Is There Any Point To Fasted Training? | Tri To Disagree

[@_J.F_]

I always go for my morning run on an empty stomach. There is no particular reason for that other than I simply have no appetite in the morning and haven't eaten breakfast for most of my grown up life. I am 194 cm tall and weigh about 91-92 kg, so I am neither too skinny or too fat, and eat what I consider a healthy and varied diet but not until I come back from my run, and after my shower, by which time I do have an appetite. Works well for me.

[@steven7169]

I'm the same, thing is your muscles store a lot of glycogen, and your slow twitch can work on fat lactate which is pretty cool. But the most important thing is that any who constantly refers to food as fuel is a bit of a bell-end.

[@jameswoolston3580]

Dr Ekberg on KZbin explains the calorie myth about how to lose weight

[@mackenzieusher8025]

Kudos to Mark for making an honest effort to argue on the side of something he doesn't believe in!

[@ironman140.6]

Excellent topic thank you!! Strength training vs no strength training - that is a massive topic that triathletes are so injury prone. I don't know if either of you are in the strength training corner as per your body style - it will be hard to see who takes the pro vs con side. On this note strength and core with weights from top to bottom is key to holding off injuries, especially for ironman distance. Hope you do this next week that is if you see value.

[@chadaustin6438]

Question for future episode: is “marathon pace” training in long runs beneficial or does it fall into a “grey zone?” Does race pace effect the answer to this?

[@hornetluca]

Next discussion could be if we should spend less time running because it has a huge impact on our joints than cycling and swimming

[@sailingtribu]

There are factors that causes more damage to your joints rather than running. Smoking for example is number one cause of joint damage.

[@glenni249]

That's not really a relevant argument given most triathletes are already not smoking.

[@emmag00]

I do think run volume would be a good topic. There are some interesting case studies from short and long course (eg Beth Potter and Kat Matthews) who have fairly low run volume but have top run splits in their races.

[@hornetluca]

@@emmag00 awesome since I don't like running, low volume is good to me

[@fuelyourendurance8288]

Yes it would be cool to also share the minimum amount of running volume needed for various tri distances. From, an injured runner.

[@callumnotman5145]

Brilliant how James put things straight from the begining: If you want to lose weight, the only way is calorie deficit. There are so many videos out there trying to sell some magical diet plan or fitness plan which don't work. Great video 😊

[@danielbluez]

from my test sample of one, the difference between a caloric deficit diet vs caloric deficit and fasting is that I lost more fat per kg lost, kept the weight better and felt better . Nothing to do with performance.Our bodies are also built to handle fasting and do much worse handling abundance, best.

[@joemoya9743]

You need to interview Dr. Dan Plews to understand the specifics to fasted training... Then, interview just about any other well know coach/ sports dietician who doesn't use fasted training.

[@BillyStinkwater]

Thanks for this, great watch! I have been doing (semi) fasted runs for a long time (during the lunch break at work after not eating for about 6h) and came the realize that once I started structured training/high intensity sessions it would simply not work. No energy and could not match the requirements of the session.

[@rickplaschka9909]

Apparently I’ve been doing it wrong all along! I generally exercise (swim, bike, run) on an empty stomach as often I feel much slower when exercising with a meal on board. Doing so on an empty stomach (well, empty except for water and coffee!) makes me feel much lighter and I feel like I am better able to tackle the challenges I set for myself. Having said that, I have started to incorporate more of the snacks (energy cubes and the like; gels haven’t sat well with me) and noticed a difference. I guess I’ll have to start experimenting between the two to see what gives me the best performance!

[@stephenneal23]

I workout first thing in the morning. If it's scheduled to be over an hour I'll eat (so mostly weekends) otherwise I just go out and get it done.

[@martinkroutil]

Thank you guys for amazing video and information, love this format with arguments from both sides of coin :).

[@scottconnolly9356]

The pros and cons associated with “big training days” such as what what Gordo Byrne discusses. 1 hour swim, 5 hour ride and 2 hour run separated with a 90 minute break between sessions

[@clairefortier9738]

It’s hard to imagine not eating SOMETHING before working out. It sounds miserable 😅 I don’t care how easy the effort is

[@MrAksometrija]

Great topic, I have been doing sports since 2 years old, and I never liked eating when I was a kid till maybe 12-13 years old. I always rather do my morning run, conditioning or swimming, cycling, or Muaythai - an empty stomach, I used to fight, so you can't train with a full stomach. I feel great i make sure I hydrate well before and after with coconut water or electrolytes, i have been running and preparing for a half marathon, when I fasted for 24-42 hours - once a week, and I always had quite medium running sessions after this. The first time was very hard, and my body was rejecting in it. But every time I got better and better and faster and faster - my body adapted. But I think what fasting does is it trains well your mind set and test your limits of endurance and helps you to heal faster your traumas like hurting knee. I am not a big fan of gels - but now preparing for my first triathlon, so I guess will need to fall in love with them. Love your channel guys, keep up the good work.

[@DonDiPriel]

I love you guys, love your videos, but this is why KB and GI told you in one of your videos that its not the nineties anymore. I tried to optimise my fat metabolism for a few months. Then we went for performance tests with three friends and while our FTP or I prefer to call it VT2 level was within 15W difference, my speed I could sustain with a max carb intake per hour for an Ironman distance race was 35 and 45W higher than my friends who didnt focus on fat metabolism training. You can calculate what percentage of fat/carbs you are burning at certain effort levels. Both HR and power. My FTP, and my HR for VT1 didnt change between the two tests very much. Just the amount of fat/carbs I was using for a certain effort

[@chinpoeykhoo6261]

Anything lesser than 10km in the morning run I will go fasted, anything longer than that I will grab something light or take an extra gel if needed. At least that worked for me so far, best of both worlds😄

[@TheTriathlonSamurai]

First comment! Love you guys! Suggestion - does sex affect performance? (testosterone and stuff).

[@craigmckinlay4308]

Most of my training is fasted because it’s first thing in the morning and I don’t like to train with food in my stomach. Never had an issue although when doing races up to and including Ironman I will take food from aid stations but not gels. Thing that wasn’t mentioned was how sick people get on the course by shovelling gels down that they can’t cope with and then their race falls apart. I read a recommendation somewhere that you should take up to 20 gels in an Ironman which seems crazy to me and not natural but then I suppose doing an Ironman isn’t natural either!

[@jtsanders566]

What about Dr Dan Plews right fuel right time approach. He held the Kona amateur record and recently went below 8 hours in an Ironman as an amateur.

[@SaqerAlKhalifa]

I am diabetic, I can’t eat before training. I also do all my races, even IRONMAN races, without breakfast. I have no choice, I also have no category to race in. The reason is that the insulin I inject myself before food will cause hypoglycemia. Therefore I have to wait 10-12 hours after insulin to train or race. I also carry my insulin injection with me in all the marathon and IRONMAN races that I do.

[@rickstokes2239]

If you’re trying to drop weight then doing your Zone 2 training first thing in the morning while in a fasted state will melt the fat, train your body to burn fat better as fuel and get that Zone 2 training in! 90 to 120 minutes is enough. I’ve done it for decades. Athletes on Keto plans do this constantly.

[@dylanhunt5368]

There are a few points you didn't bring up in favor of fat adaptation. What about diabetics? What about all the people who enjoy triathlon events but don't have the chance or need to win it? What about cost? Or what is healthier for your body or teeth? What about being classy and only eating real food?

[@user-rl3ef4ju9k]

Very good points there!

[@caspersteenkamp1623]

#GTNcoachescorner Thanks for a good discussion. Perhaps the next topic could discuss the minimum/optimal gap between events? I am considering doing a 70.3 4 weeks before my first Full Ironman. It could either be the perfect building block or break me down before such a big race…

[@Ziekeman69]

It's too simple to just put that you only need carbs for high intensity. If your LT1 is a lot higher because you can use fat as fuel in an effective manner, your high intensity output will also be greater. Less lactate and byproducts in the muscles --> longer able to maintain the higher intensity. Doesn't mean fastest training is the way to go, but it could be an argument for it.

[@Ivan_Nano]

What about what Haug is doing using protein for fuel because of her diabetes?

[@Se-cy5uk]

Whats the thought on early morning pre breakfast runs? Doing them fasted isnt the point for me, thats just when they fit into the day best sometimes. Is that something that will be detrimental to performance in the long run or OK? :)

[@squngy0]

As I understand it, it will simply give slightly less benefit. It will not make you slower then if you didn't run, not by a long shot, but it might not make you quite as fast as if you did it after eating (which could also just be an energy gel or a banana).

[@speedsociety9177]

just try to keep the intensity low, intense/long fasted training can also increase stress hormones, burn muscle and impact recovery negatively

[@aldude9511]

A benefit I have found from doing my zone 2 runs fasted is that it keeps me in zone 2. If I start to push too much, the body fights almost immediately and I drop the effort back down.

[@188352501]

#tritodisagree Indoor sessions vs outdoor sessions for all three sports. OWS vs. Pool Zwift vs. Open road Track or treadmill vs. Road

[@timgraves9893]

Have you heard of literally being allergic to exercise? Yup, that's me. I have what's called Exercise-induced anaphylaxis. Fortunately for me, it happens only if I eat before I exercise. I will break out in hives, and in really bad situations, I will pass out. I used to carry an epipen with me when I exercised, just in case. Now a days, I have it under control as we figured out that it only happens if I eat before physical activity. So, I always exercise fasted. Granted, it doesn't have to be 10 hours faster, but I usually wait at least 2 hours, and I'm very conscious of how I'm feeling, as I don't tend to carry an epipen with me any more. :-)

[@Morfeusm]

Oh wow, I had exercise induced asthma few times but I told myself it must have been some pollen… However good luck with this, it sounds awful!

[@188352501]

#tritodisagree Needing gait analysis / ideal running stride verse just slowly ramp up for volume and intensity and don’t worry about the little difference in gait as long as it’s pain free You can apply this to bike fit analysis and swim stroke analysis.

[@AmerijamAcres]

I’d really love to see you bring in someone with a background in this topic. Try to get dr Timothy Knoakes or someone of that caliber in to get a professional opinion by someone with much more knowledge on the topic.

[@terrenaguthrie4747]

On weekdays I run fasted simply because I have to get up so early and I don’t have time. When I run on weekends I always eat something at least a half before my run. I actually prefer eating before. My runs are always better and I don’t feel like I struggle as much.

[@michaeltan511]

The key point here is that fasted training is NOT for high intensity sessions… The body will ‘prefer’ carbs over fat because it metabolises quicker to produce energy. But by optimising your FatMax, you can generate a greater proportion of higher intensity efforts for longer fuelled by fat instead, therefore less dependency on carbs (and subsequent lactate production)

[@TamaEnergy]

I feel unwell after fasted training like actually shaky and shivery and unwell its so werid

[@DavidC-rt3or]

So a different variation of the "fasted" training. "Fasted" from a time sense (8+ hrs), but still glucose fuel availability (based on # from a cgm). Granted would still depend on intensity/duration. And maybe you want/need to lower the glucose #.

[@fotismastranestis8649]

The only free time for training is 6:30 am to 8 am how can i train non fasted??

[@rubynette]

With banana and sports drinks

[@stuge7340]

I do my low intensity morning runs fasted, largely from a practical point of view, i want to get out early before work and the heat of the day and getting up early enough to be able to eat breakfast would mean cutting out sleep which isn’t going to help with recovery. This tends to be more when my training is ultra focused when any extra fat burning adaptations will also help me to keep moving through the periods when my stomach isn’t playing ball and I can’t take on all of the calories I need. It hard to make training perfect for us non-pros and I don’t think any of us are getting up to 120 calories per hour without suffering the consequences!

[@jamiefuhrman403]

It's actually up to 120g carbs per hour, so even more calories (close to 500)!

[@Morfeusm]

Exactly this!

[@pagesculptor]

I tend to eat more all day if I eat before I train in the morning. I don't know why, but my body wants a ton more calories versus if I just ran on an empty stomach.

[@daltonstewart5540]

I never comment. I think it's more the mental battle. Sometimes things dont go to plan, and if you know what to expect you are better able to handle it. Meaning that, there are times I have been on the bike and missed a AIDs station and had to go without anything. It isnt just my body but the mental game of missing out that was hard part.

[@Nyelands]

You actually do go longer without AIDS

[@anajovanovic265]

I prefer to run early in the morning because it fits better in my schedule and I don't really feel hungry for the first 2-4 hours after waking up anyway. My only other option is late afternoon after work and for that I need to be very strict on when I need to finish lunch at the latest, what and how much I'm allowed to eat etc. otherwise I feel very heavy and slow.

[@ngdawgs1]

I eat something light about an hour before starting a morning workout.. like an egg wrap with avocado with some tailwind. I feel like it gives me energy once I start my workout and not feel heavy.

[@Aeronwor]

I do fasted training on a daily basis. It's called my morning commute. I have a nasty hill halfway to work, if I eat before leaving home, it can get messy.

[@mickfanning93]

Feels like theres an over focus in performance in itself. I train fasted because midweek i run first thing in the morning, and then get on with the day. It makes it much easier to fit training around work and life. So I can train consistently, and get fitter

[@trailrunplanet]

Interesting discussion. I'm training for a point-to-point trail run next summer where there is about 20 to 30 km between villages and restocking fuel for the run. Will including fasted training help reduce the chances of bonking between villages? The objective is not speed - just avoiding collapsing in a bonk cloud at the side of the trail.

[@EP-sv6dn]

I feel nautious if I eat less than 2 hours before workouts and since I run at 5 in the morning I am not getting up 2+ hours prior

[@panzerveps]

I've tried fasted training before, and it was horrible. Bonked 45 minutes in.

[@Lightrider-v5u]

My question is: how does life stress affect performance ? since triathlon is really about consistency, does a big amount of stress added to a loaded week by week plan (9 hours average per week, mainly base training) can lead to overtraining, adding the fact I also lose a lot of quality sleep, and work more than average these days ? background: I am a full family\work 49 years old age group triathlete (did my first 70.3 last year) and currently live a country which is in a state of war, I train every day but since the war began I find my bike and running sessions very hard even when training in Zone 2.

[@gourami7]

Yes, life stress is relevant and another stressor to training stress that needs to be accounted for in your training.

[@trbeyond]

Some say there is no such thing as overtraining. Rather it’s under recovering. Point is, stress is stress. You absolutely need to take into consideration life stress. Stay safe and good luck

[@Morfeusm]

Any stress affects body a lot, I think your body doesn’t differentiate where the stress is coming from. I don’t think I can even grasp how would war affect me, but when Covid pandemic started I had the same issue with Z2 running. Good luck and stay safe!

[@janalaughlin2197]

I would love to be able to eat before and during a 70.3 or a half but have been having “fecal smear” during many long runs. I’ve tried low fiber foods the day before and only drinking tailwind 25 g per hr and yet I still have the issue many times. On lower intensity trail half marathon or more runs or century rides I don’t have the issue. It seems that gravitational pull on more intense runs is the cause. I don’t feel stressed or nervous. I also have GERD which I take a medication for but it makes eating solids while running quite difficult or even bent over a bike. I would greatly appreciate your input. Thanks!

[@damonhammond1223]

Most triathlons start early in the mornings. If you ask what people have as their pre race breakfast it wont be very much, and usual simple carbs. Is this enough to race at full potential??? How long do the carbs from the day before last as glycogen in the muscles? How much should I be eating before the race for optimal performance???

[@matthiaswuest7271]

I personally wake up at least 2.5-3.5 hours before race start to have a full bowl of oats, a banana and a hydration drink -- even if that means a 4 am raceday start 😅 Well worth it to feel fully awake and fueled when the gun goes off

[@precisionfandh]

We have two main stores of glycogen (carbs) in the body found in muscles and liver. When fully topped up from a successful carb load, these stores last ~90 minutes. This is the reason it's important to continue to consume carbs during your triathlon if you are wanting to maintain a higher intensity. The meal pre race (breakfast) is often our last chance to top up our liver glycogen stores which will have been slightly depleted overnight. Therefore, it's a case of balancing the importance of this and the already early race start. If you are wanting to learn more on carb loading, please visit our knowledge hub and search 'carb loading' for some great blogs 🙌

[@sdxtraining]

I think you should have someone with more knowledge on fasted training and LCHF diet to argue because all questions would have been answered . 120gr of CHO still not enough to fuel most athletes energy expenditure and most would have gastric issues with that quantity and would end up slowing down . Improving your ability to use fat is not to race at faster speed but not to slow down as most people bonk when only on CHO (slowing down on marathon is also bonking)

[@pauljaffray6437]

great video as normal. Even if I run first thing before breakfast I make sure I have a banana before an easy 5k or 10k.

[@188352501]

#tritodisagree Off season Is it best to just decrease your training but still swim/bike/run or have a period of time where you completely stop swim/bike/run before entering a competitive race season?

[@Jeaglelol]

#GTNCoachescorner My schedule is I have my alarm set for 5AM and usually try to start my session by 5:30 AM six days a week with one rest day. I do these sessions without a breakfast before and with nothing but water during the session that will last around 60 minutes. 2 hard sessions 4 easier/zone 2 sessions. I eat until about 2 hours before I go to bed the night before, and have a big healthy breakfast after the session. I feel like if I were to have a gel or sportsdrink 6/7 mornings of the week id be toothless in 4 years time. Will this approach hurt my training?

[@Agavewalker]

Is there any information on triathlon when on the carnivore diet?

[@PSteem]

When I train in the morning I can't hold down any food when I train within 2 hours of eating. Could I take a gel before training in the morning to avoid training fasted?

[@mackenzieusher8025]

I think it is healthier to be fat adapted. And I would challenge the idea that the fasted state is not natural or healthy. From what I have read, and from my personal experience, relying on fast-acting sugars just spikes the blood sugar, which I think is hard on the insulin receptors over time.

[@karma_97_]

Anybody know what are the proper warm up exercises before running long distances??. Started taking long distance running seriously about 6 months ago but i began running to much and not stretching enough and now my left knee (popliteal fossa area also the right knee quadriceps tendon) feels very exhausted and i can't Even run a mile without it throbbing and bothering me. Got an mri for my left knee but nothing was broken or fractured, I speculate muscle fatigue and need months off to recover 🤦 but if someone can help and give me advice I would very much appreciated it!!!.

[@samchoroszewski1245]

Was wondering from an ultramarathon running POV… Can being better fat adapted mean you can get away with carrying less food (carbs) in your pack, primarily because you’re burning your bodies own fat rather than the tonnes of carbs you’d need to carry otherwise?

[@squngy0]

Probably, but if you eat 90g of carbs per hour and do a 4h marathon, that's still only 360g of carbs. (and you only carry them for half of the time if you average it out) More importantly, no matter how fat adapted you are, it will always be better for performance to eat all the carbs you can tolerate. No one is able to burn so much fat that getting extra energy is no longer useful.

[@samchoroszewski1245]

@@squngy0 thanks for the reply! 100% makes sense for shorter distances, but my last 100mile ultra took 28hours and going at 90g of carbs per hour would mean carrying over 2.5kg of food. So my thinking is any more fat adjusted I become surely this quantity reduces and I can carry less?

[@squngy0]

@@samchoroszewski1245 You could have the same amount of energy by carrying less, yes, but is it better to carry less or to have even more energy? I do not know how much you would need to carry in order for that equation to flip to the side of carrying less, but in theory that point should exist. 2.5kg might not be enough to flip it, but I guess it also depends on your weight. For a 100kg+ person for example, I think it would definitely be better to carry the extra food. For a very small person, maybe it wouldn't.

[@precisionfandh]

Being more fat adapted can be useful when exercising at a lower intensity, but often the limitation on endurance performance (from a fueling perspective) comes from the limited store of carbohydrates. Once these stores run out, your intensity will drop and this is often what runners call 'hitting the wall'. If you want to fuel your ultra marathon to perform well, you will require some carbohydrates 😊

[@188352501]

#tritodisagree DIY Training Plans or AI training plans vs. Professional Coaching: Analyzing the effectiveness and cost-efficiency of self-designed training plans compared to hiring a coach

[@lisapet160]

7:28 It is one of the natural states for Homo Sapiens, the fasted state. Running on carbs for hours is not.

[@LeaTUSTRA]

I will never train fasted.

[@CharitonIosifides]

Fat is a “carb”. I suppose you are talking about glycogen (stored in the muscles) and glucose (stored in the blood and liver). Muscles will ALWAYS use glycogen and glucose. The body ALWAYS carries a full load of glycogen and glucose. And it will ALWAYS start to replenish that reserve as soon as any activity starts depleting it. From the intestine if carbs are available there (because it has a lower energy cost and it is faster) OR from the fat (which is also a carb) stored in the body (a slower process with a higher energy cost). Mostly because the brain (far more important than any muscle) uses glucose as fuel as well and if at any moment the body detects that it has not enough glucose for the brain it will go into emergency shutdown and divert all available glucose to the brain to protect it. (You can see this in marathoners, even elite ones, when they cross that limit and start losing control over their body because they are out of fuel). Simple really.

[@elliotthough765]

Two carb addicted athletes trying to debate the benefits of a fat adapted athlete exercising during a fasted state? Which was the most common metabolic state for humans for at least 190,000 years when humans were basically carnivores. If you are fat adapted and in a fasted state, you are most likely in ketosis and ketones supply the energy to your muscles and brain instead of glycogen. The main benefit isn’t burning more fat but instead increases the amount of autophagy you will achieve from your fast.

[@muttleyinlove8648]

I agree and do it all the time. If you put in the work to become metabolically flexible, then running (or biking, gym work, etc) in a fasted state is natural and feels great. I have no issue with it; the only way to understand it is to try for yourselves to get the effect. No more 'carb-loading' for me; that was normal 25 years ago.

[@andrewmcalister3462]

Probably had some yams for breakfast, and snacked on some berries/seeds along the way as they persistince hunted their prey during the hottest part of the day.

[@jszn]

Sorry to sy it, but the preparation for this debate was just not enough. Of course you can run more if you have fuel, but what about the metabolic claims for fasting workout? There are a lot of processes in our body, "being logical" doesn't always work out how we expect!

[@robwood7175]

I regularly do fasted training and perhaps have a bullet proof coffee beforehand (black coffee, MCT oil and thick cream). I’m fat adapted as I eat carnivore/keto. I don’t think it would work for the 98% who are sugar addicted, or should I say reliant on carbs for energy. Last year I did a 35 mile run/walk taking seven hours and only consumed water, electrolytes and about 20 carbs

[@bababaanarama]

It works, yes. But with sugar you would perform faster.

[@coachjohn]

What's funny is I just posted a video on Fasted Running yesterday. @coachjohn