Is there a proper engine RPM for loader work? - TMT

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[@lwilton]

The tractor has a "positive displacement" pump. That means for every turn of the drive shaft it delivers an exact amount of oil. It will push that much oil out the output port no matter what, unless the engine stalls or the shaft breaks. This "amount of oil" has nothing to do with pressure. The "pressure" comes about when the pump is trying to move oil into a space where there is no more room for oil, like into a capped off hose. Then the pump will make infinite pressure. Or more realistically, either the engine will stall trying to deliver infinite pressure, the pump drive will break trying to deliver infinite pressure, or the hose will burst. None of these outcomes are good, so there is a pressure relief valve in the pump output. When the pressure builds up to the relief valve set point, it opens and lets the oil flow from the output back into the tank. This relief valve pressure is set to a value that won't break the pump or hoses, and won't stall the engine. So what does opening a control valve have to do with pressure? It lets the oil flow into one end of a cylinder and fill it up. So the pressure drops because now the oil has someplace to go. The oil will fill the cylinder full, then the pressure goes back to max and the relief valve opens because there is no more room in the cylinder for oil. Of course if you are trying to lift a bank vault the bucket won't go up. Then the pressure will build to max without filling the cylinder. The pump and relief valve don't care how much oil gets pushed into the cylinder. So what does RPM have to do with flow? The pump delivers only a little oil on each shaft turn. At idle it takes a long time to fill a cylinder. So if the engine goes faster the hydraulics move faster. But when they fill up or stall under the weight, you still have the relief valve open at the same pressure. Also when you open the throttle the engine delivers both more RPM and potentially more power. So a hydraulic load that might stall the engine at idle, or slow it down a lot, won't slow the engine down with the throttle farther open. So the loader moves snappier because the pump is turning faster so delivers more GPM of oil, and the engine can deliver more power so won't bog down or stall. The right engine RPM is the one that keeps the engine happy, and keeps you happy by moving along as fast as you want to move. It isn't necessarily max RPM.

[@paftaf]

Thanks a lot!! Thank you for taking the time to write such a clear and well explained message.

[@sunjaybedi4389]

Sounds like mechanically sound answer

[@lindsaybrowndrums6110]

Thanks, best explanation I’ve ever heard 👍

[@jstidgwell]

Thanks. I appreciate all the videos. You've been a lot of help with purchasing and operating my first tractor.The first 6 months with our L4701 has been great.

[@1965ace]

Love these videos! I just bought an M5-091 because of them. I've had ti for about a month and absolutely love it!

[@bropocalypse2065]

When my old lady is runnin in idle and not gettin things done around the house, I rev her RPMs with donuts and Budweiser

[@scottmoss6759]

Neil, you guys do a great job. I know making these videos is a lot of work. Kubota should be paying you guys. There are no other comparable dealers making such videos. Even our local Kubota and John Deere guys watch yours, LOL. Just bought an L3901 with a grapple and box blade and love it.

[@stephengmeiner3264]

Kinda what I thought already. Most of my work is done at a low RPM where I need precision, not speed. Even so, I find I still have the ‘strength’ I need without the noise from high RPM or too much speed/flow where I might damage stuff while forking stuff around. Thanks for confirming with a gauge.

[@PenniacWilderness]

Thank-you. Learning so much from you.

[@Chris_In_Texas]

Yes you will have pressure but not flow rate. That's why things move faster with higher RPMs.

[@shelterskelter]

Bingo. If the fluid aint moving it can be fully pressurized but you start cycling those cylinders and boy howdy does it lose responsiveness. Ideal rpm for my tractor for loader work is 2100 rpm top end being 2600. This avoids my hydrostat robbing to much pressure from the FEL and vice versa

[@kubotaman3440]

@@shelterskelter I usually run mine about 2,000 rpms doing loader work seems to have a the best response

[@bkrgi]

Well presented. Clearly today it is all about flow.....easy to build pressure but one does need a pump to back it up relative to use or pressure will drop fast. With that match RPM's relative to how fast you want things to move....but then the DPF tractors seem to want WFO operation vs half baked

[@nathanalme1173]

Neil, have a couple clarifying comments ..... Yes, this tractor has a fixed displacement pump. The difference between relief pressure at low idle and high idle is most likely NOT due to internal pump losses, but due to the pressure loss thru the relief valve due to flow differences and is additive to the pressure seen at the pump discharge port. Higher flow rates produce higher pressure drops through valves, especially relief valves. The response time differences you noted are not due to the ability of pump or valve to respond, but based on how quickly the control valve is metered / opened. Keep up the good work. Love your videos.

[@ScottTheMarine]

We'll looks like im going to do some testing this weekend and see if I can get a heaping bucket and lift and dump at idle versus higher rpms. 👍

[@uTubed007]

You Sir are the North American compact tractor resource par excellence ! ;-) TYFS

[@jerrygilliam7349]

Another hydraulic charactetistic that I didn't see mentioned here is "bypass", which has more to do with the pump and hydraulic component construction and wear. Positive displacement pumps, whether gear or piston or some other type will produce flow at any rpm. Rate of flow is effected by rpm and pump clearance. A pump with tighter clearances is more efficient than a pump with looser clearances because of the lower bypass rate. Changes in rpm effect rate of flow. Pressure, the resistance to flow, builds in relationship to the flow rate until it overcomes the pressure relief valve or forces the pump (or other components) to bypass through internal clearances. Lower rpms increase the time required to move the volume of fluid necessary to produce the desired work, and increase the likelyhood of flow being overcome by component bypass. Pressure increases with rpm because flow increases and bypass is constant. All in all, a good video though.

[@lesstech74]

absolutely, thats why my 2012 bx25 only makes 1600 psi between idle and 1800~1900. Beyond that it will make full pressure (fluid at operating temperature). Lifting a load close to max capacity for me must be done 1900 rpms and up. This has been this way since I bought it new with 1hr.

[@RockingCHomestead]

Good Info

[@hphillips7425]

Good video. I am dealing with a kubota salesman that could benefit greatly from your videos to increase his knowledge.

[@paftaf]

Thanks!! Very informative. Which pressure gauge would you recommend?

[@stopspinskydiving]

Good info, Neal. What about the EM illumination light? Bush hogged about 7 hours with my mx4800 the other day and she cane on. Temp got up to about 3/4. I know it’s some sort of overheat warning, but it references the emissions components. Little more insight?

[@SamM-kv2dz]

Some great information here...but what about the optimum RPM for using the center mower deck?

[@steelfabmechanic6545]

Neal, pressure is just the resistance of fluid to flow.

[@prodigyxl]

snowblowers are tricky to work with concerning RPM speed. Depending of type of snow or the amount of snow you need to play with your RPM AND the speed of your tractor.

[@larryfrench9642]

Is there a video on use of the valve lock on box 2380?

[@DocRevo]

HP makes pressure, RPM's make flow which = speed of your system functions. All hydraulic pumps have a rated speed, usually 1800 RPM's or so, and it is at this operating speed that the main relief is adjusted for the desired system setting. At lower RPMs, the lower flow will make it read slightly low. Without looking up specific models spec's, I'd say today's smaller tractors only have a flow rating of maybe 6 or 8GPM -- plenty to operate cylinders for a loader to work, but too low for things like hydraulic motor driven mowers or breaker / hammer tools.

[@tjvaichus]

Idk, my BX23S at idle barely lifts a empty bucket, like watching paint dry. I bump up my rpm’s and then I can get work done. So yeah rpm’s make a huge difference, at least with my tractor

[@trickdawg5521]

Good video but I really need to know what is the optimum RPM setting for running a brush hog. I have a LA5740 and feel like I should run it at 2100 -2200 but that is just what I feel is a good setting and have no basis for that setting.

[@stevek4449]

Ok as a new tractor owner i have a generic rpm management question. My tractor has a 20 speed power shuttle transmission. It has both a hand throttle and a foot pedal. When I pick the right gear I want for loader work speed, do I use the hand throttle or pre set cruise control rpm for the bottom end rpm used for hydraulic power and the throttle for excess rpm for movement speed? Or do i just rely on the throttle across the full rpm band? It has no DEF, nut does have DPF filter.

[@Jacobsen-ij9hn]

Here is my understanding. Loader will lift same weight at idle or pto speed. Rpm only affects time it takes for cylinders to go up and down

[@craigguinn5423]

Mine didn’t, I had to go above 2,000 to lift the bucket and 3,000 to remove the loader. Otherwise the loader wouldn’t raise. Disclosure, I have less than two hours on mine.

[@alittletexasingeorgia]

Is this the same on all models?

[@StefanBacon]

Interesting way to describe that. Pumps create flow though, not pressure. Load creates pressure. Still a useful set of observations though.

[@cassellracing]

Yes, only 150psi between idle & WOT, BUT there's a lot more flow\volume.

[@AnarchyEnsues]

better to run your engine at a speed that does not labour the engine. other than that its up to you. most commercial machines are designed to be run at full revs all day, like bobcats. pro homeowner tractors probably don't have the cooling to be run 100% all day.

[@BlackHawkBallistic]

Some definitely do, I've used older L series tractors that will sit at full throttle cutting grass and plowing food plots all day long without them getting above normal temps unless the radiator is blocked by debris. Same with the Kioti we use, it'll sit at full throttle all day long with no problems.

[@coypatton3160]

In generalized terms all diesel engine are designed to be ran at ‘load’ rpm’s. And all engines including gas engines are more efficient when at operating temps. Now most homeowners/property owners are not going yo use their tractor all day, many do spend several hours several times a week using the tractor. Do you need to run at 540 pto engine rpm-if using a pto implement yes! If not using a pto implement probably not, but you should not run at idle either. You should ample rpm’s to not choke the tractor into a stall while using it. Tractors unlike road vehicles were designed to not use the throttle as a speed control but to use gears and ranges or ranges and hst pedals to control ground speed. The throttle is for power to do the job-the job may be a pto implement, or traction to pull a ground engaging implement, or loader work where you need flow rate of fluid to preform that task. If you have a max flow rate of 4 gal/min-that is mist likely calculated ate full throttle or 540 pto throttle. Flow rate is very different than pressure. Think of your kitchen faucet. If you have it dripping, you still have the same pump pressure, just less flow.

[@hphillips7425]

Good video for the 26hp and under. If you have a DPF I would think you would want to keep the rpm's up ☝. I am curious how much the Messicks videos have helped Kubota sales across the country

[@wildbill23c]

Probably a bit. I don't have a tractor at all, yet. A few years ago, the engine in my lawn tractor decided to part ways with connecting rods...so I started looking at replacements. I thought hmm, a John Deere X700 series would be great. One trip to the dealer quickly ended any sort of thought about owning anything green. Not saying John Deere is bad, but when my local dealer treats a potential customer in a very rude and demeaning manner, that's a huge NO for me. If they treat a potential customer that way there's no reason for me to think they don't treat their current customers that way when there's a problem. A friend of mine has a Mahindra, seems like an OK tractor, but one of those things where hmm, can I get parts for it after 10+ years type thing, what happens when its no longer under warranty, breaks down, etc. One of my neighbors had a Kubota, never had any trouble with it, was always using it for something, used it to plant and maintain his huge garden every year too. So it led me to looking at Kubota. Spoke with my local dealer a couple times, they were very patient, answered all my questions, offered to bring out a demo unit to see if it would fit my needs, went over what I needed, what was available and didn't try to push me to something I didn't need or want. However, thanks to COVID, I don't have a tractor, and won't anytime soon LOL. Called my dealer last week to see about purchasing one...haha yeah umm well its gonna be in August sometime before they even see another BX machine. So it might be several more years before I get one at this point.

[@chiefmik9108]

Thanks for the info Neil, I have a question on another topic, the Drawbar... Is it better to tow with the drawbar or with the connections on the 3 point hitch... I could never get the correct answer... Thanks, Chief {NYS/ADK}

[@MessicksEquip]

If you're towing, the drawbar will be preferred. a lot of guys do use adapters on the three-point though, and that's just fine too.

[@MrOlddave]

Well what rpm does the engine like to be run at. I have heard diesels like to be worked. They are designed to run at a certain range and it is worse for the engine to baby it. I have heard the same advice for boat diesel engines and generators.

[@stuglenn1112]

You should of had the loader on or driven the tractor and looked at what that pressure gauge did at various rpms while the tractor or loader was moving. At low rpm with hydraulic flow, another words the tractor or loader moving the pressure would drop off with the flow. At higher rpm the pressure would be maintained much better. For cooling of the hydraulic oil however you want to maximize flow another words set your rpm so the tractor is going the speed you want with the pedal fully depressed.

[@MessicksEquip]

I tried that actually, the results we're not clear enough to make a video out of. I intend to do more on this topic.

[@BannerCap]

I have a newer tractor and I actually read the manual. Because of the pollution control equipment found on the newer tractors, it was recommended to keep the rpm above 2100 whenever possible. 2100 rpm is about 70% of the max rpm, I get great performance and shorter cycle times when extending or retracting the hydraulic cylinders. But when I really need the power to push a foot of snow or lift a full bucket of rocks, I will run at 85% of max rpm, which just happens to be PTO speed. The fuel consumption rate difference between 70% & 85% is insignificant at about 0.1 gph, so I find myself running at the high rpm range regardless of the task at hand. Most tractors are designed to be able to run at PTO speeds all day long, so IMHO the best speed is PTO speed.

[@SamM-kv2dz]

I'll ask out in the main thread as well, but nobody has really said what RPM to run at to have your mower deck operate the most efficiently. What are your thoughts?

[@BannerCap]

@@SamM-kv2dz The mower deck is running from a pto, so whatever the correct engine rpm is to achieve 540/1000 pto speed is what you want to use, it varies by model, but will be in the 2300 - 2400 range.

[@RichardGilbert2727]

@@BannerCap On my B2601, the 540 spot is marked at 2,800 rpms.

[@davidwilliams6892]

Hi Just wondering if you could Show how to pump rear wheel with air My tractor got water balance Thanks Dave from Tassie

[@kevinbetter4741]

1800 - 2000 rpm works for my JD 3270

[@kmisercola7180]

I know I'll get backlash but I was always taught to run your tractor at the lowest possible rpm to achieve your given task

[@kdegraa]

I like your old stuff better than your new stuff.

[@MessicksEquip]

I did a lot more tractor basics years ago. I hesitate to repeat the same topics again, but I probably should.

[@MVortex2]

What is your opinion of shimming the relieve valve to increase loader capacity? This assumes proper ballast and increased awareness around load handing.

[@CarrotCaptain]

The reliefs are set at a certain pressure for a reason. #1 being the high pressure limit of the components, cylinders, valves etc. #2 is to protect the loader itself from being torn apart due to the increased power of the hydraulics that run it. Turning up the relief is not a good idea in general. Do so at your own risk.

[@regulartower588]

They gotta do something with this theme music.

[@JeremyTVOK]

That B2650 looks naked without the front end loader or any implements.

[@chaseledbetter5186]

The reason I idle up a little for loader work is speed of the hydraulics, not power.

[@michaelchadwick3497]

Pumps move volume. Pressure is determined by the size of the restriction (lines, valves, the size of orfices in those valves) the oil is flowing through. The drawback to moving a high volume is excessive heat build up.

[@gregbuttion8075]

I would be interested to see this done while operating the loader with a tee fitting (gauge) and loader attached as opposed to a dead headed gauge.

[@MessicksEquip]

So I kind of did off camera, I tried to get the pressure to drop by jumping on the hydro quick. I couldn't get a clear result from it, I intend to do more on this in the future.

[@ROTAXD]

Messick Farm Equipment Possibly a digital pressure guage that will retain & display the high & low. That way you could show the pressure drips reguardless of how quickly the system recovers.

[@crunch_amp9282]

It just makes the pump work faster you have a faster operating speed with your loader up and down

[@SamM-kv2dz]

What about an idea of what RPM to run at to have your mower deck operate the most efficiently. What are your thoughts?

[@MessicksEquip]

540 mark on the tach

[@Jennifer-007]

It sure doesn't feel like only 10% as I watch my backhoe on my M62 swing sooooooo slowly if I run at low RPM compared to at say 2000... it's a HUGE difference in swing speed, bucket curl etc...

[@ItsaboutMakingnotBuying]

I have a Kubota B 2601 what should my pressure gauge read? Thank you in advance.

[@MessicksEquip]

Depends where you put the gauge.

[@skipevans1995]

on a bx2680 should I use straps or chains to tie it down on trailer

[@paullambert2668]

You should use what you have - either will work. If you have both, or you have neither and you're buying, I'd use chains.

[@danchittal3897]

Will someone tell me I'm not the only one who thinks he looks like Mac from its always Sunny in Philadelphia

[@Crackerjam]

Is my tractor broken, or does this information just not apply to all models? I have a fairly new Workmaster 25s, and at idle the loader moves, but won't lift anything substantial. When I increase the RPMs everything works fine, but it has very little strength at idle.

[@MessicksEquip]

normal

[@mikestrickland6032]

Ok so my question about the proper RPM to run my MX6000 at is for the hydrostatic transmission. If I am pushing stuff around and don’t need the loader to move quickly am I hurting the transmission by running it at just above idle ?

[@MessicksEquip]

Conceivably yes. Although I'd not stress over it.

[@plumber77mjr]

1st video I have to disagree with you. I agree with most the other comments regarding psi vs flow.

[@donniebargo964]

You should have let your mechanics do this video because a Gear Drive tractor and a hydrostatic tractor were completely different with the loader application. On a hydrostatic machine you move it to the PTO recommended RPMs and the touch of the relief in the loader joystick valve is how you sent and move your loader. On a Gear Drive tractor you have a fuel pedal like a gas pedal and you use that to add or subtract speed on your hydraulics

[@MessicksEquip]

About 1% of these tractors are gear drive any more.

[@RichardGilbert2727]

Neil, on my new B2601, the manual says to not run it at "full speed" during break in and advises that tractors never be run at full speed. The red area on my tach that marks its rated working area and 540 is at 2,800 rpms. How far above this is full throttle/max rpms?

[@MessicksEquip]

Not really advice that anyone seems to think applies anymore. Its fine to crank it up and go.

[@RichardGilbert2727]

@@MessicksEquip Thanks. I don't actually think speed per se is much of an issue. I think it's load. I wish instead of warning about never running at full speed, in break-in and even later, the manual said: Avoid sustained heavy loads, such as cutting heavy vegetation, in the first 50 hours. Take narrower cuts/smaller loads if heavy work is necessary.​ I'd wager this is actually the issue the nervous manual writer tried to warn of.

[@Farmer-zx5in]

I have a question, why does a kubota/John Deere the smaller sub compacts idle at 15-1600 rpm, not 9-1000 like a lot of others

[@MessicksEquip]

Kubota's sub compacts do idle low. Deere does not. Specifically I believe its related to the pressure we are talking about here. At that low of an idle, the pump does not build enough PSI to lift the loader. Deere touts it as some competitive advantage, but it's really just a side effect of their high-idle speed. They are wizards at spinning their odd weaknesses.

[@Glide1992]

My new little 23 hp Kubota tractor idles at 1600 RPM.

[@lh98]

I want my loader bucket to dump faster. I always feel like I’m wasting time and total machine hours waiting for the bucket to dump out. seems like a full bucket should have no trouble going with gravity to dump out quick but obviously the hydraulics control that aspect and slow it way down... is there anything can be done to increase dump speed?

[@MessicksEquip]

What machine do you have? Most of what we sell has speed dump circuits.

[@lh98]

Messick's Equipment it’s a competitor brand... Mahindra 1533 Shuttle. If I use loader lever in the upper right it goes a little faster but also goes down and I don’t always want the bucket going down. Didn’t know if a hydraulic valve could be adjusted to move faster or not. Thanks for replying! I should mention I love your videos. Always good info on your channel.

[@MessicksEquip]

Kubota and New Holland both use valves that in their extreme right position open wide open and allow the bucket to flop straight over. We call them speed dump circuits. Good chance you don't have it. There would not be valves adjustments for this.

[@fhuber7507]

That is a half answer... Flow rate is the measure of importance.

[@tomkeating65]

So, do a test on gpm and not psi.

[@eosjoe565]

There's no question - higher RPM will result in more flow. That is why the loader will move slower at idle than it would at full throttle.

[@TomTomGo36]

If you want to do an proper test you want to measure the flow rate and pressure simultaneous with an restricted flow to tank at different rpm

[@eosjoe565]

I don't think he was really trying to graph pressure and flow vs. engine RPM. But rather to simply point out to new users mostly that the engine doesn't have to be running full throttle to develop enough working pressure to run the loader.

[@pathamer5823]

I ordered my m6060 with 540e. Do you have a demo on that or a good explanation for the kubota system? JD say's all others 540e is fake. Explain please?

[@MessicksEquip]

All 540E I have ever seen is the same. No idea what they're referring to.

[@pathamer5823]

@@MessicksEquip upgraded to the M7060 with everything.

[@tomwest8663]

I have a BX25 and at idle it won't even lift the front loader sitting still, you have to idle it up to around 2000 rpms. Is this normal ?

[@MessicksEquip]

Totally normal

[@justaddwata]

Did a great job of asking the question "Is there a proper engine RPM for loader work?" and NOT ANSWERING IT!!!!

[@roflstomps324]

I run mine at about 1100-1200 RPM for loader work. I don't get any sluggishness from the hydro or the lifts at those rates.

[@northeasterndirtandpropert7974]

My RPM's run according to job conditions,and thats not WOT all day.No need to burn extra fuel and prematurely wear out your engine.Experience will find the "sweet" spot.

[@johnhasse3995]

Engine efficiency should peak at about 1500 rpm. If that speed works for you use it, if you need a little more, use it.

[@t.s.tractorworkstrickland5828]

Volume

[@ML-lg4ky]

So you don’t have to run around with it wide open then...

[@matthewmillar3804]

I live half a continent away but I wanna call and chat about tractors. I don't have one, can't afford one, have no use for one, but I wanna talk about tractors. Is that weird? Don't worry Neil, I'll leave your sales staff to deal with actual customers. ;)

[@MessicksEquip]

Thank you. 😀👍🚜

[@Jonas889665]

Professional operators ONLY use the foot throttle for loader work. Changing direction at a higher RPM is bad for the clutch and transmission and also bad for fuel economy. Or why do you think they are putting foot throttles even in Skidsteers now ?

[@MessicksEquip]

different kind of equipment. Hydrostatic transmissions, nothing in this class has foot throttles.

[@Ghis1964s]

Forget about pump or/and engine-duty. The right RPM for any engine is around 85% of its total factory output. Any tractors I have driven back in the "old" days were all ran at full throttle, as this was the common way, and never seen the extent of their real life potential if only 30% of it. And I'm talking about guaranteed 10000+hrs engines from 40yrs ago here, and stock that is. While many around here and way many more in europe have took those same engine to new level by adding turbo and everything, but still keeping a "cold-head" on its seat. That's somewhat hard to explain to some "city-people" or some "mowing/tilling/backoe/loader/etc" tractor-Joe, but that's the plain truth. There's NO messing around with this. Or else, them wallets has to speak for them. I've yet to see any wallet make a joke. From time to time I'm driving 20y-o tractors hauling 4000-8000gls manure tanks. Some of those tractors had some 15 different drivers over the years before me. Those tractors range from 8000hrs to 14000hrs of work done, and they're all opened-up at the fuel-pump and other improvement at more than 45% of what they were intended to be (45% over stock).... all because the owner was able to find drivers that would do as he said >>> "Never over rev" >>> That is, never go pass beyond the 85% threshold. Of course we can over-rev when we need it to on hills and such, which is why the boss has never modify nor put any limit on the engine's RPM/fuel-pump/etc. Yeah I know.... some noobe just got off a Briggs-Stratton and want to push a real machine as if this was a bike/side-side/ATV and such.... well... let them do (they have a wallet to empty, and just about having enough brain to open that wallet to anywhere to empty it anyway) (to educate those is often like... as Thanos says, is to court... failure) ;)

[@danrichard3135]

I disagree that you get the same power (pressure) at any rpm and the variable is the speed of the implement. At idle, I could probably stop my FEL from lifting with just my foot on my brand new BX. It’s gutless until I bump up the RPMs. Bucket into a pile of dirt and see if you can boom up at idle. I don’t know the mechanics behind it, but I assume the hydro pump needs the hp (RPMs) to maintain the pressure when under load. Or maybe it needs the hp to maintain the flow when pressure is applied to the cylinders. Regardless.... RPMs do equal more available force (not just speed) or every hydro unit I’ve operated is broken. ;-)

[@MessicksEquip]

BX is kind of the exception to the rule here. That one is different, you don't build pressure until you raise RPMs.

[@rayeddy528]

Yes Neal you are correct on the BX ! My BX 24 will not move loader until I raise the RPM to around 1400 ! Great of your service personnel to catch the flow to pressure question !! Been a field mechanic on a coal surface mines for 43 years and I have experienced a lot of pump , valve, and cylinder trouble shooting . Thank you for all you do and God bless you all !!!! Eddy