Is Warhammer Underworlds getting CANCELLED?!

[@eggiwegs]

My understanding it was all hands on deck for AOS 4, and when that’s off and running it will be back to business as usual

[@AgentsofSigmar]

No eggiwegs! Your logic is not welcome here 😄.

[@eggiwegs]

@@AgentsofSigmar Hahaaa! But you’ve forgotten, it’s all hands on deck, and our cannons are locked and loaded!! Aim for their tinfoil hats men!!!

[@AgentsofSigmar]

That's fine. It's Pete who wears those!

[@mr.e.8292]

Keep in mind that when AoS 3 dropped Harrowdeep wasn't announced until the 16th September

[@AgentsofSigmar]

That is true but we got warbands released in the interim still

[@mr.e.8292]

@@AgentsofSigmar Huh, I had somehow overlooked the lack of Wintermaw warbands. Very true and very concerning

[@jongrantminiatures]

They better not cancel it. Best game.

[@walkerdarin2003]

That’s why they’ll kill it lol. I love it therefore it’s done.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

if you love something let it... die quietly...? 😄

[@Nexagon42]

Yes! This is exactly the kind of sensationalism I'm looking for on KZbin 😂 On the topic: GW would be shooting their own foot cancelling this successful top-of-the-funnel game!

[@AgentsofSigmar]

We think so, but they’re the only ones with the numbers who can see what’s selling best I guess 🤷‍♂️

[@stevenray8737]

Given the popularity of Underworlds I'm surprised we've not yet seen a 40K version.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

The only reason I think they haven't is that people will be moaning about ranges all the time!

[@tiredguy2753]

I think if GW is able to come up with a 40k underworlds version , I think it wil be like “printing money”.

[@zmindrick1]

I have over 20 cool warbands, many rival decks… I need no more warbands, new decks for old warbands and new rivals are enough for me 👍🤩👍

[@johanderyck6598]

My Underworlds gaming group has been talking about this a lot lately. I think: yes we’ll keep playing (and after a while finally go from Nemesis to Championship again), BUT: no new players means it will slowly fade out when people naturally stop in the group (becoming parent, moving,…).

[@AgentsofSigmar]

Yeah, that's the thing isn't it. People inevitably wander away and if there is nothing to draw in new players, you eventually run out.

[@Spinnerite]

So a few things to note, Underworlds has a new play format coming up in the next white dwarf so there’s an article coming there. Warhammer community has said to “watch this space for a divine release” for Underworlds. The stockist part, this is completely normal for things to be taken out when they’re sold out, I’m a stockist and this is completely normal to see things removed. The 5 things removed are older things and even the starter set has been flying off my shelves lately because of Sepulchral Guard being the best HO warband and the two very nice anti RWB boards. They do not recast for older stuff especially when it comes to things with cards. Skabbiks got a new run recently as that was out of stock for weeks and then available again, they wouldn’t redo Skabbiks if they thought it was on the way out.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

Some good points there. Interesting about Skabbiks

[@timunderbakke8756]

I’m honestly not that worried because everything else went silent. GW has given us no info on 40k for a long time - 6 months ago we got a roadmap leading to a “redacted” codex and just last week we got what that was. We don’t know when the next things will be, and for 40k that is extremely unusual. I’d keep playing underworlds regardless. It’s the only minis game I’ve been able to slot into a lunch with a coworker.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

I guess with 40k you know it’s a flagship game that’s never getting ditched at least

[@timunderbakke8756]

@@AgentsofSigmarthat’s true, but if they’re not communicating about their biggest profit center right now because they’re pushing skaventide that hard, I think it’s too soon to say anything against the other games

[@mattbruce475]

Thanks lads. Insightful as ever. I think Nemesis format has UW in the best spot it has ever been. It is a fantastic beer and pretzels game that suffers under the "ultimate competitive miniatures game" tag line. I have made enough mates that I think will continue to play it casually even after GW support fades. I have enough warbands to keep me painting for many years. :) The sadder thing will be when I only get to watch old content from you two. :)

[@polyfission2776]

No Underworld planned at the NOVA event. I think this speaks volume, unfortunately. As for me, I am sort of glad it is cooling off. It was getting difficult to keep up with all the new warbands and card packs. That'll give me time to paint them all (I am still working on shadespire and other early seasons stuff, LOL). I'll keep playing for years to come and you should too!

[@AgentsofSigmar]

We might but more likely something more shiny will come along.

[@jergoodman1987]

At this point, I'd be fine with slowing new warband releases if they focused on updating and releasing the old ones like in RotMC. Really want a Wurmspat rerelease

[@AgentsofSigmar]

Pete wants wurmspat to be good too 😄

[@Phalanx167]

So right now every GW games is kind of flying in the dark as we haven't had a preview show in months as GW keeps their focus on pushing AoS 4. I think part of this shift in focus is GW trying to rally after having some serious logistical delays that set back loads of releases (like KT and Warcry sets got delayed by entire seasons). Also, if it brings any comfort it leaked a a few months back that GW recently copy righted the name "Mosscairn" which is an Underworlfs name right there if I ever heard one. It does seem like a general lapse in communication right now as they try to handle production delays.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

Hard to tell if that’s an AOS or UW thing or unrelated, maybe warcry? Who knows, this is where it never comes to light again and they bought it just to screw with that other game using the name 😂

[@Phalanx167]

​@AgentsofSigmar True, they do love their compound naming conventions in AoS, but they usually do not go so far as to discreetly copyright them unless they are doing a whole product line with the name, which Mosscairn sounds too narrow for AoS to focus a season/campaign on, and I doubt Warcry would either since it still seems like they have one more year in the Gnarlwood in their system and then the setting usually tends to follow the AoS edition setting about a year later when it would get a new edition. Plus Mosscairn fits extra neatly in the Underworlds naming convention since being a Cairn it is a confined and enclosed space (Chasm, Vault, Fane, Spire, Grave, etc.), and has the typical spooky element to the name with cairn evoking the ever expanding curse of Shadespire). All that said it could well be that they secured the name originally with intentions of it as the next season of Underworlds (likely set in Ghyran) but they have made a sudden shift and just intend to leave the name fallow, who knows? I still strongly suspect Underworlds has a few sets in it left before they sundown it (especially because they are still heavily buoyed by the Warcry community snatching up them to play as Bladeborne since they are often so flavorful, flexible and powerful in the game).

[@christopherkruse1370]

I think taking the warbands out of AOS is to see how much the underworlds stuff sells to just underworlds players. It could be that AOS players buying warbands is the lions share of it sales. The lack of communication is because they are waiting to see how it plays out to decide if its to be canceled.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

Could be, but the lack of communication is definitely a big problem for the game

[@asmcelhinney]

Card printing costs is likely a massive reason why Underworlds seems to have gound to a halt. There'll be a finite budget for that resouce recently eaten by 40k index cards, 40k mission cards (twice over), AoS index cards, Aos Spearhead cards... Underworlds, Warcry and Spearhead are in a weird overlapping space as well. Plus Warcry recently had a metawatch article after a load of warbands were binned. It's very confusing. Underworlds may end up like Adeptus Titanicus, unofficially unsupported whilst a similar product takes its place.

[@Phalanx167]

It doesn't appear like those Warcry Warbands were binned though... they were only removed from AoS as Slaves to Darkness was bloated with too many of them. In fact they recently restocked a whole lot of them and the Metawatch article you site adjusted points and rules for several of them. So I think it's to early to say they were "binned."

[@S0nyb1ack]

Here locally the game died years ago... I don't want to be too negative, but... With prices of boxes going up and the avalanche of new stuff literally our entire community got priced out of the current competitive "mode". And this is the kind of game that attracts competitive players, I think. Without tournaments firing the vast majority of people moved on to something else. Personally I can't even find domeone to get a friendly game in anymore, which is sad - this wasthe one GW game I actually enjoyed. Well at this point I also got into other games, which I can luckily easily get as many games in as I want. We have a largy Conquest: The last argument of kings community and a small, but very excited Malifaux group going :)

[@Karloss00]

There are currently nine products for Underworlds; 5 teams, 2 starter sets and 2 decks of cards. Looks like it's winding down.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

But is it about to rise like a Phoenix from the ashes?

[@timunderbakke8756]

Alternative conspiracy theory I thought of after I walked away! The game may be “complete” from a miniature and rules perspective but…. They’re going to go back and redo more of the old warbands and have regular stock of things. So new runs of all the old warbands who lack a rivals deck getting one. Then they may or may not just keep rotating through new universal decks. Just a thought for something with no new product per se except for the missing cards to get a rivals deck. I know there’s some oldies I’d love a chance at that I missed

[@bdogpimpsause]

This would honestly be fine with me… there are so many warbands in this game already and rotating universal decks drastically changes the competitive landscape. I would be totally down if the release schedule became warband updates and universal decks with like 2 new warbands / year

[@AgentsofSigmar]

This a great idea. Could merge with the season pack idea we mooted a while back. Minimal studio design time and keeps the game fresh!

[@forextc]

Personally I think they kind of killed it a bit with the latest batch of releases. Certainly for me, having such a flood or releases in such a short period of time was off putting. Wintermaw was the first boxed set I haven't bought - I'm yet to assemble the core box warbands from previous seasons! I'm sure the key demographic for this game is older than 40k or AOS and therefore the people that play simply don't have the time to keep up with the flood of releases - assemble, paint, and the new decks give so many permutations to try and play with existing warbands. It's virtually died in my local community in the last six months.

[@kennethphillips6006]

If they cancelled it, I would probably play it. I don’t play regularly now, but I own most of the war bands I like. Taking me a while to paint. Since the game is so portable, I’d like set up a board on the weekends for intro games at the Warhammer store. If they don’t want to make product to sell, that’s on them. The feeling of it (or other GW games right now) not receiving support could be solved with a road map. I wonder what the hang up is for GW not proving press on what’s to come with their games.

[@greywulfslair]

I think it's quite likely there will be a new edition of Underworlds that lets them tell the wider narrative of the effect of Skaventide across the whole realms. Give me Orks vs cultists fighting over a warpstone infused temple. Idoneth vs Lumineth in a civil war over a warpstone crown. Give me odd corners of the Realms and weird offshoot factions. I'd be all over that. With my tinfoil hat on, I think they might merge WarCry and Underworlds together to create a game which can be played either with hexes or on a regular battle mat, using a merged version of both rules. Cards, WarCry's combat mechanic and either use a fixed Underworlds rosters or build a small narrative warband for campaign play. I can see then releasing Underworld boxes then a skirmish supplement to allow you to play a more WarCry style game. They're 90% there already, so merging the two rulesets into one would make a lot of sense and make for a much more appealing (ie, sellable) game.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

It'd be nice, though we've not really seen any connection between AOS and underworlds in any of the previous releases beyond maybe a warband within the season up til now

[@star_wars_miniatures]

Warhammer underpants is fantastic! I love my starblood stalkers team 😍😍

[@andyrogers5500]

We wrapped our six-week Underworlds league two weeks ago. We had 21 players total with a weekly peek of 17 players. Roughly 1/3 of those players were brand new to the game and most of those are committed to participating in our Warcry narrative campaign starting in August. It would be insane to cancel this game. I also think it’s insane that GW doesn’t have a similar on-ramp for the sci-fi side of the hobby.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

They really need to do like a 40k underworlds, kill team is too much faff still, they need to make it simpler

[@inigodearcos]

I got into Underworlds just a couple of months ago and I love the game, I really hope they keep it going for long!!

[@AgentsofSigmar]

us too and we've been playing for yeeeeears 😂

[@mikaelforssander1721]

If they are going to keep the game they really need to a proper reboot. The two boxes per season at a way to high price tag is killing the game. And it’s not helping that we haven’t seen the warbands from Gnarlwood, Wyrdhollow and Deathgorge released separately. Make it a 3 year edition game like the rest and once per year seasonal rules. And in order to make the whole thing balanced put the last editions warbands as legends. That would solve a lot of problems.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

it does need a reboot, but anything that removes older warbands will be met with resistance by a lot of players so they need to ensure they do something to keep them all, maybe in a legends section maybe for non competitive play perhaps. Or just revisit them all and produce pdfs much like they did for AOS and 40K before it

[@mickmarriott9453]

When the constant card deck growth became oppresive, I did start to become disenchanted. It's at the same point with all the warbands. I have em all and yet only play with about 6. The thought of the game becoming stable is great, but doubt GW would be happy with that model as potential sales would fall and subsequent support would also evaporate.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

There’s no reason stable couldn’t become more profitable though, if people know what they’re getting into then maybe more people would jump in 🤞

[@markreynolds1436]

I keep seeing GW announcing competitive events, and no Underworlds. Just seems ominous to me. That and the switch from content every White Dwarf to zip probably has me on the pessimistic half - though not given up all hope yet.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

It is definitely ominous!

[@SvartElric9]

I would definitely not stop playing the game! But a couple of points on the issue: on the one hand, I'd be very sad if Underworlds were to end, because I think that the warbands for the game have consistently been some of the most amazingly designed models for the AoS factions (especially neglected ones). On the other hand, I would probably be sort of ok with it not receiving any new products, as collector fatigue is an issue for me. I have every single box, every war band, the Arenas & Dreadfane, and almost all the extra card packs, the 2 Starter Sets, the Rivals of the Mirrored City, etc... but personally it's enough at this point, I suppose. I guess what I mean is that I am almost done. I would be ok with some deck refreshes, maybe some rules update, or even boards and terrain, but I don't know if I can handle more warbands (certainly not 4 each year). Sorry for rambling, I hope this makes sense!

[@drugmate9710]

Is that really an issue though? I'm not a competitive player so I'm not really concerned with staying the most competitive or even taking the FAQ's and updates in mind, but even then, with them releasing universal decks separately there's really no reason not to just skip on the warbands you don't find all that interesting. I myself have skipped the entirety of Deathgorge and Wintermaw (so far) because none of the models really interested me all that much.

[@SvartElric9]

​@@drugmate9710 it wouldn't be a problem for me!

[@jongrantminiatures]

I wounldnt stop playing if i could find opponents and tournaments. I am not interested in big games, as i havent got the time. Spearhead might be doable, even that us quite a big game.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

Yeah spearhead is a full best of 3 and then some

[@bretts7072]

Doubt it's getting cancelled. It's selling like crazy, at least if the fact that new warbands sell out quickly on the website. Also easier to get new players to commit to spending $40 or so on a new warband than $300 on a new army...

[@AgentsofSigmar]

Is it selling like crazy or are they just not producing much of it because they’re winding down 🤷‍♂️ I agree though that it feels like the perfect gateway game as it’s cheaper to get into, but maybe GW don’t need that, they’re the ones making increased profits month on month based on their last years reports 💰💵💶💷💴🤑

[@figghiu]

Great video guys, I’d definitely keep playing if they stop producing it. As long as there are players willing to gather to roll dice, we’ll be fine.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

Problem being how many of us will remain if it gets dropped 😢

[@zimagic]

Interesting point about everything arriving in the UK at the same time. International shipping is pretty messed up right now, they may not be announcing anything because they have no idea when it's going to arrive.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

That was a point nagging at the back of my mind when we were talking. Worldwide logistics could definitely be an issue.

[@theDackjanielz]

They have just done a batch of popular new releases and to my knowledge all of them sold well so i dunno why they would pick "now" to kill things off. Maybe that time is not in the far too distant future but i don't think we are there just yet.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

We did cover that in the video…

[@theDackjanielz]

@@AgentsofSigmar .........i am Echos of the passsssst.......

[@AgentsofSigmar]

@@theDackjanielz😂

[@necaacen]

they better release the thricefold discord trio in their own box before it goes, ive been waiting for that forever now ☹

[@AgentsofSigmar]

I’m not sure they’ll ever do that as they didn’t for either of the previous 2 core boxes wyrdhollow or the previous one whose name I’ve now completely forgotten

[@ed8869]

UNDERWORLDS refresh for NoVA? (thinking positive)

[@AgentsofSigmar]

That is probably a good shout!

[@redhappy201]

can i get a hat? i hope they do not end it !

[@AgentsofSigmar]

Check out our merch store. Only $199!

[@walkerdarin2003]

Love unboxing and playing a brand spanking new warband.

[@oldestmate5836]

I've played it less and less and moved towards narrative skirmish games like Frostgrave. I think miniatures agnostic systems are the way to go for the future to be honest.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

Never really got into narrative games, much prefer easy to pick up games without much ore or post game effort

[@oldestmate5836]

@@AgentsofSigmar Yeah pre/post game stuff is definitely not everyone's cup of tea!

[@AgentsofSigmar]

It’s because we’re really lazy 😂

[@henryrodriguez6260]

It’s not the pre/post-game that gets me. It is simply being able to consistently meet up for regular games in a campaign that undermines the whole endeavor.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

@@henryrodriguez6260yeah that doesn’t help either, another tick in the quick to pickup game column for things like underworlds there

[@markreynolds1436]

I wonder if they're considering a significant rewrite? I think the game has lost a bit of it's elegance, and it's a rare game that doesn't get overhauled. I could actually see a rewrite with new cards, stats and rules - just preserving the key concepts of warbands and hex boards.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

A bit of a rewrite wouldn’t hurt the burgeoning number of warbands currently in rotation

[@ant6227]

Unfortunately regardless to what the truth is GWs silence has an impact. My local player base has been dwindling slowly each month to the point that just yesterday the decision was made to cancel the event at our LCG. Maybe there will be local interest again IF another box is released but it will be a huge up hill battle to get playing again.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

That's sad to hear. The game just needs a consistent feedback loop from GW to be properly take off.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

No news is sometimes the worst news for a games health

[@DeanFairchild]

Why don't we create a UW's version of the NAF

[@AgentsofSigmar]

NAF?

[@AndrewBryant-tb5qi]

A game is only dead when no one plays it anymore….. Apparently Mordheim is a “dead” game…..but despite it being out of print and not supported by GW, it’s having a big resurgence!

[@AgentsofSigmar]

It’s good it’s getting a bit of a revival in the community though it’s better when GW actively support it too as then it can get even more players involved. Bloodbowl was similar

[@laam999]

Honestly i wouldnt mindnif it does. My gaming group play loads of dead games and it means i have to spend no more money, all in all i wont be sad lol

[@AgentsofSigmar]

Great games are always great games, right?

[@DrButsie]

Great video, love the back and forth on the topics!!

[@AgentsofSigmar]

Cheers! We tried to keep it involving and interesting while still being useful 👍

[@GuyRiessen]

If they cancelled it tomorrow, would it die simply due to the lack of coverage of by internet content producers? It ABSOLUTELY WOULD. That's right, totally dead. No one would play...now let me get back to my ongoing campaign of Mordheim.....

[@AgentsofSigmar]

Take your point, but a lot of older games came about in a time when people just bought stuff and played with it without a need for future releases and more products, at some point in the last couple of decades people now seem much more driven by whats coming next and what they see online and that could definitely have an impact.

[@orktim3672]

Honestly, I do think the game might disappear Sadly. I haven't played it much because I can't get to any tournaments myself, and I truly have missed playing it

[@AgentsofSigmar]

We miss you Tim! Can you get to Market Harborough in September?

[@orktim3672]

@AgentsofSigmar I can't say, really. My life is hectic and a moment in a good way ,with work, a new lady in my life, and trying to work things out lol

[@AgentsofSigmar]

Glad things are going well!

[@MrVidma1]

Well lately all systems except 40k are without roadmaps

[@timunderbakke8756]

40k is also missing a roadmap now. There are now no active roadmaps in GW. We just kinda know that the first AoS releases are Stormcast and skaven based on the outcome of their skaventide game

[@AgentsofSigmar]

We need a road map for when they're going to publish roadmaps. Maybe with the state of logistics right now, they don't want to commit to anything. 🤔

[@superdupermatt1986]

Nice hat Pete It would be just my luck that I decide to get back into underworlds and it gets canned 🙃

[@johanderyck6598]

@@superdupermatt1986 I guess that’s the mighty artefact called Thin Foiled Khorne.

[@Dubstyles84]

I think that if the game was cancelled, the community could take stock of all the cards, and create various "cubes" (magic the gathering term) and game formats that use a selection of cards.

[@mectrom]

Last month on the internet: Is Warcry being cancelled?1? This month on the internet: Is Warhammer Underworld being cancelled?1? Next month on the internet: Is Warhammer: The Old World being cancelled?!?😉

[@AgentsofSigmar]

we’ve not done one about warcry getting cancelled, well do old world now so we can get ahead of the curve

[@walkerdarin2003]

Their boxed game division just cranks things out. Doesn’t matter if it supported IMO. They just report sales.

[@margaretwood152]

Warhammer has really fallen down in recent years

[@honzaskypala]

The corpse already stinks, just we are not willing to admit it yet. Don't take me wrong, I am huge fan of Underworlds, I am going to be very sad... I just don't deny what I see.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

😭

[@honzaskypala]

@@AgentsofSigmar Btw. I disagree with the argument that GW announces when something ends. They never announced end of Aeronautica Imperialis, nor Adeptus Titanicus, nor Mordheim, nor Battlefleet Gothic... The only game when they announced the end was Warhammer Fantasy Battles. Now they announced end of certain minis in AoS, but this is just because the game continues and they need people stop playing those minis. But they do not announce end of games.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

They definitely did say when aeronautica was being repurposed for the new epic

[@easygrin1127]

I think it had its run.. Not much more interesting team came out. And i didnt like you needed to to basically buy the game again every season just to play thexteams you did like. I made it so far to Beastgrave and then i was done. There are a few warbands i was dissapointed i missed.

[@timunderbakke8756]

Man, the whole game changed since those days. I checked out for the same reasons but saw the new rules and came back in. It’s a lot better now with rivals

[@AgentsofSigmar]

Have to agree that it’s a lot better now. And the rules are online free so no real need to buy the latest core box unless you want the warbands etc

[@philpeters3689]

I would rather they F off the cards and sell the models as alternative sculpts for Warcry and AOS. I think i have around 5 underworlds warbands and ive never bothered playing a game as no one plays it

[@AgentsofSigmar]

We’d rather they produced more cards and warbands

[@captainferrite]

Well I would hope so. They exhausted any meaningful design space like 2 years ago, it's just been a zombie ruleset since then.

[@AgentsofSigmar]

We’ll have to agree to disagree on that, we think some of the more recent warbands and releases have been some of the best