Is this why shooting feels off in CS2?

[@MrMaxim]

Valve addressed this in todays update!

[@TheDanishBully]

so when are you gonna update your video?

[@willn4129]

watched, this honestly feels very accurate to my experience where something feel off about shoot but the hit reg is great

[@ChrisBrown-ir6sf]

Average PRO players reaction time is 200 ms. The 128 had a 7ms delay, So it was 30 times faster than your reaction time and you prolly missed 1 kill out of hundreds cause of 128 tick, Now subtick will make sure you kill 1 more guy in 100 duels but with the cost of unsatisfying gunplay and horrible spray, L or W ?

[@Mafiota10]

@@ChrisBrown-ir6sf L because you would feel that constantly something is off but if they fixed that issue it would be 2xW

[@ChrisBrown-ir6sf]

@@Mafiota10 Yes if they make animation tickless like Shooting, Without it Its a meh game. Nothing can change my opinion, it's a fundamental flaw which can't be played for years.

[@peevan]

@@ChrisBrown-ir6sf Definitely an L, inconsistency and visual delay is one of the first things you should avoid when creating a competitive esports title. the most important parts of a shooter like CS is the split second decision making and mechanics you have to do in a gunfight. If there is visual delay, clutter, input lag, and inconsistency it jeopardizes the integrity of the competitive aspect of the game.

[@emilg2075]

​@@ChrisBrown-ir6sf Where did you get the idea that the average pro player's reaction time is 90ms? It's extremely wrong

[@bloo7570]

The absolute dedication of CS players to examine stuff like this that we all notice and break it down to make it explainable for us and fixable for Valve will never cease to amaze me. It really makes me super hopeful for the final product of CS2. Watched. Edit: Can you guys please stop arguing about Valorant in the replies? We get it, it took a lot from CS. But it has nothing to do with this comment or video. If you've nothing nice or constructive to say about it, let it be. We don't need to bring it up all the time to prove that we are "better'. Because if anything, it achieves the opposite for us.

[@DonnyZaZa]

cs & melee autists have done more for society than entire govts

[@orangepie2128]

Least schizophrenic cs player😂

[@ditz3nfitness]

CS PLAYER > VALORANT PLAYERS

[@Pixote420]

totally agree! Great Video @MrMaxim!

[@budgetking2591]

Videogame players < Real life players@@ditz3nfitness

[@Summanis]

Watched. This would explain why people say sprays feel off. Your spot in the spray would be slightly ahead of where you see yourself in the animation/when you think you started shooting. Sub-tick seems pretty awesome so far and I wouldn't be surprised to see it become a new gaming norm. CS has one of the most nit-picky communities around. It's good that sub-tick is starting here because we'll probably find most every bug and quirk of it before years end.

[@joostfloot5279]

That would make so much sense! I've such a difficult time spraying, looking forward to the fix that's most definitely gonna come eventually.

[@tehjamerz]

​@@joostfloot5279the fix is removing subtick

[@MrFlejon]

I think it's all placebo effect. The spray has slightly more spread, but overall, the shooting doesn't feel weird. It maybe felt weird if you had 4k hours but for everyone else, it felt less weird than csgo. Idk why people pretend that csgo was some golden standard. I started playing a year ago so I don't have a strong bias towards it. And csgo felt like dogs hit for the first 500hours. I think what is happening is cs player are exposed to a real engine for the first time and are thrown off by how much better it is. I have a friend that is godlike at generic fps like cod or battlefield. He kinda sucked at cs because of all the weird mechanics. Played cs2 and got ranked 12k because all his shot would connect. Csgo mechanics were actually crap

[@Dozla78XD]

@@MrFlejon Both shooters you mentioned have aim assist and have completely different mechanics to csgo. It's like saying that a f1 driver is going to be good at driving a truck. He's hitting shoots in cs2 becasue they made weapons a lot more acurate while running,. Which IMO is just a stupid change that's probably going away in a couple months after release when they start loosing more veteran players from it than noobies are coming

[@710bren]

@@MrFlejon how do you say so much but nothing at the same time

[@iNSAN1TYCS]

i think a good fix for this issue would be to change the firing animations from being server sided to being client sided instead, it would make more sense and wouldnt cause the issue of it being out of sync because since firing would be client sided it doesnt rely on a tick, it just relies on input from your mouse

[@АлександрНеделькин-е8щ]

That's exactly my first thought

[@tylermartin6516]

The potential issue with this is then you get worse hit reg feeling when you die first as for you it will still shoot. Its the same non-zero ping issue as other games and quite normal. would be an improvement. No reg is better than an out of sync clientside

[@jimleoromines8114]

if that's the case, there's gonna be scenarios when you shot your awp first but then you still die

[@iNSAN1TYCS]

@@tylermartin6516 i get your point, but the thing is since subtick remembers if you actually hit somebody, if you click and you’re on somebody, it shouldn’t be an issue with desync and etc, there might be a few scenarios where that issue happens but i think very few

[@Luper1billion]

In fighting games theyre starting to standardize rollback netcode where people are willing to experience the occasional millisecond fakeout if it means their buttons are registering

[@MrMaxim]

Just wanna make this clear again - Take this information with a grain of salt. There's always room for more clarity and maybe even some corrections down the line. None of this is confirmed by Valve. However, CS2's sub tick mechanics are proven to work already so that's good news in itself.

[@Youskarumbo]

Watched: I want to thank you for another great video. The most consistent cs content creator out there. keep it going bro love 💪🏽

[@DryestViper]

Watched but this doesnt explain why when you are spraying your gun even against static targets the spray vanishes

[@ChrisBrown-ir6sf]

Worked to make CS feels like an android shooter.

[@Sujay95]

​@@ChrisBrown-ir6sfoh look! another wannabe know-it-all moaner

[@ICECOLD_SEAL]

Watched! Alla dina videos såklart ;) Detta är så J*VLA bra förklaring och om dem löser problemet är det ju nice! Om dem fixar så att skottet avfyras tidigare så blir det jobbigt, och vad händer om 2 spelare skjuter på EXAKT samma tic, och registreras på nästa, vem dör? :O

[@KingKong-mp6gj]

This would explain many oddities about shooting like the sprays not connecting even they are the same as in go or not getting kills because you stopped shooting after the right amount of shots but actually shot one bullet short of a kill. I suspect this is not only tied to visuals but audio cues too. You often don't hear defuse or plant sounds in cs2 but other players do. Could also may be be a sync problem between tick and subtick.

[@rubenbernal7933]

Yeah I want to know why spraying feels like shit too

[@MGNikram]

This is what i feel when play cs2. I knew something were off but cant describe more better then your video. TQ

[@ChrisBrown-ir6sf]

Subtick is an epic fail. I will always choose 15ms/7ms latency delay in shots than this horrible feeling shooting which feels like phone game

[@thing4826]

I'd rather the shot always registers and the visual is what doesn't rather than both the shot and the visuals being behind.@@ChrisBrown-ir6sf

[@ChrisBrown-ir6sf]

@@thing4826 Not to mention neither subtick will be instant cause you forgetting your ping. So if you get 20 ping in subtick you will get exact 20 ping but 20+extra 7ms ping in 128tick + crisp gunplay. Take one. Do extra 7 makes any difference?

[@Wavpro]

@@ChrisBrown-ir6sf didn't you watch the video? Clearly it does make a massive difference.

[@ChrisBrown-ir6sf]

@@Wavpro he made it for slow motion ? You play in slow motion ? Show me 1 clip where your bullet missed cause of 128 tick ? even for PROS standard its 9.9/10

[@atre7940]

For some reason this serverside presicion only seems to apply to onetaps, pistols/deagle that seem really op in cs2. At the same time u can spray at someone almost point blank and get 2 hits out of 10 bullets, Sometimes server decides to be precise other times exactly the opposite. Hope they figure it out before the official release.

[@demetriy__7222]

Well, about that...

[@Ashen75]

Watched. Subtick really made the game far more precise from a technical standpoint, but it's gonna be hard for all of these visual discrepancies resulting from some things being subtick and some things being tickrate-tied to be resolved.

[@tehjamerz]

Precise??? 1.6 is more precise

[@digojez]

@@tehjamerz elaborate further

[@TallGermanGuy]

@@digojezthey can't, they got their opinion from twitter

[@erisium6988]

they just should make animation a local thing not server dependent so there is no problem with delay. There is no point to make visuals on ur pc and not on server.

[@SuperJoF]

@@digojez we all know he can't. 🤣

[@faite]

watched, this actually makes a lot of sense as to why pistols feel inconsistent and smgs feel more consistent - slower firerate guns will make this effect more noticable, whereas higher firerate guns can almost mask the fact there's a slight disconnect

[@oleksandrmarkovichenko5774]

Emmm... Like opposite. In terms of pistols - you will not see any difference in animation behavior between cs2 and csgo. The only difference is that in cs2 the shots will be calculated more precise, and "if you aim at the enemy on your screen" - it will count as a hit. But with high rate firearms, when you spray - what you see on the screen is not what actually have been shot, because animation and calculation are desynched is cs2 (which wasn't the case in csgo)

[@aaron-ps7ht]

Im confused as to why the shooting animation would be tied to the tick rate in the 1st place. Only thing I can imagine is that as the server still only updates the game state every tick that they want to make sure that a firing animation is only played if you actually had a chance to shoot (aka make sure you weren't dead on another players screen)

[@solitary200]

Animation state is associated with an entity in a snapshot.

[@rogerelzenga4465]

because that's how games work....

[@aaron-ps7ht]

@@rogerelzenga4465 yea ngl I hadn't thought it through properly. The longer I think about it the harder it seems to integrate, without a tick system. In my defense I just woke up😅.

[@m.n.s.s2825]

Valve could very well make CS2 a 64 tick like CSGO and it would still make less noise compared to their subtick is making now. The game feels off, The spray is off. For the cost of what ? I never seen any pros even asked for that fancy tickless shooting. They prolly did it to make it sound amazing and revolutionary to get all the praise but surely its now backfiring.

[@solitary200]

@@m.n.s.s2825 just need to tune it

[@michaelplaczek9385]

It’s an easy fix from Valve, they already have a method to find when you shot via the sub tick system. They just now have to change the animation to play when that happens

[@CaelSalad]

Great video! If this is truly the case of why it feels different, I am at least glad that if I click a head it will hit

[@MrMaxim]

Haha, good point.

[@Skyliner_369]

I think, hilariously, the simplest answer would be, well, to have the client side firing animation be, well, instant. Sure, your team mates will see your firing tick synced, but you yourself will have the muzzle flash and visuals the frame you click, improving the feel of the firing response. after all, the firing animation is there to help you really 'feel' how the gun acts. this might even help with non-tick-synced fire rates.

[@hkiajtaqks5253]

Sometimes the player dies after I stop firing and turn around. The lag is very noticeable sometimes. It is too out of whack.

[@TolisKarapPlanB]

Thanks for all the guidance Maximuh! Well, CS 2 still has a long way to go, but all this is so promising. We hope for the best 🙏

[@alex.104]

Lil bro didn't watch the video

[@instantpartyWTF]

This video perfectly explains what we've all been experiencing without knowing what was happening, this makes perfect sense

[@proshot7152]

this is mind blowing how much effort they are putting to make this game better im so excited for the full release btw watched

[@carlbrenston8436]

they didn't :(

[@SatQed]

Sound man, sound sucks

[@thejoyofcreation3307]

Idiot actually thought Valve would do their job right.

[@nmhjjp]

​@@carlbrenston8436they did, but the tism doesnt let you see it :(

[@Byoasis1]

@@carlbrenston8436 valorant still better :D

[@BeastyBundy]

Watched: They could definitely make the fire animation sync, and probably will, they most likely assumed it wouldn’t have that big of a gameplay effect

[@blueberrybraam]

Watched. Does this mean the firing animation is rendered server-side? If so; is it a possible solution to make the animation client-side? You would see the animation on "click" which would fix the weird feeling when shooting. They just have to sync the weapon handling on tick-basis to make it competitively viable and prevent issues with guns showing to enemies while it doesnt look that way on you own screen.

[@pudgebooster]

then you would have a delay between shooting and enemy dying because deaths are processed server side.

[@tekno47]

no, its client side already. and @pudgebooster there already is a delay between shooting and enemies dying, its just so small on low ping you dont notice it

[@aaron-ps7ht]

Nope the animation is for sure only client sided. The server would just waste precious resources. It's not so much that animation is rendered server-side, but the game state is calculated (and verified) by the server. I assume that they only give you the ok to shoot once the server has decided that you shot while you were still alive. But even that I'm not of as hardly anyone has a < 15ms ping. So it might just be that the entire animation rendering process is tied to the tick rate

[@wazzaaaa05]

@@tekno47 the firing animation isnt client sided because theres a delay bruh use ur common sense

[@tekno47]

​@@wazzaaaa05 you realise clients run on ticks too right? stop spreading misinformation when you dont know what you're talking about. go play on a 350 ping server right now and try shooting. there's no delay (apart from whats shown in this video)

[@user-mm5dr1lk3v]

Watched. I guess thats why spraying is difficult in cs2. We control the recoil based on the animations of the bullets being fired. If animation doesnt line up it could mean the actual spray might even be whole bullet ahead of the animation based on which we compensate.

[@lukasklupfel2927]

watched. This makes a lot of sense. I always felt like the hit reg is so much better and the sprays are the same but thought that the odd feeling comes from the viewmodel values. Turns out it's not the the viewmodels but the animations but they are displayed via the viewmodels, so I was kind of in the right direction. I suppose it's not as easy a fix as to trigger the animation client sided immediately, otherwise Valve would have done it already months ago before the limited test. Let's just hope someone really smart comes up with a good solution.

[@pierrotA]

The more I think about it, the more it seem impossible to solve without adding worst problems... What people fail to understand is that the tick is not only for the server, it's how a game update each frame. The client still use tick for each frame... The only difference is that servers generally have fixed tick-rate, when clients or local games have variable tick-rate based on the FPS. In short, if you move the animation entierely client-side the offset will be dependent on your FPS, creating a very large advantage for thoses that have better machines. In addition you will have roll-back problems (you shoot but you were already dead, you shoot but in fact you are already recharging, etc).

[@reimo7636]

can really feel this when throwing nades

[@HyperCS2]

I don't think people will ever stop complaining unless they get 128-tick servers coz it has been wired in our minds that it is the only solution. More apparent from Valorant and faceit's servers.

[@roddimonster]

This is GREAT, its important to have a person like you making these issues more visible to the community so Valve can work faster, thank you maxim

[@kc8189]

i don't think that's something they can fix, its just that it explains to people why it does feel weird, cause i felt something off, but it wasn't affecting the gameplay - maybe i'll play it more now

[@ntariku]

Watched. I have hope that these issues will be resolved and cs2 will be even bigger success than csgo

[@m.n.s.s2825]

It will be amazing if they make the animations as fast as the shooting, It gonna be better than 128 if that happens

[@MrMaxim]

Both of you are expressing my thoughts exactly

[@akhiilgupta]

That is also the reason why we see more responsiveness in 128 ticks as compared to 64 tick in the sub tick system. If valve optimises it then 64 tick vs 128 tick may not be an argument in the near future.

[@Greg2fram]

As a gamedev, I highly doubt that animations are triggered server-side, especially with a sub-tick system that allows to shoot at any time.

[@evlad7238]

animations are obviously triggered client side, but it could be waiting for the next server tick before showing the animation to be in sync, idk

[@FloIstMoep]

Why would you want to sync that? The weapon animation that the client sees is only relevant for the client.

[@Kaizagade]

@@FloIstMoep im going to guess due to sound effects? As thats a huge thing in counter strike. Gives away positions and if thats delayed it could be the difference between getting the kill or being killed

[@DR-54]

They probably synced the animations to the server tickrate because in csgo, the bullets would also be synced to the server tickrate and it would produce a more accurate experience and guns would feel way better and more responsive this way. Then, in cs2, they forgot to remove the animation delay and now everyone can't spray for shit. In simpler terms, csgo had the exact opposite issue where the animation would play before the bullet fired. They fixed this by syncing them to the tickrate. When moving to cs2, they forgot to stop syncing them to the tickrate. Thus, we are having the exact same problem years later. This time, it's due to the fix to the last problem.

[@Greg2fram]

@@DR-54 Even sincing the animation to the tickrate in CS:GO sounds crazy to me. You want a game to be reactive. The time between the click and the action on screen has to be the lowest possible. The hits registering on the server are a different matter, and that's were we have those 64 checks per second (are you hitting that guy, or not?). If I had to guess, people sometimes miss on CS2 because everything is slightly different, and those difference added up make them miss the first bullet, or their spray timing.

[@swagboyyy]

Watched. Subtick is neat, but imo it's not production ready until the animations are able to be synced up. Game feel is the most important thing when playing a video game, so it doesn't matter how accurate subtick is, if it feels worse for the player, then it is worse.

[@herald1953]

the amount of effort from the community to discover this is the reasons why i love valve's games

[@hadziun994]

Watched, this would explain some of the flicks in csgo where you shoot and then flicking, killing a player that wasn't originally in your shot. This eliminate that.

[@SarthakSPyt]

There's a guy on youtube that did a circle flick test on csgo and cs2 with all guns and he found that if you are moving your mouse when shooting, the shot goes first before the mouse crosshair. So if you do a 360 and shoot and stop immediately, for that he used a bind and script in cs2, but if you do that, then the shot bullet hole will appear first and the crosshair will exceed it moving forward. This video explains why that happens.

[@Ashen75]

Yeah, the shot gets registered at a subtick level and shoots instantly (as it should), but your crosshair movement is way too frequent to reasonably be sent to the server at a subtick level so it will still be moving during the remaining milliseconds after the subtick was processed, and end up at a separate place from where you shot once the next tick arrives. It's basically like subtick removed the tick-rate based input delay that we're all used to experiencing which makes things far more precise but causes weird situations like this to happen due to how shooting and movement are separate from the tickrate system while crosshair position is still tied to the tickrate.

[@AlbertWesker_GOAT]

In csgo when flicking the left click is pressed when the crosshair is exactly on the head, not before. Definitely in my opinion CS2 is not really accurate.

[@Kaizagade]

the keybind stops the spinning and clicks at the same time, so therefore the shot is where you stopped, so the bullet shouldnt be behind the corsshair@@Ashen75

[@Ashen75]

​@@AlbertWesker_GOAT Cursor movement is still being fully processed at a client-side level so if you really clicked on the head from your perspective, as long as latency interpolation issues don't occur you will hit your shot. The server won't show that you were aiming at the head and the VOD probably also won't show it since VODs record things from the server's perspective, but as long as it happened from your client-side perspective, your game will use the sub-tick system to tell the server that the shot happened at the exact point it was from your perspective, and it will register it as a hit.

[@AlbertWesker_GOAT]

@jjh75 And what's latency interpolation? It has something to do with my internet speed and ping?

[@Omkar_Rangole]

This video explained very well, I didn't understand the sub tick system well by watching other videos, nice explaination!

[@bnhm1871]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the shooting animation was instantaneous and done locally, wouldn't there be a delay before the enemy is killed (since this would be calculated server side, and on the next tick)? Maybe it would be small enough to not really notice.

[@pudgebooster]

yes you are correct! and don't forget about ping, so the delay would be even longer than a tick duration.

[@tekno47]

theres already a delay if you have ping

[@mitchg93]

@@tekno47 No shit Sherlock... latencies stack together, so we try to minimize each of them at an individual level.

[@tekno47]

@@mitchg93 what? shooting animations are already done locally, the only delay is the subtick issue shown in this video. and because it's already local, there is already a delay before enemies are killed. i'm not saying don't fix the issue in this video, i think it would be a great fix to have shooting animations start as soon as you click. i'm just saying that there's already a delay before enemies are killed, just with ~30 ping you can't notice it so it looks like there isn't any.

[@clikcy_]

Just watched it and this explains why my flicky awp playstyle just somehow, sometimes, just misses. Good video.

[@hov2435]

watched. An easy way to fix this is if they make CS2 process the gun shot animation locally, as opposed to waiting for server command or for the next tick to arrive. As soon as a mouse click is registered, the game can immediately render the gun firing so if a shot hits, there's no delay, if it doesn't, it will just look like you miss your shots without affecting the logic of the game, as least not for the person shooting.

[@kefkef5]

Yeah, running the animation on the client should be straightforward without affecting all the other physics calculations of the game. The one downside is that the person getting killed might not even see the animation happening on their screen. Or when they move into cover during the same tick as the shot, the advantage will always be the one making the shot.

[@jonald4784]

Watched, great vid! Seems to me like solving this "problem" without reverting back to what we have in csgo would be difficult, but I'm hopeful they can fix it anyway!

[@mischol]

totally agree, what i also really dont like is shooting after being hit with a nade. idk why but it just feels wrong to shoot without any type of noise to go with the shot (even if you where to only hear your own shots dampened)

[@alphawolf6708]

Watched Yeah i feel like the visual factor is just that final brick in the wall that needs to be added/fixed in order for the foundation of CS2 to be perfect. That, and better performance on CPUs post 2013. Its also interesting to see how many players, including myself, can somehow feel even the slightest delay/offset in the timings of everything too.

[@dodu-zi8bd]

How could they fix the visual factor ? Shooting isn't tied to tickrate and the visual factor is tied to tick rate. There is an unavoidable 15.625 ms delay on 64 ticks that is not possible to remove. They wanted to make 64 tick subtick better than 128 tick and made 128 tick even more necessary

[@alphawolf6708]

@@dodu-zi8bd Dont ask me, im not a software expert or game dev. But we know that if the disappearance of tracers can alter the feeling of the game by a lot, a very VERY small factor like the animations not being in sync with the tickrate could still heavily change the handling of weapons in game. Lets just see how valve does it though. Their fix streak is getting good.

[@HTK9325]

watched, now i can understand why the spraying feels of but tapping feels good if they are able to fix this so the tap and animation happen in the same moment(tick) this would be game changing

[@SNOOWGOOSE]

I personally felt that tapping is more natural than the spraying while gamin’ too, and this was the base issue of that problem.

[@keshav_c17]

Nice research man. It seems about right. Now I am able to understand the sub-tick concept much clearer than before (depending upon the accuracy of this research). Let's hope Valve has some solution to this. It will be amazing if Valve figures out a way to tackle this. 🤞

[@Oliver_bohman]

yea. this is pissing me off, and the dude in the video said it was good. its more "accurate" but at the same time NOT accurate at all. hitboxes and subtick is fucked in CS2 just copy everything, Movement. Aiming. flicking. jumping. and so on from CSGO imo

[@ICECOLD_SEAL]

Watched! Alla dina videos såklart ;) Detta är så J*VLA bra förklaring och om dem löser problemet är det ju nice! Om dem fixar så att skottet avfyras tidigare så blir det jobbigt, och vad händer om 2 spelare skjuter på EXAKT samma tic, och registreras på nästa, vem dör? :O

[@Reggy-TV]

Watched and loved it! Great research by everyone involved, and thank you for compiling, distilling, furthering the research, and spreading the word! :) I have some thoughts on this and would like to share them to see if any sound applicable / realistic. So, to clarify my understanding of subtick and its relation to this situation, as MrMaxim explains in the video, the subtick is tracking the exact sub-second moment that the shot is registered on the client side, and waiting for the next server-tick to register that information. This delay, from my understanding (could be wrong, of course), applies to both the registration of the shot (ie, server registers and displays player dead if you shot while they were in your crosshair), as well as the shot animation. I believe this is exemplified in the way the enemy character continues to walk, even on client side, while it waits to receive confirmation that there are no conflicting actions that happened before that millisecond that could negate it. POSSIBLE SOLUTION: I suggest merely switching the animations / sounds of gunfire to a client side action, similar to the way the sounds of switching your weapons is neither broadcasted to or from the server. I believe this option is likely something valve has already or is currently still considering, and maybe they were just waiting for the cs2 server infrastructure and interp settings to be at a more reliable place before doing this. It's hard to speculate on that side of things, however, I do believe that switching it to client side is a good long term solution. No matter how you slice it, with the subtick system being the route, there will be delay or backtraces on some end, to account for conflicting outcomes etc, but their are similar drawbacks to the old system as well, so im fine with them working to iron this one out. Having the sound on the client side would remove the audio / visual delay that feels so disjarring for the shots. Everyone on the server will still get aggregated events for all subtick events that happen on other clients, since, to our current knowledge of the system, it's still registering and transmitting the subtick information back and forth to the clients via 64 ticks. Hopefully there are no obstacles that make this solution unfeasible. Please let me know if you have any thoughts on this :) I appreciate that valve is taking the time to work on the server related settings / defaults for in game (interp updates recently), as well as work out kinks in the finer details of the game / server to get it to be polished

[@_tobii]

Very well said. One thing to keep in mind is that backtrack or rollback synchronization is very hard to get right in netcode, especially in some like CSGO, where so much can actually happen in one tick, on the server and in every client. That being said, they did get subtick implemented, so who knows

[@Zeazy]

Watched. I read the post and knew this video was gonna be about it. The dedication to research is beautiful.

[@amirhas191]

Thanks for the video, Max! Now can you do a video on why CS2 spray feels weird as well? Because it felt inconsistent and needs to pull mouse down more compare to CSGO

[@rahulahl]

Depends on the gun. My main gun is MP7, and I dont get what all others are saying is "wrong feeling" about the shooting.

[@ZajebisteJakPojebane]

@@rahulahl "my main gun is MP7" xDDDDD that's the reason, you're probably in Silver.

[@rahulahl]

@@ZajebisteJakPojebane ​ 1) I dont know what the point of that argument is? Here I am providing a data point from the POV of a MP7 user so OP can help figure out if its a weapon based issue or game based issue. And you are trying to make it out as if the opinion of a silver player does not matter? 2) I usually hover between MGE-LE. Once in a blue moon, I touch LEM, but my reactions are simply not what they were and I'm probably never gonna get a higher rank because I just don't have the drive to push myself. This is just a game where I hang out with my mates and have fun. In the past, I used to be SMFC. And yes, that was me using XM and MP7 back in the day.

[@MrGatlin98]

Watched. This is why flicking with an AWP is essentially impossible now. It used to be that you could click and flick at the same time and the crosshair would land on the head as the bullet shot. Now with the precise timing, the moment you click, you "shoot" so the animation may show you on their head but the shot happened way before so you miss. It's more correct this way but the animations need to be synced to the shot. ...im sure there's problems with that too. Like maybe killing someone on your screen but the server hasn't caught up so you die to their shot instead. Not sure.

[@Joke89ful]

watched, i think your explanation is on point . I am more worried about cheater situation , can you make video about that (what has been promised and what to expect from valve in this matter) ? thanks for good content , keep up the good work !!!

[@pyroV12]

Yeah subtick is really cool, just Valve needs to polish it a bit more and there we go

[@drScorp1on]

Watched. Wonderfully well explained, top production quality. Having both actions in sync would be great.

[@neptune.8108]

ive had several experiences where i peek a corner, see someone who shoots at me, so i go back behind cover, and then die. it feels like im playing with 150ms ping instead of 64tick

[@jeron1847]

I think you explained completely correct but it’s weird since if you would play the CSGO example 10 times there is a chance that you would hit several shots because the tick is happening like 0.5 ms after your shot thus making it more inconsistent than CS2 where you always hit the shot only the animation is delayed. I’m curious to see what solution Valve comes up with but otherwise I think we just have to get used to it.

[@MrBa143]

The problem is you cannot get used to this. The delay varies between 1 ms to 15 ms. If the delay was consistent, then we could get used to it.

[@jeron1847]

@@MrBa143 the same happens in CSGO. If you click there is also a delay between 1 and 15 ms when your shot registers and then its not compensated for the moment you clicked (the sub-tick) so the new system is objectively better.

[@usem_and_losem937]

watched, I think my muscle memory is so built out from cs go that I feel like i'm missing all my shots.

[@maxzett]

It just feels horrible. I don't even think that fixing the firing animation would resolve the issue as the enemy's player model would still move until the next tick and I think that's the thing that throws me off the most personally

[@HandjobHandsome]

theres no ticks, small brain

[@Ashen75]

Movement is also processed at a subtick level though, so you will still be hitting shots that you were supposed to hit. Any issues regarding enemy movement are mostly a result of latency-based interpolation, which is another issue of its own.

[@maxzett]

@@Ashen75 yea that's not what I meant, but its just super confusing if the subtick already knows you got the kill, yet the player keeps moving until the next tick

[@autotv1969]

Watched. Thank you for this analysis, I hope you have a wonderful Fall!!

[@n01z3]

can also feel the action and animation registering with nades. pull out a nade and try toss it and switch back to your gun, we always do to save those preciouses milliseconds, often you wont even get passed tossing the nade part of this. always feel i got to wait 120ms or so just to be safe that the nade gets thrown with out being put back in your pocket.

[@-T1m-CS]

I think sub tick is better but sometimes there is a noticeable delay before i shoot my gun. The place you notice the most is shooting inferno's bells in a certain pattern repeating it. This is how you feel the most of the delay.

[@-T1m-CS]

I don't have telegram

[@young7783]

Saw some videos on this Delay topic but wasn't really satisfied with some of the explanations, so I'm glad you stepped in the clear things up. This actually makes sense, ty

[@LuizCesarCS]

If they could fix only the firing shot of the weapon animation to be synchronized with the mouse click I think would be solved. The other animations and and killtags etc can be registrated on the next tick.

[@gautamnegi9675]

A separate counter can be implemented for essential animation actions like shooting & jump and then that counter can be synched with hit reg or more specifically action counter which is already present. it makes no sense why firing animation was kept tick rate dependent and only hit reg was made sub tick.

[@romaliop]

Probably just developer oversight. I think they've started from everything being tied to the tickrate by default and then especially made some things register on the subtick level. I'd imagine it will be pretty simple to sync the clientside animations to the subtick timings now that people actually realized that's an issue.

[@gautamnegi9675]

@@romaliop agreed and fix should be simple one imo.

[@sim00n99]

You could theoreticly dissconect the animation trigger from running on tick updates and instead only run it localy on keystroke trigger. Don't know anything at all about the source/source2 engine but if the UI isn't locked to ticks they should be able to to something similar to that.

[@badeaadrian4529]

"What you see is kind of what you get" - Vavle

[@piranhaman1044]

Don’t know why it took so long for people to figure this out.

[@RaimaNd]

Oh lol that's why when I shot on an enemy and turn around to fall back sometimes the enemy dies when I also did a nearly 180° turn. Good to know. At the same time this is why many shots miss against enemies who walk from left/right side to the other in CSGO because tickrate makes you miss. Thats why 64 tick sucks.

[@FortabtGaming]

watched. i really like that you go in depth with this.

[@andreiserde9441]

Thank you so much for keeping us up to date with all the developments. Watched.

[@Killoer]

Noticed more on sprays, and surprisingly pistol round; short delay, but can explain how some shots land and other dont. Then again, Ill still probably say movement and lack of spray control is still a main issue on shots not hitting; but hope they can smooth things out in the future

[@IdoN_Tlikethis]

this would explain why some pro players have a problem where their shots don't land, especially when doing fast flicks, because in csgo when you flick you essentially have to click before your crosshair is on the head, because the shot will be delayed by up to 15ms, but now in cs2 you actually have to click exactly when you're on the head but it still _looks_ like it's delayed, which makes it unintuitive

[@Wansixx162]

Watched man! A friend of mine briefly mentioned the idea of making firing anim client side, but keeping gotv / spectator server side As i dont know anything about this (even tho i am lvl 10💀), would this be a potential fix? Or are both parties limited by the same tick limitations Do you have an idea on how they could/would fix it? Curious on your thoughts, cheers!

[@big_nickos5609]

watched, want to say thankyou for the ongoing content re cs2

[@Sherfps]

Especially Spraying, first bullet accuraty and lag compansation feels off, Movement feels weird ( looks faster, smooth etc ). Also now low pings have advantage but players like me ( playin between 40-50-60 ping ) usually die behind the wall.

[@EleanorEtAl]

I feel like shooting is way more comfy in cs2 than csgo. I used to suck at sprays and relied mostly on burst and tap firing in GO, but in 2 I spray all the time and it feels so much nicer/more consistant. Ive also been doing way better on pistol rounds, which normally I'd dread every match. I hadnt even noticed there was a delay in the animation tbh. I dont listen to the firing cycle to time my spray, I just keep time in my head from when I first click/shoot, so maybe that is why it doesnt bother me like it does for others. Watched.

[@seventus]

It's not just the animation, but the mouse movement. Someone did a test where he spun and clicked, and the shots were consistently off due to it not synching with mouse movement...

[@larsfinlay7325]

they optimized the game for lan events at the expense of the online player base. cool.

[@V-XENO]

Watched. There's this with the added fact that the game registers mouse movement vectors and shooting in different ways, which is why shots don't land where you were aiming when you clicked but where the game thinks your crosshair was at such time.

[@NaufalHerma]

Watched and again your content makes me understand CS2 better after playing it, GGs

[@TreuC]

Watched. Makes a lot of sense, thanks for the explainer, been racking my brains tryna figure out why gunplay felt so weird!

[@marble25]

When you click depending on your connection there's also ~50ms delay and cs sadly doesnt have bullet travel its just an instant "laser"

[@apeir0n3]

Watched. This truly feels like an accurate description as to why shooting doesn’t quite feel the same. It may look the same, but many of us with the muscle memory of CSGO can just feel that something is off. Off-topic, but I wonder if this is the same case with movement? My friends and I describe it as sometimes it feels like our characters are “sliding on ice.”

[@zTPure]

This is a really great video, it really shows how tickrate works and how CSGO and CS2 registrer the clicks/bullets! Nice job MrMaxim

[@larrilamanosa8526]

This is good. Although not a pleasing experience, this makes it so that missing a shot is 100% your fault and not by a tick. Overtime i believe people will get used to this.

[@844box]

Watched. This issue needs to be solved for the full release!

[@BeBarnee]

Watched. This makes total sense now, and I'm happy that this can potentionally be solved!

[@dodu-zi8bd]

it can only be solved with high tickrate

[@BeBarnee]

@@dodu-zi8bd did you understand nothing from the video?? 🤦‍♂️

[@shawki4447]

WATCHED! honestly am thinking that an easy fix would be to make the shooting animations in specific be client sided. but this means that it would be calculated twice on both the client side and the server since other players would have to hear and see the animations too. but a small discrepancy in that would be better than it affecting how shooting feels. not sure if its actually technically possible tho. am not a programmer or anything.

[@joostfloot5279]

This is what I was thinking too, but don't know anything about programming either.

[@noodlesfan8536]

its how they do it, its just that the animations are interpolated between tick intervals and not the subtick

[@IamSoulfuller]

@@noodlesfan8536there are no subtick intervals. Ticks are doing same job as before, but subtick gives data time stamps. So you update game state in between ticks only, but it now has chronology, because of time sequences.

[@SergeantGadriel]

Just bring back 64 tick period

[@pedropinto5923]

I never comment on videos but props to you man, this video was the only one that actually explained whats going on.

[@coolguy9727]

Watched, Not sure if this was asked already, but why couldn’t valve just duplicate the firing animation, one on the client synced with clicking the mouse and one on server side that is synced with the sub-tick calculations. That way, the shooting would “feel” the same as CS:GO for the client, but still take advantage of the improvements of sub-tick.

[@notnothaze]

wow ok thats actually really cool because that means if they just sync the animation to the shot being fired on subticks it should feel consistent (like in csgo) while retaining the more accurate subtick hit-reg/shot-reg in CS2. best of both worlds scenario

[@Dra1n__TV]

That's why the scout feels so good

[@KeijonAutoVuokra]

CSGO does process at the server in the point that you saw on your screen (approximately), subtick is just more accurate.

[@TheRealBezani]

How do you feel about spraying now? I feel like spraying feels very off. Like I spray like I did in CSGO but it just doesn’t feel the same and sometimes the shots just don’t hit at all even though blood splats out of the player.

[@merchant_of_kek5697]

I think the biggest problem is people are confusing two problems. This one described but there’s definitely a huge gap between models and hit boxes. Watching pros play and such but on premier matchmaking, seeing people causally die behind cover or vice versa dying when no one even peaked.

[@lesos352]

also if you shoot while you are moving the crosshair the shot will land where your crosshair was the last tick, as shooting works with subtick but not the cross refresh

[@buzzkilling042]

Now it makes sense why in cs2 you would seemingly miss and still hit a headshot while in csgo you would hit but the game says you didn't hit

[@wheeldwell]

If this is indeed how it works, then perhaps decoupking so the player is having the animations run locally on their player character could be a way forward. So it feels instant for the player with synced animation and sub-tick hit registration.

[@MaximusGDN]

If this is true it also explain why spraying feels weird, as you compensate the recoil based on the visual animation but the actual shots are not synced with it

[@BigManax]

watched + just commenting to drive up that engagement :)

[@UncleOji]

I feel like inputs in general have become more delayed. Like when during a rollout I’ll “Que” a grenade to by my last weapon selected and then switch to my primary so I don’t have to scroll through my utility. Very frequently I’ll notice that the responsiveness of my weapon switches are delayed.

[@SabanLeon]

I honestly dont get why people are complaining... For me the game feels insane in pretty much every aspect. Could do some fps improvements with molos and smokes... The shots when fast flicking as well aka awp feels weird... everything else is amazing

[@ReikiMaulana]

I personally haven't played a lot of CS since 2016 so it didn't actually feel off to me.. But now I'm back and I only knew about this today, thanks for the explanation vid

[@sohamray4441]

Watched. Why can't valve make the shooting animation clint sided for me and server sided for rest of the players. Then fireing animation would play as soon as I shoot (depending on my own input latency). For the rest of the players in the server the animation would play on the next tick. It could be a solution if they can implement it.

[@asD-xs6ob]

If they just didnt go for subshittick and just give us normal 128tick it would be 15times better