Is what happened to the Downes Family Arthur's fault?

Was Arthur Morgan to blame for the death of Thomas Downes? Was the tragedy of Edith and Archie Downes' decent into poverty to blame on Arthur in red dead redemption 2?
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[@morganblackhand2020]

Nobody is innocent here. Strauss shouldn't target the desperate, Downes should have thought more of the potential consequences and dangers to himself and his family before taking the loan, Arthur shouldn't have beaten him like he did. Overall though I'd blame Strauss over anyone else.

[@baldcerat6578]

Well when you think about it the less fortunate are typically the ppl who takes loans the most. Rich people dont need loans

[@Existential_Robot]

@@baldcerat6578 Actually not true. I know many rich folks that take a loan for a business, then use the profit from said business to pay it back.

[@hornetguy9063]

@@baldcerat6578actually rich people take out loans all of the time. They’ll put assets up as collateral and take out a low interest loan. Which isn’t income. So rather than draw a salary from a company, they take out a loan for the same amount, save tax dollars (since it’d be paid at a corporate income tax rate and not a personal income tax rate), and keep money in a place where it’ll grow faster than the interest rate of their loan. It’s a little risky but it’s an effective workaround to high income tax rates in places like California. The better way of putting it is that rich people don’t take out loans from sketchy loan sharks who have a wandering outlaw gang backing their business ventures.

[@bendavenport4136]

@Garland846 The fact that Dutch let Strauss and, worse, Micah into the gang is pretty much proof that the gang stands for nothing and Dutch tricks the others into believing otherwise.

[@Abdallasweity]

I mean Straus is just a representation of Jews back then and even nowadays being loan sharks and all.

[@theimperialist2686]

It's not entirely Arthur's fault, what he pretty much did was speed up the process of driving the Downes into poverty. Thomas Downes was the one who willingly borrowed money from Strauss, so agreed to the terms of paying it back which he failed to comply with. Also, they were on the way to poverty whether Arthur was involved or not, since Thomas was dying of TB and that would have definitely put a strain on their finances.

[@aspirantdrummer]

Also, burrowing money to support your charity instead of your family wasn´t the smartest move either

[@dogeshow2651]

Doesn’t justify Arthur whatsoever

[@Amk4421]

@@dogeshow2651don’t ask for money when you can’t pay it back when it’s time to pay up 😂

[@marythecontrarian]

He already owed more on the house than it was worth meaning he was already in debt and Strauss is not the only loan shark tbh if it hadn’t been him it would have been someone else. The other loan sharks might not have physically beat Downes so he would have likely had a more dignified death but the wife having to sell herself and the son having to work in coal mines was going to happen whether or not he even took a loan, much less if he had taken it from someone other than Strauss. The amount of money Arthur or anyone else would have had to give him to keep his wife and child afloat would have been crazy. Yes, Arthur can afford it but most people could not. It was inevitable.

[@marythecontrarian]

@@dogeshow2651no but it answers was everything Arthur’s fault. No. Beating him was Arthur’s fault, everything else was going to happen. Even if Arthur didn’t come to collect the debt at all, they were still in debt even then.

[@planderlinde1969]

In my opinion Arthur might have accelerated Downs' journey to the grave but ultimately the result would have been the same. The family was already in financial troubles and tuberculosis would have killed him at some point down the road.

[@mrgoober6320]

A quick google search reveals that a TB infection would be fatal within five years.

[@0xyg3ng0d7]

And they accelerated Arthur into the grave as well

[@Nifty102]

Yeah kinda like how the stress put on Arthur caused his TB to accelerate

[@cadence4527]

Two things: 1. Edith actually comes to Horseshoe Overlook to confront Strauss after Thomas dies, informing him that Thomas had died and even pays off some of the debt. 2: some NPCs around Valentine will elude to Thomas’ passing. I heard the shopkeeper at Wallace Station mention it and another instance, I heard the doctor in Valentine mention it as well all of this is before Strauss informs Arthur himself that Thomas had passed away.

[@juhaeerjayran4246]

man edith is a better tracker than the pinkertons

[@1mdr0w5y]

I never knew that, rdr2 has sm hidden details man

[@juanluisquinteroreyes7108]

I always had the questions: 1) How did Edith get the camp's location? 2) Why did the gang let her go after it's evident she discovered their hideout? The latter's location was supposed to be a zealously guarded secret and Edith had all the reasons to report such location to the authorities. 3) Once leaving, why did Edith did not report the location to the authorities? Being them the responsibles for her husband's assault, death and her and her son's desperate situation, she had more than enough motivation to report them, she would be the first one to want to see them in prison or hanging. Please don't tell me she did not know who they were, since they were the most wanted criminal gang in the USA, Arthur alone had a $5000 bounty on his head.

[@warmcanadain7649]

9:58 she knows who Arthur is she even says “oh no, not you” she’s scared Arthur will hurt her family further

[@troperhghar9898]

Arthur: stop lending money to desperate people who cant pay Strauss: rich people dont need my help, but my work keeps us fed

[@dazmaz1269]

He says after I've caught the third meal for the day

[@thechosenone4422]

A minor easter egg, that connects RDR2 and GTA V: the golf club in GTA V were called by the name of Edith Downes. A small detail that perfectly connects and finishes this story

[@kevinmcdonald951]

wrong

[@plebisMaximus]

@@wulfhere83 That implies RDR2 is based off entirely real history, which it's not. There never was a state called Lemoyne in the USA.

[@plebisMaximus]

@@wulfhere83 You're most likely right it's unrelated and at most a cute easter egg, but I love being a dick about semantics and you mentioned California, which isn't a real thing in Red Dead, so it had to hit you this time. Apologies lol.

[@titanusgodzillaa4274]

@@plebisMaximus California was mentioned multiple times in the story and even some animals have California in their name so its canon in rdr2

[@plebisMaximus]

@@titanusgodzillaa4274 I'm a moron with a horrible memory, you are correct. Disregard previous comments.

[@majorlagg9321]

I've played computer games since 1983. This one is the best game I ever played.

[@siyacer]

It must be crazy seeing how much games have evolved

[@majorlagg9321]

@@siyacer From the days of Asteroids and Adventure? Yes. My kids don't understand how I'm fascinated with how well done these games are.

[@الطابق30]

You must be a very, very expert in video games and know everything about games Video games amazing talent

[@majorlagg9321]

@@الطابق30 I'm better at proper grammar. Something, you should try.

[@johnrockyryan]

Damn bro that is amazing you saw the evolution of gaming and gaming consoles happen right before your eyes

[@Ivkoni]

Interesting thing is that you can do the mission without laying a hand on Downes. You can just choose the intimidate option and Arthur won't hit him. He'll throw him to the ground in the cutscene, but no punches will be thrown.

[@ChuloInYourCulo]

Which is kinda pointless and annoying since Arthur still gets TB

[@BH02377]

That’s no fun!!

[@Dr.Gainzzz]

Let’s be honest though on our first play through almost 99% of us picked to beat him up. It’s canonically how the story is meant to unfold I believe.

[@Qwertzuioyxcv]

@@Dr.Gainzzz Like no! When I played the game firts time than mutiple times my Arthus allways just threaten never hurts if I can choose not to. It is more fun that Arthur want to be and is a good man but hist family don't let him be.

[@dastemplar9681]

But you still get infected with TB and the family still blames you for their downfall.

[@dudebro8811]

I think the duality of Arthur between high and low honor is fascinating. Both are just as much who he is as the either, but this projection of what's inside to the outside world (to us, the audience). The honor system isn't come cosmic alignment between good or evil. It's how the character feels about themselves. Ultimately, playing Good Cowboy or Bad Cowboy doesn't make a difference. But the expression of the characters' internal dialog gives us real insight into the characters. Jack's expressions are much more plain to see because there really is no future for him, the story is over. If you think the concept is interesting as I do please cover it because your analysis is very welcome in the community.

[@danielja1832]

I'll make a case for Strauss and Arthur here. Ultimately, they were doing what Dutch wanted them to do, which was make money the only way they knew how. I think I would be tempted to treat the gang like a business and say Dutch, as the leader, should be held responsible for the actions of his underlings. The gangs actions should be ultimately done under his supervision, and him held responsible for consequences. Everyone else was just surviving the only way they knew how. As the gangs leader, he had control over how Strauss and Arthur collected the money, and I believe Strauss is a Red Herring, or a scapegoat. Not that Strauss and Arthur have no responsibility whatsoever, to a degree they had their own agency, I just think people go way too hard on Strauss, when Dutch signed off on all his actions, and would not have kept him around if he wasn't making money.

[@Fishpasta4]

Arthur is no more responsible for Thomas Downs' fate than Thomas is responsible for Arthur's, they are both symptoms of wider issues in each others lives. For Thomas, Arthur is the embodiment of his desperation brought about by his failing health & finances. Turning to a loan shark to try and fix things in the short term which leads to Arthur shortening his life. For Arthur, Thomas is the embodiment of the consequences resulting from the lifestyle he has led for most of his life. While he may not have been actively aware of it Arthur's actions do have an affect and eventually these things catch up to you. This is shown literally when Arthur contracts TB from Thomas, something that wouldn't have happened if he wasn't collecting debts for Strauss. If I were to point a finger I'd point both fates to Strauss himself. Strauss targeted the Downes family specifically because they were destitute and had no alternative, Arthur himself tells Strauss how foolish it was to loan money to a family that had no means of paying it back. Meanwhile Strauss specifically instructs Arthur to not go gentle on Thomas because he 'doesn't like his sort' an act that would lead to Arthur's own downfall which Arthur comes to realize during his last days when he reflects on his life and the choices he has made.

[@tacosaus5924]

I think it was good for the Downes that Arthur came into their lives since without the money he gave them in the last encounter, they wouldn't be able to get anywhere. Even if Arthur hadn't beaten Thomas, he still would've died from the TB, making his family have no money and thus sending them deeper into poverty.

[@whodatn4l948]

Arthur expedited his death by beating him into a pulp, who knows how much time he had left, he could've had time to make more money and keep the house...he still would've died but maybe they could've kept the house and Edith wouldn't have had to turn to prostitution.

[@thebandit9982]

Arthur only caught TB cuz of the beating. He was in Downes face and that’s when Arthur got coughed on. So no Arthur wouldn’t of caught TB had he not beaten downes

[@sociopathicsquirrel3989]

I think he meant thomas wouldve died from the TB regardless if Arthur beat him

[@tacosaus5924]

@@sociopathicsquirrel3989 exactly

[@violetaa_aa]

I'm fairly sure the Downes family even ends up wealthy by the epilogue, because of arthurs money giving them a new opportunity.

[@TheTwistedTraceur]

i think guarma is the thing that made the tuberculosis truly come out in arthur, he was really fine before that

[@stevepalpatine2828]

Tropical conditions and humidity is the worst environment possible for that kind of illness. Before antibiotics people with consumption (TB) were advised to stay in places with clean dry air, a lot of sanitoriums where in the desert and in arid alpine environments. Living in the Bayou swamps for months, and then being shipwrecked and being stuck on a tropical island, and then Beaver Hollow which has constant rain accelerated his illness. People could and did live for years with TB provided they stayed in dry climates. Doc Holliday had TB for years before he died.

[@goduxunike]

Solid point. Before the TB diagnosis, I assumed he looked sick because of some other disease from the island. Before he really looked fine. But what you wrote makes more sense.

[@anthonyholmes5965]

I did catch this interaction of her in camp this last play through. I slowed down for awhile and caught a lot more conversations I’ve always missed.

[@VileMr.Grinch]

The lack of understanding how the body works, and the Arthur meat riding in the comments is wild. Arthur 100% accelerated Thomas Downes death, his body is already quite weak with his immune system trying to fight off one hell of an illness, fever, cold sweats, shivers, and now it suffers the trauma of being punched, kicked and thrown about like a ragdoll by an absolute unit of an outlaw (hardened and used to fighting) in his physical prime. Downes even has to pull himself up with the fence because he's so weak after the beating he can't even stand on his own. Did he make a stupid, desperate decision in taking the loan ? Yes. Did he deserve what he got ? Absolutely not. Arthur CHOSE to beat an already dying man, and that imo, is THE most cruel and despicable thing we see Arthur do during the game that is out of our control, he also wouldn't have contracted TB if he wasn't so eager to beat Downes.

[@hornetguy9063]

Fair. But this is basically how loan sharks have always operated. They target people who are denied financing elsewhere, because lenders who only have legal means of getting their money back see them as too risky to lend to. Sharks have enforcers like this. So it’s probably not the first time Arthur has beaten a man up in search of payment. He had no idea Downes was essentially dying of TB. But it really comes down to organized crime being a nasty thing.

[@ambientnoiseaddict]

Dick riding or not, you still sound like you're taking this wayyy too serious/personal yourself.

[@VileMr.Grinch]

@@hornetguy9063 No I know all this, but I'm not talking about the ones we don't see in his past. The ones we do see, like Winton Holmes, Wrobel, the kid in Rhodes, but specifically Wrobel you can get away with simply intimidating him, you don't even have to take the gold ring if you already know about it and don't want to do that to him, so we know Arthur is capable of not beating them to a pulp. But with Downes we are forced to beat him, and in the cutscene it continues a bit, it's completely out of our control, it's all Arthur's own decision

[@mrspo7012]

You are right, the same thing Micah did to Arthur.

[@batkat0]

I think a lot of people underestimate how damaging a hard punch or kick can be.

[@dastemplar9681]

In the end, Arthur does show the Downes family that he truly was sincerely sorry and deeply regrets for where he put the family. Both parties know and acknowledge that he can’t fix what he has done, but the Downes were at least able to see that there was indeed a change of heart in Arthur.

[@manbearpig342]

Makes you wonder what would have happened if Arthur didn't beat Mr. Downes. Obviously he still would have died but would his family have been any better off? Perhaps, but maybe not, one could make the argument that had Arthur not done what he did and given them money they may have stayed poor and destitute. Im not suggesting what Arthur did was right but maybe it gave them a life they wouldn't have had otherwise.

[@IrishColin]

They would definitely still be destitute because he already owed more than his house was worth aside from the debt to Strauss. More than that though is Downes was a grown man and made his own decisions. I think money lending is dirty work for sure but I have ZERO sympathy for those who borrow and can’t pay it back because they made a choice knowing full well the consequences (which everyone back then did) including beatings, debtors prison, losing what you own etc. I’ve spent my life in poverty but I’ve never borrowed money I couldn’t pay back no matter how tough things got because my poverty is NO ONE else’s responsibility.

[@mieszkoi2746]

​@@IrishColin Human life is more important than money, Mr Downes made dumb decision with lending money but that does not mean he deserves dying. You should have zero sympathy to the people that lend money to desperate people and then cause psyhical harm to them when they cant pay back. Banks wont lend you money when you cant pay it back

[@joelcarver8932]

I love how that guy says "you couldn't kill no one" and then Arthur later beats the sh*t out of Micah about 1 min. before he dies of TB. Tough as nails to the bitter end.

[@mttokrnk]

Imagine arthur getting salvia into the stew and everybody died of tb

[@digitalbathrx4529]

Just started up an old save I was playing early last year. And I ran into Mrs Downes in Saint Denis. Could not for the life of me remember who she was. And this video pops up. Thank you!

[@scrubbear2425]

Woah, I never noticed Thomas was there at the fist fight

[@SillyNacho]

14:00 - You couldn't have worded that ANY WORSE

[@GamingSkeptic]

Arthur accelerated the inevitable. As you said maybe that's the better way for them cause now rather than blaming God they could blame Arthur and keep their sanity. I'm so glad they made money in the end. Beautiful story overall and that's just a side story.

[@dmc6617]

I am simply amazed about the level of detail Rockstar put in this story. And also about your effort to uncover and explain allof this. Thank you!

[@mimonikeda5768]

Downes knew exactly what he was doing when he borrowed the money from Strauss. Arthur is in no way responsible for his death. Thomas would have died and his family would have wound up poor regardless of what Arthur did.

[@jacktaylor8195]

Think about it. If it wasn't Authur, it would probably be Micah who Strauss sent to retrieve the debt. And he would have absolutely robbed and killed the whole family.

[@SIsReal]

14:36 you know a game and character is written well when you start to tear up just thinking about Arthur

[@JubeiKibagamiFez]

3:39 Here's the thing, the first time I played this mission, I only threatened Downes, I never beat him. When he didn't give up the money, I thought there might have been an alternate ending to the mission, so I reloaded and did the mission again, beating Downes severely, with the same mission ending. The player doesn't have to beat Downes at all to complete the mission, therefore, Thomas Downes' fate would still have been the same, he would've have died, they would've have lost the farm, and the mother and son would've been left destitute. The son blames Arthur because the son has no one else to blame, and it's easy to blame a heartless thug who only cares about money.

[@billbombshiggy9254]

Okay, I have first hand knowledge of TB. I can tell you that you usually don't just contract it and start showing symptoms. You contract it and your body fights it, making you have it BUT you are asymptomatic. It's called latent TB. My husband and brothers in law contracted it from my father in law who, as the doctor said, likely contracted it years ago from someone who was active, and the stroke he had, triggered it. His body was weak and couldn't keep fighting it, causing him to go into active TB and start showing symptoms and becoming contagious. Latent TB is not contagious. My FIL, when he was in the midst of active TB, even a minor beating from a tiny girl like me (5'4" 125lbs) would have killed him. He's quite lucky we have modern medicine. One year of antibiotics later and he was cleared entirely. He had to do like six months of antibiotics before he wasn't even contagious anymore. So yes, Arthur did kill him. But I see what you mean that back then, he would likely die of it, and Arthur just sped it along. My question is what caused Arthur to go into active as fast as he did? I have to assume he was latent or would have been for a while, until the beating from the Odriscolls, combine that with all the stress from the gang, and his immune system probably wasnt up to par and it's why he went into active so quick. But you can take solace in the fact, likely everyone in that gang caught it from him, Micah included. Yes, poor Tilly, Mary Beth, etc. Whether or not they stayed latent through their lives is another question. Had dutch not taken the leap of faith, had John not killed Javier and Micah, and they likely would have died of TB.

[@aleNoyz91]

TB doesnt exist anymore

[@billbombshiggy9254]

@@aleNoyz91 I think you're thinking of smallpox. TB absolutely still exists and is still a problem in many parts of the world. Unless you're just joking around. Hard to tell. Either way, Google is your friend.

[@MrsJasmyn45]

​@aleACAB91 Oh, yes, it does. Tuberculosis is still around, and 1 million people die every year from it. We now have different kinds like DRTB. That stands for Drug Resistant Tuberculosis. This means medications won't touch this type of TB. Some research on your part might be a good idea

[@billbombshiggy9254]

Also, isn't the theory that Abigail died of TB?

[@billbombshiggy9254]

@@aleNoyz91 and yes, it absolutely does. I thought I had responded to you before about this, but it does. You may be thinking of smallpox which was labeled eradicated by the WHO in the 70s and by the 80s all routine vaccinations had stopped.

[@Shade04rek]

I have a thought after reading some comments. I think contracting TB is what saved Arthur mentally and morally. It might depend a bit on how you played him, but generally the story seems to try and show that Arthur is more ruthless up until that point of being sick and seeing the damage his past actions caused for others, if not only mentally, since I think the Downes's where already on this path even if Arthur never was involved. The interesting point I have though is that if Arthur never contracted TB, I think he would have remained more ruthless and unsympathetic to others, although while still knowing what's right, but also just not caring because of his own strength in self-preserving. I feel that strength kind of enables him to be willfully ignorant of his opportunities to do good, like when Charles needed to push him to not ignore the german family's plight by "playing evil" when Arthur in fact knows better. It makes me wonder if that healthy version of Arthur would have deterred Micah from poking and prodding him, which only happens because Micah notices Arthur's weakness of being sick. Micah might have been more of a suck up instead, while trying to "recruit" him to his thinking and style. Arthur's social status would have been even more feared and respected throughout many events, and he might even have stayed sided with Dutch in the end over helping John and the other "defecting" members. He'd maybe even make it to the events of rdr1 as a target, provided John would even survive with Arthur on the Dutch's side.

[@deleted_acoount_0530]

I think the canon may be: play low honor, get TB, then play high honor to redeem him.

[@Novocane23]

Saying that Arthur was responsible for Downes death is like shooting someone who is already fatally wounded. Perhaps Arthur shortened his time on this earth, but by how much? A few days? A few weeks? Maybe months? Typically, after symptoms manifest tuberculosis is fatal within 30 days to 3 years without some form of treatment. There were some forms of treatment, even in 1899, but most people couldn't afford to move somewhere warm/dry and relax. Just like we see Arthur continue to do his best for the gang as the sickness claims him, extended bed rest and relaxation just wasn't something the common person could afford. Which brings us back to Thomas Downes, he was out tending to his field, which is physical work. The area of the Downes ranch is just east of the Grizzlies, between Strawberry and Valentine. It can get pretty cold at night and during the winter, an environment that isn't great for TB patients. So realistically, at the point he's coughing when we meet him at his ranch, I would say he has at most a month left. We also don't know the exact timeframe from our beating of Thomas and Strauss telling us about his death. Possibly a couple of days to a week. At the end of the day, I don't believe Arthur was to blame for what happened to the Downes family following their first encounter. My grandfather once said that life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you deal with it. In the end, it was Edith's choice to become a prostitute and refuse to leave the region.

[@fuejrbtb]

Yeah, Arthur is just a good man for helping them

[@puncake8945]

Do you think women had choices in 1899? Lmaooo

[@alexandercope4049]

11 years later and this video is still being used to teach apprentice mechanics about alignments

[@loudelk99]

Downes borrowed the money. He had to know that someone would be by to reclaim the money.

[@Big-w9r]

15:28 "arther puts his hands on the forman" forman: gets slammed to the ground

[@tomzydaone8976]

I know this might sound stupid but I heard a theory that says that Jamie is not actually Mary Linton’s brother but he’s hers and Arthur’s son. However since her father despises Arthur’s lifestyle and the fact that he’s an outlaw, he raised as his own instead of grandchild.

[@dylanbyrne9597]

As much as I would like to agree with you Mary and Arthur would have to have been very young in order for Jamie to be their son because Jamie I think is 20 when you meet him in the game and I don't know how old Arthur is I just know he's in his late 30s and Mary ia at least 41

[@theimperialist2686]

@@dylanbyrne9597 Arthur and Mary are in their mid to late 30s.

[@dylanbyrne9597]

​@@theimperialist2686OK thanks for Clarifying that for me

[@theimperialist2686]

@@dylanbyrne9597 No problem

[@tomzydaone8976]

@@dylanbyrne9597 wait Jamie is 20?

[@theejshow758]

I feel like the Downes family situation wasn't supposed to be a direct comment on Arthur's wrongdoing, but rather a general collection of what Arthur has done wrong. While the Downes situation may not be entirely his fault, the interactions he has with them is supposed to be a symbol for every other awful thing Arthur has done. When Arthur helps them in the "Do Not Seek Absolution" he isn't looking for forgiveness or is not seeking absolution from them, but trying to put right in the world where he has done wrong, with the Downes being the people plaguing his mind due to the punishment he receives from his actions towards them. The Downes are a symbol for all the other people he has hurt.

[@TPFB129]

It's not Arthur's fault. It was the TB and Strauss.

[@ImThatDeadpool]

Nobody forced Thomas to borrow the money.

[@elegrin5170]

hahhahaha :D

[@luishernandezsoto]

​@@elegrin5170 Why are you laughing?

[@panxinator644]

I hope Arthur could've let go Thomas, the Downes would've probably end being there at Annesbourg. Being able to let go Thomas not only Arthur wouldn't get Tuberculosis, this would surely mean either Micah is even more of a rat and would try to take Arthur out in another way, because I'm sure Micah would have betrayed the Van Der Linde anyways, or Arthur would've taken Micah down quite easily. For the Downes maybe Arthur could've helped them with the mines and get some information in a possible "I have a plan" from Dutch and attack the mines, obviously failing because of the intervention of the Pinkertons.

[@Rucker1980]

If Arthur hadn't beaten Thomas, his family would have died. Wow, i never thought of that

[@Kimberly-cx9uv]

No, actually not, she would've still ended up poor, plus her Husband knew what he was getting him and *HIS FAMILY* into, actually it's her Husbands fault, it was kind of Arhur to help, they/he knew the rules, and that's it.

[@channel45853]

That sounds like Dimitri's line of thinking. And still, it's Arthur's fault that Downes died as quickly as he did. Just because a car is gonna crash sometime, doesn't mean you're excused for crashing it.

[@drrobotnik44]

​@@channel45853 No, it's strauss's fault

[@channel45853]

​@@drrobotnik44but Arthur actually did the job. Like the other men in the game, he could have said "No," to Strauss.

[@drrobotnik44]

@@channel45853 then dutch probably would have said something about it

[@Kimberly-cx9uv]

@@channel45853 That's the thing he would've died anyways, probably not even long enough to rake anything of worth up, but as he said in the Video he didn't really smack his Lungs or so.

[@RoastedCharly]

rdr3 better be set in heaven where he tries searching for thomas and micah for killing him, having to kill god and stuff in the process

[@Alex-dr2lp]

Kratos Arthur

[@raze5783]

Thomas Downes would’ve died from TB regardless, which would’ve resulted in Mrs. Downes and their son living in poverty anyways. It was inevitable.

[@grumpyoldnord]

Arthur didn't kill Thomas, they just blame him. My last playthrough I specifically avoided all physical confrontation with Downes and he still dies. Tuberculosis is what killed him.

[@TygerClawGaming]

Here's a hot take: Strauss is worse than Micah, Micah is an up front scum bag but at least he gets his hands dirty, Strauss sends others to do his dirty work. Arthur was being an enforcer, it's the same concept as people who borrow money from the Mob you know what you're getting into best to stay away from loan sharks. How much Arthur did or did not worsen his condition is unknown but at the end of the day Thomas Downes is responsible for that entire exchange.

[@Ernesto-ir8ds]

yea well strauss is a pretty accurate depiction of "the chosen people"... always plotting, but cowardly in nature...

[@stormichow5325]

As a person? Definitely not. Yes, what Strauss was doing was wrong 100%, but at least he was loyal to the gang. Micah was there only to help himself, and all he did was cause trouble. Strauss at the very least expressed concern for others, even Arthur himself. Plus, Strauss didn't tell the Pinkertons anything that he knew, and he was tortured to death. This happens even if Arthur throws Strauss out of the camp, showing that he held no disdain for them even after they removed him.

[@Ernesto-ir8ds]

@@stormichow5325 strauss was loyal only because it benefited him, if he could make more somewhere else, he would betray the gang in a heartbeat... such is the nature of his kind...

[@aurairl6406]

@@Ernesto-ir8dsthey literally say in the epilogue how Strauss was picked up by the Pinkertons and died in the custody, never saying a word about the gang.

[@GG_AKA_GAVIN]

The real villain behind all of this is Strauss

[@lewisjohnston7077]

Depends if Strauss knew if Thomas Downes had tuberculosis or not.

[@alienlife7754]

@@lewisjohnston7077 he did know and even says as much when he tells Arthur to collect the money.

[@victorpleitez768]

Strauss shouldn’t be in the gang to begin with and further proves a point that Dutch is full of shit.

[@JusttMiike]

⁠​⁠@@lewisjohnston7077he knew Downes was poor and still lended him money

[@lewisjohnston7077]

@@JusttMiike Thomas Downes still accepted the debt. He could have rejected it

[@Zabrixis1919]

Never realized Thomas stops you from killing the guy outside the bar, that’s crazy

[@cavemandude257]

Actually I don’t care about the Downes family any more than I would care about any other npc in red dead. We mass murdered entire towns as Arthur and beat thousands of people. We are a piece of shit and not better than Micah in this regard. The fate of the Downes family is the same fate that countless other families had in this universe. I don’t like helping them in Chapter 6. I still appreciate the story of Arthur and how he redeems himself but it isn’t actually that logical. Fans tend to romanticize the story but if we look at it cold it doesn’t really make that much sense

[@Heisen_burger-dude]

I hate how so many people people just defend Arthur for no matter what. Like seriously, these people don't understand the story at all. Arthur himself knows he isn't a good person. At the end he just fixed what he could

[@Petmyhead]

ultimately it's the faullt of the dad and strauss

[@lewis9159]

In part, yes, because he still took money off desperate people and assaulted a very ill man. Thomas Downes was trying his best, despite his illness, to provide for his family at a time when poor farmers had very few means of getting medical or financial help. Arthur isn't solely responsible, the society of the time was brutal for the sick and the poor, but he isn't completely innocent either.

[@orpheus0108]

I mean, he could have had internal brain bleeding after arthur laid the smackdown

[@gabrielreichert5362]

If strauss hadn't joined the gang Arthur would've gotten sick

[@runicdiva]

Thomas Downes doomed his family, not Arthur. Downes could have gotten a loan from any other loan shark and it would have had the same outcome. I've known people who are like Downes, so charitable that they put themselves and their family into extreme poverty. I had an Evangelical Christian roommate years ago, she gave so much money to charities and her church that she only had $40 for food every month. I told her that she can't help others if she can't help herself. She didn't listen to me or her family that was telling her the same thing and things didn't turn out well for her.

[@MIKE2111ful]

And I bet you most of that money was not used for a good cause

[@arandomcivilian2988]

What happened to her?

[@juntacuyan462]

I don't blame Arthur for Thomas's death, Thomas has TB already and at its death's door, I blame Strauss for Thomas's and Arthur's death in the end.

[@morgan0__o]

Mr. Downes, despite his charity and good intentions, knew he was heading into his grave soon, and what does he decide to leave behind to his family? a debt that could have at best left his family destitute, and at worst, for all he knew regarding one of the most dangerous gangs, potentially murdered if someone more heartless got involved. imagine, for a minute, what would have happened if he borrowed money from a more brutal gang that would murder his family, or worse, if Micah was sent to deal with the debt. hell, even a bank would be more heartless than chapter 6 Arthur. and if Arthur didn't come along and give them money, his wife would resort to prostitution indefinitely, and his son would be doomed into being worked to death in the mines.

[@shimozukachi5887]

i get it. you're trying to defend arthur. he's a bad person. being the protagonist doesn't change that.

[@tigerfanfrv]

the Downes took out too many loans and relied on a known loan shark.. TB was not curable at the time. Mrs. Downes had some other options, she could have become a seamstress, worked at a factory, a nanny, a housemaid, anything. She chose that path. they are responsible for their own downfall. What happened to the Downes family is not completely on Arthur's shoulders. Saying as much implies that is Arthur had never visited them they would financially stable family. Mr. Downes even said they own more than the farm is worth. That implies that they owe multiple people.

[@jaylarkin4331]

Definitely never knew Edith pulled up to camp 😅

[@RomarioToretto]

You can assume to Syphilis killed her as it did to Al capone.

[@plamf1278]

arthur paid the ultimate price for what he did to the family, he lost his life which he may have been fit enough to avoid, and his gang falling apart may have not been as much of a mess if he was still fit, I reckon the illness would have given micah leverage when whispering into dutch's ear

[@maxbaker6220]

Wait how did I not see Edith in that cutscene with Archie I must just be blind

[@alimurph18]

I think Arthur sees his wife and son in the family but he won’t touch on that because he barely talks about them

[@ChiefThanos]

Thomas was part of the genocide of indigenous in the game. The game shows hints how you're all curses because of this and it's up to the individual to come to the light like Arthur

[@AnonymousEnigma19]

That's why Strauss when he was caught didn't say a dagum thing, in the end he blamed himself for what happened to Arthur because he's the one who sent him to collect the money from the guy.

[@Bushmasterghillie]

Look at it this way Thomas took the money he knew the risk Strauss loaned the money he also knew Thomas was high risk and would most likely fault on his payment Arthur did the deed knowing what his line of work entailed regardless of what happens to the debtor whilst collecting what's due Thomas knew he was struggling and that taking loans he couldn't pay either through failed means or his demise could spell doom for his family or worsen it. Strauss should have assessed the situation better and look Into their situation to see if his return on investment would be met with guarantee and assurance which was a lapse on his part. Arthur in his usual fashion was just being dumb muscle without knowing the full scope of his job and what he's getting into just decides business as usual going to work on a man who was clearly frail and weak because the man presents no visible threat and pushes the man closer to deaths doors if not outright killing him because maybe in his mind adding murder to an unpaid debt is justifiable. Now weather the injuries Thomas incurred by Arthur were superficial or had a direct correlation to his already existing illness which lead to his death shortly after is unknown but it's fair game to assume Arthur beating up on him may have done the work. Now to put things into perspective for Arthur fanboys if someone is dying and you do something to push that person into the grave at a faster rate regardless of reasoning regardless of how it's done weather it an injection trauma blunt force or a bullet it still makes you just as much liable to that person's death even if there was no ill intent and even if it was meant to be a Mercy killing you're still liable. Now weather you face prosecution or not is a different discussion all together but from a humane and moral standpoint you are still wrong . Now to put things into context for a better understanding here's a prime example low honor Arthur gets either a bullet to the head or a knife in the back from micha yes Arthur was sick yes Arthur was dying he may have lived a few hours or a few days at best but in this case it was either a bullet to the head that killed him or bloodloss and shock from a stab wound that killed him possibly because he was already weak this is what brought about his death with regards to the stab wound and an instantaneous death with regards to the bullet to the head in those endings thus taking away the natural karmic circle of life away from Arthur. Now some might argue that micha beating up on Arthur in high honor could have been what also killed him but not lets forget that Arthur had just fought against several waves military and Pinkertons not to mention he had a brief grapple and scuffle session with Milton so we could add all that to contributing factors in Arthur's death in high honor. So in conclusion it's mostly Arthur and Strauss and to a degree Thomas's actions that ruined the downes family if Thomas lived long enough like Arthur he could have set something's straight and have a little money left over for his family after his demise had Arthur not pushed him into the grave quicker because we did see Thomas was still out working his land when Arthur rode up on him. It's also Strauss fault for his predatory lending methods And last but not least Arthur as stated before for making Thomas's trip to the grave quicker.

[@CleverRiley9]

You know, i never made the connection between the end slide and it being Archie and Edith, just assumed it was the Gray and braithwaite kids for some reason.

[@Pktommy1]

I mean, you can absolutely kill someone in a fight. It’s easier than you think. Downes could’ve had a concussion for instance.

[@enigma7310]

*The kiss assing for Arthur in these comments are crazy, but if Micah did the same thing to the debt victims yall would had hold nothing back....*

[@redfs7414]

If it wasn’t Arthur it could’ve been Charles. Or Micah. If Strauss hadn’t lent him money another loan shark he couldn’t pay back would have. Thomas Downes destroyed his own family

[@enigma7310]

@@redfs7414 *But if you was Thomas Downes and you were just trying to feed your family in the 1800s where they barely had toilets you will beg to differ, they were desperate, The Vanderlinde gang where just a gang of Vicious outlaws just like the rest of them making lives harder for people than they already were...😂🤷*

[@KentaElZeroM]

I actually felt bad playing through that mission.

[@donnywilliams9494]

In my playthrough, I didn't even hit him, although he shows cuts and bruises. I just threatened him.

[@love_craft6524]

Not Authors fault. It's like blaming the hangman instead of the judge.

[@martinr3993]

On my second playthrough, avoiding Downes for as long as possible until the game forced me, I shot his dog, eat some bulrushes and vomited on his dog, killed and skinned his oxen and all of his pigs. Downes starved because of Arthur second time around. Arthur might have died of TB, but he didn’t have to eat vomit-encrusted dog to survive.

[@sargepent9815]

Downs was severely ill with TB. If Arthur never went after him, he would have lived less than 6 months

[@lexi.j]

I didn't even hit him once during the mission and still got through it

[@gfdrffd3279]

If anything Arthur helped them he got rid of the financially irresponsible Thomas Downs who if anything would drive them further into to debt, and he hook them up with a lot of money in the later chapters

[@buddyfett1341]

Downes is to blame. He's the one that said yes to Strauss.

[@unclesamiam5079]

I blame Thomas Downes solely. He knew he was sick, most likely knew he was dying and took a loan he knew he couldn't pay back from people who wouldn't be keen on no getting the money back. He left his family in a bad way.

[@babaduk7679]

Thank you very much for your video, this is for the people that keep saying, don't ask for money if you can't pay it back, it's easy to say this when you are not in the shoes of the person who is asking, like how Thomas was and Strauss knew that and still exploited that, god forbid that anyone ends up in a situation like that, also I thought that Dutch's group was all about helping those that are shunned and disadvantaged, I guess that's a another lie by Dutch, I am happy that we get a choice to at least help out Thomas's family later, so that his kid doesn't have to suffer in the mines with that crappy foreman and his douchebags, and that his wife doesn't have to sell her body to those assholes, Arthur definitely made a mistake for attacking Thomas in the beginning and yeah he paid for that mistake, as for Strauss, well what can I say about him, he always did like wearing his fancy clothes, while a lot of other people couldn't get their daily bread, atleast he wasn't a rat, and didn't squeal to the Pinkertons

[@ChrisHarmon1]

I saw her when i saved the women in Beaver Hollow, but never again. I must not have gone back to Anne's Burg.

[@bisvizstudio1242]

"I prefer robbing banks over usury. Seems more dignified, somehow." - Dutch van Der Linde

[@40088922]

it really wasn't Arthur's fault, he may have "helped" the family get to rock bottom, but he wasn't the one who didn't think about asking money from a random stranger, he wasn't the family's failed breadwinner and he wasn't the one who put the family into debt, maybe his beating ultimately sped up Thomas' death, but everything else was abound one way or another, including Thomas' death ANYWAYS. it's true what the video says, it's just easier to give misfortune and a dead man's failures a form in Arthur... and I don't even know if I blame Leopold either, he was a loan shark, so he loaned, then he had to collect, "render unto Caesar" and all that, though he really should've chosen his clients better, in all fairness

[@elegrin5170]

In this economical conditions, even NPC's life doesn't be so well..

[@acer-e9f]

i honestly hold the opinion that leopold strauss ruined everybody’s life

[@DRourkey]

They could have improved the downfall so much if they made strauss the secret bread winner the gang relied on where they gave away what they stole to collect high yield interest and Arthur could have known that's the way things are and feels dirty about it, making the collection missions necessary for the gang, but the way it stands strauss doesn't seem like he belongs in the gang to begin with and the one forced collection being the sickness one does dull the story a bit. However this is something I only realized years later

[@archmeister5446]

Well actually he gave them a life not even 10% of people had. He helped the mrs and archibald run businesses (the golf course) so i think he made everything better

[@gabishepherd2379]

Fun fact the rich family you see in the end credits are the Downes

[@AdityaSripathi]

In a way, Arthur saved Edith and Archie Downes. Of course they lost Thomas but if you choose to do the side missions later, you can give them money and save their family. Also, after Arthur's passing, there is a news clipping that shows Edith now owns a golf course which is run by Edith and Archie, and that they have settled down really rich. So in the end, Strauss was initially responsible for Thomas' death but Arthur saved the Downes' Family doing more than Thomas could ever have done!

[@richardalfaro4529]

Hey guys .. actually if u avoide the stranger for dows well it's more like a quick interaction while he is coughing a lot the game gives an entire different storyline and you get the catfish

[@michaelw6277]

I don’t see a scenario where the Downes family wasn’t plunged into to poverty. Thomas was two feet into the grave by the time Arthur met him. If anything it was pretty stupid of Strauss to lend money to someone who was very obviously dying and it was insane of Thomas to take on a loan his wife was going to have to pay. Yeah Arthur maybe shouldn’t have beaten a sick man to death but if Arthur wasn’t a part of this there wouldn’t have been anybody to lift Mrs Downes and her son out of the situation they almost certainly would have found themselves in anyway.

[@iceluvndiva21]

Honestly? I'm glad the game makes it clear that forgiveness, revenge, and Redemption are all choices. Everyone has those choices and their reasons for it.

[@nikolaithewretched8428]

I didn't know that they went from rags to riches in the end

[@20somthingdrifter11]

Strauss's predatory it is lending practices, that much is obvious. On the other hand I placed most of the blame on Thomas Downs himself, the man knows he's dying, he knows his family is in desperate straits, but rather than attempting to do whatever he can to at least get his family on a upward trajectory before he passes, he's spending his time taking out loans and collecting alms for the poor, don't get me wrong charity is a good thing, but just like if you're on an airliner that has trouble you need to assist yourself before assisting others. Thomas should have been worrying about trying to help his family situation first before trying to do all the grandiose gestures that he was working.

[@Lennox1224]

Its not his fault, Downes was dying anyway and his wife would've still turned tricks to get by.

[@channel45853]

We are all gonna die, but that doesn't mean a murderer is excused for rushing the process

[@Angeloading]

murdering someone thats dying doesnt justify it bro lmfaoo

[@shinrugal]

Thomas could have lived another 5=10 years if not for the beating Arthur gave him. Remember that Arthur's disease was accelerated due to his capture and torture by Colm and the shipwreck. Without those events, he still would have been sick, but he would've lived longer before the illness killed him.

[@TPFB129]

Was just going to say that!

[@Lennox1224]

@@Angeloading Nobody said it did, the question was , was it Arthur's fault that the family went broke, and no, it wasnt his fault, the family was already in debt with the bank before Strauss lent them money and Downes was already dying.

[@fairplayer916]

jesus. i can understand everything up to that loan shark forcign the debt onto the family after the debtors death. thats too low. and Arthur is sh*tty for not even arguing in their defense.

[@averagepufferfish5612]

If Arthur didn’t do it, someone else would have.

[@Heisen_burger-dude]

I think the point is that Arthur beat up a person who tried to make the world better while caring for his family and being sick. He couldn't apologies to thomas neither

[@sodamncutestud2]

It wasn’t Arthur’s fault. He was already going to die of TB. Back then, a woman had very few options to financially support herself (let alone kids). She either had to sell herself or learn to hunt, fish, and shoot a gun. They were doomed the moment Thomas contracted TB.

[@FormerlyEpicjcat]

I Think its kinda Dark We can see arthur getting a small bit of downes spit in his mouth really killing him like how maybe arthur stood a few Cm away and arthur solved it probably

[@AidenTan-t4n]

The thanks buddy part is very funny