people making a fuss about the problems and what the Republican agenda is, and so on, and all the while, there are women who are uneducated about the surgeon they find themselves in, and don't know where to turn. So now Republicans and the church need to focus on actually helping educate people about sex, pregnancy, and so on in a way that encourages people to be responsible about such things. They need to create programs that really help young single mothers nation wide rather than relying on people here and there to set up places for women to turn to for help when they have an unwanted pregnancy. My point is simply that the Republicans and the church largely treat abortion as a political platform rather than an issue that real people need actual help with.

[@berthabanks5223]

@@miltonwetherbee5489 Yes you're right, its all political

[@yolandesolomons7611]

A resounding: YES!

[@shirleycull8917]

I enjoyed both men and their perspectives. I appreciated Johnny’s willingness to work with nonpartisan groups which showed the mind of Christ...Come let us reason together. Shane I wished you had been more objective and had acknowledged the positives in Trump’s policies. I appreciated the comment about keeping your guns but refusing to wear a mask. It makes no sense to me either. Good conversation.

[@gareth2736]

Nice to see a balanced, encouraging comment. I am not there myself (I dislike Trump more than any politician I remember) but appreciate yoru perspective and I am sure you are right that there are some positives for Trump (pro-life and anti US intervention in other countries are possible positives)...

[@LisaLisa-qo8gt]

@Andrew Davis I plead the precious blood of Jesus over your hate-filled hardened heart. Psalms 139:23 and 24 Psalms 51:10

[@andrewcramer9200]

​@@gareth2736 and yet Trump vetoed a bipartisan bill that would have cut off US financial support of Saudi Arabia's immoral slaughter of innocent civilians in Yemen. It is a known fact the Trump family have since received billions from the Saudis. The knee-jerk reaction from the Trump idolaters is MUH HUNTER'S LAPTOP! Cool story. Throw them in jail, too. Paul wrote, "who am I to judge those outside the church? Am I not to judge those on the inside?" The absolute blind eye turned to this exact issue is proof of idolatry.

[@johnfleming7879]

name five positions Trump has taken or actions of his administration that have been wrong? I am not going to sit here and be insulted by a a person who fails to understand that there was a "mob" separate from the vast crowd, and that a vey small group of instigators actually initiated that attack.

[@Prayforpeace1109]

Trump had an email to supporters for a fundraising campaign during march 2020 that asked people to join the “Trump Army” to fight the liberal mob from the Trump make America great again committee. Literal or not, it inspired a southern nevada firearms training facility ( Front Sight Firearms Training) to offer free lessons after signing up for newsletter about voter fraud . Unfortunately, there is too much evidence in videos that there was coordination and planned out violence. That small group had knowledge of floor plans.

[@johnfleming7879]

​@@Prayforpeace1109 I agree that it was organised- not by the 80-90% of Trump supporters, but by leftists who are trained in instigating mob action, and a few unbalanced people following the group.What is all this crap from you knee-jerk leftists about whiteness"? I can assure you racism is the last thing on Trump's mind, and supporters like me.

[@gulanhem9495]

@@Prayforpeace1109 If the Capitol "insurrection" truly was organized on a large scale beforehand, it wouldn't end up in just a few dozen people smashing doors while the other couple of hundreds walked around in the halls taking pictures. The stop the steal protest day was a huge event with perhaps 100,000 people outside the Capitol. We saw over 6 months of violent protests by the left during 2020 (often legitimized not only by media but by many Democrat politicians), and for once we had a few idiots on the republican side committing violence, and all of a sudden this is the only thing we remember and focus on? All of sudden Trump is not about law and order? Trump literally said "go to the capitol and peacefully protest". Wasn't the Russia hoax and Ukraine hoax enough? US democracy is really under threat if Trump is impeached for inciting violence.

[@jrodpaul]

I just got out of prison for walking around and into the Capitol that day. I can assure you that if your interpretation of the events of J6 is based on what the news has told you, your views are likely not accurate.

[@dietrichcoco570]

For the free taxes their idol is mammon

[@jeanettejackson1486]

Unbelievable!!!!! Moore still trying to defend Trump foolishness 🙄

[@paradisecityX0]

It's a cult of personality like any other we've seen in the 20th century. This hero worship is not unprecedented but grotesque all the same. Heck, it's not even unique here. Remember Reagan and Obama?

[@johnlinden7398]

Come on, you can possibly compare trumps cult of personality with Reagan and Obama!

[@paradisecityX0]

@@johnlinden7398 Oh yes l can. You must be very young indeed

[@andrewcramer9200]

​@@johnlinden7398 Reagan is still upheld as a god among men in conservative circles, despite hiring a full-blown astrologer witch (Joan Quigley), pure hypocrisy. And oh boy, Obama. His rallies were 6-figures, and unlike Trump, all the people wanted to be there, he didn't need to pay anyone to sit in the front row and clap on cue. When it became obvious he was mostly talk, the cult-like worship did drop off a little bit, but not enough 😐

[@karahenry3973]

Simply yes.

[@t5aylor]

You're known by the company you keep Mr. Moore. You bought the Trump ticket, now enjoy the ride.

[@RaisedtoWalkTV]

Moore's rambling at 37:00 is the most incoherent thing I've heard in a long time. The Christian faith is not just an individual thing, it is corporate. And there can be no unity before confession and repentance ! Corinthians 5.

[@ericrossoni]

Jonnie dude seems to be a passionate Trump supporter in secret lol

[@stevereed2472]

The most minority votes for a republican president, that is a very low bar sir

[@GospelMusicians]

Very good stuff

[@juliocastellanos4634]

This coled evangelicos only care was control and mony is big bisenes you see all suportes are millonaris great

[@gloriafitzgerald5206]

I believe there were less abortions under Obama than under Trump. The key to stopping abortions is to give lower income people more options, more resources. To show more love to those that are hurting. There may have been a purpose for Donald Trump’s presidency; to show us who we really are as a country, as a church, to separate the sheep from the goats.

[@andrewcramer9200]

Obama also was deporting WAY more immigrants (upwards of 400k one year). Border crossings plummeted under his watch and actually began to INCREASE under Trump. They never mention this in the qult, gee, I wonder why 🤔🫢

[@ruthlevai4816]

Thank you for having Shane Claiborne as a guest!!!

[@chadsampson5713]

But what about Obama, but what about people protesting trump, but what about what about what about what about what about what about. Who lets this guy argue anything, he’s a joke.

[@xwilliams9052]

What a great mix of a Christian and a Pharisee. Great way to cover the misleading of Christianity over the past 100 years to the boiling point in a short amount of time. I pray most ‘evangelics’ wake up to Christ and not the culture after this administration ends.

[@vivianbobis3076]

The church should unify the people and teach that our common moral values should be base in the Bible and not to become too partisan when it comes to political view. The evangelicals who supported Trump thought that they can use Trump for their platforms but the real truth Trump used them for his agenda. It is more manipulation.

[@candle-jack]

What I don't like about this discussions is the insincerity, this discussion is about Trump rather than what he said/did to make people back him. For example Trump took a strong pro-life stance on abortion, wherever you fall on that fence, you have to be disingenuous to believe evangelicals who are to a large degree very pro-life would not align themselves with that. There is almost no room for pro-life on the other side of the political spectrum. This discussion does not address the politics in this U.S has forced people into camps, they either abandon politics or they go hard for the perceived lesser evil.

[@TheMontross]

So, Trump was the only pro-life Republican candidate for president in 2016? Is that what you'd now have us believe? There were plenty of arguably much more sincere pro-life candidates available for Evangelicals to choose from - Mike Huckabee, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio - and out of that group, they choose Trump. The guy who bragged about grabbing women by their privates, the guy who had unprotected sex with a porn star while his wife was pregnant and then paid the porn star hush money. Evangelical Christians *chose that guy* when there were dozens of other pro-life candidates they could have chosen. I'm sorry... the abortion issue does not get them off the hook for that choice. That excuse just doesn't even remotely wash. No one is saying you have to vote Democrat, just vote for a more principled Republican!

[@aaronwenger8011]

@@TheMontross If you remember the 2016 Republican primaries so well, then surely you remember that it was contentious and drawn out. Evangelical Christians were not united for Trump then. I think it would be fair to say that Ted Cruz was the preferred candidate for the majority of evangelicals, though I don't have the survey data. Now, the perception is that the electoral choices are a forced binary: either you choose the pro-life , or the pro-choice option. You can disagree with the assessment that people have made since 2016, but give them at least some credit.

[@TheMontross]

@@aaronwenger8011 Doesn't matter. Trump would never have won the primaries unless he garnered Evangelical support, and Trump should have been a non-starter for Evangelicals of character. Period. Doesn't matter if they chose him all at once from the beginning or were slowly seduced to endorse him over time. At the end of the day, Evangelicals chose Trump as the Republican presidential candidate in 2016 when they had more morally defensible options. So, I don't want to hear any of this nonsense that it was either him or Hilary. That's hogwash.

[@gareth2736]

And yet abortions are not significantly lower under Trump than.any democrat president and the conservatives he has appointed to the supreme court are not looking to.overturn Roe Vs Wade. It seems that while there is a lot of noise about being pro-life a vote for the GOP does not reduce the abortion rate, I think. In the absence of any realistic possibility of abortion being outlawed in the short term I wonder if other policies such as additional financial support for single mums, encouraging adoption and subsidising contraceptive costs might do more to reduce the abortion rate.

[@TheMontross]

And let me say further - it's even worse if they grew to like him as the primaries went on, and as more of his degenerate character was revealed. What was it about him denigrating John McCain's service or gold star families or making fun of reporters with disabilities or openly asking Russia to look at Hilary's emails that swayed over Evangelicals? None of you Conservative Evangelicals have yet come to grips with the fact that your support of Trump will do more to hurt the cause of Christ than any issue in America since Evangelicals supported slavery and segregation. But that reckoning of just how much you've destroyed your Christian witness by prostituting yourselves with Trump is coming. Like the wrath of God, it's coming.

[@j316slaveofchrist6]

Amen , only truth will set us free ! Shane ; Good job communicating that truth .. until our original sin is dealt with then this will continue to reoccur ... I believe God will continue bring it up

[@equinoxproject2284]

Isn't this edition about 3.5yrs to late?

[@lindazelepugas1000]

Yes !

[@willtrainsandgretchenvacat4150]

Dragon been wounded. Christian will put him back in office in 4 years. Then you will really see his craziness

[@ApplePie..]

Trump doesn't want to be President anymore. He has already moved on.

[@andrewcramer9200]

​@@ApplePie.. why is he running again then?

[@ApplePie..]

@@andrewcramer9200 He changed his mind.