IS THIS A WING FOILING KILLER? BRM PARAWING FIRST IMPRESSIONS & REVIEW

[@pierre-yvesbellot3522]

Parawing is one of the oldest type of wing, i used it in snowkiting trip in Norway in 2009 as the winds were too hardcore for a kite…it’s an amazing ratio size/power/security…superb upwind potential… very hard not to control even if overpowered So great to see it is useable on a foil !!!!!! 🤗🤗🤗

[@deanaoxo]

I love how something old is new again.

[@ChristopherBarger-s5b]

very hard not to control?

[@roelzylstra]

@@ChristopherBarger-s5b i.e, difficult to lose control.

[@PA96704]

Way overpriced, $975-$1200.

[@slashdotdash1]

Thanks for the review Steve, I am really intrigued by this new wind sport. Please keep us updated with videos as you discover more about riding the parawing (good and bad). In the right conditions this looks great fun.

[@irusev]

Super nice review. wanted to know if this is also good for regular foiling not just downinders. The other thought is that it wont hurt to have as a reserve canopy in case something hepens to your wing out there

[@deroux]

Looks amazing. Ive been a 40 year windsurfer and I might acatully try this.

[@deroux]

This might be seriously awesome for ski mountaineering in the smaller sizes.

[@piotrduda5611]

will ikea bag do as well?

[@huzcer]

probably not. but there's no real reason that some knockoffs couldn't be sold for like $150

[@JakeKelsick]

Nice one dude! What a time to be into watersports so many fun and funky ways to SHRED!

[@stevesurfs]

@@JakeKelsick we’re lucky to be able to learn so many new sports!

[@IRWE905]

I wonder if Greg will eventually make the Bridle Lines 3 seperate colours for outside bar and middle lines to make untangling easier/faster

[@bille6596]

I thought the same thing. Seems like a no brainer...

[@davids6447]

This looks amazing, but quite expensive when converted to Aussie dollars! Just wondering if you could use the Ozone Ignition V3 trainer kite with very short lines?

[@foilandwater]

I’ve been following this new parawing and it’s so cool to hear and see how it works. Thanks for taking the time to break it down for us!

[@buenacloud]

A good kite for dock starters, would help me rest and go upwind between pumping phases.

[@jeffreywilkinson1471]

Awesome video! Thanks! Just curious how you "control" the wing left and right. Since the bar is attached to the bridles vertically (front and back), how do you move it left and right? Again, really appreciate the video. 🤙

[@stevesurfs]

@@jeffreywilkinson1471 I have just been rotating the bar left/right to guide the wing to that side of the window, but just the way it works you’re not really “flying” the wing like a kite. It seems like I’m using the board/foil to control where the wing sits in the window and less with the bar.

[@skyhighkite3123]

Prerequisite DW board? Or can you ride a regular 60l wing board?

[@markribkoff]

Great review, just got mine here in Hood River. Testing tomorrow.

[@BrianG-j8o]

Does this wing have any ability to collapse the outer edges in high wind? In Paragliding, a simple technique is called "Big Ears" which collapses the outer tips of the wing to fly or descend in high wind or lift. This would be nice to have a trim setting so one wing can be used in both high and low wind.

[@chrispewkreme]

THIS. I’m excited to see more progress. Possibly ram air? More control of the wing. Seems like an early prototype still.

[@obvioustrash7833]

Why are the lines the same colour. I feel like it would be easier to untangle if the colours were different

[@grahamreed8443]

This is a game changer lapping my favorite zones! My 4M came in today 🤙 Great edit!

[@chrispewkreme]

How’s it going? I’m learning to wing but am much more interested in this. I just don’t know if I want a 4 or 5M.

[@grahamreed8443]

@ great! I haven’t winged since the Parawing arrived. I wouldn’t skip winging unless you are a good prone or SUP foiler. Winging is better depending on the conditions. I’m always targeting swell zones, so parawing is great for upwind downwind laps

[@BatuhanYumrukaya]

what do you suggest for : 125L board - average 12-18 knots wind

[@Paiadakine]

This is cool. I was a windsurfer frequented spreakleville, rio vista and cabriilo. Now a PG freeflier. This is intesting to me.

[@henrymcnamara4863]

So sick! Looked so fun watching you guys…

[@royyoung3033]

Excellent 1st impression Steve!

[@wimsurf]

Just watched this on kite beach Maui today. Awesome for getting out and then foiling back on the wave.

[@fathomfathom]

Thanks. 4m one way. Any tips how to quickly fold and put away without tangling?

[@guillaumegras2200]

How am I going to explain my partner that there’s yet again a revolution in foiling gear and I need it ….

[@stevesurfs]

@@guillaumegras2200 asking forgiveness is always better than asking permission 😜

[@janschenk85]

@@stevesurfs amen

[@manuelpe1979]

Amen... eventhough when you talk about your partner, an unexplored scenary of reactions may occur.

[@StandUpMagazin]

Great video Steve. It be really interesting to talk about if this is a new thing to stay even replacing wings or just a fad for a season or two?

[@KutsevSergey]

Is it fun to ride without waves? Just on a flat lake?

[@curio78]

The best is a rigid kite. Take 2 sticks tied like a bow and arrow and fabric. Its stable and light. You can make the central stick with carbon fiber and the bendy one out of sealed aluminium tube(to float). or both aluminium for a cheap solution.

[@BestKiteboardingOfficial]

Doesn't sliding the centre bridle group up and down the bar change the AOA? Allowing to trim for more upwind angle or grunt.

[@johnDEBOvis]

Bring back the waroo

[@johan-matthygreyling7366]

Interesting! In what sizes does it come, and is there a BRM website to go to? How much cheaper is it than an out of control cost of a wing?

[@CFL_Foiler]

Excellent review! Looks sick. How low of wind do you think you could use that 4m in? On a dw board and a wing 15-20 seems reasonable. Based on the sizing guidelines I am starting to get excited to try this

[@stevesurfs]

@@CFL_Foiler board and foil will have a dramatic impact on ideal range. With a sup/mid length probably mid teens for the 4.

[@fluiditynz]

Great review! I'm impatient to find out if they go main stream. I'd probably try with a tether initially untill I got a feel for it. Like many of us, I've wind surfed and kite surfed so the technology seems very simple and known to me, so surprise no one did it earlier!

[@markyboyclark]

🤔 what is this wizardry? Do I need one!?? 🤔

[@lewiss66]

You said it does'nt need long board like a downwind board to get going. I was thinking to get a mid length board like the skybrid duotone. Would you consider the size more like the 5'6 or the 5'8 to suit this parawing? 70kg rider. Thanks for your great video !

[@youhavequasp]

How about getting on foil in light winds when you may not have a wave to push you.. can you pump it like a wing?

[@KiteTurbine]

I presume it is ony the mid bridle which can slide up and down the bar? I imagine this affects the depthor position of camber in the wing/kite. Interesting to think that the depth of camber could also be increased by loosening a strap where the velcro loop is. So cool. Thanks for such a good review you look delighted

[@Team33Team33]

MAy sound obvious, but I'm amazed that you wouldn't have some kind of leash so as not to lose the wing every time you fall ! Imagine in strong winds or if there is a sudden gust and your wing just shoots away away down wind at the end of a hard day when you have no energy left to go get it because you've just spent the last hour battling upwind ... Also: and because of no leash; I'm surprised there is nothing to immediately deform the kite just like a kitefoil. i.e. render it powerless. But hey. Each and evrryone to his own.

[@jasemurphy977]

Is there like a wind range ? Or would the 6m be to hard to jangle in low wind

[@RhettBonner]

Great stuff Steve! Can't wait to try it!

[@bleeper808]

Great review! Did you get a chance to try the larger sizes? I'm wondering how bulky they might be and will it be an issue managing them.

[@stevesurfs]

@@bleeper808 I only rode the 2.9 and 4.0. There is a noticeable difference between the two sizes, but the canopy material is so thin and light it’s easy to collect and bunch up

[@gcammar]

damn, where's the parasite when he's needed!!!! would have loved to do that run with you guys... despite the fact that it was Kihei! Not worried though, it looks like there's going to be testing opportunities in the near future. cheers and thanks!

[@nextari]

How do you not worry about running up onto a big tiger shark and falling from your board into the water with a possibly angry shark?

[@deroux]

A longer bar in the leward side might be nice for control.

[@Destination360]

Great video Steve your hired! Or should be.. 10:15 shows me deploying pw wet and tangled. No problem 🤙🏼

[@davidketley5359]

What board and foil combination are you using?

[@stephenzoio1226]

Great review! Got a 2.9 coming my way :) I'm curious to know what the top end of that would be, and the bottom end of the 1.8. Did anyone get going on one of those?

[@stevejefferys6412]

Hi ! Great review thanks . A couple of questions though : "5 or 6 you not knowing what you are doing " as you quoted all received your parawings at the same time? , did you do a grouped order ? No offense meant you disclaimed but seems funny you all went out the same day together on brand new parawings ! Secondly , did any of you have your bridles tangled on the foil of a upside down board when crashing ? Can you see that as being a problem ? Cheers .

[@stevesurfs]

@@stevejefferys6412 we all got our wings the same day. Nobody got their wings tangled in the foil, if you have a big crash just let go and the parawing will fly 10-20 feet away well clear of the foil and board. Not impossible to tangle the foil but extremely difficult

[@chrispewkreme]

I could be wrong, but it seems like this released too early. The wing itself seems very unstable. The bridle moves. People are modifying the lines to be able to go upwind. Seems like they’re still in the development phase but for a first gen from BRM it seems promising.

[@worldtrav72]

Cant wait to learn this sport. Looks like a hoot!

[@johnsmalley4693]

Nice one, Steve. Looks fun!

[@Kleeblatt2304]

This night I came up with a revolutionary idea: I would work even better if we (a) made the lines longer - about 20 m or so and (b) give the canopy be giving it an inflatable leading edge like a wing. I still have to come up with a good name for my invention though.

[@AdamsHadEnough]

Nah sounds boring😂

[@itsmyjeepthing]

whaha i was having the same idea. make it inflatable and less lines that are longer

[@fredodofre]

You cannot really freefly with a kite. Even with the flysurfer hybrid which has the best drift on the market

[@grahamreed8443]

Same thing said about the wing 😂

[@rob8878]

Then I just need to figure out how to stow 20m of line and an inflatable leading edge kite, so I can downwind freely 🙃

[@richardpratt580]

Do you think it could be used with a mid length prone board for surfing ? Pull you in, rap up then surf?

[@stevesurfs]

@@richardpratt580 yep that’s my main goal for this winter. Spending the rest of the summer practicing the parawing skills DW, then when waves show up it’s on!

[@SpecialEditionArt]

A tip for more video views.... you are talking too much without showing what you are talking about....your face are beautiful but they are not the topic. Start with the visuals. You'll get more happy watchers and more views

[@mikesiddells3211]

Lot of haters on here !! 🙄 I look forward to hearing progress of all the home-made trainer kite conversions . Don’t forget to factor in the cost of your hourly rates folks $$$. Reckon optimising the bridle setup is gonna take many many hours….. Kudos to Greg for putting the work in and coming out with something that really moves the dial for those of us that want to sail upwind then ditch the power source and ride the energy DW. Pure freedom

[@rssupsurffoil]

Nice video. Where we buy it? Prices and size?

[@stevesurfs]

@@rssupsurffoil all the detailed product info and sales are on the BRM website

[@vim55k]

will it replace wing?

[@Axel-gn2ii]

Would this be a good idea instead of a regular wing for a total beginner? Where to buy it?

[@stevesurfs]

@@Axel-gn2ii yep, just a different discipline. A rider with minimal experience will just have a bit longer learning curve. You can buy the wings direct on the BRM website

[@Axel-gn2ii]

@@stevesurfs I am going to start in 8-15 knots, which size would you recommend? I have the Armstrong HS1550 v2 with HS212 and HS195, 72cm mast which I bought used. I'm going to spend 6 months in Thailand so I figured I'd buy good value gear right away. But I've never stood on a foil board before. I did a few kite lessons last year but I had been sick and was in terrible shape and that was with a regular board, no foil. Now I've been doing a ton of balancing exercises like doing 50 pullups every day on gymnastic rings in preparation. Also am buying an exercise balance board. It would be cool to have a piece of gear that I don't need to inflate. Edit: Also how long do you reckon it will last before breaking? I'm guessing it will hit the water a lot

[@stevesurfs]

@@Axel-gn2ii probably the 4m or 5m will be best

[@chrispewkreme]

⁠@@Axel-gn2iiidk if you already started, but 8-15 knots is pretty weak. You’ll probably be better off on the 5m and honestly maybe the 6. I have used a 100L with an Armstrong CF2400, HS1850, and an HA1125. As for the wing, the 6.5M was too easy ti get up and often overpowered in 15 knot conditions. The 5.5 got up with a few pumps and waiting and was only slightly overpowered with gusts. The 4.5 was really difficult to get up and almost impossible if the wind wasn’t hitting just right. You’ll often be waiting for a good gust. You won’t be overpowered but you are sometimes underpowered and have to pump the board and foil to stay up. I’m on O’ahu and have wind typically in the 10-15 knots and occasional 15-20. 20+ is very rare. I think the 4 maybe too small as a beginner. The 5 is probably solid.

[@buensomeritano1755]

Can it go upwind

[@till6032]

price?

[@kylemaligro]

Frick yeah Steve! Thanks for sharing. I can’t wait to give it a go. Downwinding with nothing in hand and riding waves on windy days with nothing in hand is the shiz! Game changing 🤙🏾 🪂

[@stevesurfs]

@@kylemaligro it’s so much fun stoked to see how it progresses through the winter

[@bryankl8364]

Insaaaane !! Can't wait to try !!!❤❤❤🎉🎉🎉

[@alexriddell8918]

I have a revolutionary idea. Its called an umbrella.

[@jessiebrader2926]

I like your idea, it could even have a small paddle on the end for when the wind dies......and only $15, win win.

[@flyingfootage]

Great review 👍🏄🏼‍♂️

[@inthefuns]

With a wing, it’s easy to spill the wind when overpowered. This (as I understand) does not have a way to trim the kite meaning very little wind range.

[@comment8767]

Good point... perhaps a 4m Flysurfer Soul with a kitebar would work...

[@KiteFoilFlyer]

It really looks nice and simple🎉

[@timcapp6515]

Thanks, great review 🤙

[@stveloop9452]

Anything that gets us away from overpriced aluulla wings and kites is very positive for the foiling sport.

[@Rich-73]

Don’t you think these parawings are already overprised?? They are double the price of the pocketwing also from Maui. @pocket_wing

[@stveloop9452]

@@Rich-73 I believe the idea will be duplicated and DIY designs forthcoming. The future is boards and foils and a rejection of brand exclusivity.

[@travisgladu3082]

I think it is way over priced. A training kite from ozone is just over 100 US. This looks like a training kite with short lines? Can anyone who kites tell me if it's any different than a trainer kite?

[@zipcheckcheck]

The leading edge of the BRM Parawing has small, rib-like batons to help open and allow air to fill inside the canopy. Trainer kites don't have this and take more time to fill.

[@CineSoar]

Yeah, this price point is right at the level of a paragliding kiting (practice) wing, which has ribs in the nose. That said, kiting wings like the Ozone Roadrunner are 14 meter, with a brake system, so I would expect the price to settle somewhere in between eventually. I am curious to see what might be possible DIY'ing a $30 parafoil stunt kite to have the same functionality. It would seem that someone moderately handy could add a bar and ribs, and still be under $50.

[@MatanShapira]

would it work with a 38L board?£

[@stevesurfs]

@@MatanShapira definitely, will take a little power and technique but my goal is to use this with my prone board in the waves

[@martinarrowsmith6463]

Price will come down eventually. Could be great for downwind because you can pack it away and you don’t need a paddle, however it has to get you upwind first.

[@Zerbabilon]

Looks awesome but the price is ridiculous. I’m going to try short strings on training kite. It’s practically the same thing for $55.

[@comment8767]

So did it work out?

[@Hotwire_RCTrix]

I'm sure I'm not the only person than has tried a ramair kite with a skateboard. It doesn't seem the best idea but who knows. So why not just repurpose a kite boarding kite?

[@pancakeflux]

Nice video with some beautiful scenery. I would’ve liked to see more starts, both successful and not.

[@robadair]

Super intriguing. I would replace the plastic waist buckle with a full strength aluminum buckle. Great review, thanks.

[@OCEANBOUND1]

awesome bud! got me stoked!! my 5.1m arrives Monday.

[@mikeoneill2615]

Interested to know why you chose the 5.1 when you seem to ride smaller wings than this?

[@OCEANBOUND1]

@@mikeoneill2615 a 5m is my usual go-to. I honestly have no idea how I’m gonna use this thing and the more videos I see, I feel like I may have gotten the wrong size but I’ll give it a try and I can always go smaller.

[@twidmer]

@@mikeoneill2615I ordered the 6.2. I never ride anything under 5.. So hope it works.

[@robp3431]

It's like "What will they think of next ?"

[@MonbogDecan]

Great innovation but too expensive for a trainer Kite with a vertical bar

[@klaarnou]

So basically it has all the downsides of a kite and of a wing with zero upside. Sounds like a fantastic idea.

[@michaelbarker742]

Why not just leash the wing to the harness? No worries about it coming out of the pouch.

[@majika007]

Just a blade with a b and c lines paired +1k tres cher

[@Rafabi78]

for me, the price is abosuletely ridiculous, 1.500 € +- a 5m shiped to Spain....seems incredible, but i think today is too expensive

[@dawntreader7079]

my wings are all way faster than my new brm para wing, no matter what foil or board i'm on. it's super fun and has it's place, but unless the title of the video is just clickbait, the answer to the question is no. Wing foiling is fast and heads upwind better.

[@veskupaananen]

BTW Which sizes you've been riding?

[@cjam3660]

it's what iv always a kitter should acteueally have...just seems more realestic...id love to try it as if I were kitting...your on the water and so is the parading. your on the water reading the wind on the water and your Para wing is right there in the same spot...your not guessing on wind that your can't read that's 39 feet above your head yea Para wing...defentally

[@KitesMethodEC]

Modern Foiling History…next year the kite will be inside the paddle shaft with the GoPro

[@Jonesyutube]

In the waves it’s going to be awesome !😂😂😂😂😮cant think of anything worse….will feel like a fish trapped in a net …until,I drown 😮

[@cameaston5632]

Nice 👍 looks great

[@BellaProductions]

I wish people(manufacturers)would call these things what they are. Kite or sail. Not all these silly names. It makes my eyes roll. I have a trainer kite will try to make one of these

[@jahelation8658]

The natural progression after this is to reinvent kite surfing again 🤣

[@3asylife]

Thx a lote for this review, as europs largest KZbinr for Wingfoil and Kitespots i will check it out. Greez from Germany Eike 3asylife

[@JeffreyObrien-m7w]

Jaylin Burgs

[@timking4094]

It's a a two line trainer kite with lines stripped off. Why is this a new discipline? I taught my kids to fly a kite this way by attaching the bridle directly to the bar. Just something else to sell..

[@veskupaananen]

I think, it is not the same. IMHO. It is an evolution from that and like said earlier: you don't have to fly it like a kite. Interesting to see how these evolve over the time. But I don't have one in my hand, so I can be wrong, but watching the video and the setup, I would say that it is a step forward, because the design goals have been different.

[@Matx5901]

You're right, but it's not happening the way you think: it's a return to kite from an extraordinary designer... who knows nothing about kite. His BRM Cloud sail, which is already a few years old, has a very agile and extremely fun flight, which looks exactly like 4-line kite flying (my love), but as a three-line and above all while being towed on water... I was stunned, go and see the videos, they're a treat. I was able to talk to him about this, and he was amazed at what I was telling him. He didn't even know what a Quad Kite Revolution was, the classic of all acrobatic quads kites since the 1990’s. In fact, with the Maliko, this genius has reinvented the NASA Wing. This single-skin canopy is decades old, and comes from Rogallo's experiments to make re-entry parachutes for the space shuttle. Rogallo, the same man who designed the wing that gave birth to the deltaplane. The NW is a public domain sail that kite flyers have appropriated for two- and then four-line flying, where it excels. They use it for buggies and other traction-related activities. I use it in small sizes for pure fun acrobatics, I really like this sail. It's agile and powerful, stable and easy to relaunch. We like it because we can put several of them in a rucksack. It took the genius of kitesurfing and its ingenious variations on foil to bring the old essentialist NW formula back to zero. I'm particularly touched by this designer, because he's found exactly what I like in quad line kite: fun, not the academicism that's been devouring acrobatic kite for the last 20-30 years. But he found it in the traction, and that's what changes everything. I'm sure one can replace a Maliko with a NW quad very easily, with no adjustments, just the boom. Which may give once again the same impression as you: he hasn't invented anything. But that's not true, reinventing is inventing, and I'm certain that the Maliko performs much better than NW (in terms of speed and ascent, it's not hard). I can see at a glance in his Maliko some little flaws I know very well: I've flown hundreds of hours with NWs of all sizes, from 0.5 (in storms!) to 4 m² (in a breeze), my favorites, and beyond that up to 11m². It's important to understand how difficult it is to develop a single-skin sail without stiffness, just lines. The NW has perhaps only been surpassed once in kite (I never tried), quite recently. He will correct its shortcomings little by little. Others will copy him. This amazing story of introducing pure fun in sailing is just beginning.

[@kalevful]

anyone done a comparison between this and the pocket wing?

[@veskupaananen]

@@Matx5901 I agree with you. It is partly reinventing and inventing. He invented a very good use case - at least for foilers. I haven't seen people using NW with foils, but with foils you have a design goal that is rather new. The DW or many other "proper" foils and boards have existed a pretty short time. The sport is new. When I see "intermediate" wingfoilers around the world, every one of us is trying to glide on not-so-perfect waves. My "waves" here in Finland would be like a joke for you guys in Maui. :) I think that the current wings are not very good for that with a poor flagging, weight etc. and you have to pump them and they take space etc. etc. This new approach to have a "foil kite"/NW and be able to just throw it and ride it - it is genius. IMHO. And a clear target for a product designers around the world that will be copied for sure. He put it so well at the end of the design video "the greatest part of riding with Parawing become not riding with it at all." I can't wait to see the next iterations of the "wing", bridles and a boom. boardridingmaui.com/pages/parawing (video at the bottom of the page).

[@Matx5901]

@@kalevful You made me discover the Pocket Wing, it is very interesting, it's the same concept and it flies really well. Indeed, it's worth comparing. First of all, PW is a quad line, and the pilot is always on the brakes. These are preferences that are not necessarily optimal in terms of comfort and versatility, but interesting for fine piloting, which matters a lot in sail near water and waves. It's fairly easy to change for a true comparison, but I think this will put the PW at a disadvantage due to the sail design not being sufficiently detached from the parachute concept it comes from. The PW creates a huge pocket, which is prohibitive for upwind performance. The Maliko is much better in this regard, but still retains a small inward curve of the trailing edge that still creates a little pocket. Interestingly the Nasa Wing trailing edge is flat. The leading edge of the Maliko is tucked in and reinforced by internal panels, like that of the NW, but the Maliko extends this across the entire width, which is much better. Creating a perfect single-skin sail is the hardest challenge. The ergonomic ideal clearly favors a self-inflating, self-stable sail without stalling when accelerating sharply. The performance ideal follows directly from this: speed and upwind ability. The aesthetic ideal, that is, the control of folding at the edges and extremities, is not truly achieved by any of the three sails. The Maliko is visibly very close to the first two ideals and not too bad at the third. It still has room for improvement in terms of design finesse, now depending only on systematic trial and error engineering. If the sail meets the expected success, its designer will find himself in a race with the heavyweights of kite sails design who will jump into the field. They have the available talents and resources. This is how Manu Bertin was beaten in kitesurfing, and we saw exceptional sails appear.

[@jpcjpc69]

11:25

[@WyattBennett-f8c]

4704 Towne Ports

[@chadkeener2827]

This looks ridiculous… but so did winging… and now im addicted… fine I’ll hear him out lol

[@Stanton_High]

man, you are living the dream. if you need a roomie hmu

[@spaRTan3246]

I still can‘t figure out whether this vid is a meme or serious… ☺️

[@NicholsMiles-q4w]

Volkman Summit

[@hisurf4688]

Hope Armstrong makes these…..

[@simonpriest4345]

You lost me with “how to untangle”. The simplicity of a wing is its selling point for me.

[@manvbees]

Yeah the thing that makes me want to do wingfoiling instead of kite foiling is not having to detangle lines or risk getting wrapped in them if I fall....what's the difference between this and say having a sports umbrella (that could also fold away) 😅

[@Trodelphin]

yeah 5 mins sitting out in ocean untangling is plenty of time to drift into danger

[@StefomRyan]

Lopez Thomas Moore Steven Perez Robert

[@StefomRyan]

Martinez Barbara Hall Anna Gonzalez Sarah

[@BrendaStephens-v8g]

Garcia Ronald Martinez Timothy Garcia Deborah