Is Trump's Trade War on China Good for America? A Soho Forum Debate

Stephen Moore and Gene Epstein debate whether or not President Trump's Chinese trade policy deserves broad public support.
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"President Trump's trade-related initiatives against China deserve broad public support."
That was the resolution of a public debate hosted by the Soho Forum in New York City on February 4, 2020. It featured Stephen Moore of the Heritage Foundation and Gene Epstein of the Soho Forum. Comedian Dave Smith moderated.
It was an Oxford-style debate, in which the audience votes on the resolution at the beginning and end of the event; the side that gains the most ground is victorious. Moore prevailed by convincing 21.51 percent of audience members to change their minds. Epstein convinced 13.98 percent.
Arguing for the affirmative was Stephen Moore, distinguished visiting fellow for the Project for Economic Growth at the Heritage Foundation. Moore is also a senior economic contributor for FreedomWorks and the founder of the Club for Growth.
Gene Epstein argued for the negative. Epstein, former economics editor of Barron's, is co-founder and director of the Soho Forum.
The Soho Forum, which is sponsored by the Reason Foundation, is a monthly debate series at the SubCulture Theater in Manhattan's East Village.
Produced by John Osterhoudt.
Photo: Brett Raney

[@wolflarson71]

Gene's condescending tone towards Steve during this debate was a real turn off. I feel like he had a good chance of winning but only convinced those who were predisposed towards his position. Next time ditch the snarky/patronizing attitude and you might win with audiences.

[@yoyartube]

Snarky tone is a substitute for factual counter responses. It's typical of people who don't have logical arguments. They resort to the emotional instead. It isn't just unappealing, it is dishonest.

[@brianbagnall3029]

The whole "bloviating ignoramus" slur he keeps repeating is for children and immature simpletons in the audience. Why disrespect someone (Trump) who is obviously smart in many ways. You may disagree with him, but that guy outsmarted the entire political/media establishment with half the resources and WON. And continues winning. Not a dumb man.

[@cc_tw]

It's a sign of TDS

[@MrWazzup987]

He's an ideologue

[@cedricpod]

i despair that form can triumph over content

[@antialiased]

Gene was intolerable in this "debate". I kept thinking I was listening to a toddler throwing a tantrum.

[@Nill757]

It wasn’t a debate, but a parade of fallacies and edicts from Gene, adhominems, etc. He even hauled out “shill” and tossed it. What a raving, pompous, fascist jackass.

[@michaelwallace9291]

Whenever someone gets into personal attacks and pretty insults it suggests they lack ground to stand on

[@Watcher4187]

Any time Epstein is in the actual debate I tend to turn it off within 15 minutes and downvote. He just flat out sucks in debates. He gets too worked up and acts too childish. Makes the entire SOHO forum look bad.

[@Pdrum2]

They both were yelling come on

[@DanHowardMtl]

It's TDS in action.

[@Caseylawton]

You guys should do a KZbin poll after a video posts to see how the internet viewers vote on the proposition

[@Chronically_ChiII]

Bump

[@JojitJohnson]

Yeah!

[@michaelwallace9291]

Yes!

[@bruhmoment8108]

They don't want to embarrass themselves by doing that.

[@cheezehao1129]

good idea, let's do it.

[@noblephoenix6151]

It's an easy argument to make. Free trade is good for economies and when goods don't cross borders, armies will. If you want peace and prosperity, you want free trade.

[@jeffersonianideal]

With Dave Smith as the moderator the audience is assured of no funny business.

[@jeffersonianideal]

@Mr Olonzo Glad you agree.

[@jeffersonianideal]

@@LegalesePodcast Don't be too tough on Dave. Humor just isn't his field. It would certainly help if, as a comedian, Dave were actually funny, but as libertarianism teaches, "Nobody owes you anything."

[@SawChaser]

@@jeffersonianideal Your condescending, snarky and patronizing tone speaks for yourself.

[@jeffersonianideal]

@@SawChaser No, it is actually a lighthearted, genteel and cordial way of expressing the astute view that Dave Smith is the Elayne Boosler the of his era. The unfunniest comic to have achieved relative notoriety. Next time, I will publish a more directly pointed remark for the benefit of those who are incapable of reading between the punchlines.

[@SawChaser]

@@jeffersonianideal patronizing: apparently kind or helpful but betraying a feeling of superiority; condescending. Easily Subsumable.

[@watchmanstate9212]

I feel like there was a missing argument here. The reason why tariffs and pushing trade out of China even if it's to another nation like Japan, Korea, or India would be preferable is a good thing is complicated but hear me out. The argument: Okay accepting that trade is essentially 2 people saying "you have something I want, here is what ill give you in return." and how is anyone getting in the middle of that a good thing? This is the essence of the "free trade is liberty" argument where free trade should be recognized as a right. Well even if it were recognized as a right the agreement is still contingent upon the understanding that both parties are being honest. That the offering is made with the understanding that the goods are legitimately obtained. Buying stolen goods would still be a rights violation of the original owner. The sale does not make the ownership of those goods just. Now the buyer, if they didn't know, is not to blame, but they still may not claim ownership of these goods once it is made known and would instead have to relinquish them to their owner and seek restitution from the salesman. Understanding this, we need to scale the concept larger. China is a human rights violating entity. Their goods are cheaper not because they are more efficient, not because they have access to resources we do not, not because they have more capacity to produce than we do but because they violate the rights of their citizens to produce those goods, to acquire the design's of those goods, to confiscate the land to build the factories to make those goods. Free trade with China fundamentally exports rights violations in exchange for cheap goods, and unlike the buyer in my hypothetical, we KNOW this is what is going on which makes us culpable so long as we enable them and incentivize them to continue these practices.

[@societalwisdom9930]

That was well put.

[@justinboggin9086]

Excellent post. I'll summarize and put into libertarian speak. Selling stolen goods is a violation of NAP. China abuses and steals from its own citizens. Thus you are participating in their NAP violation if you buy their goods.

[@CounselChuckle]

I agree with what you have written, however, my opinion is that despite the fact that in many cases China is de facto exporting items obtained through the "violation of rights" the state should not be involved. The purchaser/ consumer needs to be the one who decides not to trade with China. The state should not be the policeman in the transaction.

[@Doc-Holliday1851]

Great point about the WTO. I was listening to that dude thinking "He doesn't agree with economic actions taken by the US on behalf of the US because thats an overstep of government. but he'd gladly hand the situation over to an international beaurocracy? especially one that isn't guarunteed to favor the US?" I'm the other dude pointed that out

[@CalculationConsulting]

Unwatchable. Not even close to a serious discussion of the real issues.

[@michaelpisciarino5348]

2:13 Affirmative Opening 17:35 Rejection Opening 21:59 "Economic Harm From Tariffs keeps piling up" 25:23 Myths Justifying The Trade War 1. Dumping (Is it really bad China wants to sell us their goods at cheaper prices?) 28:38 2. Compliance/Un-Compliance with Trade Deals (China is compliant, America is not as compliant) 30:25 3. Intellectual Property Theft (It's not a big deal) 34:08 Rebuttals - America did not start this war - So far it has worked - A Tariff is just a tax, lets tax foreign goods more than domestic goods + Agreed on Dumping - We need Patent Laws, Protection of Ideas, (China claims to be Apple, when they are not) 40:12 Rebuttal - We are a powerful economy - China is not poaching our intellectual property - The Trade Deal is not going to work up, China can't ratch up - WSJ article is right, Tariffs hurt Americans 45:28 Questions 47:58 Pride And Shame 50:40 Lol 55:44 Questions from the audience 58:17 2.5% Growth Rate (Better than Obama and/or Still Not Good Enough?) 1:00:00 Free Markets 1:03:00 Is It A Tax Cut if you Don't Cut Spending? A Trade Deficit, bad good or neither? 1:07:08 TPP, America Is The Bully - Were running a trade deficit - We are engaging in trade deal abuses of the WTO 1:12:37 - China has not opened up their markets - Americans can buy stuff from China if they want to or not 1:15:31 - Ethics (do I want to buy from a company who uses slave labor? Should I buy from a Totalitarian State) 1:17:44 Closing Statement (Steve) 1:19:27 Closing Statement (Gene)

[@321peted]

We need you to post this for every debate!

[@societalwisdom9930]

Thank you

[@DanielBarron45]

These top down minutes are theft.

[@jeffersonianideal]

50:19 The heated and petulant exchange is uncharacteristic of both debate participants and seemed staged.

[@Pdrum2]

It got heated at the end, I was surprised.

[@23wtb]

Libertarians really need to stop trotting out "non-aggression" for every argument--it's very close to the Leftist "speech is violence" precept. The terms "war," and "aggression" are metaphorical when used in a discussion about trade policy, not literal. A person shouldn't try to confuse the metaphorical and the literal to make a philosophical point fit where it doesn't belong.

[@Nill757]

William Burr Freedman in fact specifically rejected the “no” aggression version of libertarianism. Minimum aggression, not none, because Freedman was an adult.

[@Pdrum2]

Not even close at all

[@Pdrum2]

​@@Nill757 That's because he was a utilitarian, and not consistent as opposed to the natural law/natural rights position which goes back deep in history, and is grounded on human nature.

[@23wtb]

Regardless, framing the assertion of one's own position in a negotiation as "aggression," is a completely inappropriate way of (mis-)using that idea.

[@Pdrum2]

​@@23wtb He's referring to tarrifs, it's like "negotiating" on how much to tax their own citizens, it's just silly. You treat it like it's a business transaction. And no he's not confusing metaphorical with literal.

[@jeffersonianideal]

59:33 Next SOHO forum debate: Is Dave Smith a comedian?

[@druoleary]

Gene's whole argument is that Trump is ignorant, which he didn't prove. And reading editorials about probabilities which have been proved wrong isn't convincing.

[@Nill757]

Drole Yes, called names, he didn’t argue. That is, he “bloviated”.

[@Pdrum2]

He did prove his ignorance, you simply don't understand his argument.

[@Nill757]

Pdrum2 Perhaps, but Gene stating Trump is “ignorant” is neither an argument nor specific.

[@jiaxiangchen6743]

Trump is not ignorant at all. His most oustanding quality is humor. He makes people laugh, including his junior clone Boris of UK at the G7. Bozo the Buffoon 2020 Make America Gaga Again.

[@shan3671]

Why does a libertarian debate need a moderator?

[@mikebetts2046]

Good catch!

[@anandaji4075]

Sure Gene, we will talk free trade when the CCP adopts Libertarianism!...lol

[@homewall744]

You don't have to. If they want to give us a price discount, smart people would take it.

[@Pdrum2]

So according to you logic no free trade until the other has free trade, got it.

[@anandaji4075]

@@Pdrum2 Fred Block: The Tenacity of the Free Market Ideology kzbin.info/www/bejne/h6iXfmuqZsiogNE

[@hanamlchl]

@@Pdrum2 So if China imposes tariffs on American goods, and America declines to reciprocate, what happens over time? All other things being equal, at a national level, industries migrate to get away from the tariffs.

[@IntrinsicNRJ]

Can we get podcast highlight style clips? I think the reward will outweigh the input required.

[@JB12JB]

My business has suffered because of tariffs. I wish I didn't have to import from a communists country, but their factories are eager to do business with small businesses with low minimum quantity orders. You can find any type of factory in China. So it's not like I can get American companies to manufacture my products. There simply isn't any. Believe me. I've searched and hired sourcing consultants. It's even difficult to find Latin American, European, other Asian countries to produce what China is capable of. I wish tariffs only applied to large corporations and businesses. They can afford to pay or pass on the tariffs. I own a small product brand and we mainly sell on Amazon, so it's a tough competitive marketplace... Just expressing my experience.

[@expendable4h002]

You cant find a CMO in the USA?

[@cc_tw]

Libertarian principles are too idealistic for the real world, but while arguing for global free trade, Libertarians should also seek to reduce regulations that handicap their own country's ability to compete. When we brought China into the WTO and simultaneously kept our or regulations, it favored Chinese manufacturing so much that it caused these industries to completely collapse in other countries. Now we just argue for free trade with China because it's cheaper and often the only option. We need to realize this is NOT the desired outcome of Libertarianism.

[@JB12JB]

@@expendable4h002 I'm not sure what you are asking.

[@expendable4h002]

@@JB12JB A Contract Manufacturer Organization... There are plenty of them. I wish you best of luck finding one.

[@JB12JB]

@@expendable4h002 I came in contact with one Factory for a specific product but they cannot meet my specifications for that product that is already in the market. for our other products, pretty much the same and other factories that just won't respond to our request if they can meet our specifications.

[@brianbagnall3029]

"We do ask that you keep them as questions and not life stories." Why is it so many millennials think their moment at the mike is all about themselves?

[@cedricpod]

this narcissism is universal to all generations

[@cedricpod]

give each *questioner/speecher* 60 seconds max .... then cut the mike

[@NSO82]

The thumbnail looks like a freestyle battle between two really old-school guys!

Sorry, Mr. Moore. I support neither protectionism nor intellectual property, so your argument is not selling me on Trumpian trade wars.

[@bogiepull3r]

The trade war results for America overshadow this "debate" with prosperity.

[@rust86]

I watched this already knowing that Gene loses and,.... i thought it was gonna be subtle but it was not...

[@rust86]

@madwtube Gene was almost throwing a tincture tantrum.. Steve was more of a sales man.. the facts matter less.. the emotions won the debate was my point

[@rust86]

@madwtube if he kept the demeanor he had in the closing arguments for the whole time i think he would have won the thing hands down.

[@l0g1cseer47]

Nice one!

[@mikebetts2046]

The anti tariff position: if you steal something from someone that is doing well, then no big deal.

[@merc9nine]

This didn't age well

[@JeffryJohnston]

Couldn't finish this debate due to Gene's constant tantrums. I love these debates, but can you restrict him to moderating only?

[@adamszman]

Gene tends to personalize every debate and make it about defeating the other debater personally, rather than just keeping the debate to the issue and ideas at hand. He should impose a rule on himself to not refer to the other debater by name or make it about them, and instead just stick to the issues and policies at hand.

[@biffhenderson1144]

You have two choices. 1. A low cost product and NO JOB to buy the product because all jobs related to the product have been moved to China. 2. Moderate cost product and a job with which to buy the product because the product is made in USA. The best choice is #2. Unfortunately, people are not very smart. They want cheap products no matter the destructive side effects. They don't care that they are putting USA people out of work. Also keep in mind that working people pay taxes and contribute to society. Unemployed people take money from you through taxes to live. Free trade with modernized countries where the cost of living is equivalent to USA is neutral and good for both countries. Free trade with countries where their cost of living is higher than USA is good for USA as it creates USA jobs. Free trade with countries with a lower cost of living that USA is undesirable as it costs USA jobs. Like water, money will flow from the highest to the lowest until both are even. In other words, the economy of USA will descend and the economy of poor countries will rise until both are even. This is bad for USA and good for the poor country. Its not rocket science. It is pretty simple. Unfortunately, it is never presented to the people in simple terms. It is most often presented as "Not fair!!!"

[@hanamlchl]

@madwtube If everything is made elsewhere, what wealth do you have to buy anything? See Africa. See the Middle East. They have to import literally everything, their governments have to put their citizens on the dole because there are literally no jobs.

[@hanamlchl]

@madwtube "Nuh uh". Good rebuttal. See Iran protests over prices. Tell them to get better jobs. I'll wait.

[@hanamlchl]

@madwtube You're clearly not willing to discuss in good faith, the name calling is just your attempt to deflect. If you make nothing, what do you have to buy anything with?

[@hanamlchl]

@madwtube Then stop replying since you clearly can't address my points.

[@PierreAllencards]

Yikes. Gene looked like a crazy person. Incoherent, fact less, and outlandish arguments...

[@Pdrum2]

What was incoherent?

[@PierreAllencards]

Pdrum2 his argument that China doesn’t steal intellectual property and follows WTO guidelines.

[@Pdrum2]

@@PierreAllencards His argument is that you can't actually "steal" ideas, it's the whole notion the is ridiculous. HIs arguments were not "incoherent"

[@hanamlchl]

@@Pdrum2 So slapping fake Louis Viton and Apple logos on products and stores doesn't constitute theft according to you? The entire purpose of the logo is a guarantee of quality for the consumer.

[@Pdrum2]

@@hanamlchl Those are trademarks, I'm talking about patents. That would amount to basically fraud.

[@matubalfaisal2600]

I wish Steve watch this video in December 2020😂😂😂😂

[@manolokonosko2868]

Both men had valid and solid points, however, once again, it is the DELIVERY of the message that counts more than the content.

[@Xerathiel]

Different question. Did any of them actually do anything effective?

[@Hello.Sailor]

Great debate, gotta side with Moore though. Rules are only effective if they apply to all involved equally.

[@cydra-evolution5623]

I agree with Steve.

[@josephsmith2259]

I like Gene but this was a bad argument from him. Too much on rights and not enough on the substance of the policy. There wasn't much in regards to farmers losing to Brazil because of trade wars or raw materials from China that affect US manufacturing.

[@Plain1nsane]

I don't even have to comment anything, Steve already said it.

[@WECantThink]

The EU was supposed to pay.

[@jeffersonianideal]

Following decades of believing otherwise, it took someone as inarticulate, reactionary, and unprincipled as Donald Trump to finally sway economist Stephen Moore's astute mind on the issue of free trade. What are the odds?

[@Pdrum2]

I suspect the only reason he lost is because the audience is full of Trump supporters, who've already decided what they their position is going to be, not because his arguments are not stronger and more persuasive.

[@jeffersonianideal]

@@Pdrum2 Could be. Is there data on the political makeup of the voting audience?

[@heidivanloosbroek8095]

Or... it could be that Steve’s astute mind woke up to the VERY REAL threat Totalitarian Communist China poses to our nation’s future and to our personal freedoms if the U.S. doesn’t take dramatic steps concerning China. Unlike people such as Gene, the CCP knows all to well that there is more to being - and remaining - “at the top” than short-sighted, quick-earning investments. It’s time to wake up and realize that China isn’t just planning long-term, they are playing for keeps using covert tactical warfare.

[@jeffersonianideal]

@@heidivanloosbroek8095 Could be, but since concepts about economic protectionism have been around for many decades, the likelihood is that other factors are responsible.

[@heidivanloosbroek8095]

@jeffersonianideal I strongly disagree. You make that statement but provide no proof. Whereas, the proof that China is a very real threat is staring us straight in the face. If you haven’t done a deep dive into China’s long-term global goals I highly recommend you do. If that doesn’t change your mind about the current and future threats China poses to the United States, our freedoms, and human rights in general, than you and I are on very different pages.

[@DanHowardMtl]

The answer is that in the long term - YES. In the short term - maybe.

[@jonathanjollimore7156]

Helping the China economy grow and it's people have better standard of living has bin good for world peace but you can trust them as far as you can throw mainland China

[@oryoruk]

BRING BACK DAVE SMITH’S OPENING ACT!!!!

[@fireworks786]

When you hear something you don't like. That something usually is closer to be true.

[@hanamlchl]

Gene did not like the fact that it's a big bad world and other nations don't play by Libertarian rules.

[@RandomGits]

Gene's Argument: Orange Man Bad

[@homewall744]

So, you prefer to pay more for imports because you think more taxes is good economics. Every dollar they get from us, they buy something else using that dollar. Learn about trade. Are talking about free trade or market protection? Free trade is always good for people overall, but not necessarily for your industry if others can do it better/faster/cheaper. Why not negotiate these small enhancements without going into a trade war, using tax dollars to pay off those harmed by the trade war, and all those who bought imports and paid more taxes? The tariffs weren't imposed on China, but on Americans who import from China. Japan shift manufacturing to Korea, then China, and now Vietnam, etc. without trade wars. China is doing the same because it's starting to get expensive to manufacture in China.

[@jiaxiangchen6743]

Home Wall, I agree. When you trade, both benefit. What can I do with all the soya beans I produce so efficiently and cheaply. I trade them to by a washing machine (which I cannot make cheaply) to make life easier for mu housekeeper.

[@expendable4h002]

I really like Gene but I disagree with him. I believe that economically he is correct but trade with China is more than just economics. There are social cost and national security threats that need to be considered. I also believe that the Corona Virus was manufactured so that China would not have to pay $50B in agriculture goods in the phase 1 deal.

[@Nill757]

Expendable4 H00 What exactly do you find to like about his behavior or commentary here?

[@expendable4h002]

@@Nill757 I think Gene is fundamentally correct regarding free trade and using tariffs is bad option. But the tariffs are a small price to pay when the overall situation trade situation exceeds economics. We do not have free trade. Because our imports are facing protectionist policies from all nation states. Its more than just economics and trade, its national security and a massive social cost to communities that are gutted by outsourcing. This is why socialism is rising.

[@hanamlchl]

@@expendable4h002 _"fundamentally correct regarding free trade and using tariffs is bad option. But...Because our imports are facing protectionist policies from all nation states."_ You acknowledge that tariffs are applied globally, do you think Gene would admit that submitting to unilateral tariffs against you on grounds of principle would be as detrimental in the long term?

[@expendable4h002]

hanamlchl No.

[@jiaxiangchen6743]

Did the great American biochemist manufacture the coronavirus? Big Pharma will be rich with their anti corona disease vaccines. Just imagine, China will have to pay through its nose to pay for the vaccines.

[@f1rstprinciple]

FAIR and Free trade, not just Free trade

[@Chronically_ChiII]

Jeez, Gene sure held an amazing spectacle, too bad that it was at the cost of the debate. Lol, he kinda acted like Trump on stage. 🤫

[@startek119]

If not from an economic standpoint trumps trade war is definitely good from a security standpoint

[@noblephoenix6151]

Antagonizing other countries through heavy tariffs and sanctions is good for security? Someone one said something like "when goods can't cross borders, armies will"

[@jiaxiangchen6743]

James Clune, Too many Mercedes Benzes will pollute the air and contribute to global warming, surely not good for our security. Samsung is bad for our security, the South Koreans can eavesdrop on our leaders, just as we eavesdrop on our friend and ally Angela Merkel. Huawei, doubly dangerous, If every American use Huawei, how can NSA spy on them?

[@Science-ev1he]

They both were talking too fast and stumbling.

[@cedricpod]

give each questioner 60 seconds to speak ( period )

[@adamgibson473]

7:19 "...If they cant trade with us ...they catch pnomonia " knock on wood.

[@CycleGirl-77]

Gene lost the debate at 21:30 . The phrase “bloviating idiot” made it clear objective standards and facts would be cast aside in favor of personal attacks. Disappointing. I suggest that Gene should not be part of any debates involving president Trump as he has demonstrated an inability to keep the discussion professional and courteous.

[@cedricpod]

i do not agree that IP is to be protected the same as physical property ( including a personal ownership of your body )

[@Nill757]

99guspuppet See, it doesn’t matter that you don’t agree about IP. The US does count IP as property. Why does that matter? Because it is the job of the state to protect property, one of its few legit jobs. Without that protection, I can take all your property and make you my slave. There are no market economics without the nation state to provide rule of law.

[@cedricpod]

i don’t use US law to define my moral principles

[@Nill757]

madwtube My point is not about IP per se. Rather, I’m saying there is no practical private property of any kind without the rule of law to protect it. Unless I’m living on some artificial sea island, I don’t get to pick and choose that my property X is protected, and that your property Y is in fact available to anyone who can take it.

[@Nill757]

99guspuppet Granted, but obeying the law which also protects your property is also based in morality. Contending that the government does wrong things with tax dollars, for example, is not a morally legitimate excuse to skate on paying taxes. Greece, where nobody pays taxes is corrupt, not a moral paragon.

[@cedricpod]

madwtube ..... IP is a wonderfully complex subject

[@ljs444]

I guess Obama forgot that he said Donald Trump would have to have a magical wand to create jobs in America. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eXzTpKJpq82Nqtk

[@AngelAllis]

WOW, I just felt the petty behavior of Gene Epstein was terrible. He totally lost any favorable points with the continuous belittling on a personal front.

[@kimderr8197]

French President Emmanuel Macron on Wednesday announced that a 'limited lockdown' will be imposed across the nation to curb the spread of coronavirus disease (Covid-19.Y’all should develop an online income means and focus more on bitcoin. I have been into bitcoin for a while now.

[@grahamstephan6344]

French President Emmanuel Macron on Wednesday announced that a 'limited lockdown' will be imposed across the nation to curb the spread of coronavirus disease (Covid-19.Y’all should develop an online income means and focus more on bitcoin. I have been into bitcoin for a while now.

[@CarrotCakeMake]

IP isn't property, it is a monopoly on production, and it is an anachronism that needs to die.

[@mikebetts2046]

Show us a country that innovates more than the US and does not respect IP. You are free to produce the product you invented. You are not free to steal someone else's idea and then produce that.

[@CarrotCakeMake]

​@@mikebetts2046 There is no country in the western tradition that doesn't have production monopoly laws. So that is why the example doesn't exist and you know it. Also, products are never the result of a single idea. They are a minor improvement or composition of existing ideas. So the very idea of a single person inventing something is a myth. Also you can't steal something defined by IP, because those things aren't property but rather the way in which property is used. In other words, monopoly. Also your characterization of IP is wrong. You are *not* free to produce something you "invented" (sic), because someone else might have "invented" it 5 seconds sooner.

[@jiaxiangchen6743]

Then China will steal American IP. They will steal our blueprint for the wall meant for Humpty Dumpty to a new Great Wall of China. As it is, they have already stolen our IP for how else could they build their Great Wall, the one they brag is the only man-made structure visible to the naked eye from outer space or from the moon.

[@mikebetts2046]

@@CarrotCakeMake " no country in the western tradition that doesn't have production monopoly laws" Kind of answers the question as to why it is Western countries that innovate the most. "products are never the result of a single idea". Sure, some things at some point become community property (use of fire?). But when a person invents one thing and needs to use another patented item in the final product, royalties are paid. So system integrity is maintained. "You are not free to produce something you "invented" (sic), because someone else might have "invented" it 5 seconds sooner." That's a bit of a silly argument. Simultaneous invention is not happening all the time. Of course some notable instances. People that never innovate probably have a hard time sympathizing with the idea of theft of IP. Show less

[@CarrotCakeMake]

@@mikebetts2046 > " no country in the western tradition that doesn't have production monopoly laws" Kind of answers the question as to why it is Western countries that innovate the most. You could say that same thing about high taxes, government run schools, imperialism, industry subsidies, and every other awful thing that is common in Western countries. And you'd be just as wrong. The reason the West is so innovative is that we have relatively higher amounts of respect for property and equal rights. Both of which are contradicted by IP law. As far as the economic impact of IP law, you should stop believing the propaganda and actually educate yourself. Start with "Against Intellectual Monopoly", it is a free book. Even economic studies that were initially favorable to IP law found they do overwhelming economic damage. "If not for IP law, we'd have flying cars by now" is a major understatement. > But when a person invents one thing and needs to use another patented item in the final product, royalties are paid. Lie. First, the law does not require a monopoly holder to allow for royalties, they can just shut down production if they want for any reason. Second, a person might not have royalty money b/c they might be (often is) an intelligent researcher who figured things out on his own. Third, developers often use sub optimal solutions or abandon research altogether rather than get tied down by unearned royalties. Learn what a "clean room" is, it should horrify you. > "You are not free to produce something you "invented" (sic), because someone else might have "invented" it 5 seconds sooner." That's a bit of a silly argument. Simultaneous invention is not happening all the time. Of course some notable instances. At this point I am used to saying "hey, this law does something awful to a person" and hearing socialists respond with "yeah, but not very often so it is ok". I don't know how to fix you people. But it is true that the presence of IP law reduces the amount of simultaneous development due to fears of just this. That isn't a good thing. > People that never innovate probably have a hard time sympathizing with the idea of theft of IP. Only someone cut-off from the intelligent part of a field end can up deluding himself into thinking his innovation is somehow unique or uniquely discoverable. Every patent is a crime against the customers who have to pay your inflated prices, and a crime against everyone who is enough smarter than you to make it better, cheaper, more easily, and a crime against everyone who actually love the field they study and wants to speak and innovate freely in it.

[@akoben]

America has leverage over Iraq that's why she invaded in 2003. How's that leverage working out?

[@SusanPDavis]

Previous month I managed to withdraw my first five figure wage ever!!! I've been working for this company over the web for twenty four months now and I never been happier... They are paying me $95 per hour, and the most desirable thing about it is that I am not really that tech-savvy, they only asked for standard understanding of internet and simple typing skill...The best thing about this work is that I have more free time with my kids. I am able to devote quality time with my friends and family and take care of my children and also going on family holiday together with them very routinely. Don't avoid this opportunity and make sure to respond rapidly. This is what I do... *foryou49­.­c­o­m*

[@jiaxiangchen6743]

America has leverage over Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Korea. Vietname, Yemen and more. Additionally Iraq has weapons of mass destruction same as American and Israel.

[@cfmcelderry]

TDS makes me sad

[@robinfielding9506]

But when you walk into a store most everything you need is made in China. Try to buy Amrican. Because of this I have tried to buy Amrican when ever I can. I like the level playing field. Corporate interest in just money moving all our shit to China was crippled the working class in our country. I whent to school for electronics moved to China school was useless. This was one of most jobs moving out of our country leaving jobless people. Causing more dependents on government. One part of government loves this cause dependents makes votes and more control. Sad thing is go buy Craftsman tools and they turned China. Turn to different tool and now it's China. How do you get away from China? It's our corporate that runs to China. And causes dependents on government.

[@donotlike4anonymus594]

my problem with Gene's argument is the ignorance in regard to china... The idea that free trade exists in china is simply wrong because forced labor in china doesn't simply exist but it's still fairly common.. Personally I'm all for free trade but in china all major industries are controlled and subsidized and... By the ccp... It's one thing to trade with individuals and another with state controlled countries... Not to mention how authoritarian china is... We can argue about the non aggression and.... And we can argue should the us be the world's poli8ce.. And how ethical it is and... Those are important philosophical questions... But we can surely all agree that the us is much more liberal and open then china... And while people like me personally do boycott china... Most people are ignorant of what's going on... I don't like the idea of giving the Government more power... But one of the legitimate purposes of Government is to protect it's citizen.... (and the people of the world in general...) war is ugly but if the us can liberalize china in the long run by fighting it economically....... Not to mention btw that china is a hostile nation.... The ccp works hard to undermine hack steal hurt the us... Infiltrating the Government subsidizing failing companies.. Loosing millions all to hurt American business and the us economy... Trying to destroy the dollar..... China's been slowly fighting the us for years... Long before trump.... I do suggest u do some research people....

[@Pdrum2]

China's free trade zone is more economically free than it is here.

[@donotlike4anonymus594]

@@Pdrum2 sure... on paper.. but go a head and live there and we'll see... Not to mention all the technology they steal and.. They keep stealing tech and make state subsidized companies to compete with u..

[@hanamlchl]

@@Pdrum2 Sure they are. They're so free Google had to pull out because "someone" physically stole their servers. Some webstreaming girl got locked up because she sang the national anthem in a "disrespectful manner" and lost her ability to stream. Very free.

[@jiaxiangchen6743]

donotlike 4 anonymus I guess you are totally ignorant about China. You never been there, right? The well may be a comfortable place. Don't leave it.

[@donotlike4anonymus594]

@@jiaxiangchen6743 have you... because i know a number of people who did visit china... (roughly 5 years a go.. so to be fair..)but i know a lot about Chinese culture and society... (i'd also suggest you watch sserpentzd laowhy86 China uncensored and..... great KZbin channels... i'd also suggest you read a couple of books... like silent war... It's pretty interesting how China's been fighting and undermining the us... Not to mention... oh u know real vision finance have a few really nice pieces on China's economy... Don't be ignorant kiddo... study what you can... China is about to become a super power... it's a shame so many people are so ignorant about what's going on inside... everything is based around gwanshi (corruption and connections basically..) Forced labor still very much exists... often not in the way you'd think but.... Oh and the ip theft s very well known... what they do is when they can't hack you/... they open a joined venture with you(your company..). inside of china and it has to be at least half Chinese.. (well usually more..) then the Chinese you hire study you tech and open a competing company... And btw.. all Chinese companies are subsidize by the ccp be it by dirt cheep electricity or shipping costs or...... A specially if the company competes with a western one... then the ccp would subsidize it to compete you out of market... like a good old monopoly As again.... lots of not very free things china does... So what's your argument.. and please do some minimal reading about china... Don't let ignorance dominate..

[@DVHeld]

What a sellout that Stephen

[@hackupboulders]

...

[@Doc-Holliday1851]

The libertarian understanding of theft is absolutely bonkers. Taxation is theft, because apparently the social contract doesn't exist. But actual intellectual property theft isn't theft because we see second hand benefits from that theft? LIKE???

[@davidlewis6728]

the "social contract" that supposedly justifies taxation is involuntary, and thus invalid. you make the same kind of "contract" when you are mugged at gunpoint, the only difference being that the state will give you someone else's half-eaten lollipop if you comply. as for intellectual property, it is a divisive issue, but i personally don't respect any form of monopolization, especially on innovation. the benefit you get for innovation is the novelty and sudden access to an as-of-yet untapped demand, the idea that you own any profits made from that idea is ridiculous, and the fact that it is virtually impossible to tell who came up with the idea in the first place makes it impractical as well. if someone discovered a new element, do they have the right to patent it, making it illegal for anyone else to use it? what if someone else stumbles upon it accidentally somewhere else? how do you enforce such a law? you might think this is an absurd comparison, but property is a philosophical concept, basically nothing more than a pattern that can be applied to anything that fits it's description. it requires the same laws, no matter how it is applied. i hope this helped a bit.

[@hanamlchl]

@@davidlewis6728 _" the idea that you own any profits made from that idea is ridiculous"_ ...so what is the incentive to make new music, novels, pharmaceuticals, computer programs? If someone else can simply steal and reproduce it for their own profit?

[@davidlewis6728]

@@hanamlchl people will buy the old stuff at the same rate and price as the new stuff, and people are incapable of deciding who did something better, or first, and using that to influence their decisions. lastly, if there is not a right against the use of an idea someone else came up with first, we might as well assume everyone immediately knows everything about it, and has all the resources required to make it. if someone else has the same strategy as me, what is the point in coming up with new strategies?

[@hanamlchl]

@@davidlewis6728 _"people will buy the old stuff at the same rate and price as the new stuff"_ No, they won't. If I'm an established business with a larger market reach, I just take your "idea" and market it better. You make nothing.

[@davidlewis6728]

@@hanamlchl reread my comment. it is sarcastic, and it addresses your point. also, you only responded to one of my sarcastic arguments? not sure how i feel about that, but ok.

[@marcov7256]

Epstein: America Bad, America is Bad, Bad America, America Bad, …….!!! Moore: We need to stand up for the USA, and try to find a balance. Which one is more convincing?

[@josiahcambies5199]

America is bad look at the middle east

[@hanamlchl]

@@josiahcambies5199 Don't worry, America will go back to isolationism and when we next turn around there'll be another World War for us to stop. Ho hum.

[@wolfgangk2824]

Is ruling the world good for America??

[@wolfgangk2824]

@madwtube But the US is ruling the world with 1000 military bases in 130 countries, with trade wars and boycotts, with a military budget as high as the next 7 countries together, and with the Dollar as world currency

[@audi_steve8363]

madwtube how is that not ruling the world? Lol anyone oppose the dollar gets killed. Anyone oppose the military gets labeled a terrorist. 😂

[@jiaxiangchen6743]

@@wolfgangk2824 This last I heard, US had 800 military bases worldwide and I thought it was astounding. But 1000? No wonder US is deeply ind debt they even have to borrow to pay interest on existing debt. How long can this spiral go on? I think the conclusion is ineluctible - the American Empire will collapse as did the Roman Empire. The question is when.

[@wolfgangk2824]

@@jiaxiangchen6743 The good news is that the whole world wants Dollars, so the US can keep printing. And with the interest rate at Zero there is nothing to stop it www.globalresearch.ca/the-worldwide-network-of-us-military-bases-2/5564

[@josiahcambies5199]

Freedom solves almost everything trump would be great if he lived by this.

[@godpilledzoomer7245]

THE INFO MAN The free market destroyed middle America. Economic nationalism now. The

[@bruhmoment8108]

Thumbnail: Chad Nationalist vs Virgin Neoliberal

[@benwhite8863]

Is this Uncle Bernie from one of the Avengers timelines?

[@jiaxiangchen6743]

No, Bernie is 2020.

[@coachwilson5967]

Who are these clowns and the 10 friends that are in the audience watching?

[@bart234465]

Two old dudes yelling at each other

[@akoben]

Protectionism made Cuba prosperous

[@adamhaynes9771]

I am from Pennsylvania. And I think Trump's trade war is a good thing

[@ronpaulrevered]

You think incorrectly.

[@adamhaynes9771]

@@ronpaulrevered You think incorrectly.. see how easy that was.

[@ronpaulrevered]

@@adamhaynes9771 Touché

[@i_am_thebatman]

After the China Deal how is this even a discussion ?

[@i_am_thebatman]

madwtube The China deal put 250 billion into our economy. It was amazing. That is a fact. Facts don’t care about your feelings.

[@adamhaynes9771]

@madwtube saying 'goddamn' makes your argument so much more powerful

[@i_am_thebatman]

madwtube It’s going to put $250 Billion into our economy . You must have missed the memo. This has already been agreed to. www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/01/15/what-is-in-us-china-trade-deal-099399

[@getfreemazes]

thanks for this debate between two rich globalists

[@pkz420]

Mr. Moore: 1- Free trade is a horrible thing for the middle class, unless it is done under equal terms. Free trade with any nation that provides very low wage workers, does result in greater profits for the wealthy, but it harms everyone else. Free-trade is a bad thing. It's you that doesn't understand. Those workers understand very well where their jobs went, and why wages are dropping. 2 - Just because a planned economy has not yet worked, doesn't mean it can't. Dismissing the idea like that is foolish. If China pulls it off, they will become an unstoppable world power. A modern war of attrition will be won by factories. China is already better equipped than the west. If they don't destroy them selves in the pursuit of a command economy, they will emerge as untouchables.

[@pkz420]

@madwtube Do you think you've made a point? Do you even have a point? Are you unable you make any point, but unable to resist your emotional desire to lash out at ideas that are different?

[@Dan16673]

Lol just because rape hasnt been moral doesnt mean it cant be. You have bad ideas sir

[@pkz420]

@Thomas Mondeaux 90% of your comment is an expression of your emotions and attempts at personal insults. You discredit yourself, without me needing to do anything. I will respond to the only point you attempted (but failed to back up). Good for the middle class? Tell that to the Canadian manufacturing industry. Oh, you can't, it doesn't exist in significant amounts anymore. Where has it helped the middle class? ... So silent now ...

[@pkz420]

@@Dan16673 You think those ideas are equatable? If so you've just demonstrated which one of us is having difficult with logic. That laughter you hear, they're not laughing with you. They're laughing at you.

[@pkz420]

@Thomas Mondeaux I missed the double reply when I responded to the other comment. This one is not much better. Less emotion, but still nothing based on anything factual. Just your unfounded desires. You said it has been tried, and failed, so it wont work (paraphrase). That is a really flawed idea. I hope you don't need me to spell it out, but just in case: Everything fails, until it doesn't. For thousands of years, thousands of people tried to create heavier than air flight, and failed That's why we still can't fly?. Imagine if your flawed thinking was correct.

[@eastonezra2103]

French President Emmanuel Macron on Wednesday announced that a 'limited lockdown' will be imposed across the nation to curb the spread of coronavirus disease (Covid-19.Y’all should develop an online income means and focus more on bitcoin. I have been into bitcoin for a while now.