Is this stronger than your fingers?

I get asked all the time to break test climbing holds. This is the gateway gear into do that. 3D printing is interesting. These were stronger than you are.
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[@HowNOT2]

Follow Zach at instagram.com/specializedmasochism/ Get Natural Grip Block at hownot2.com/products/grip-block

[@legion162]

I was really looking forward to seeing fingers on the pull machine to see what sort of level before fingers are ripped off

[@zacharylaschober]

we didn't want to damage his hydraulics

[@legion162]

​@@zacharylaschober 😂😂

[@Pseudoswede]

@@zacharylaschoberhe’s got a rated 2:1 for it. It’s pulled 80kN+ before

[@zacharylaschober]

@@Pseudoswede I really thought I had a chance, but that is a few pounds over my max.

[@acy48]

Don't increase infill when trying to improve pull strength. Increasing the number of perimeters yields a lot more strength per weight and print time. There are lots of break tests that show this, for example "INFILL pattern and SHELLS ..." from CNC KItchen here on youtube. Its hard to tell but it looks like you are using two Perimeters. Even for non structural parts that is the absolute minimum. I would recommend using at least 3, for something structural even 4 or 5 perimeters. Use just enough infill to make sure the file prints correctly.

[@SnakebitSTI]

I think he's using adaptive infill? Text on the video says 75% fill near walls, 15% in the middle.

[@zacharylaschober]

when I get a gap in my printing, will check some other modifications. Not terribly worried about the strength after a certain amount of repeated testing and maximal testing, and the additional infill is predominantly support for the cord compressing the device rather than strength of the edge, but was an easy change to just see.

[@NoWay-zt1dc]

​@zacharylaschober Yea since its strong enough, there is not really a need to change it. Two perimeters still _feels_ wrong:D I often get visible gaps in my prints when I go down to two.

[@elonquemattheson6151]

The 100% filled block that you used in the first test broke because there was a sharp edge connecting the base to the "fingers". If you instead filleted that transition and made it the perfect inverse of the grip block, you'd get full strength.

[@zacharylaschober]

yup, was always going to be limited by the adhesion of those layers.

[@elonquemattheson6151]

@@zacharylaschober It's not layer adhesion. It's a stress concentration from a sharp 90 degree corner.

[@zacharylaschober]

⁠@@elonquemattheson6151you're right, I think I meant "reliant on" rather than limited by, adding atop your mention of the stress point.

[@twanlange2827]

Also, I would have printed it at a 45-degree angle, but hindsight is 20-20

[@DreIsGoneFission]

I’m an engineer who did significant research in the space of 3D printed material strength. I also have a unique process of using 3D printed molds to cast parts out of much stronger materials. I would recommend this process for making these kinds of tools.

[@CarterSchonwald]

Or if these are abs / asa, at least paint the material with acetone to help fuse across layer lines and be a tad stronger

[@CarterSchonwald]

But totes agree casting is the way to go, polyurethane would be indestructible

[@Ataraxia_Atom]

100% these would be so much stronger molded. And you could make more faster

[@CarterSchonwald]

But mold making is probably less popular on KZbin than fdm :)

[@Im1Thing2Do]

Doesn’t injections molding only really justify itself economically after like 5.000 parts? I’m not sure if this is enough of a mainstream product to justify that cost

[@andyseverance1519]

Zach taught me so much when I first started climbing. Such a great climbing mentor. It's great seeing him get some recognition for his hard work.

[@zacharylaschober]

Miss you and Ash and Zayn! Need to head out to the New soon with you all.

[@MakeItWithCalvin]

As someone who does 3D printing, this is EPIC. It would be interesting to see this being applied to custom hand-holds for a climbing wall, pending it's safe!

[@zacharylaschober]

I have some holds for my home wall, and I think certain shapes work, but the forced are often too erratic in a commercial setting to trust.

[@sikesmichael]

Hey Ryan, I would love to see break tests on the Pitch Six and Tindeq dynamometers. They seem like a handy training tool for home but as always I'm concerned with safety and accuracy. Thanks!

[@zacharylaschober]

Can tell you the Pitch Six Force Board 450 is supposed to be rated (based on discussions with Pitch Six) for 900kg to still return to properly read and 1800kg before potentially breaking. I have done 991lbs and it didn't care, unlike both a Tindeq 150 and 300 which I have ruined.

[@felipenavas]

You should crank the walls not the infill and that filament with matte finish looks that a have low layer adhesion. It's time to watch some CNCKitchen videos.

[@joeljohnson7420]

I have been using a 3d printed hang board for a couple months now and it works great. Easy and cheap if you already are into 3d printing(or if you have a friend that is). I think mine is printed at 15% or 20% infill and it's super good enough.

[@Im1Thing2Do]

Do you have a link to the files for the hang board? I’ve been looking for a good one for quite a while now.

[@johncorring]

Kudos to Zach! It's the best finger lifting device on the market IMO. Comfortable light durable. Fun video!

[@jasoncapenecas5475]

I wish that you had referenced Tyler Nelson from C4HP regarding this methodology and theory as he is the one from my understanding that pioneered this shift to un-level grips. Also as some feedback on that particular device your showing. It seems to be one of the more incontinent in its category to use as it seems that you have to un clip the carabiner and switch the cord to the other time every time you want to switch the left and right hand unless I'm mistaken. Most other devices already out there overcome this with much simpler and user friendly way.

[@zacharylaschober]

Tyler and I chat often enough, and I reference him often enough. This is not the same ridiculous antics of another company claiming to have invented the whole notion. This was break tests with some training ideas. As to the cord, while these edges all feature even index and ring fingers and could, I make a variety of form factors which do not. The reason I keep with this is the balance is simply better, as I have done iterations in this manner.

[@markstewart9362]

Yes the video I was waiting for!

[@FingersofFuryClimbing]

Shout out to Zach for getting some of these training concepts out there to the more general climbing community with these videos! I'm still down for a video with aluminum climbing holds if you guys ever want to do a comparison!

[@Axemanvan]

Can you pull test me 3d printed Glock? Need to know if it’s a safe piece to place

[@762xDevin]

Printer go brrrrrrr

[@lucaslothbrook5388]

We love youtube! None of these are a real guns. -PSR

[@lucaslothbrook5388]

Bruh print the Glong! Best glock ever

[@TijmenHatesads]

Cool video! I have a similar design that I'm pretty sure is a bit stronger, but the difference in print settings and filament could also account for that. What I've noticed is that way before breaking, the tools I made to approximate a hand pushed deep dents into the contact surface, and failure starts from those cracks. I still want to try the same pull with a soft layer in between to stimulate how flesh squishes but at the same forces it also dented the wood on another version and Ive never heard of anyone doing that by hand. For me the weak link is the strap, with a WLL of 250kg (safety factor is probably 5, but I can't test those numbers).

[@zacharylaschober]

@@TijmenHatesads yeah, the beauty of this is since the item doesn't have to hit a specific measurement size or weight wise, a few parameters may change if we wanted a little more strength out of it. I think this test still disadvantages the device... but it is way past what anyone will stress this to. Softer, pliable pads, especially as there is a slight chamfer on the bottom of the edge, distributing across the entire wall would be of interest.

[@buckskin88]

The ductile failure aspect of these is a wonderful idea!

[@ethanrae7489]

Love it. A couple weeks ago I designed an MXEdge Lift finger trainer clone and released it on printables under the name 3DEdge Lift. I look forward to trying this design.

[@Rozbujnik_Rumcajs]

That infill is just wasted material and print time. Up walls to at least 4 and then you will see how strong can be thing squirted from 3d printer.

[@gravyblue]

I've got a solid granite edge that has transformed my training

[@caleblaws7722]

Another thought about strength, generally a shear force parallel to the 3d printed layer lines is often considered the weakest direction to pull a print. It would be interesting to see the same model printed 90° to make it extra good enough.

[@zacharylaschober]

@@caleblaws7722 yup, was a quick (design wise) effort, I thought this would be more violent after a few tests. Thought it was funny to test the material against itself

[@WillN2Go1]

Cool. I love the >200 iterations. (I've learned that it's all fun, but the really amazing fresh stuff starts happening with multiple iterations!) Amazing design. (The finger shape would also make a better handle. Can you make these for luggage? Incorporate it into sailing gloves? ) After the fingers being different lengths explanation I was looking at those slits on the side. They're for a rope to hang the device, but as a DIYer it got me thinking. If you just put a screw and a washer, even a big washer on something relatively soft like that... it would work, but it would just be a compromise. What's needed (maybe not for this device, or even climbing gear, but generally) is to do the 'finger matching' and force distribution with hard metal screws and some load spreading widget to make it easier and more secure to attach something like this (3D printed) to a surface. (Then the 3D designs could incorporate that widget's shape into the printing.) I'll give up my chance at fame... just start drawing the vectors. It'll design itself. Excellent point about the big R D ring. At some point focusing a load is a knife edge.

[@zacharylaschober]

@@WillN2Go1 Yeah, I used to number the iteration files and then when I expanded form factors for the current versions it just wasn't of use, especially as I make and test more things than this. I restrained myself after this to not try and "improve" the design until I greatly expand feedback from long term usage. Genuinely believe it is the best of it's type on the market, and any improvements will be for morphology and increased options.

[@LynxSnowCat]

Thank you for plainly stating that shockloading increases the risk [degree] of injury, and that human joints aren't designed to open under load. When my cataplexy (sporadic decrease of muscle tone/control) is acting up my family is always harassing me not to avoid the snapping/erratic-pulling motions they don't have trouble with, when I have always found that particularly injurious (even after having how I've been re-setting my wrists since childhood corrected by a doctor) while any muscular reaction to prevent even an anticipated jolt from crashing across my joints is inhibited/convoluted by my health. So having an expert they won't argue with (on video) say it in a context they are interested in will be helpful, (though I won't be too surprised if a few months from now I am pointing at this comment after saying *"Meow, really."* ) Also; I've been offered a variation on the hand-grip-block that used sliding paddles to adjust for different finger lengths (for 'free' because of a predictable tendency to pinch fingers when it flexed). Your selection of appropriate preset-sizes in _a single piece_ sounds like a much better solution- Though I'm now wondering if something similar for foot-grip exists.

[@NPC-fl3gq]

Any archer who uses high poundage bows can tell you all about this 😂

[@VALERYAN581]

you tested constrictor hitch knot ? And “BUNNY EARS” -Double Loop Figure 8 Knot what happens to the knot if one ear breaks, many say when you make the knot and put the adjustment loop down the knot comes undone and if you put it up the knot doesn't come undone,I hope you understand what I mean

[@MartinKrafft]

The rock doesn't care what we want, our hands have to adapt to it.

[@NPC-fl3gq]

*laughs in rock*

[@zacharylaschober]

yup, which is why adaptation off the wall shouldn't focus on grip positions but on exposure to force

[@Alastair510]

Office workers could train using this, doing 30s-1m lifts with a dumbell next to their chair.

[@greeboart]

The office worker could use a longer sling, no weight, and pull against their foot, thus creating unlimited weight.

[@jmstewart88]

not related to finger boards, have you done any pull tests on the Italian 8 in single an double? asking in the context on canyoning,

[@TheMegaMrMe]

any studies that show this is better for training compared to a straight edge?

[@zacharylaschober]

Interestingly, we don't even have good studies on much for finger training in climbing. Most studies on training protocols in climbers are making multiple assumptions. We know enough from sports/exercise science to say isometrics in positions of best leverage are best for "strength" adaptations, and with the anatomy of the hand we want all four fingers to be in similar positions cause the structures are largely common across the fingers. The benefit of a flat edge is I could cobble one together from scraps in my garage, and if I am trying to work the least and climb the most then simple and cheap is great. If I want to pay someone for a product, ease of design and manufacture are not selling points (especially when many flat edges are more expensive and break lower).

[@patricksawesomeprobarly3331]

Attached to my product placement… lol

[@PotatoSmasher4242]

I knew I should have worn eye protection is not a phrase you ever want to have said

[@ShurikB93]

Is ot possible to pay for the design and 3D print myself?

[@elephantfan1958]

1:43 what are silly fingers?

[@leveller4]

What is the benefit of training for finger strength over endurance? If you wanted to train for endurance, how would you adjust the regimen?

[@zacharylaschober]

Didn't see this question before, but endurance is an extremely broad category for climbers. Many athletes I work with (the majority of my athletes are sport climbers or transitioning to sport climbing) express a need for greater endurance when what they need is better economy of movement, execution of sequence, and exploiting of rest stances. One important note is strength will increase endurance as each movement will require a lower percentage of maximal force which has several small side effects. As to endurance adaptations themselves, think about what you mean by this in simple terms and how this appears on the wall. If what you want to do is avoid being pumped as much, then do a longer set with an intensity which allows you to stave off being pumped. If what you want to do is handle being pumped better, then do a long set with an intensity which allows you to be pumped for longer and become more pumped overall. These target two main groups of adaptations, aerobic (the former) and anaerobic (the latter) capacity. We always want to focus on quality of training, thus more time spent below the threshold of being pumped or more time spent being pumped. When a majority of your set feels nonstimulating, increase the intensity.

[@leveller4]

@@zacharylaschober thanks for the thorough response!

[@VeganHippy70]

make them injection molded.

[@niceguy191]

I think I'd use the 3D print to make a gang mould and cast these if making any significant quantity.

[@zacharylaschober]

While this was a consideration, I make units with far more options, enough to need to be made to order. I actually went into the printing side for an attempt to make custom jigs and iterate some designs... but turned out to be more than strong enough.

[@niceguy191]

@@zacharylaschober Oh yeah, not for strength, but to be able to produce larger batches since you mention it's a couple of hours per piece to print. Could still print the more customized ones, but for the HN2 store's limited selection printing could be a big bottleneck (assuming there's lots of orders after this video). I don't even climb really and I think this thing is pretty neat, so great job on the design.

[@coreytaggart128]

Be very careful doing this with adjustable dumbbells like demonstrated, if it slips and drops many of the dumbbells are not know for taking falls well and can break or damage the adjustable function of them.

[@zacharylaschober]

@@coreytaggart128 not a fan of dumbbells for this purpose all the same, but good point I completely missed. I hadn't brought a loading pin and plates cause we discussed this a little on the site in better context.

[@squidguy7907]

Is he selling the files for these? I’d love to print some myself

[@LucasGranberg]

Could this be printed so it fits both hands without flipping it? It looks symmetrical around the middle finger but there would need to be two spots for the pinky

[@some10is4me]

The first 3D printed edge like this sold, MetacarpEdge unlevel edge, has this style

[@zacharylaschober]

This can, but I sell a variety of form factors which could not be flipped due to varying index and ring edge heights. Thus, keep with the design, and head2toe already does this, and we stay friendly in this field. However, this helps keep the balance point more between ring and middle than middle and index due to cord placement.

[@bobbystorc]

Love the mismatched socks! HowNOT2SOCKS

[@feluver]

Already sold out!

[@zacharylaschober]

restocked! printing more

[@user-kc1qq8vr7i]

Если вдруг какой-то гений сделает 3д модель для печати, скиньте ссылку)))))

[@sportenapfeltorten2095]

But dont the holds we pull on usually ARE a straight edge, and not ergonomic? My intuition would say train how you use the muscles.

[@Rockhug]

I have the same thought, its the principe of specificity at least for the muscle. In theory this means that full range of motion or finger curling is one of the best way to develop strenght in the fore arm, because you don't neglect the full range of motion. But we got weird mechanic ligament in our finger and we dont know a lot about the optimise way to train them and they are often the weak link for climber. Were we got hurt when we try hard xD. What we maybe know, but are in reality educated assumption : - Training full range of motion with finger curl may increase risk of getting hurt, because of the mechanic of our ligament in our finger (so maybe not the best way to get the ligament stronger); - Ligament tend to get strong under isometric hold and high tension/intensity, making the first a good training if your high level climber with super good enough ligament, but shitty for most people. What we dont know : - Does ligament follow the principe of specificity, if its not the case, anything puting pressure on them hard should be an better way to train. The problem, hand position affect on which ligament the pressure is on.

[@theowainwright7406]

Training how you use the muscles would require an infinite amount of edges as no hold is ever the same. This is to train raw strength

[@theowainwright7406]

If you only trained straight edges and came across a pinky focused hold you would be wanting this. Straight edges don’t train your pinkies hardly at all

[@Rockhug]

@@theowainwright7406 Like I said, we need to understand that we dont know much about ligament and for many people, thats the weak point, where we got hurt. Developing force to applied on specific hold is mostly neural adaptation and those adaptation goes really fast if you project something. If you board train, you will do the strength transition between your fingertraining and force applied to a specific hold. So the question is for me, is this new hangblock a gimmick or will it show in time better strenght gain for intermediary and beginner at climbing than a straightedge. My hypothesis, it will be the same.

[@zacharylaschober]

we were just answering some quick questions Ryan had in this, but no. Specificity is about adaptation, not about resemblance, and with this we expose the fingers to highest force production via flexion through the three main joints, then learn how to contact, control, and move around holds on the wall. Besides, few edges on the wall are this consistent orientation, depth, and roundover, thus still does not make sense to just use a flat edge.

[@TimberTrainer]

Nope, you're weird. My hand is correct.

[@djoxinside]

Infill 75% is the minimum for this usage, and I will do it with carbon filament to be sure it will be durable, not basic PLA or ABS.

[@JGnLAU8OAWF6]

PLA is plenty strong and durable for a chunky part like that.

[@zacharylaschober]

@@djoxinside I still have a varied amount of filaments I intended to test with after shaping, but even the base pla turned out to be strong enough. I switched to some slightly different architecture and infill patterns with a cf supported pla but this was mostly a concern for consistency of texture than actual durability.

[@nelsonianb1289]

Yea but rocks dont look like that, rocks are flat

[@izdotcarter]

Lead climbing is dumb