Is This Why We Don't See Mormons on Catholic Channels?

[@AlecSorensen]

Trent Horn: Protestants don't have authority to say people are or are not Christians, because they are sola scriptura and the Bible never explicitly lays out the edges of Christianity. My church *does* have that authority. Why? Horn: Because the creeds of my church say so.

[@whitebeans7292]

Well protestants do say that no one has that authority. There is no authoritative body in Protestantism, that's simply a fact.

[@treystone9464]

The Church either perpetuated and all are wrong to separate from them, or it fell and needs restoration and nothing truly in between.

[@Jerome616]

Yes, the group as a whole ... That's how it worked for the early church (Council of Jerusalem), and that's how it works today. The church regulates it's self.

[@mkprr]

1st John defines what it looks like to be a Christian.

[@lesgraham7722]

@@Jerome616 you mean not through a prophet like Amos 3:7 specifies?

[@cameronreed1411]

Having served my mission in Greece, it was interesting to see how much Hellenism influenced early Christianity. A good example of this was their veneration of golden images of saints which they would kiss and pray to. Orthodox churches are beautiful, but I often thought of how the gold plated images of saints at the back of the church that people were praying to reminded me of ancient Greek temples and their patrons praying to their preferred god for help and blessings. I think Truman Madsen said the marriage of Hellenism and Christianity was one of the most disastrous things to have happened to the Church. - Peter did not pass his keys on to Linus (the Catholic selected 2nd Pope) - Pope Urban I was elected (not selected by Christ or His apostles) - The Catholic position is that Bishops took charge of the Church after the death of the apostles. - Our position is that the apostles were supposed to continue as a quorum leading the Church through Revelation but when they were killed the keys to direct the Church were lost and these keys were not passed to Bishops for multiple reasons. - The Catholics and Orthodox had the "great schism" in 1054 where 2 prominent bishops disagreed and split the "Church" up. - Didn't Christ say a house divided against itself cannot stand? - Nibley said the Christian Church went from being led by revelation to being led by philosophical councils. - The end of the New Testament and Protestant Reformation are proof positive that the Church had lost its way and become a keyless zombie church. Where is Trent's proof of the ontological divide between God and man? We cannot trust the councils. I'm fascinated by how much other Christians try to distance themelves from the Biblical doctrine that we are the children of God by saying we are "creatures" as if we're on the same level as animals and while we can all agree that the difference in character and power between Who God is and who we are is massive, that doesn't mean we aren't the children of God. What did Christ say? "Come, follow me" said Christ - isn't the ultimate implication of this invitation echoed in His other declaration on the Sermon on the Mount, "Be ye therefore perfect as your Father is who is in heaven"? We're invited to become like God by following Christ and learning to be perfect as He is. "What came through Joseph Smith was beyond Joseph Smith, and it stretched him! In fact, the doctrines that came through that “choice seer” (2 Nephi 3:6-7) by translation or revelation, are often so light-intensive that, like radioactive materials, they must be handled with great care!" Neal Maxwell, "A Choice Seer" 1986. With Maxwell's quote in mind I would say that modern Christianity is not equipped to handle the "light-intensive" doctrines of the Restoration and as such are treated like "radioactive" materials by the rest of Christiandom. New wine cannot go into old/broken wineskins, folks.

[@HaleStorm49]

Greece? Fascinating. Yes Truman said of that marriage between early christianity and greek philosophy, that _there had never been a divorce._ I need to go back and read that Maxwell talk again. My wife is really riding this wave of nutrition and learning about the "Big Food" industry. We were talking about how there was an ultra Processed doctrinal Industry for centuries and its had similar results on the public. Thx for the insights Cameron.

[@cameronreed1411]

@@HaleStorm49 great points about food! Elder Maxwell made a comparison of eating wholegrain gospel over the world's fast-food philosophies. Thanks for the video.

[@Aaron-SLC]

Don't read the old testament. One could reasonably conclude jews were just taking from pagans

[@richardmiller4499]

Comment for the algorithm. More people need to understand this. The church is true the book is blue.

[@HaleStorm49]

@richardmiller4499 I'm pretty sure got shadowbanned when I interviewed Colin Flaherty years ago but I appreciate it.

[@paulblack1799]

The Jacob/Trent pre debate chit chat was pretty good. Trent made the actual debate painful. 😢

[@HaleStorm49]

Agreed. Joe Rogan style chit chat would have been better. I think Pints discerns there is too much downside risk.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

​@@HaleStorm49Mormon theology is always illogical and painful.

[@rconger24]

Yes, when protestants say " _sola scriptura_ " whats really meant is *Bible + Creeds.* And, when catholics say " _christ's church_ " whats really meant is *Creeds - Bible* .

[@HaleStorm49]

Zing! That one is going to leave a mark. Catechism + Creeds??

[@MrVigilant1]

Yeah, I always found it funny how these people accuse us of adding to the Bible when they clearly did that a LONG time ago. Also don't remember the Lord ever telling us to pray to saints, Baptize infants... On the contrary, He told us to be saints and become as little children.

[@grayman7208]

scriptural mormonism with robert boylan destroys trent horn.

[@HaleStorm49]

I saw they did a debate review...is it worth watching?

[@grayman7208]

@@HaleStorm49 yes. horn is completely out of his league.

[@cliftonwinkler1460]

100% agree he look like a fool I was just reaching for the weeds on the debate

[@punkmonk76]

To Trent I would ask, Why was a council and new Creed even necessary if the Catholic church was always Christ's church? And why did it take almost 300 years after Christ to come to determine these beliefs? If this was still Christ's church surely these beliefs would have been determined while Christ or at least his original Apostles were still on the earth.

[@enslavedbytruth]

The Church was having councils when the Apostles were alive according to the scripture...why would that tradition not carry on...

[@alejandrovalenzuela377]

@@enslavedbytruth councils by APOSTLES, who were authorized to clear these things up. The Catholic Church moved from spiritual councils by those sent by God to philosophical councils by well meaning people without authority from God. The church itself asserts revelation ended at the death of the last apostle. They had no more revelation/authority to settle anything. This is why they relied on Hellenist philosophy and corrupted what was taught by the Jewish/Hebrew prophets.

[@enslavedbytruth]

@@alejandrovalenzuela377 Name a Dogma of the Church that's strictly based on Hellenistic Philosophy

[@HaleStorm49]

_strictly_ being the key word...since its hard to find an early Catholic dogma that was not influenced by Hellenistic Philosophy....starting with the Trinity.

[@HaleStorm49]

It is a fun exercise to hear modern catholics complain about vatican II and complain about how the culture is ruining the church, but then completely dismiss the possibility that this may have also occurred during the much longer time period between the Apostles and the Emperor's council. _for the decrees of 300 holy bishops are not to be disregarded, especially as the spirit of the deity, who is present and resides in the great company of the saints, clearly shows the divine will through them._ _Therefore, let nothing be done contrary to this decision, which has been established by the sanction of so many and such great men._ _For when one sees the law laid down and the mind of the Church expressed with such authority, who could possibly oppose the judgment of so many holy men, unless someone dares to resist God Himself?_ There should be a Babylon Bee skit about this. They called him Emperor for a reason.

[@nickallen2288]

Wow thank God for KZbin recommended! I’m 10 minutes in and already know I found a goldmine of a KZbin channel.

[@lesgraham7722]

So what he is saying that an all powerful God, is not powerful enough to make his sons and daughter like him? He is therefore not all powerful. A bit of irony.

[@andrewolsen2711]

Wasn’t the term ‘Christian’ first given to the church in Antioch centuries prior to the Nicene council? So why do we define Christian as someone who adheres to the creeds?

[@HaleStorm49]

Yes if you don't count the Christians in pre-Christian era on the western hemisphere who had this epithet applied to them 100 years earlier. I am fond of saying people who are politically red-pilled don't realize they are spiritually blue pilled...and this is another great example: Picture someone who will go on social media and scream about censorship, cancellation, wokeism, elite status signaling, and divisiveness via labeling will keep a straight face while telling a fellow christian they aren't _real christians_ because a council has decreed it..?? Its Common Core for religion.

[@Malygosblues]

In the same way that people before Christ's birth, life, death and resurrection can be called the people of God even though salvation is through Christ.

[@raulofmustachio3d]

You just earned a new follower. Great work

[@MrVigilant1]

Just look at the biblical context of the word Father, and you will see that a father is not only your literal parent, but anyone you look up to and try to emulate. Just like "brother" and "sister" are words you use to acknowledge someone as your equal as well as your literal siblings. We will never be brothers and sisters of our Father in Heaven, even if we become gods ourselves, we will always be His children. As we become like God it only elevates and glorifies Him as The God of gods. All we do and become, if it is His work, adds to His glory. Your parents will always be your parents; even when you become a parent yourself. Surely, if God is all-powerful, He has the ability to reproduce like even the least His creations.

[@batboy12394]

My favorite response i received on my mission to describe the trinity was, "of course it doesn't make sense. Imagine a tree growing but the roots are reaching to the sky, it just doesn't fit in our understanding".

[@HaleStorm49]

I might have needed him to draw a picture ;)

[@MusicBlik]

If you turn a tree upside down and plant it roots-first, its branches will root in and its roots will leaf out. A tree knows which direction is up.

[@jope2123]

Your channel is very underrated. I enjoyed this video

[@rconger24]

Yes very!

[@HaleStorm49]

Always so kind Ray.

[@AlecSorensen]

I would agree with Trent that God/Christ/Heaven don't *have* to be inside the universe as we know it. In fact, scientifically, most of the universe is not in the universe as we know it. Most of the universe is in "dark matter" and "dark energy" which are called dark because we figure they must be there indirectly from some calculations, but we have no clue what they are. We can't see them. We don't know by what laws they operate. So, scientifically, we KNOW that most of the universe is invisible to us. And that's just what we know we don't know. What about all that we don't have a clue about? Other dimensions in this universe, or even other universes? Keeping in mind a very open mind about existence beyond what we know as the universe, there are ways you can look at creedal Christians as correct on many points from a perspective of only the universe as we know, while the LDS view differs because it takes into account things that happen outside of the universe as we know it (revealed through prophets). A possible interpretation of Mormonism: that God exists outside this universe and created this universe, and that when we are made perfect, we will transcend this universe and create our own. From the point of view of this universe, God has always been, he must exist (because he's why the universe exists), he has always been perfect (in the timeline of this universe), and man will never become a creator like him in *this* universe. From the point of view of an exaltation that transcends the universe, things look different. At some point, if we are to be perfected in Christ, omniscient like God, it may happen outside of this universe. Then when we create a universe as God has shown us and enabled us to do, from the perspective of people in *that* universe and their timeline, we will always have been perfect, all-knowing, without beginning or end, because we have no beginning or end in their concept of time. ---- Now this doesn't fix the creedal notion of an immaterial God instead of a bodily God, but I do think begins to hint out how finite beings can become eternal and infinite like God, which makes the bodily nature of God easier to understand and believe.

[@HaleStorm49]

It is interesting how that people are arguing from perspective of who knows more when in the big picture it should always be who knows less, since collectively we know slightly more than nothing.

[@AlecSorensen]

@@HaleStorm49 I think it's good to seek to know more, but it's helpful to touch base with how much we don't know. Not just for general humility when talking about the big picture with others, but also remembering how much MORE God knows than us, and how much MORE is possible with Him than even the best intentioned and most faithful person would put on the table.

[@jessicaloveridge2759]

I love what you said about who cares what you believe. Faith is not the same as belief. Faith is trust and belief that leads to action. Without action it is dead.

[@WARDRADIO]

Interesting…

[@HaleStorm49]

@@WARDRADIO You can count this as a ministering visit 😘

[@SCPN333]

I love Ward Radio & Thoughtful faith.

[@brianthomassen2209]

Horn errs in not being able to distinguish between heresy and infidelity. The former is a corruption of truth claim X, for example Arians who rejected the consubstantiality claims of trinitarianism (from a trinitarian perspective). The latter is disbelief in truth claim X. For example, a Muslim rejecting the divinity claims about Jesus of Nazareth.

[@kaparowitz7393]

Funny analysis. Literally laughing out loud at your comments. Why not? Where does it say that? So someone just decided this for you and now you have to go along with it? I love the Latter Day Saint theology so much. It frees you from the shackles of the made up philosophies of man and this terrible spaghetti-like argument of the Godhead.

[@mkprr]

Christians adopted philosophical language to describe what was already in scripture. Colossians 1:15-19 [15] He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. [16] For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things were created through him and for him. [17] And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [18] And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. [19] For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell…

[@HaleStorm49]

They adopted more than the language.

[@mkprr]

@@HaleStorm49 we all adopt various ideas from the cultures we are in but traditional Christian theology contradicts in many points the prevailing Hellenistic ideas of God and creation and the cosmos. If you want to find an exact description of the LDS concept of god though look up what Plato called a “demiurge” and look at his explanation of the cosmos being eternally pre existing but in shapeless chaos until the demiurge forms it. Look up Plato’s dialogue “Timeus” for details.

[@HaleStorm49]

@@mkprr When did you leave the church and where do you attend church now?

[@loudogg73]

how can you say Christ is co-equal with the Father when Christ himself says, "my father is greater than I"?

[@jotoneal1343]

equal in nature, not equal in authority. This is basic trinitarianism and was answered by church fathers 1900+ years ago. Also Philippians 2:5-6

[@loudogg73]

@@jotoneal1343 Sure but the word co-equal implies being equal. If his father is greater than him (in any way) that is not equal (by very definition). Do you see the problem there?

[@jotoneal1343]

​@@loudogg73 Not a problem at all. Like I said, they are completely equal in essence and nature. The son submits to the father, as any good son would, that does not make Him less than the Father. In the same way that you submitting to your earthly father does not make you less than him an any way.

[@loudogg73]

@@jotoneal1343 Christ does submit to the Father. He also says the father is greater. Is that not true?

[@jotoneal1343]

@@loudogg73 Not in nature or essence. This was explained and Arian heresy was debunked 1700 years ago.

[@grayman7208]

12:47 nowhere does any scripture confirm that. nor does christ, nor any apostle, nor any prophet. nor does god, himself.

[@SCPN333]

This was a good debate, Jacob from thoughtful faith did very well, I also like trent horn.

[@HaleStorm49]

@@SCPN333 I like Horn too, just don't like how believers turn into atheists around Mormons.

[@SCPN333]

@@HaleStorm49 It happens a lot, if I was good with video editing I could make Cliffe Knechtle debate himself, he is good defending Christianity against atheist yet when attacking the LDS church he uses the same attacks that the atheist use against Christianity.

[@socialsmigs1626]

"Trinity no understand = false" That's your argument? Pff.. explains why there aren't a lot of mormons on debate for sure

[@HaleStorm49]

@@socialsmigs1626 video no understand = angry. That's your argument?

[@socialsmigs1626]

@@HaleStorm49 Oh me understands fo sho is why me know that you bad agyument

[@socialsmigs1626]

@@HaleStorm49 and mr halestorm sir agyument consis a leas twu pwemises and den conclusion, above statement aint no agyument but only statement of fact mr halestorm sir, a obsaveyshan

[@samsonparks1645]

unfortunately this video only serves to force a wider divide between catholics and lds. In context of the discussion Horn is clearly explaining the catholic viewpoint, but this video presents as though he is making truth claims, then disputing the idea that it's true. Jacob does a great job of working to build bridges during the discussion and it's a shame we dont get to see him do that here.

[@HaleStorm49]

@@samsonparks1645 What would you have done differently?

[@grayman7208]

13:20 "god is not limited in power" ? does that mean god can make 2+2=5 ?

[@AtlFalcon11]

I do believe when someone says that God has infinite power, they refer to him being able to do anything that is actually possible, not impossible. It's like the question, "does God have the power to create something so heavy that he can't lift it?" That's a self contradiction. God works within his own laws of logic, physics, etc. Also, if we go down the 2+2=5 route, someone smarter than me could give you a great argument about how numbers don't really exist. God made 2+2= 4 so why would he change it? Or did we make 2+2=4 because numbers are really just abstract concepts and we can do anything we'd like with them as long as we believe it to be true?

[@grayman7208]

19:00 the "classical view" states that the sun orbits the earth.

[@grayman7208]

26:15 jesus certainly did not believe that. "be ye perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect."

[@kentskoien7583]

The name mormon was put upon us by our enemies during the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints in a derogatory meaning.. It would not be rude if you called us Latter Day Saints , and we would appreciate that. Just to clear up the mis-understanding. The LDS Church is the one and only true Church on the earth as its name tells you. So we don't need to be on any other channels. We should spend our time more wisely than that.

[@magitekarms60]

great video! love your channel.

[@HaleStorm49]

My channel loves you.

[@Jerome616]

Just ignoring the council of Jerusalem I see. 😅 Even the apostles like Paul were concerned with what is and is not a Christian. There’s no way you can condemn the latter church for the very same behavior the Apostles engaged in.

[@HaleStorm49]

@@Jerome616 Pretending a council of Apostles is equivalent to a council of a state sanctioned leader (Emperor Constantine) is like pretending a trans woman is a woman. I'm not ignoring it, I'm pointing out the inevitable result of substituting imitations for the real thing.

[@Jerome616]

@@HaleStorm49 who said anything about equivalent? I said same behavior. The church must come together and decide difficult questions, just like the early church. If they were right to do so, then how is the later church wrong to do so?

[@HaleStorm49]

@@Jerome616 Who are you arguing with then? No one said they were wrong to try.

[@Jerome616]

@@HaleStorm49 your claim is that the councils were a aberration or unfair development of early church. Am I wrong?

[@HaleStorm49]

@@Jerome616 Timestamp my claim and we'll see.

[@chuckkv]

It's funny because Jacob's big schtick on his channel is, who's a real Mormon and who's not. He's always calling Mormons out who he thinks are "doing it wrong". Simultaneously he sooo desperately wants Mormons to be seen as Christians by other Christians, just "a little weird and different" Christians. The irony is lost on him.

[@HaleStorm49]

Not sure about any of that but in this culture its not flattering to be seen "as christians" by other Christians as they regress towards the mean.

[@danielmcwilliams5886]

This is a retarded take. He talks about what’s going on within the culture and applies scriptural understanding with doctrinal truths to modern day issues plaguing the west , including the church and bad faith actors

[@ijn2252]

​@@HaleStorm49I've heard the "not Christian" and "different Jesus" thing so much that I've almost started embracing it. My Jesus at bare minimum is kind to those that he disagreed with. So sure, I follow a different Jesus, I follow the Jesus of the Bible and I'm one of his Christians and I hope those persuaded to follow a different Jesus who approves of how they so often treat us will come to him and become biblical Christianity in the fullest sense.

[@HaleStorm49]

@@ijn2252 agreed it's underrated... And a double edged sword. _Different_ means one is better.