Is there too much Ability Haste in League?

[@minimoYT]

Download Porofessor to have 100% certainty that your jungler really is autofilled: links.overwolf.com/minimo-poro

[@GGiGotHydra]

One thing i belive should also be done if the mythic bonus removal if it doesnt do anything is to add scalings to assassins with lethality as a stat (ex Pyke E stun scales with lethality). For Zed there could be like more Lethality bigger W CD refund on melee Es (for compensation nerf maybe increase W CD rank ups or remove rank ups worth as a whole). This is just a quick spitball but it would be an unique way of balancing them. Just like how ADCs prioritize crit.

[@Scudmaster11]

Reasons why I say AD has been given everything to cheat succeeding on a challenge platter... while AP is really ignored

[@Scudmaster11]

I want CDR back... it was a more balanced option... and easier to read

[@Kiannka]

The problem is that ad assassins have this luxury of every item giving them haste while ap assassins or mages do not and they all have to use spells to burst down targets

[@elcareemojifome5562]

Man i sure love seeing the zed farm safe from a whole kilometer of distance for then proceed to roam bot, get double kill and repeat until his R can kill under tower.

[@herpyderp3384]

Should be other way around(not30 for every item ofc), as ad champs actually do dmg with their autos.

[@adamjustice6485]

I think you mean Deathcap and Void are too necessary not to build, and neither of them have ability haste. Because every Gragas, Vlad and a decent chunk of other mages very much enjoy having a LOT of haste. And they don't need to build attack damage items to get it.

[@andrewjoakim3690]

And we don’t have sustain

[@permastuned4066]

​@@elcareemojifome5562sounds like katarina

[@Dragojent]

I think the best solution to this problem would be separation of haste from other stats, making it a core stat like AD. There should be haste items that give mainly haste and then maybe some other stats. That would force people to decide what they want more: to hit harder or to hit more often. This would solve the power creep forcing players to chose one or the other while allowing anyone to build haste, no matter the role

[@valdismaurins230]

Completely agree. Back in the day CDR was prevalent on defensive/support items and the player had to decide to either deal more damage less often by buying ad/ap or do less damage more often by buying armor/mr/hp. There has to be a downside for the ability to spam spells more often. The other problem with this is in this age of dashes/blinks/invisibilty when some champs are nearly impossible to catch due to low CD on mobility spells. Also champion cooldowns are being chosen and balanced considering the ah available to them not the other way around where.

[@nam-dm1ut]

That was literally the case before ability haste, I came back to palying a bit and now every item just feels similar, it's like each item choice matters less and less

[@BartixShieldsmen]

I mean I think Gragas is also a disgusting example of this, there is a realistic point that his E would have no downtime since his E reduces his cooldown by 3 seconds if he hits a target, and the target is knocked up for one second. Genuinely he's capped by mana alone.

[@KatherynneF]

Gragas had a cooldown cap applied to his E because of this

[@BartixShieldsmen]

@@KatherynneF When was this because I'm just after seeing a video of it from 10 days ago and there's nothing in the patch notes about it. Sloppy Walrus if you're curious.

[@Elixstris]

To be fair, its a hyper specific build that doesnt really do anything except for spamming E. Sure it can work, but its a meme build that doesnt do much

[@Gico_xD]

@@BartixShieldsmen The build is horrible, he has to play support, buy clever, shojin and the support pink item.

[@Demoneye097]

​@@BartixShieldsmenHe's probably talking about wild rift cus ain't no way that is in lol yet

[@shamrock3957]

On certain champs, yes, there's way too much haste. Other champs need that much haste just to be competitive given that without it, they combo once they have to wait 10-15 secs just to have anything except autos and typically have weak to meh autos. In that time, certain champs have used their combo or key ability 5 or 6 times.

[@minimoYT]

Galio moment lol

[@Vitusdex]

@@minimoYT I really want pre Mythic Galio back, it was so fun playing an AP juggernaut

[@Nipotazzi]

Vladimir only works BECAUSE of AH, without it he wouldn't be playable at all.

[@bappojujubes981]

​@@Nipotazzi your pfp reminds me of Mechawreck

[@TehNoobiness]

Riot needs to either give assassins way longer cooldowns so that they have to _actually_ commit to a dive and either kill or die in one combo, or they need to give everyone else much shorter cooldowns so that they can keep up with assassins. If they want the game to be URF, let it be URF for _everyone,_ dammit!

[@alanhe4476]

haste doesn't have diminishing returns because going from 2 sec cd to 1 sec cd is doubling your damage, but going from 1 sec to 0 sec cd is infinite (technically not because of animation speeds and server tick rate) its not a soft cap, its a system where each point of ability haste increases the effectiveness of the spell by a linear amount

[@adriangutierrez441]

Yeah I think of it like having 100 AH(Ability Haste) means you can use abilities 100% more often (2 times the spells in the same time). Having 200 AH means you can use your abilites 200% more often (3 times as often). So it has "diminishing returns" in the same way most stats in the game have "diminishing returns", a 10 ad increase is more impactful when you have 60 ad than when you have 500 ad.

[@alanhe4476]

@@adriangutierrez441 from a purely damage standpoint yes, you want to spread your damage sources because they're multiplicative off each other, but on someone like zilean, unless you give me enough ap to oneshot someone with a bomb, i'll take the haste

[@mitoma31]

I think enchanters illustrate how haste should work. Not a "gift" you get for free on your item, but an active and deliberate choice with trade-offs between haste and non-haste items.

[@Rhapsodos_X]

Riot Games: "Mana is an archaic resource and bad design." Also Riot Games: "-8s cooldowns go brrrrr"

[@LastFrostman]

I think originally Health countered mages because they had limited damage. A lot of it, mind you, but if you built two hp items to their two items... You would be unkillable, unless your opponent was Le Blanc for some reason. I think Mages having their optimal build have any cdr, along with the steady cooldown buffs they've given globally to all champs over time (see Syndra. She was once considered to be a mage with a very low cooldown on her 'q', but now people barely acknowledge that her 'q' is out of line with other mages), is inherently missing the design of a mage. And because they've messed up the design of mages, they have fully and effectively removed the concept of a tank. All that remains is a bruiser, and a much better at killing than normal bruiser. Which are now described as a tank, then a bruiser. Remember when it was considered dumb to throw every cooldown on a tank? Because if the enemy team was around to capitalize, then they would just walk on over you? Remember as Singed, being so fed that you could walk through the entire team. Remember Malphite being only good into ad, and if there was too much ap then he kinda just cried? Remember veigar being the only ap champ to beat tanks because he would farm for twenty minutes and do enough damage to kill a whale? Remember Nasus being weak early game? Remember his ult being only, fine... I miss tanks. I don't want to one shot people as Malphite. I don't build full ap Singed every game because tank doesn't work. I don't want to be a bruiser disguised as a tank. I don't want percentage damage on half of all champions. I don't want enough cdr to press buttons every second of the day. I don't want Leona to ACTUALLY perma stunlock me for four straight seconds. I don't want people to ignore Blade of the Ruin King because it's not necessary for tank busting...

[@PotatoVariety]

The solution is removing haste from 50% of the AD items that have iit, then giving it more useful stats or reducing their cost slightly with a stat buff to compensate.

[@Magoflipante85]

There are supposed to be DPS champions, and burst champions. You can't have burst champions spamming their abilities to the point that DPS (On-hit, crit, etc) seems pointless

[@lilililiililili6363]

Burst per second lol

[@ZerglingOne1]

@@lilililiililili6363 When the ADC is critting 1k every hit, it's burst per second.

[@breakingbadest9772]

I think ability haste is a little bit excessive now, cause you have champions with flat second reduction like ez and thresh and it feels HORRIBLE to play into. A fed ez or thresh can steamroll without counterplay. Thresh can litterally q every 2 sec (or something around that) with 130 ability haste which is basically perma cc.

[@duytran9086]

Thresh spends all of his life having 3s CD reduction on Q hit, then s13 hit and ADCmainEasyGankPhreak decided to buff him so much that they have to back peddle and make Q reduce only 2s on hit.

[@ghendman4622]

meanwhile impregnator gragas: plap plap plap

[@LiuTienanOfficial]

💀@@ghendman4622

[@artemsheen8064]

​@@ghendman4622get pregnant

[@dxhynieee]

​@@ghendman4622impregnator gragas is not a real thing without premades, and facing actual humans in the enemy team

[@Kwabsii]

As ADC Main, I'd prefer a one shot combo with long CDs. As it is now, there often is no safe way for me to approach a team fight, because every team has at least one bruiser with sub-3 second cd dash and CC that I can't kill in the time their mobility is down or when they are CCd. And when they get on top of me, I die anyways, so I don't really feel the "high CDR, low damage" approach. I liked when I was able to apply champion knowledge to find windows of opportunity. Now, I have to rely on my team to basically win the team fight mostly without me and I get to clean up after them.

[@permastuned4066]

Then a 2 armour item malphite ults and 100 to 0 one shots you

[@Playmaker150]

Meanwhile Galio is the opposite and his abilities are 12 secs long each with his R being 3 mins CD, which is one of the main reasons he hasn't seen play or been good for a long time. His oppositions have much more access to AH than he does while also having lower base CDs than he does. But if he tries to stack AH, then his dmg drastically drops off hard due to his high AP ratios. His full combo without R is 305% AP+10% max HP+4% max HP more per 100 AP with very good base numbers.

[@axylum4453]

AP champs in general have to make sacrifices if they want to stack comparable AH to AD champs. Items like Serylda grudge is such a spit in the face for AP users

[@minimoYT]

Galio just doesn't feel good to play because of it. He's got the worst of every class, he's too squishy to be a tank, too immobile to be a bruiser, has too little damage to be a diver/assassin, cooldowns are too long to be a disruptor, so he just spends more time waiting for cooldowns than actually playing the game

[@Playmaker150]

@@minimoYT Exactly. Worst part is that he jrecently got 2 buffs back-to-back and his win rate and pick rate hasn't moved at all. I main him and it sucks that he's essentially a cc bot that is over reliant on Zhonyas active to buy even more time for his abnormal long CDs. Wouldn't mind trading AP ratios for lower CDs. But the balance team have nightmares of Galio dominating pro play many seasons ago so they avoid giving him meaningful buffs. They also don't want him to be a proper anti-mage as his lore suggest due to pro play.

[@海誠ー]

He also used to be good buying banshees veil first to super counter mages but now thats not worth for obvious reasons

[@axylum4453]

@@minimoYT It seems like the success of an AP champ is completely dependent on their how well their kit works in the current game state. Champs like Ahri, Syndra, Gwen, Gragas, Morde etc. still do well because of their kits. Whereas other champs such as Vel'koz, Galio etc. suffer and have very clear flaws despite their win rates being near 50% on average. This isn't the case for AD champs because their items come with everything they need to compensate for their kits' weaknesses while not making any sacrifices.

[@Aurochs330]

I think ability haste should be much less prevalent in general, having only some items that give it for each class, sort of like grievous wounds. It absolutely should be a trade off. Not every champ should need it or want to build it and that’s okay. It doesn’t make sense that an ap champ as in ABILITY power would have the worse options for ABILITY haste.

[@tsm_maxiti8902]

Babe wake up minimo just dropped a new video

[@gabrieldavid4250]

the thing is that on one hand, people used to say that assassins can one shot way too easily, they nerfed that to some extend but, in doing so, they ve created "ad mages", they can t exactly one shot anymore unless they re extremely fed and the enemy either itemized wrong or is extremely under leveled. so they just made the assassins be "annoying",killng you slowly over time. I truly miss killing an adc in 1 zed rotation...

[@Rncko]

AD Leblanc and Ahri be like : Dash in --> Auto --> Dash out --> Repeat until/and WIN.

[@Tier3RoderikaSimp]

Thresh : it seems u have forgotten me

[@pedrosimoes1299]

Pretty sure you can still oneshot adcs in one rotacion if you hit the spells

[@permastuned4066]

​@@pedrosimoes1299not when you are even

[@Notllamalord]

Yeah it makes no sense, it’s so strong but is thrown in like a freebie

[@John-jb1ky]

The issue here is ad assassins building items not of their class. This means one of two things. Either their base dmg is cracked because they can get away building non lethality items (à lux building liandry demonic and cosmic does negative dmg) Either the items in of themselves are broken and need to be nerfed. Also the assassin dilemma is easy : if my full combo hits, you die of I miss even one of my abilities, I am a melee minions for 10 seconds and get mowed down to death by the enemy dps.

[@ragegaze3482]

The problem isn't that their base scaling's are high enough to build other items lol, it's that the lethality items suck ass. So they are forced to buy bruiser items, assassins are the weakest role in the game lol, if the lethality items were good they would build them. The bruiser items do need nerfed you are right, but the lethality items also need buffed. If you just nerfed bruiser items and kept lethality items as are for assassins, they would legit be unplayable. Full lethality hasn't been a thing for a long time unless you are facing literally 5 squishies which never happens.

[@themonster9577]

​@@ragegaze3482ye people don't understand that if zed (for example) is being built like this , is because the full leth build kinda suck ass ngl. While on the other side you can build bruiser item (since they are over tuned) and have more tankyness and dmg over time. The problem is that if assassin would be able to burst with leth build , player will still complain about being oneshotted , if assassin build more for DPS player would still complain. Seems like assassin can't stand in this game

[@pgo3925]

1 major think I think we're forgetting in the math department is how you state that you get diminishing returns with high ability haste, which is true, but not as harshly as you put it. when you have a 10 sec cooldown ability (for simplicity's sake), with 100 haste it will be 5, the next hundred it's 3.33 and 2.5, 2. Sure the first 100 knocks off 5 entire seconds compared to 1.66 (3 times less), comparatively to the cooldown, 5/10 is 50% reduction, 1.66/5 is still 33% reduction, which means you can use an ability 5 times extra in the time it used to take 10 usages, this is still a huge increase in uptime. And that's not even getting starting on abilities with a set duration, things that start an effect for say 3 seconds with a 10 seconds cooldown, with 100 haste it will double your uptime from 30% (3/10) to 60% (3/5), but the next 100 extra will still add 30% uptime (3/3.3) for 90% uptime of the ability with 200 haste. Another is zed's W, which has a 5 second teleport back timer, which CANNOT be reduced, so if your cooldown is less than 5, you can't teleport in one direction (ofcourse if you go back you can teleport before those 5 sec) within that time even though you have enough haste. This makes it so that zed can pretty easily get 100% uptime on a medium range blink.

[@1000g2g3g4g800999]

Another way to look at the haste formula (and the resistance formulas), is, in the case of haste, the number is a percentage increase in how many times you can use an ability in a given period of time (and in the case of armor/mr, a percentage increase in your effective hp pool vs physical/magic damage).

[@1000g2g3g4g800999]

In other words, the "diminishing returns" aren't even that. The stats scale linearly individually.

[@mr.cat.6284]

I think the reduction of ah and dmg is the best option the chances of tank meta coming bact is very slim just because of the sheer amount of tank busting items and precent health dmg we have in items and champion kits

[@lilililiililili6363]

tank meta is cancer. Most unfun meta in the game. Tanks should get removed completely as a role

[@mr.cat.6284]

@@lilililiililili6363 To be honest I enjoy tank meta more than assassin meta.

[@lilililiililili6363]

ofc as a support egirl main what would u prefer lmao. @@mr.cat.6284

[@ragegaze3482]

@@mr.cat.6284Assassin meta is crazy though, we haven't had that in years lol. It's a mage meta right now, oriana/ahri/syndra are by far the best picks right now. Assassin have been on fumes for a while. as far as I can remember it's mostly been bruiser meta for the longest time, now it's switching to mage. Assassins were back when hydra was op for a short period of time but gone since then

[@Teknospacepotato]

AH doesn't give diminishing returns in terms of abilities/second. ie. if you have 1 q per second at 0 AH, you have 2/s at 100 AH, 3/s at 200AH, 4/s at 300 AH. If you want to maximize uptime, it can give diminishing returns depending on how its used. An example of this is Galio ult; you don't cast that as soon as it comes up most of the time. But other abilities actually work the opposite way, like stuns. Lets say Jarvan q has a 10 second cooldown at 0 AH, and is a 1 second stun(for ease of math). If Jarvan qs you off cooldown, then you are unable to act for 1 out of every 10 seconds. Now let's say Jarvan has 100 AH. His q has a 5 second cooldown and still stuns for 1 second. If he still uses it as soon as it comes up, you are unable to act for 1 out of every 5 seconds, or 2 out of every 10 seconds. That cuts the proportion of time that you are able to act by 11% (-1/9). Now, let's compare this to 200 AH. At 200 AH, Jarvan q would have a 3.33 second cooldown and stun for 1 second. That is 3 qs per 10 seconds, leaving you with 7 second out of 10 to act. comparing this to 100 AH, you are able to act for 12.5% less time than you were at 100 AH. In this way, some abilities scale exponentially(not technically exponential) with ability haste.

[@Kyle-nm1kh]

Firstly, j4 doesn't stun with Q. Secondly, you can't look at it with purely numbers. It's all about how big of an impact an ability has on or off cooldown. If it's on cooldown, do you lose the fight? If it's off cooldown, do you win the fight? The 40% cap was there for a reason. It's so champions like Kassadin can't spam R. So champions like Nocturne, like Amumu, like Malphite can't R every fight. Without the 40% cap, the meta has shifted. Not only are ability centric champions meta, but adc is going out of meta. Because of ability haste.

[@MrEagorath]

@@Kyle-nm1kh I thought this was why Kaisa adc became popular cause she's a hybrid abilty + adc champion (can be). and why Cait and Jinx also has surged lately, due to their burst potential to (more or less) delete assassins etc with abilities?

[@Kyle-nm1kh]

@MrEagorath they don't usually buy much ability haste. They are picked for consistency in laning phase, team fights, and survival. The 3 most important things to carry

[@MrEagorath]

@@Kyle-nm1kh Didn't say haste were the reason why some of them were heavily used lately, but Axiom Arc Cait I would say leaning a bit into the haste part of it? no?

[@Kyle-nm1kh]

@MrEagorath lethality items have haste but they aren't standard for her. That's alternative build designed to have poke with Q and R

[@trustsfundbaby7344]

Assassins used to be able to burst champs on their first rotation and have to wait for things to come back up, but a curtain role complained that was unfair so riot try to swap assassins to this delayed burst which doesn't make sense to now this high cooldown mobility thing. I think assassins should be able to use an ability to gap close, use everything to burst, and if they kill get a way to escape. If they don't they should be stuck in the middle of a fight that they can only auto for. Rengar is a good example of this, he ults in or jumps from a bush, uses his full combo to 1 shot then uses the movement speed from empowered ability and youmuus to escape. Now he is this bruiser that uses high cooldown to get a lot of w's and q's off. Maybe its just me missing old league where items didnt define a champion, champion abilities defined them. Why does a mage get added cc or damage reduction or dash because of an item, why does a bruiser get to aoe slow or heal because of an item.

[@duwanglover3424]

I'm no balancer by any means, so this is purely an idea, but what if mobility skills scaled half as well with CDR? Because Riot is right; casting abilities is fun and I'd rather be whittled down with four casts of an ability than to be truely one shot by it. Having mobility skills be half as effected by CDR would also prevent Champs from just jumping around all over the place

[@Rhyolite-hyena]

Then you meet Rengar jumping around spaming W every 3s. Especially if he pair with Ivern.

[@MichaelZesty]

I love that clip where a 5% hp ksante nearly kills zed from full hp

[@minimoYT]

This is K'Sante, a champion with 4,700 HP, 329 Armor, and 201 MR 👤, has Unstoppable🚫, a Shield 🛡️, and goes over walls 🧱. Has Airborne 🌪️, and the cooldown is only 1️⃣ second too. It costs 1️⃣5️⃣ Mana 🧙‍♂️. The W CD is even refreshed ⏰ when he transforms 💫. He has true damage on his passive 🗡️. Then, when he stacks Armor and MR 🥋, he gets Ability Haste ⏰ too, Ability Haste to his Q 📈, and his spell casting speeds up 📈. Then, he has an AD ratio 🗡️, so his W…AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 😱😱

[@yeetingpotato2934]

​@@minimoYT 200 years amirite?

[@cyanopsittax]

riot: True Suport(Healer/Shielderer) can't have CDR Also Riot: Assassins,tank,Mage 65% CDR, Balanced 👍

[@TheSorrowfulAngel]

As the riot post explained, it's not about wether assassins have burst or not, it's about how they burst. Assassins can get to a state where an extremely simple "combo" that is basically unmissable or low risk can one-shot. If that state is reached too quickly, assassins are very unhealthy. It's like when Shadow Kayn kills with W->Q->AA. Very little gameplay left if he gets to that state. Or Zed being able to kill you without R2 and without shadow shuriken. To prevent assassins reaching this state, riot took power out of burst per item. But what else do you give assassins then? Bruiser stats on assassins are oftentimes really frustrating. Actual bruiser need those defences, cause they WILL take damage. They basically have to or else their gameplay does not function. Assassins however.. they are built around taking no or only little damage in the first place. Their kits are built with their lack of raw bulk in mind - that's why whenever a tank or bruiser assassin build somehow sprung up, it was nerfed in short order. So you dont give them defences. AS sounds downright useless for them. Leaves you with haste and they at least like haste, cause most assassins are pretty much casters. Creates its own set of problems, but its the lesser evil here. The best option would probably be utility, like Umbral Glaive. But going hard into that route would probably end with assassins building 90% bruiser items. They are not hard-bound to lethality as a stat is the thing - and I think they maybe should be via direct lethality scalings(like Pyke has). Hard-binding assassins to lethality could really help to craft more fun and healthy item options for them.

[@huntersuper98]

Underrated comment deserves more attention.

[@xolotltolox7626]

This is pretty wrong, as there is a way assassins are bound to lethality, that you just don't realise: Assassins have way higher AD ratios, but they are BONUS ad ratios, whereas bruisers get total AD ratios

[@minimoYT]

In terms of AD, bruiser items aren't lacking compared to assassin ones. Death's Dance and Shojin give 55, the same as something like Prowler's Claw or Axiom Arc, while Black Cleaver giver 50, not the same, but close

[@minimoYT]

Giving assassins lethality scalings is an interesting idea, maybe Zed's E could refund W cooldown based on bonus lethality, or something like that, just some incentive to build the stat and feel good about it. I agree that haste is a better alternative to the others, so I totally agree with Phroxzon there

[@huntersuper98]

@@xolotltolox7626 Then we shouldn't be seeing assassins regularly building several bruiser items and yet they are. That implies that they're not nearly as bound to Lethality as you might suggest.

[@HeyItsKesh]

100% the case. Far too many items have ability haste. There should be more of a tradeoff between items providing utility/ability haste, and damage.

[@xladbetr8097]

The really nice thing about all this situation with haste and assassins is that in the end we adcs have to deal with it and it’s gonna be frustrating

[@minimoYT]

At least you got Caitlyn on your side, build lethality and you basically play like a ranged assassin lol

[@Baaforsheep]

Yeah when every good ADC is a lethality user…that’s not a good thing

[@TehNoobiness]

I played against an Illaoi the other day who had a 10 second E cooldown at 10 minutes. The last time I played Illaoi I remembered her E having like a 20s cooldown, so it was driving me nuts that she was hooking me twice within the same 1v1. I remember when the Ability Haste rework was pitched as a way to keep ability cooldowns under control...

[@jllemin4]

Cdr isnt the problem, its the lack of mana scarcity.

[@IAmLunaaa]

manamune, energy champs

[@meekumanu]

Mana scarcity is just unfun. Riot balances League around the game being fun. In 2014, mana management was actually something you had to think about and was a skill check for getting good at the game. But the game has changed a lot, and mana has been crept harder than any other stat now.

[@ryanyi7937]

in a pure percentage sense, there is diminishing returns, however, it is static in the sense that you can cast x times more often. for example. if you have 0%cdr then you get 10%cdr, you are effectively able to cast 11% more often, however, if you have 40%cdr and you then get 50% cdr, you get to cast 20% more often. so yes in a pure percentage standpoint, you are getting less percentage from cdr, but the rate at which you get to cast increases linearly

[@ryanyi7937]

think about it like armour as well. if you have 0% damage reduction, then you get 50% damage reduction, you get twice the effective health, but if you have 50%damage reduction then you get 75% damage reduction, you get twice the effective health from 50% again, but there was a big difference in percent change(25/50).

[@RapiereGridoro]

How to understand AH more easy: 0 AH = 1 cast per original CD(Cooldown) 100 AH = 2 casts per original CD 150 AH = 2.5 casts per original CD 200 AH = 3 casts per original CD interpreting the numbers, AH is percentage of bonus cast in relation of the original CD so: '0' AH = 1 original cast + '0'% bonus cast = 1 casts '100' AH = 1 original cast + '100'% bonus cast = 2 casts '175' AH = 1 original cast + '175'% bonus cast = 2.75 casts Why not invest everything in AH? Damage per Second of a Ability = (Casts per Second * Damage Ratio) of that Ability So... in certain point of the game it will be more desirable to buy the Damage Type than AH to improve DPS of the Ability

[@delta4135]

*Me reading this title while playing hecarim:* Nah man. _'Started using Q on negative 1s cd'_

[@JoshTGW]

When it comes to assassins, i have to say i can offer a fairly impartial standpoint because I've played assassins, with them, and against them with several other champions. Too start, to much ability haste for assassins is indeed a problem. There are specific champion classes that should have obvious up-times and down-times with the only class that more or less should have a semi-consistent up-time is DPS characters like marksmen. Marskmen usually deal a fairly consistent amount damage per second while assassins aren't supposed to. Assassins have been designed to be burst-oriented champions or the kind of class that doesn't do DPS, but immediate damage. For an assassin to do a fairly consistent amount of DPS, that would obscure their identity as assassins. If an assassin suddenly became a minigun or AK47, could you still call them an assassin? The answer would be no and they'd be pushed solely into classes like divers, bruisers, fights, or melee carries. Plus this would impeed upon the assassin playstyle and mindset of planning, preparation, proper execution, eliminating the priority target and disengaging all in a matter of a few seconds. Assassins are in my opnion the get in, eliminate the target, and get out kind of champions, not the types that should be consistency up and ready to go at every moment. More and more rotations over the span of a few seconds would completely erode assassins as a class and with them usually having large amount of mobility. It'd also serve to remove counterplay since they could just deal with or evade most, if not all, forms of crowd control with relative ease making things come down who's the fastest as opposed to who has the most skill. For example, point and click crowd control, no problem and move somewhere they can't reach fast enough to act upon the applied crowd control effect and skill shots would become too easy to dodge for them.

[@LordIvor6]

I've just realised almost every item gives CDR now which is weird cause I remember in the past having maybe 1 item tops that gave a bit (like pre-2014/15 ish?!). I think this is one of the reasons why ADCs are getting clapped so hard, even if you can outplay an assassin/diver champ, literally 3s later they can repeat their combo. Could just be me.

[@plasmodius9449]

1:53 correction, not 2019, but late 2020 (November). New items got released in season 11

[@Tinopachanga]

10:20 but then assassins would be the same as mages. I think people do not comprehend sometimes how hard is to balance in videogames, mainly in competitive. That said, League of Legends is, overall, a pretty balanced game. Especially having in mind they add new champs every 2 months.

[@minimoYT]

Most mages don't really kill in one rotation unless they build for full burst, which doesn't give much haste at all, so the problem kinda solves itself. With AD assassins and bruisers, the amount of damage they sacrifice is negligible compared to the amount of haste they get from building items that deal good damage anyway

[@Tinopachanga]

@@minimoYT But then it's a matter of buffing those mages that actually cant rely on themselves. Have also in mind that, while is true they are weak and have been for long, champs like Xerath, who have other things going for them (Can hit you from fountain) cannot be as oneshotty as a per se Veigar.

[@wingman4902]

They could make cdr apply only half to stuns and movement abilities (aside from r)

[@Rhyolite-hyena]

Then you meet a Rengar jumping around spamming W every 3s

[@wingman4902]

@@Rhyolite-hyena as someone with two hundred ish games on rengar, don’t sit around bushes and use cc. Darius and sett both destroy him top and hecarim can stomp him jg

[@jimgreen8476]

A potential solution could be in changing the roles of assassins from killers to disruptors - instead of being able to one shot squishies, they can run in, get them low enough to the point where any other teammate or ability rotation WOULD kill them. This way, there is counter play for squishier champs that is desperately needed, assassins don't run quite so prevalent in solo queue, and mobility is more of a resource because of the pressure and threat applied from it rather than the unfair advantage it is now, where a champ with mobility is far superior to one with no mobility due to not having a damage penalty for said mobility. You could also have some assassins take more of a silencing roll instead of a damaging one, where they instead can go to the backline and pin/distract the squishy in some sense maybe with a taunt or silence. I think at the moment, assassins are fundamentally over tuned because they adhere too much to a rock paper scissors type balancing which is 2 dimensional and uncreative, 2 things Riot are not known for being. Having assassins just stack 1 stat until they take over the game is so played out by this point. I think there needs to be more thought behind just pressing R on the backline and then using their mobility spell to get away.

[@dazzek4479]

That could be a good idea, when you look further into it, assassins is the only class where it can only do 1 thing : kill the squishies, whereas mages can be assassins or artillery depending on the champs, same for tanks and bruisers where you have Malphite the wall of armor and at the same time Ornn who is a CC machine and can deal a good amount of dmg I'd like to see subclasses of assassins just like you can have subclasses of every other classes

[@spaghetimilk561]

Wow, glad ur not on the balance team

[@jimgreen8476]

Why? What are the downsides to the ideas? I can think of a few but I'm curious what others think @@spaghetimilk561

[@1000g2g3g4g800999]

On one hand, things like Duskblade which rely on actually getting the kill to get a desired effect (a way out of the user here) would be hurt a lot by this, on the other, Duskblade is the kind of item that should maybe be removed anyway, and resets on kills in general can lead to tragedy and just force people who are low and/or squishy to not participate in a fight at all.

[@ragegaze3482]

@@jimgreen8476Assassins would just be engage supports at that point, it's not even an assassin anymore. Think of ap rakan, that's what he described. Another downside is that assassins need kill pressure or else they couldn't lane, they already struggle to lane against other roles, if they didn't have the ability to kill their target then they would be giga useless. Another downside I can think of is that it seems to forget that assassins are inherently squishy and die to almost any cc, if they went in to distrupt they would just instant die shortly after and not even have a kill as compensation. And the final thing off the top of my head is that if you made this change then adcs would be by far the best role in the game and it wouldn't be close, the main thing that balances out squishies is that they need to be scared of assassins, which forces them to group up with their cc in order to prevent themselves from dieing. If they didn't have to worry about being 1 shotted by stepping out of position, they would just steamroll.

[@gabrielbaima7891]

But Jarvan Q is meant to have a cooldown as low as to allow him to Q the same E twice at Q level 5. I remember when they lowered the cd so it was possible and they had this exact play in mind :(

[@segafan2437]

Reduce cooldowns ...maybe reduce some base damages. But as much as i love high haste builds. It is no fun to play againts at all.

[@SuperbFairy]

Not sure why they don't just go back to the old system of cooldown reduction having a hard cap, if there's a limit to what any champion can potentially have for CDR then they can actually balance ability cooldowns with items, instead of what we have now where some chars want 100 ability haste and others stop at 30

[@minimoYT]

As I've read in other comments, the problem with CDR was that not building in a way that reached the hard cap would be a massive disadvantage, so you either built to 40% CDR, or you were inting. With haste, that's not a problem, but there should be tradeoffs to focusing on haste, like there is with AP items currently

[@Aeeloran]

i actually believe the way they capped CDR before was better, yeah it was easier to reach, but at least you had to decide when to cap it

[@Ithynify]

the thing with the haste is just u cant punish if they waste her spells , they have it up way to fast again and so deleting her counterplay

[@lowelovibes8035]

with zed u have energy, if u dont hit doble skillshot u run out of energy pretty fast

[@ragegaze3482]

@Hendrix_HollandYou must be thinking of a difference patch. They removed the ability for hydra to heal with abilties anymore. He only heals with auto attacks now and it's a pitiful amount. Zed W cd is like 20 seconds lol, if he uses it on the wave you are safe for the next 20 seconds. Zed has to give up his early game threat if he uses W on the wave. The laning phase against zed isn't hoping the zed is bad. The laning phase of zed is purely based on how well you dodge his WEQ, if he isn't able to poke you down low enough to kill you by lvl 6, then he's in a bad spot.

[@mr.g1672]

The thing is, if they nerf the items he talked about here. It would harm the intended users, bruisers. They actually need that AH cuz their cool downs are very long, and to be able to stick in the thick of a fight, which is their job, unlike assassins they can't just zoom around or escape if they do a bad engage, a bruiser must fight their way out of a fight or die trying and they need good haste for this. I guess a possible solution is to nerf the items but also reduce the cool downs of all bruisers.

[@torahama362]

Doesnt brusier have higher innate base ad? What if they just nerf the ad or hp? Take like 5ad and 50hp off or sth. Though i think they are already doing it with the slight nerf to shojin a few patches ago as an example.

[@mr.g1672]

@@torahama362 AD and Hp? Yeah, totally, but all bruisers depend heavily on their abilities and they all have rather long cool downs in general which is why they need a bit of haste to keep up otherwise they'd be just a sitting duck. You can't just auto attack someone to death as a Garen or as a Morde

[@anbedaton]

bring back tank meta - now tank is no more durable than brusers/assassin's because in most cases don't have sustain and mobility also don't have damage mitigation ( even riot don't know WTF is Ksante)

[@dankmemes8254]

You should ask showmaker about k'sante

[@minimoYT]

This is K'Sante, a champion with 4,700 HP, 329 Armor, and 201 MR 👤, has Unstoppable🚫, a Shield 🛡️, and goes over walls 🧱. Has Airborne 🌪️, and the cooldown is only 1️⃣ second too. It costs 1️⃣5️⃣ Mana 🧙‍♂️. The W CD is even refreshed ⏰ when he transforms 💫. He has true damage on his passive 🗡️. Then, when he stacks Armor and MR 🥋, he gets Ability Haste ⏰ too, Ability Haste to his Q 📈, and his spell casting speeds up 📈. Then, he has an AD ratio 🗡️, so his W…AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 😱😱

[@Zachiderp]

I play the mobile version of league which is quite different(shorter games, no mythics) but it might approach a similar issue. Personally I prefer having assassins take longer to kill in multiple rotations than high cd instakills since a lot of their combos essentially have no counterplay for the squishy targets aside from maybe zhonyas(still longer cd) and proper positioning can only go so far when they have so much more mobility than you in most cases. I do think they should still win 1v1s against adcs and other squishies but it should take a longer time rather than it being basically instant.

[@nanashialfarr]

not only that, but you see caitlin and mf building lethality and oneshotting people now, lethality items need a nerf

[@SuraiKitsune]

Well, since a decade, I say league got only one solution : make every champ overpowered. Mark my words.

[@trojanvirusmalware1219]

So dota 2 every hero op = no hero op everybody op = balance

[@jususi71]

riot just needs to revert the cdr changes, hardcapping it at 40 and making it so every single item doesnt have cdr on it, playing around champion cooldowns is only a thing before people has built 2 items where they essentially start playing urf thanks to runes and items, dragons, etc.

[@mermixeratz2726]

Comparing Serylda's with Rylai's doesn't really work since many Assassins dont really care about the slow component of the item and would still build it if it didn't slow.

[@minimoYT]

This makes sense, but then it doesn't change the fact that it's a bloated item. Black Cleaver is the biggest offender, because it's a huge haste item, but also gives good AD, gives armour shred, and lots of HP to go with it. They're just too well-rounded

[@Lionhart1991]

Riot only need to increse the cd of the skills in champs that can abuse it with very high AH, should be easy right?

[@duytran9086]

Damage Creep pretty much destroyed this game on a fundamental level. Assassin one-tap ADC by basic abilities within 0.3s, so they buff ADC dmg, and now they 3 4 tap a tank/bruiser. Now Bruiser/Assassin opt to Dmg/Haste because tank stat is pretty much dogshit now, and Dmg Creep is so high that getting 50% CDR sacrifices no Dmg AT ALL. Same can be said to Haste. Full Dmg 6 items build used to be a meme build, but now they are the optimal build.

[@coffeebreak7978]

Sure you wanna have ad champ with no cooldown great but can we have voidstaff and relyais become one item

[@jennywithaglock3916]

ive got so much rage in my soul when it comes to how bloated AD item creep is. They all give haste, half a thousand hp, armor/mr atleast 2 passives, lethality or %pen etc. any everyone else is paying MORE gold for LESS stats its wild, and it justified by "well mages end up getting more AP than AD champs have AD" yeah when they buy the most expensive item in the game, and need about 13k gold to hit that spike anyway. a 2-3 item ad champ has more or the same AD as a 2 item mage has AP AND higher damage ratios and more haste to out-spam. either everyone is as op at ad toplane items that do 3 things at once when you buy it for only 1 thing OR you nerf those items by increasing their cost and/or removing some stats/passives

[@wilkham2678]

I main Vel'Koz and my build is currently Lucidity boot/Liandry/Horizon Focus/Rabadon/Cosmic Drive/Voidstaff. The haste on Vel is super important to just be able to do your combo more than two times per fight. The fact that AD bruiser/lethality champions can go above 100 ability haste by just building theirs basics items is really annoying. It's like the haste is a bonus stat they don't even need, when mage and ADC get 0. For example if you build a typical burst mage, Lux for example with Sorc/Luden/Lichbane/Voidstaff/Rabadon/Shadowflame, you get 15ah. Good thing Vel'koz can invest into haste more easily even if Vel'koz without haste is super clunky.

[@jarenpocopio6033]

2000 years baby

[@kayanono]

Yes. Thanks for watching

[@GomuOnBush]

Hope you blow up soon your vids are excellent

[@Evenchully]

Gragas E be like: 🫄🫄🫄🫄🫄🫄🫄🫄🫄🫄🫄🫄 0s cd w/ 250 ability haste

[@Krimson51]

I think in damage focused abilities should be on short cooldowns and utility abilities like CC and movement ones should be on very long cooldowns. The problem with champions like Pantheon, Jarvan, etc. is that they have very big CC abilities on super short cooldowns and that isn't very interactive. I have no issue with Zed spamming shurikens all fight long, but something like his shadow should remain a long cooldown to allow more obvious gaps in his rotations that can be punished.

[@sno7599]

Haste lets me use my abilities more so I can play the game more so im all for haste creep for at least a little while.

[@minimoYT]

I don't oppose the haste creep as much as most people, but there should be something to compensate, like I don't think an item like Black Cleaver should give as many stats as it does while having that passive, Duskblade giving that much haste as a burst item also doesn't make much sense. I prefer the assassin fantasy of having a little plan to take one target, you go in, they explode, you leave, and wait for cooldowns. With the opportunity to build that much haste with no downsides, the optimal playstyle is more aligned with bruisers and low cooldown control mages rather than assassins, so the class has an identity crisis

[@amethonys2798]

​@minimoYT the issue is that is how magic based "assassins" have to play. You play something like Ahri you have to play for vision and pray you hit E to do anything or you do nothing for like 10 seconds. Heaven forbid you waste ult and don't have it for 2 minutes since the only reasonable CDR item you can buy before like 4th item is your mythic. Meanwhile Zed go brrr and can even play as a poke mage because imagine thinking you can punish him for using his shadow to harass after 2 items. Oh no, he has to ult to disengage, don't worry it'll be back in like 50 seconds.

[@Srlqulongtard]

Seems like the issue is just power creep. It can either take the forms of 1 shotting or no cooldowns, but giving champions excessive stats changes the way league is played. It seems like people like not instantly dying, being able to punish wasted cooldowns, and reduced snowballing, so why exactly is a tank meta bad? More tanks in the game mean carries always have big targets to hit and are more lilely to get champions that can peel or body block for them. Bruisers get forced into itemizing either anti-tank or bulk, so they deal less burst damage. Lastly, a player being behind on a tank means theyre far less lilely to feed since the class already wants to build defence. You get more stable games where a player goes 0/2 and down a level on an inherently useful class as opposed to 0/5 and down 3 levels on a glass canon.

[@SevenSinshu]

What was the ost that played at 0: 0:31 and amazing video honestly , I feel like league has just become a no counter play cooldown simulator

[@minimoYT]

Tomorrow as Myself, from Mogeko Castle. Also nice OneShot pfp

[@SevenSinshu]

@@minimoYT Ty

[@salmonroe5608]

Honestly, I hate how many dashes and speedups there are in the game. And ability haste abuse basically doubles their number. I'm a blitzcrank main... Why do i still have a slow after my w when assassin's base MS is faster that my sped up speed, AND they still have 3 dashes ? yeah....

[@TigerKirby215]

The problem is that Ability Haste is universal for all abilities, but not all abilities are made equal. Ability Haste on Zed's shurikens doesn't mean much: "Oh boy he has more ranged poke." Ability Haste on Zed's teleport however is extremely obnoxious. But with the way Ability Haste works currently there's no way to allow both shuriken spam and reasonable teleporting: either teleporting has an ungodly long cooldown without Ability Haste (bottlenecking Zed's builds which isn't fun) or Shurikens are made more spammable without Haste so Zed players still have fun without stacking Ability Haste (but that makes Zed stronger and doesn't fix the problem of stacking Haste for TP spam.) This concept also applies to CC abilities and tanking / healing abilities. Ability Haste isn't as bad on Enchanters but it's a big reason why some Enchanters feel like they provide way too much sustain right now, contributing to anti-heal being near-mandatory to buy.

[@Tiagocf2]

I think the problem isnt that there is too much haste in the game, but that League's itemization is bad and certain items sometimes do too much and lacks identity, like seryldas. Also the Haste formula isnt too nice if you think about it, yes it has diminish returns but the lower your cooldowns the more significant becomes the time it's reduced. On paper 70AH for -2s on abilities is not that good, but if the ability has 4s cooldown to begin with, that's a reducion of 50% effectively

[@minimoYT]

If the base cooldown on the ability is only 4s, then ability haste won't reduce it as much, because you're using that base cooldown to calculate the new one, so with 70 total haste, you do 400/170, reducing the cooldown by ~1.65s. If you already had 100 haste, and buy 70 more to get 170, that new 70 only reduces ~0.52s off of the 2s cooldown from 100 haste

[@1000g2g3g4g800999]

@@minimoYT If you view it from the angle of how many times you can use the ability in a set span of time instead of how much it reduces the cooldown, it isn't even a matter of diminishing returns. 100 AH means you can do it twice as many times, 200 means 3 times as many, 300 4 times as many, that is a stat scaling in linear fashion.

[@hmmyes5536]

I’m on the side of other items need to be brought up, if sheryldas or black cleaver can just be easy go to options due to sheer power where is the equivalent for a mage

[@ThatCrystalityGuy]

Imo I would just prefer 2 ways to build assassins: lethality/ad for insta-kills or ability haste for combos. It also has to be balanced a mix of such builds. For now, we just have to wait for the pre-season and the deletion of mythics.

[@MangoMotors]

It's as if capping ability haste was a fine mechanic they didn't have to mess with

[@xarhs6514]

The thing with Zed is he cannot really spam his W unless he lands both his E ( which is not hard ) AND his Q so he refunds the missing energy. Zed can do 2 full rotations of his W-E-Q or W-Q-E combo with a full energy bar while having 3 items. The thing is, to get to 3 items on Zed at the current state of the meta , it's a pain in the ass. You lose almost every single match up in lane considering nobody interferes if you are on a similar skill level with your opponent. There is no real easy way to snowball as Zed right now and that makes the champion really impossible to perform unless he capitalizes on the enemy's BIG mistakes or his jungler really outperforms the enemy jungler and he capitalizes off of that. There is a reason Zed had and still has a negative win ratio across all divisions and it's that, even though he can build a lot of CDR, his damage is insufficient until 4-5 items and there is so much counter play in the form of items like Zhonya's and Tabis that shut him down early game and prevent him from snowballing. People who think Zed is strong are either delusional or really bad at the game to understand how it truly works and how easy it is to shut down assassins ( with some exceptions of course ) . Playing with an ego against such champions makes their life much easier , playing properly with good spacing and fundamentals makes almost all assassins useless in lane and prevents them from getting back on the game for a very long time. Sincerely , A high Elo Zed OTP. P.S. Learn how to play the game and stop complaining.

[@minimoYT]

I actually think Zed is pretty weak currently. I'm getting to Diamond 3 and so far Zed has never been a problem at all, it's just he is the best personification of the whole ability haste thing. If he builds full lethality as he did in season 11, he can't actually assassinate people, only now he waits twice as long for cooldowns

[@xarhs6514]

@@minimoYT As a person who has reached the top 3% of the player base in terms of skill , I understand that you understand the champion is really easy to counter , the problem is spreading misinformation about champions and how the game works , which in return makes the majority of the player base , which is in majority unskilled and without knowledge , having hate opinions and constantly banning a champion like Zed which is really bad and claiming he is over tuned etc. Zed is actually not the only champion that suffers from this as we can see other examples such as Yasuo , Yone or Katarina.

[@loth-alda]

"It's just simple maths baby" Please don't do that again.

[@minimoYT]

Sorry I posted cringe :(

[@tioaranha4848]

Meenwhile, SoFW and Ardent censor gives 30 AP and no AH

[@marcusshepert105]

i find the problem being bruisers and assassins co existing in the game. Assassin items get nerfed? both classes just build bruiser items. Bruiser items get nerfed? both classes just build assassin items. Hell, they can even build some crit items like essence reaver (Rengar). AD champs just inherently have access to way more items than mages, so they have access to way more ability haste. Mage items just need a rework as a whole considering all mages have the same build path. Ludens/Liandrys > sorc or lucidity > shadowflame > dcap > void with a zhonyas or Mejais somehwere in there. my two mains are GP and Gragas (I like barrels). I notice I ALWAYS have more build options on GP than I do Gragas. Gragas is more unique compared to other mages, so I can't imagine having an even more limited build path than I already do with Gragas.

[@amethonys2798]

The issue is mages don't have "bruiser" items at all for whatever reason so champs like Singed, Swain, Galio, Morde, etc. have to dig from the bottom of the barrel or become completely bound to items like Rylais.

[@KiwiKiwi145]

Bruh I was in a game where nocturne had 3 ability haste items and hes ult was up every 15 seconds its not fair

[@minimoYT]

Axiom Arc on Nocturne is a hell of a drug eh

[@silverandy100]

Thanks. Tank/Haste Zed is why I perma ban the thing

[@ChrisCarlos64]

I kind of feel haste as a whole doesn't need to be. Take that variable away, and you can more easily just say "How long do we want this champ to be vulnerable." Enable them to have downsides, and maybe if you really want to give them a form of CDR, make it a Keystone or something that grants some up to a max amount per level.

[@minimoYT]

I like haste as a stat on items, but not as it is currently for AD where building other things gives haste as a bonus, rather than needing to deliberately go out of your way to build it

[@panlis6243]

I feel like this is the actual problem that causes the mobility creep. I don't mind that every new champion has a dash. I don't like how often they can access those dashes because then it's harder to punish them for misusing them

[@JustAJauneArc]

I think the idea that an assassin with two items should be able to 100 to 0 a two item adc-while it makes sense considering the role-doesn't take into account the ADC's player agency. Some combos as assassins are straight up not hard to land, and it feels shitty to die to something it feels impossible to avoid.

[@CertifriedRatBastrad]

assassins SHOULD be able to oneshot squishy adcs. too bad riot has an anti mage and anti assassin agenda and will buff adcs in some way in the next patch again

[@zachtemoro2116]

Its weird how haste is considered a bad thing, but Spear of Shojin is considered powerful but balanced. I know its more or a bruiser item but it seems like people are way more annoyed about actual Haste and not the item that literally scales atk into haste

[@minimoYT]

I don't think Shojin is balanced lol, it being built with Goredrinker on bruisers like Jarvan and Renekton is half the reason for making this video. It did get a reduction in AD, maybe if they took away 5 more AD and some 50 HP it could be a little less overstatted

[@AlMeZero]

Wait do people really think Shojin is balanced? I actually think it's a pretty strong item especially given the abundance of AD and AH it gives before its passive + usual items that accompany it in builds.

[@torahama362]

@@AlMeZero i think some think it's balanced cause of BC. The item give somewhat similar stats but normally mythic +BC gives enough haste for mid game so armor shred is more useful giving more dmg no matter if the enemy had a tank or not. In the end, both items are strong as hell giving so much haste/hp/ad and a useful passive.

[@mrwhatcanido4942]

i wish you could mix and match the stats of items and then their unique passive/ability and not have them tied to spirit being an MR item while benefiting healing champs.

[@tangostacker4745]

*repeatablity of their onshot rotations. i think that tweet had a typo in it

[@zacharyadler4071]

I’d like it if we had proper roles again. Tanks should be hard to kill (they aren’t) and should not one shot people (they do

[@permastuned4066]

The thing is if you dont have %max health you cant kill them and even then mundo somehow outheals 3 antitank champions while he has antiheal aplied and 1 taps you with heartsteel dealing 1000 damage per proc on a auto attack

[@j3nki541]

Mage haste is fine imo. Its a significant trade off with Pen and Damage. Same for ADCs, its either AS, or CDR, fair trade off. Tanks don't get too much of it. Enchanters kinda get a lot, but its also their champ identity. Only Bruisers and AD assassins get haste for free on absolutely everything with no trade off. Its almost a challenge to not get 100 haste while building meele ad items.

[@nagatasan_21]

As a shen main, I disagree. The only Ability Haste I have was from Heartsteel and Sunfire. Nothing else. Which is why I have to deal with long cooldown timers. Whilst Spirit Visage gives AH it's optional.

[@minimoYT]

Tanks don't have much access to it, not nearly to the same level as AD bruisers and assassins, at least

[@robertharp16]

Look im a Cass player,have been for awile now,AH is so overtuned that by 1-1 1/2 items it seriously feels like most ad assasins have lower cooldowns on average than I do and that just doesnt make any sense

[@nogetmaerkeligt1st153]

I can take example a fed ashe vs a fed bruiser kha' zix having kited and avoided the dmg then to just lag and stand still instead of auto attacking then to get back to him using e w q I got one shot even though I kited him for 6 seconds he had two items more but no armor except steel caps I had kraken, runans, blade of the ruined king, manamune as well as shoes but that could still not do any better than a bruiser assasin I had 2.5k health(resolve secondary second wind and overgrowth) I was going it was 38 mins in 1v1 bruiser assasin can live with soooo much hp but if marksman just lag then dead

[@H0m0f1rST]

Hard agree on your core take at the end. Phroxons response was just very mislead to say the least. The whole point of the assasin class is to assasinate. If you cant kill the enemy carry with a fully executed combo, what is the point of your class? Riot even knows this, hence why p much all assasins still do kill in a single combo most of the time. If they didnt they wouldnt be played. However they have the cdr on top of that, making them a balance nightmare. High cdr like that leads to a lack of macro counterplay. How do you properly punish a zed in lane, when he can clear waves like a caster from range off cooldown. How do you punish a zeds failed assasination/all in attempt, when his w is up again right after he did his full combo? How do you exploit a macro situation to contest an objective if they enemy zed just wasted his ult, when it has below 20s cd? Its frustrating, anti fun design.

[@riverbandit2138]

We need a big item change. One, remove ability haste from a good amount of AD items. Second, give AP more fucking options! Give mages more options and remove fucking deathcap so we’re given more options of items and effects we can use while not sacrificing so much damage

[@Flatebo31]

Axiom arc should have an honorable mention. Pyke has essentially no cd on his ult with the item. Nocturn can use ult at the start and end of every fight, and zed can sometimes ult twice in the same fight. Also, bruiser items should be locked out for assassins if they keep the current state of the game. Most of the current broken assassins aren't broken because they have low cds and can one shot you. They're broken because they have that AND 3. 5k health. So they're actually too tanky to be punished for making mistakes. Having a mobile high damage class is fine, but also making that class one of the tankiest in the game is ridiculous.

[@falsepanda2981]

Urf fun; some bruiser items just do way too much; mage items do too little the serylda vs rylai comparison is painful Champions should be able to opt into utility without completely gutting their damage At the same time why the hell does cleaver have absolutely everything? (pen, ad, ah, hp, ms)

[@mikko-matiaskallio6018]

I'm still salty about riot adding the durability patch which was meant to slow down the game, then suddenly all assassin items gave 40% cdr

[@dislexyc]

Removing CDR cap was a mistake, who could've aeen that coming?

[@im2nub]

my issue is every archetype is now the same at this point where an adc is able to survive a burst from an assassin and a tank can go around basically 1 shotting everyone as if he was an assassin

[@poom323]

There is 20 legendary AD items that has gold efficiency above 100%, while it's only 7 for non support AP, 4 for support, and 2 for Tank,. this seem unfair quite a lot. Remove mythic won't fix if there still too many AD item that has this much gold efficiency, and all of Zed build path are these item. In past, high gold efficiency item are usually be for support, but now it's all for AD assassin and bruiser (and some adc)

[@Alduin57]

Just because an item is gold efficient, doesn’t make it a good item. The type of stats that the item offers is way more important. DMG stats are not as valuable as resistant stats thanks to Tank meta.

[@henryt9731]

7:36 ive been saying this since the introduction of this stupid item. ITS NOT FKING FAIR FOR AP MAGES TO NEED TO BUILD 2 ITEMS WHILE AD MAGES CAN BUILD IT WITH ONE

[@matlax9615]

Meanwile my favorite zeď buil when u go goredringer to shojin to cleaver when E refresh full W in 2 people before nerfs of course

[@AlMeZero]

At this rate, I'd take tank meta making a return by nerfing both Ability Haste and Damage across the board. We do have better tank-shredding options now in the game both in items and in champion themselves. It really is absurd how stacked AD items are, but Bruisers need it due to being limited by long cooldowns. In terms of damage, remember when Singed, Mundo and the like could be fed enough to run into an entire team and just keep disrupting them without risking death immediately? How tanks could actually soak a good chunk of damage and wasting specific abilities on them could lose you a fight despite having a fairly sizable advantage on paper? Tanks didn't necessarily start melting you but they sure could take a beating. Nowadays if you tried that, you're more likely to get killed in the span of maybe 3 seconds, maybe 5 seconds tops. As for AH, I remember back then, in early seasons, League had tips playing as and against Champions as part of the Champion Info, Garen was specifically noted as having the weakness of long cooldowns in exchange for being resourceless, and that tended to stick until later on in the game, if not in its entirety (this was back when you would build Sunfire on Garen, mind you.) and now you can make that problem disappear relatively early on with a purchase of Cleaver and a few components. Or heck Brutalizer being split into Caulfield's and Serrated Dirk specifically because it gave you a good chunk of stats for cheap cost and one slot. I get that it's a component item, but it's kind of ridiculous how Legendary Items (and certain Mythics) give you great stacks on top of an absurd amount of AH that, again, Bruisers need nowadays.

[@Apoz]

"too much ability haste" > Fails to softcap CDR.

[@shadow-xi7vz]

well thats explains the impregnator Gragas