Is WoW M+ Even Worse NOW?

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[@theannoyedfiremage8721]

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[@Emicu420]

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[@Casualkev_91]

code does not work

[@KageCafe]

The code isnt valid anymore but i mean even without the code I got 60 days for 22 bucks thats a steal!

[@hannya5555]

In general I just feel so empty after completing each m+ dungeon. Difficulty itself is another topic but i feel like completing one and just receiving 50 gold is ridiculous, it cant even cover up a portion of repairing fee, food, elixar, potion and stuff, not a tiny bit. All you work towards that garenteed is the vault's content, in which being a high chance of being something unusable and not worth all the effort put into grinding 8 10 keys per week as an average player. Just make the players get more gold or even just something else to work towards for, like some kinda token or currency for a seperate cosmetic shop. I just hate spending 30 min just feel like Im actually losing things in the end.

[@jeremyhughes-capps9973]

I just got back into wow with The War Within, haven't even made it to endgame yet. Am I cooked?

[@Gonourakuto]

Tbh i feel like they should guarantee loot after every M+ dungeons , you should never complete an M+ and get only gold , there is so many potential items in each and every dungeons its already hard to get the one specific item you want why make it harder by making it that there is a big chance you get nothing at all Maybe make it that its guarantee if you do it in time but if you do it out of time you have a chance to get nothing or something

[@PullupCraft]

@@jeremyhughes-capps9973 Nah, you are not cooked. Delves, raiding, pvp are fun. Mythic plus is just one endgame activity that’s challenge mode 5 people dungeons.

[@jorgeleite9811]

32 run Still no trinket at GB :) So much fun. Too hard to make a currency for every dongeon and at X run you can trade the currency of that dungeon and trade it.

[@Ashidazx]

I feel like if you’re one of the individuals that does not get loot you should get a ton more gold. Honestly, I don’t feel like something like 2K gold is wild. Or even 3. I would legit farm all day on my tank. And the amount of other players who would do the same, who would jump on tanks just to farm gold throughout the entire day would help out so much with queue times… and that’s not even addressing the other things in the video.

[@imXcoolq8]

One of the worst changes ever is the fact now if you stun a mob who is casting they just start immediately casting again. This kills pugs why the fuck was this change made ?!

[@thoriumbrother]

Because aoe stops were way more powerful than interrupts

[@Potatooaim]

@@thoriumbrotherso?

[@al.c.1525]

@@thoriumbrother then revert overall nerf to fucking interrupt timer before they cast again they did this in dragonflight because aoe interrupt+targeted interrupts were simply too strong okay but now you destroy aoe interrupts AND have the nerfed interrupt? how does this check out

[@ronniebrooks9290]

This mf spitting

[@brandonbangs]

there is more to it than this, some serious casts can still be aoe stopped. One example would be the Drust Harvester in Mist, if you aoe stop the Harvest Essence they will cast Spirit Bolt next.

[@COREcasual]

I'll never never why all healers can't dispel all debuff types. It's not interesting or fun, it's just annoying. It just means you limit what class types can do each dungeon.... for no real reason

[@leaverpool8059]

Old mechanic that was never adjusted correctly. Another "legacy" failure...

[@Bashera46]

At higher key levels the curses etc start to become a complete menace. As a Hpala i find myself having to send divine toll for a single target debuff, and if dps dont press defensives properly they are just dead

[@reuterss306]

yeah, I wonder why not simply every class can do everything any other class can. 🙃

[@COREcasual]

@@reuterss306 that's a pretty stupid take

[@TheBagelBunch]

also not every healing class has a b-rez, which should be baseline for all healing specs. Also limits who you bring since you have to have one in every group

[@jonbrown8698]

M+ is a hot pile of trash. You go from Heroics where you cannot learn mechanics because people Zerg bosses, to one shot mechanics in M0. The shrinking of key numbers has crushed any hopes of casuals playing keys. Lower keys were great for casual players that had zero interest in running level 20+ keys.

lower keys are the worst, lol

[@jzbowser]

Yeah but a 20 in DF S3 might have been easier than a 10 in TWW S1. Solely based on affixes and overlap with boss mechanics.

[@thunder9236]

Absolutely true! The difference between normal and heroic is basically null, but the gear required is higher than what normal gives. Then you get to mythic and all of a sudden you're being one shot and new players don't know mechanics.

[@jonbrown8698]

@@thunder9236 shoot I know the mechanics of NW after doing it for so long but it’s still punishing on players.

[@NinO12752]

That was my issue, hots (exaggerated) being enough for 95% in HC to “holy shit what’s going on” in m0, the spike was needlessly large + new mechanics (like the beam in dawn breaker which just don’t happen in Hc) was just the tip and I didn’t want to go any further. Just show me everything that’s happening in HC (in a fashionable manner to LEARN) and adjust the damage accordingly, I was sweating bullet at 580 in m0 stone vault because of new mechanics and the damage (I look at you duo boss) was horrendeous, usually with 10-15ilvl lower than the items received was more that enough to go by. In the past I went to all mystics and learn the mechanics before venturing forth, but like this? No way, this first time adventure was more than enough to stop going mystic At least I learned my personal limit, I raid in HC and play PvP again after a long time.

[@Areyouserious42]

As a healer, i always think of that sentence in a bluepost, "we want to reduce the cognative load for players in m+", when i'm running in a circle, while dispelling 2 mates and pumping hps because of giga group dmg event at the same time. But hey, we want is not we are going to, right? 😅

[@briantown6716]

Played Mythic+ from Legion up to this current season for every season. Seasons in the past had issues but they were overall fun and you could pug them pretty easily to get both your teleports and your gear...this season had me quit. There's no reason why they need to gate keep a single piece of mythic loot from the vault ONCE PER WEEK, behind the same level of mythics that reward the teleports to the dungeons which were a cosmetic fun progression later in the season for people not pushing crazy hard and just enjoying themselves. No you need a premade mythic group to really stand a chance, yes there are pugs able to do it but far far less then previous seasons and the fact that the crazy key pushers are also citing just how bad the pug scene is is telling enough.

[@jethrodark2372]

Idk why Mythic gear can't come from M+ itself, like drop from 12s or something. The Vault system to me has always sucked. I always end up getting the same slot of gear drop from vault. Idk to me after the second week of Vault it becomes useless and only good for sockets.

[@Kaybris]

I main a healer MW Monk. It's the worst m+ season ever. In past expansions I would do m+ for fun. In "The War Within" I don't even feel like logging in to do m+. All the dungeons are not fun to do, most mechanics are annoying and unforgiving, and no matter how well you play as a healer or a tank, the whole run can be ruined by one DPS player. On top of that 9/10 runs I get 0 loot. For me there is no incentive to do any m+ - it's not fun, it's not rewarding, and it's just too stressful. And since all I did in WoW was m+, there is now no incentive for me to stay subscribed and continue playing WoW. It's like Blizzard is on purpose trying to ruin M+ experience so more people do raids and the weekly time-gated content. All it's going to do is make m+ enjoyers quit the game.

[@sparta1821]

m+ just sucks as a long term concept it's not healthy for the game. it turns wow into an arpg like diablo which it isnt, the strength lies in the rpg elements they need to focus. maybe a full reset or wow 2 after the last titan expansion otherwise i dont see it

[@Griggoh]

@@sparta1821How exactly does it make WoW become more like Diablo. I played only casually since Mists of Pandaria and this is the first Expansion I’m doing M+ and I’m so glad this game is so grindy. It literally took me one expanded weekend to complete everything you could do in the last season of Diablo (the one before Vessel of Hatred). I wish Diablo was harder to “complete” your character. Haven’t played the citadels yet but WoW is definitely giving me something at the moment that Diablo isn’t: a decent challenge to improve myself.

[@akinbobolaz]

Do lower keys. That is literally what the system was intended for. These clown comments

[@sparta1821]

@@Griggoh Oh god i dont mean it makes it like the literal diablo game just the genre. Action rpg not an mmo rpg in its true essence

[@armagedoc66]

​@@akinbobolaz no pushing keys then?

[@alexanderclark9227]

I'll give my standpoint as someone who is not casual in mythic+. I main a ret paladin, 626 and 2.5k io. I have done nearly 300 keys since the season started already. I usually get into whatever keys I apply to. Getting to this point has been a drastic undertaking. My friends and I have made a habit of starting out each season getting mythic gear in the vault of week 1. Now, there is only a couple of us that can do 10s. And it took me nearly 50 keys before finally getting up to a 10. These dungeons are not forgiving for the smallest mistakes. This is a failure on blizzard's part. Because of the requirement of these dungeons, it gatekeeps many players from being able to obtain anything close to mythic gear. Blizzard has a growing fan base for the first time in 5 years. When new players come into the mythic+ scene, they are met with elitist mentality and discouraged from pushing keys without being one of two things: perfect at their class and/or being the meta class. No game should require this of their players. Every bit of content should allow room for learning. What was good about the previous seasons was that if keys required perfection, then players would do +25s and higher. Or in the case of season 4 of dragonflight, it would be +15s and higher. But the kind of skill that someone would need for a 15 is now required in +7 and higher. Which is a drastic difference and a fatal error for player retention. Blizzard needs to fix this if they want any hope of keeping their growing player base.

[@speedbump9299]

Thank you for this because its exactly what is going on. The squish actually accentuated this problem even more then what it was before.

[@maxitgames]

@@alexanderclark9227 In what sense should the mechanics be forgiving? Do you not learn to not stand in that swirley if you die to it? Do you not learn to have a cooldown ready for the aoe cast from the special mob if you died to it? Blizzard has played their cards perfectly this season. People are getting a reality check and I love it. We have had m+ since legion. Its about time people learn that standing in stuff is bad. Its really not that hard.

[@maxitgames]

@@speedbump9299 No, its litterally forcing good habbits. People need to actually stop and take a look at what killed them, not just zerg through.

[@Shotzeethegamer]

PvE is incredibly easy.

[@sammmba]

if a game requires a player to be perfect no mistakes, it's not a game

[@estebanslavidastic4382]

One of my biggest gripes is the amount of gilded crests to get nascent. 90?! Too much. That’s 8 TIMED dungeons. When you consider that pugging groups fall apart as soon as it’s likely it won’t time, that’s a hefty order. I think a few changes would be really good: 1) nascent gilded crests cost 60 , or 75 crests instead of 90. 2) buff some underperforming specs so that the meta is much more competetive. ATM, frost dk, arcane mage, augmentation, guardian/prot warrior, and resto shaman make up most high level keys. Don’t nerf these specs. Buff other specs, INCREMENTALLY. Why would you ever take a resto Druid when resto shaman can do everything they can, but better? Why would you ever take a brewmaster or prot Paladin when they melt compared to warriors or guardians? 3) rewards from chest need to scale linear with dungeon difficulty. Loot caps out at +9, at 613 ilevel, and vault caps out at +10. Why? Why should a +14 not give a 626 piece at the end, with a 636 vault? Ur doing the hardest content, give the best rewards. 613 ilevel chest for a +10 is a JOKE, when most groups won’t look at you unless you’re 620+. It creates a system where you need gear to get invited, but you neee to get invited to get gear. For non meta classes you basically stand no chance pugging.

[@KOHoxton]

lets also consider the fact that some classes just attract morons and should be avoided a majority of the time, almost all of my keys have been flatlined by either healers or tanks that lose their minds at random, i've had two players since reset send me dox/death threats after we TIMED the dungeons lmfao.

[@dashvash5440]

It's crazy, I'm new but still ilvl 612 from Delves, Normal Raids, a bit into Heroic, and Vaults. I am pretty close to maxing on Runed Crests and looking at the stress of getting Gilded Crests as a DH (or any class if theyre new to dungeons like me) is awful. The rewards don't seem to be commiserate with the difficulty spike except for the Gilded Crests which are, frankly, weirdly out of reach. I feel like they missed some tiers of difficulty to facilitate learning (like LFR to Normal isn't very good prep). Mainly the way the set up the Mythic + system creates a really sweaty/tryhard environment, which kinda sucks for PUGs, learning, non meta specs, etc. Maybe reward someone who is 2500 rated for doing a +3 key with someone rated 500 instead of punishing them. The 500 gets either a little or a lot of experience from a good player and the good player doesn't get punished for giving it a go and trying to help out. Mentor keys? Mentor tokens? I dunno something.

[@ai_serf]

i love the idea of not nerfing a meta, but slowly incrementing other classes. this is good game design, unfortuantely blizz will do the opposite.

[@hellzpawn1751]

whoever was the dev in blizzard and those top 3% content creator's clowns that played the alpha, the beta and never gave feedback and thought that challenger's affix was fun or good for the community are completely clueless, and Blizzurd should stop catering for those clowns that never PUG or do keys with randoms, is a pain to see a mostly good run one random error in a boss or bad interrupt wipe -7 minutes key depleted everyone leaves.... is depressive and trash

[@SouthernDrinkSlinger]

THIS! Stop catering to the top 1%. Who cares if they complain they have to push a key to 32... yall are the best, get to pushing. Who cares what gear other players have? So what they have the same ilvl gear as you, you're the best right? You'll still do higher content. I feel like this season of M+ was trashed simply because they turned their back on the 90% of m+ players to make the top 10 happy.

[@Bashera46]

@@SouthernDrinkSlinger top players are literally complaining about challengers peril as well btw

[@nickandreyev766]

Boo hoo I forgot to keybind my kick and died 15 times in 5 minutes, but I still expect to time keys and get loot

[@SouthernDrinkSlinger]

@@nickandreyev766 lol I respect the troll coming from a 1200io 🤣

[@michaelmoran2125]

Its that and the no affix variety at 12+ idk the beta testers just flopped this time. ​@Bashera46

[@STARSHIPTROOP]

This is possibly the worst week ever for M+. Sanguine wasn't even this bad. Tyrannical plus many bosses leave a area of denial & then we must kill ourselves to grab balls so they don't touch the boss. What a brilliant idea ... not.

[@RGSMANIA]

You are just playing it wrong but this is the only second time you are playing it, I'm sure people we get smarter about it

[@slymcfly123]

​@RGSMANIA 😅. Some bosses like Skarmarak put AoE circles around themselves, some bosses like 2nd boss Ara have an entire circle around them, some bosses do frontals, some bosses like first boss in Grim have 3/4 of the floor dps can go in or are 1 shot, some bosses like last boss in Ara everyone is actually stuck in place, some bosses like last boss in City have balls that block the orbs or AoE stomp that denies people and I can keep going. What you said was foolish.

[@liamdavies2823]

@@slymcfly123 it definitely spawns at unintuitive times sometimes. the best way around this would be just slow down the speed of the orbs so we have more time to collect and literally just code it not to spawn during certain mechanics. and if they can't do that, just rework it

[@AdamTreier]

Orbs spawning during the waves on the third boss of siege? Guess we deplete.

[@Light_910]

@STARSHIPTROOP in the past, blizz hotfixed fights so that the mechanics and affixes wouldn't be so catastrophic, but with every season they take 3 steps forward and 2 steps back... it's ridiculous. I healed a few today and I'm done with it. No thanks. I'm not a tryhard, I got 2k, and I'm out. 0 gear from m+ by the way, all delves and delve vaults. M+ is such a waste of time now.

[@d4mephisto]

I've been playing WoW since the very first week of the game's launch back in 2004. I've been saying this for about 10 years now, and I'm gonna keep saying it: WoW is at its peak when Blizzard errs on the side of making the game "easier" rather than more difficult. Making M+ hard is a mistake, and gatekeeping Myth track gear like they have is a bad choice. The dungeons are overtuned, and Blizzard is taking way too long to deliver the nerfs to dungeons that they need. On top of all of that, the 15 second death timer is ridiculous and needs scaled back to 10 seconds per death, or even back to the standard 5. Just remove that altogether. This is a video game. Let it be fun and rewarding for the average player. Blizzard is way too focused on this game being competitive. It's an MMO. Let it just be FUN. They are completely missing the boat.

[@brandonbangs]

Why does everyone have to have Mythic track gear? Does everyone have Tier 3 sets in Classic?

[@bukakabarabaka]

​@@brandonbangs sure, current situation is perfectly fine, when even try hards complain about m+ and more and more leave m+ and game cause its not fun. And for many people gearing is fun. And yes, this is videogame your achievements in it is fake and dont worth anything. So stop gatekeeping, its not good for game.

[@kurrwa]

WoW is not super hard game really, sunday players can't get good so they crying hard xD

[@beebeemw]

If you’re an average player you shouldn’t be getting the best gear, nor do you need it. If it’s too easy people complain, if it’s too hard people complain.

[@maxitgames]

​​@MurdogYT Mechanics really isnt that hard in retail. They are more punishing sure, but that is a good thing. Once you have broken the mirror and started to understand the setups of the packs, how the bosses rotate spells and so on, the game becomes mindnumbingly easy. As a healer main all i need to do for every dungeon is learn the damage timelines and what abilities needs to be interupted. If we die on a pack, its 10000% my fault OR something wasnt interupted. And so far, there isnt a single pack in any of the dungeons that isnt easy once you interupt correctly. Meaning its mindnumbingly easy. Same with bosses, learn the ability timelines, adjust cooldowns accordingly. Rediculously easy. If this DIDNT exist, most m+ runners would have quit ages ago. Its simply to easy. For me: i know im gonna have a hard time if i go blind into a dungeon. Same should apply for any casual who didnt do any research on dungeons and bosses. Blizzard has done an incredible Job with m+ so far.

[@manuakasam]

Blizzard utterly killed the Mythic+ community with every single change they did. I wouldn't write too much, as that would lead into a wall of text, but here's the excerpt (that's in part at least summed up in the video): - difficulty level too high - player community too bad at the game - reward structure of M+ sucks hardcore - reward structure of delves completely killed the rewards of lower keys - death timer punishment in higher keys is absurd - reward punishment (upgrade token) for completing a key out of time is ridiculous - reward incentive for finishing under time (+2, +3) is non existent anymore - +15 seconds punishment for a single missed kick, GG - healers have way too much responsibility - damage profiles of some bosses are very much skewed towards instant heal healers, not so much a HoT'er like my druid - soul link totem is utterly broken and deserves removal from the game - M+ is the most insane gold sink there is - Timers on Dungeons are incredibly imbalanced (look at Stonevault vs. Necro Wake) Necro is so goddamn easy and Stonevault doesn't forgive a single mistake What bugs me the post is the punishment aspect of M+. Once a wipe happens, I leave the group.It is NOT WORTH MY TIME to run a key outside of the timer. It just isn't. If we already have a few deaths prior to the first boss and then we wipe once, they key is done. Period. WHY??? WHY BLIZZARD???? THE DIFFICULTY SHOULD BE A CHALLENGE AND NOTHING ELSE. Why is beating the TIMER the actual challenge. Beating the timer should enable you to go a level higher but it shouldn't be the requirement for the rewards of the dungeon. Those goddamn brainiacs at ACTIVISION are likely at fault here. More player hours invested. FUN isn't a metric. I seriously just want the following: - completely remove the concept of +1, +2, +3ing a dungeon. FINISHING "im time" should be the only goal - every single boss of a M+ drops an item (the endboss would drop them accumulated) - more loot for pleryers - no more punishment of token returns for a dungeon out of time, not getting an upgraded keystone is punishment enough - no additional death penalty starting +7 or +8, 5 seconds is enough - ADDITIONAL REWARD FOR FINISHING A DUNGEON NOT IN TIME (think: 1x vantus rune for each) - Linear upgrade path for items (once i hae the BiS item I wanna be able to upgrade it to the max, SCREW "champ"/"hero"/"myth" track bullshit So in short: I want it all changed. I will get nothing of my change requests. I'll be done with my 3 month pass expiring. Once again Blizzard failed to keep me in the game. GG WP

[@ravinjor]

the challengers Afix is killing it, nothing like doing a 10 wiping 1 time on a boss and being like "welp keys dead"

[@JimSmith-g2d]

Yep, they fixed most of it but this needs to go.

[@skulltula2159]

It really is that brutal. Wiping on a boss with tyrannical in play is 75 second penalty on top of the multiple minutes of the fight you have to redo. And then the run back on top. It’s just absolutely catastrophic and feels horrible knowing one slip up there represents all the time fighting the queue to get a group or grinding your key plus the time in the run and that’s it in the bin.

[@thisismychannel607]

Lol ive literally seen elitists say "challengers affix only applies if u die" like every run they do is just a flawless victory, like u shouldn't be able to time a key if there's a wipe. I absolutely loathe the wow playerbase

[@lightner6924]

Wow seems to want to make things harder but not more fun. I kinda find that a little strange.

[@manuakasam]

This has nothing to do with the affix though. It is all about the punishment systems for not timing a key. BLIZZARD killed this. Not the affix.

[@scenejack]

I had a debate with my friend about the amount of mechanics in TWW. For example last boss in Ara kara: You have to dodge white circles on the ground, you have to dodge blobs running around an stunning you, you can only get free by silencing or stunning them, you have to enter a pool every time he soaks the group after you have to silence or stun the mob again, inbetween you get poison on you which does massive dmg and if you dispell it or get dispelled there are 2 waves of posion coming from you killing each other member of the group and you have to dodge 8 waves of posion going through the area, meanwhile you have to hit mobs so that they leave puddles on the ground for the soak. Blizzard: "We do like mechanics"

[@Xakanis]

You forgot that you have to remember how long a black pool has been on the ground. If you step into a pool that has been around for 20+ seconds, there is a chance the root will fade as the boss' one shot black hole mechanic goes off. Fun game.

[@metsfan1932]

@@Xakanis As long as the black blood mob spawns, you wont lose the circle.

[@Its-Eywa]

They need to add something to balance the affix on deaths, I'd say add a mechanic that adds time on the key If you do something good as a team like "If you consecutively interrupt 3-5 times in a row you gain 30 seconds". For one it will reward people and teach people to use interrupt more, and two it will be less punishing for making a mistake and having the key completely bricked and wasting time.

[@sunderwire]

Or just add better respawn points so we don’t gotta run back for 2+ mins

[@GoinginsanefromFUT]

​@@sunderwire GB run backs as blood dk😂

[@dashvash5440]

No reward only punish.

[@ThegreatCMFB]

The simple reason I am not enjoying M+ is the dungeons all suck. There's not a single dungeon I go, "Oooooh I'm excited to run this"

[@evananthony4506]

100%

[@MegamanX400]

Damn, not even mists?? Might be time to play another game if you think every dungeon sucks

[@ZeroiusProduction]

@@MegamanX400 People have different likes and dislikes when it comes to dungeons, i agree with OP that no dungeon feels fun, they're all shite (imo) but that's just me personally, i never liked mist, it's free AF but it's also boring AF too.

[@alihorda]

​@@MegamanX400mist is one of the worst with lots of RP and downtimes

[@Thomas-hh3iv]

For me it could be Mists, but Mistcaller on tyrannical is pug killer so I learned to fear it

[@commonsense82]

For the average player getting gear 9 ilvl below the top gear shouldn't be such a chore. These players need power gain to keep them engaged. As it stands now this isn't remotely possible. I don't see a problem with people paying for the monthly subscription getting higher gear more easily. It may be that the sweats are scared the will be outplayed if an average joe has 9 ilvl less than them.

[@prithwishroy1984]

13 item level

[@ezunino1711]

exactly my thoughs i wonder why the sweatlords are so scared of everyone getting near their ilvl, arent they supposed to be good because of their "skills"?? or are they only doing good because the can waste all of their time grinding high level gear?

[@fredxu99]

I think it's too many changes in one direction. They made everything harder, not just survivability. They did: - Tanks rely more on healers - Damage is more lethal in general - CCs no longer stop casts - Casts are more deadly, so missing a kick is more punishing - More complex boss mechanics that require a lot more coordination than before - 15s death penalty means 1 wipe = dangerously close to not timing the key, further compounds previous issues of the mechanics being more punishing - Fort and Tyrannical show up together in +10 or higher - Gear comes later in the M+ progression than in previous seasons (need equivalent of +20 for vault, +19 for final crest) All of these changes move in the same direction: they make everything harder. Half a dozen or more changes that make the game harder, that compound on top of one another, and you get this, a season that feels impossible unless you're playing perfectly.

[@rhombodazzle9700]

Every season of dragonfly I managed to get keystone master and hero on multiple characters....... This season I'm very content with running fours and sixes and not pushing 3K or even 2.5 for that matter

[@vanguelisk]

i m at 1900 ,tried a few +7s this week all disbanded ,had ksh last 3 DF Seasons :(

[@al.c.1525]

@@vanguelisk i had over 3k on all seasons this expansions put way more responsibility on less played roles also damage spike nerf is a big cap there is almost no difference and if you are playing tank do 1 thing wrong in a pull and you are basically instantly dead :D other than that your hp is forever max? see this is what i mean cds are too strong and active mitigations are too weak resulting in spikiest damage profile for tanks and also now almost every boss is like halls of infusion third boss with spiky damage added which in turn makes some classes almost unfit for m+ (restoration druid) and some classes gods (disc and restoration shaman)

[@Impuracle]

If I'm capable of earning Gilded Crests, why can't I simply upgrade my Adventurer-grade item all the way to Mythic? What's the point of limiting how far items can be upgraded when Crests are the skill check?

[@That_kind_of_orc]

It's really bad atm, in df S4 I had 2900 rating so I know how m+ works but anyway yesterday I ran 7 times 5-6 difficulty keys and every group fell apart and we failed all the 7 keys that's not normal and sure some people suck in m+ but in df it didn't mean we didn't have a chance to complete the key

[@metsfan1932]

Start your own group. Joining other people's groups is how people get into these situations.

[@stitchloverboy]

2,900 s4 DF is like 2,300 this season, so you're in the right spot

[@philburmeister3427]

I think 5-7 keys is a very bad threshhold right now where you get a lot of players who simply aren't good enough to do those keys but think they are since its "only" a 5. Played at your rating in S1 and 2 in df and there the worst keys were the 15s while you would get much better players in 20s hence a better experience with m+. I mean this season I failed a few 5s miserably but +2 a few 7s. It always depends on your team.

[@brandonbangs]

happens every expansion people play the last season of the previous one which is hyper inflated with power and gear and then they wonder why the new expansion is so hard lol

[@VDHmain]

2900 in S4 is not a high score at all. I'm not a very good player, took most the season off and was at 3200 at the end. You are right where you should be. You should consider adding people you vibe with in keys and playing with the same people consistently; makes M+ much more fun. Also, stop applying to groups, make your own.

[@Tyrownious]

If they want to up the difficulty then sure that’s fine but you can’t also simultaneously keep the rewards low. The incentive to push outside of doing 1 - 10 a week for the gear in a vault a week is extremely low. Meanwhile you can walk away from an 8 boss raid with all vault slot rewards plus worth while same level drops in the raid. While doing 8 dungeons and maybe getting 1 drop that’s a worthless track you don’t even need or want. Meaning the only reason to do m+ is maybe a vault reward 1 item a week which will cause burn out at a rapid rate and that 1 item a week might not even be something you want or need making it even more discouraging. To a point this might be the first season where I got my rating now I’m gonna just walk away rather than continue

[@helodiejacquelin3715]

This expansion is a scam, blizzard need to use difficulty and an unrewarding looting system to make players stay longer. No respect to players' time, still that old shitty blizzard 😅

[@ruairidhkoch7875]

The ting I hate the most in M+ is how FAST you die. Example: LEGION Warlock Demon skin was 20% hp + 1% recharge. War within Warlock DS = 10% with a silly 0.2% recovery!

[@sockmonkey3393]

The problem is they upped the tuning but increased the amount of work a healer and tank have to work. It used to be the healer would heal 4 people and sometimes help the tank.

[@Robin...222]

A tank shouldnt be a healer. So this is perfect rn.

[@akinbobolaz]

The problem is your not a good player

[@al.c.1525]

i feel like its still the same even over 10s and im not a blood dk this expansion is just more careful cooldown usage and planning for tanks u gotta find a decent tank but then again its almost impossible :D so idk overall tanks seem to do more damage while pressing defensives thanks to hero talents but i feel like this is less fun than dragonflight since majority of damage talents from dragonflight are simply useless (rip raze you will be missed and ravage will never take your place) and also i think healer cooldowns have gotten way stronger coming from dragonflight so again careful cd usage for healers i believe this puts specs on par in terms of skill BUT the player base playing those specs do not match the skill requirement so this makes a very odd bell curve resulting in decent players being less than 10% of almost 10%

[@SouthernDrinkSlinger]

@@Robin...222 You're right, a tank should be a tank. We should be able to take damage. Relying on a healer is a terrible design & it shows!

[@skoomd4447]

@@al.c.1525 get in a bad group thats not kicking and using cc and welp your screwed as a healer, nothing you can do and if you make it past one pack now you have no cooldowns for the next and your all dead

[@AmanitaMuscarias]

I play all healers; my r.shaman is so overpowered in comparison to all my other healers, w/ r.druid being last or second to last w/ holy priest. Affixes seem to be made for r.shaman ( like devour Affix being cleared by 45 sec poison cleansing totem), bursty damage being dealt with by incap totem, thunder knock up, & need for actual interrupt (windshear being ranged). Also, my r.shaman can drop healing tide totem & spam healing surge or chain heal on top of cool down. As example, my r.druid cannot channel tranquility & cast regrowth at the same time. TLDR; my r.shaman has multiple good dev changes each time for tree talents, tier bonuses, hero trees, etc. Every step of the way for changes on my r.druid is the exact opposite, bad changes & nerfs. Pls give priest a interrupt.

[@maxitgames]

@@AmanitaMuscarias Try holy paladin, they poop on shamans. Bacon of virtue perfectly aligns with any and all aoe cast in all the dungeons. Making most fights rediculously easy.

[@blalhoihreuf]

Poison cleanse totem got nerfed to a two minute cooldown now.

[@trancer03]

So like 15% of players are able to get gilded crests. and 85% of players are stuck with 619 gear the rest of the season. GG Blizzard that was fast lol.

[@mikestevens2813]

yea, on top of that. aint it like 90 fuckin crests to get an enchanted gilded?

[@nathanmccormack6549]

I’m stuck at 619 and tbh, can’t be bothered even trying anymore this season

[@RaAaAwrsyourEye]

df all over again for non raiders... though at least this time said 15% can get gear on par with mythic raid gear... kinda

[@joshphilbs98]

Make your own key

[@mcvei]

​​@@joshphilbs98 bla bla bla, seems like u didnt even watch the video. Even doing ur ow key is a god damn too hard of a struggle: 1. guess u got a key nobody wants to do, like CoT. 2. Waiting hours for a tank, not even starting to think about a healer and then 3. getting atleast "ok" DPS to not fuck up your run on 3rd boss because its waaaaay to hardly tuned. 4. You did your own key, not even getting any loot out of it, nor the suitet crests to atleast upgrade your gear 5. After hours of ppaying now, you are gifted with 5 crests you dont need, no valor stones, since you are capped, and 10 more grey hairs. There is only one word for this system: BROKEN. And if your are unable to see this, you are just a denier of facts.

[@reakdx8692]

Curse and antipoison being so dominantly present whilst half healers being unable to interact with them is really bad for the game. theres a reason r1 priest is running evoker + shaman as dps in order to cope with that alone. The imbalance caused just from lack of utility is concerning.

[@chessiecat7860]

That’s the point of having different debuffs. If every healer could deal with every type of debuff you might is well not cause them poison,disease,curse etc and that’s boring as hell. Modern game is already streamlined enough.

[@maxitgames]

@@reakdx8692 That is litterally called fixing the issue. He saw his weakness and fixed it. How it is intended.

[@reakdx8692]

@@maxitgames Well exactly thats the problem. The playerbase shouldnt fix/ circumvent design issues by essentially narrowing down the viable compositions to a point where artifically scarce utility determines if your comp is viable. The debuff category "disease" is almost unused or not nearly as fatal yet decursing/antipoison in some dungeons can prevent dotticks of up to 2mio dmg/tick in 10+ keys by a mere gcd whereas others have to heal through. Its an imbalanced design that leads to a narrowing down possible class compositions and is a driving factor for discrimating against inviting certain classes.

[@reakdx8692]

@@chessiecat7860 Not if the curses impacts are so extremely punishing. Its not interesting in the sense that its not like "oh you outsmarted that mechanic" - its rather a "did you bring x class" checkbox. Similar to BL and CR it will affect the rate at which the class you play is invited - even with their respective consumables present. Looking at boralus where the tank tales 15%more dmg/stack etc. Or the stacking curse in SV that can tick 2/3mio per tick is way too much weight thats being reliefed on a single gcd. Those giga dangerous mechanics should be magic. curses, disease, poison can and should have a place - yet a less oppressive one.

[@Bashera46]

@@chessiecat7860 the fact that one healer can deal with all the relevant debuffs, and another cannot deal with any of them this season is completely unacceptable from a Balance perspective

[@Harrowing999]

The difficulty spike in dungeons and healing is fine, the Challenger’s Bounty affix is absurd. Losing 5 seconds on a death is fair. A key broken on one wipe is just unfair.

[@alexandrupetrea8267]

Especially a +10-11 key. These shouldn't be high end keys. These are weekly keys.

[@sipi725]

It is not fine :D it is annoying and sucking the fun out of m plus. The affix is the final nail in the coffin

[@r_e046]

@@alexandrupetrea8267 Are +10-11 keys not high end keys now, with the difficulty squish they did? The highest level keys being run right now are +13-14. A +11 is definitely high end. That's like a +18/19 from previous expansions right? Correct me if i'm wrong, but I think the difficulty squish has made a deep impact, and we still tend to view them from a previous expansion's perspective.

[@matterdeann]

healing is far from fine

[@kurrwa]

@@r_e046 high key i would only consider 20+ in the past, less than 20 is average/good below 10 are for losers. 10s feels like 20+ now and I'm fine with it. but most people SUCKS so badly at M+ you can't even finish dungeon not mentioning the leavers. puging is dead for me

[@TheDumplingOrc]

I don’t understand why they keep pushing difficulty = fun. Because it isn’t.

[@pascalwagner92]

It can be without the idiots from the pug group. In our guild we just laugh about a wipe and try again.. i allways say there's a new key after that dungeon f it :D

[@gavin3895]

Go play a single player game if you’re scared of a challenge - it’s the same for everyone

[@TheDumplingOrc]

@@gavin3895single player games have challenges and can be challenging too. What I’m saying is most of the population doesn’t even manage to play their end game fully because it’s too much. Don’t be an elitist jerk.

[@TheDumplingOrc]

@@pascalwagner92my main issue is mechanic stacking, there’s too much going on for it to be enjoyable.

[@RGSMANIA]

​@@TheDumplingOrcif you make it easier then there won't be any challenge in the end game other than mythic raids which eww no thank you. Maybe you should just stick to delves if m+ is too much cognitive load? It's all end game it's just about finding your level and if you don't enjoy the cognitive load then go delves.

[@heavy_elite]

This Video compiles the current ISSUES for whats wrong with Mythic+ PERFECTLY... I feel like, due to the Tanks being more squisher, than in S3 of Dragonflight, I feel less and less happy about Tanking in Mythic Pug runs. There were definitely other ways to make certain things better. But nerving Tank-CDs for the sake of putting 50% more Stress on the Heal, so that we Tanks survive WAS NOT the solution. In DF I was never afraid to go into Mythic+, like in S2 - 16, 17, 18, 19... Or in S3, 20, 21, 22s... Now I am even afraid to go into a Simple 2, cause the Stress isn't even worth it. I rather do level 8 Delves SOLO, rather to go into M+. Do the Raid on Heroic, where the final 2 Bosses drop the highest Crests and are on Farm status, rather than, dilly-dallying around with 4 random strangers, I know for 5 minutes and get flamed by, for making a mistake, not playing the most-min-maxed-route the HIGH END - M+ players play in the MDI and so on. No... Brann and me feel PREEEEETTY damn comfortable in the WATERWORKS. We both like it here, very well.

[@DilzwieldKing]

As a healer (hpal), the damage is WAY too high on the party. My heals don't feel strong enough and I'm using GCDs and cooldowns just to keep the party alive. Not only that, this season has a lot of poisons and magic debuffs for some reason that I'm constantly on the watch to dispell. Healing just doesn't feel fun... I loved it back in Shadowlands (and in other MMOs), but I'm so disinterested to do it rn 😥

[@Cosmicllama64]

It's like Blizz is actively trying to make healing unfun. Spike damage on the tank - let us focus on the god damn tank to heal. Spiking damage constantly across all players combined with constant micro-cc makes healing deeply frustrating and unfulfilling. Every fight feels like a random chance on if we're going to survive.

[@sere971]

Yeah, it's honestly made me stop being interested in the game. I only started in 8.3 so 4 1/2 years ago but I've enjoyed healing every single patch since then until now. I'm glad that some people are happy with how healing has gotten much more difficult... But it just does not feel fun to me when trying to knock out vault keys. I would consider myself a pretty good resto druid-- not top of the line or anything but I usually could heal up to +14-15s(24-25s pre-squish and flirted with some 26s in s3) but even just trying to do +10s feels more stressful than fun now, and it's killed all my motivation to continue even if I'm capable of doing them. Progging mythic broodtwister makes me feel the same. Is this really what people find fun? Really? Getting locked on a mid-raid boss for weeks while wrestling with weakauras and taking 100-150+ pulls to kill a boss that's easier than the next 3 bosses? It all just feels like an overly difficult waste of time and it's pushing me out of the PvE content space that I've enjoyed for years. I guess the elitists would say I'm just not good enough... but with how many healers have been complaining about having this exact same issue, I hope Blizzard realizes that they pushed it a bit too far towards an unfun level of challenge too early in the M+ journey. Vault filling is annoying at +10s because of the difficulty, and pug io pushers are locked out at +12s still so most people barely have any room to progress through M+ in a reasonable amount of time.

[@gentle_singularity]

What I find funny is that Blizz ramped up poisons, curses, diseases, etc. while also nerfing all classes self healing. It literally made no sense and now they are backtracking on a lot of these nerfs like usual.

[@Hadesxo027]

Its gonna be a long one, therefore if you read it till the end, thanks.Been a long time key pusher (3.3-3.7k in 9 seasons, with being 3.7k last 2 seasons). I have always participated in PTR beta M+, since even though Blizzard showed no interest in actually listening, eventually everything got fixed. The main difference is that the previous expansions and initial changes gave enough headroom. Here is my take on why this season sucks 1. Too early release: Every expansion feels more and more rushed, but imho TWW was super scuffed in this aspect. Blizzard wanted to improve m+ and until a few months a completely different set of affixes were to be introduced (bleed dmg profile increase by 30%, etc). Then players hated it and around 1 month before full release Blizzard reworked it from 0. I cannot express how rushed and how unprofessional this is. 2. Difference in gearing: Blizz changed many things, but in my opinion the worst they could have done was a.) acquiring HC gear vs crests: you get HC gear, but still, to upgrade it currently: 8 / previously: 9 keys needed to be done. I believe subconsciously Blizz wanted to "revive" +9s since even in SL and DF +9 (19) was the level nobody wanted to do. A 10 is supposed to be for end content, not for filling up your vault if you want normal loot. If you do a 3 is essentially the same as +9 from vault's perspective. b.) the difference between max HC in TWW S1 vs DF 2-4 is huge. A max HC gear (6/6) is 626 while the maximum ilvl you can get from vault is 639. This means that while relying on RNG you are going to lack 13 ilvl. You can fill the gap slowly by crafting - although that certainly requires a lot of $$ considering how much mats cost.. c. ) (this is a solution) a 12-13 key should drop mythic track loot. There should be some sort of pgoression. You do high key? - you get bigger reward. Even if you do a 15 the loot you get is the same you get from +8. Hurrah I guess. not everyone wants to do mythic raiding. Personally I used to do mythic raiding, but I left because my raiding enthusiasm relies on good raids. I feel that Castle Nathria was the pinnacle of raiding and I didn't enjoy anything after. Usually I just did my full HC clears for trinketc and BiS gear but thats all. 3. Whole group relies on healer way too much and tanks cannot survive enough: I'm perfectly aware there is no perfect system. if healing is not required then you get careless healers who do suboptimal healing but dps-ing. If you nerf the survivability then your healer has way too big impact. There are so many things happening (CC-s, interrupts, healer checks) that it genuily discourages anyone from having pure fun. Blizzard said that the tank nerfs shouldn't influence tanking that tanks need to kite. Well, idk about you guys, but 9/10 tanks I play NEED to kite, otherwise they would die. In the below point I'm going to explain the main issue (pulling big and risking vs pulling small and not timing) , but tanks just cannot pull bigger to make up for the higher difficulty / more optimal kills. Also, while a healer needs to keep up the group (from dying), the pace of the run relies on a tank. There must be some harmony between these 2 which in a pug content its often not available. Being a tank or healer is an extremely ungrateful role and I can only appraise those who decide to still do it. 4. 7s are too punishing, 12s are overtuned: Your average player who may be able to do 7s will face a huge bump in difficulty, since 1 death will essentially mean that you lose 3 deaths based on prior death penalty + walking back. A full wipe on lower difficulty is not key-breaking, however on higher level (12+) 1 full wipe means usually the end of the key. I dont know about this, but as a person who was clearing 19-20s (29-30) I clearly remember being able to time certain keys even after a semi-wipe / full wipe. Not saying that should happen in that range, but I also believe it shouldn't happen that one wipe will just do the job. The sad reality is that 12 and higher keys are signifcantly more difficult (still) than 11s. You may ++ an 11 key and barely able to finish a 12. Its because a 12 feels like a 13.5 (instead of 2-2.5 keystone level higher after nerfs). You also lose the kiss-curse affix bonus which as much as its annoying it helps the group. On 12 and above you need to pull much riskier, because if you dont, then you just wont time the key, but if you do, then you may risk wiping. 5. Blizz changes for CC-s: Previously a CC was a full stop, now a CC literally just "stops temporarily" the cast, because you need to interrupt it for actually stopping the cast. What sort of bs is this? At least - just as you did Blizz with afflicted - if someone interrutps and another person interrupts on the top, then reset the "wasted" interrupt. - Another solution. 6. Timer nerfs: Why on earth did you nerf timers? Solution: revert it. Look , probably there are many more items, I didn't even talk about the elitism what below mediocre players require to get into their key (636 ilvl, 8/8 mythic, [current_keystone +2] timed, etc) and other spicy things, but even with our friends we feel that we may leave the game and return to S2. I'm perfectly aware some players will say "you are just not good enough", but again, been in high keys pushing for long enough, 3.7k in any of the seasons is not a range you can easily do as a non-meta DPS (yes, I stick to my class and specs) and thanks to the points I have written above + some small others - this is not fun. For the record I'm doing 13 keys now + trying some 14s, but besides sitting in the "Queuing Simulator" it is also just not fun. There is a difference between challenge and punishment. And I think Blizz needs to reiterate about the latter.

[@raygill8711]

As a healer this shit isn't fun if I get the same as dps I am a shammy I stunn cc dps on top of healing and people get mad if u ask them the debuff themselves

[@Akumashogun259]

I'm only raid logging this season. I can't even get into a +5. After 30 minutes of trying I move on to another game. It's just a waste of time.

[@Kotoy1]

Same man.

[@karlmorando1034]

If you raid you must have a guild? How about you stop being anti-social and ask them if they wanna run. It's an MMO not a solo player game.

[@reuterss306]

well, some people are better suited playing singleplayer games anyways.

[@z1doug]

@@karlmorando1034 that isn't a solution to bad design

[@kingtut8367]

Blizzard just needs to tune the dungeons down by like 400%. I failed a 2 last night. A fkn 2. Because people were touching the add on grim batol 3rd boss. Tank was eating second bosses rage thing or whatever. Tank not dragging last boss into circle and stand in bad. Dps getting hit by every tentacle possible. People are trying to get into mythic + at 2 and obviously they’re learning, but 12 mins over timer is definitely a confidence crusher and may prohibit players from going back and trying again. And as a player who isn’t new to m+, its frustrating that I spend 1 hour in a 2 key cause of failed mechanics. Mechanics are important for sure, but should it be that punishing to fail a 2? I don’t think so

[@1988antenne]

a +2 is still a 12 my friend. far from low.

[@Xakanis]

the problem is people think +2 is a beginner dungeon, its actually like a 12 in the old system. People just get Ilvl from raid, skip doing M0.

[@cursedstarr]

Puggers are not fun to play with either, I had a 10+ key and after first mob pack the healer left making it impossible to finish. There’s no punishment for puggers who leave and it ruins a key always.

[@AmanitaMuscarias]

Queue for mythic plus as a non-resto shaman: could mean applying for 20 to 50 grps with decline. Raider IO: 10+ keys 54% representation of r. Sham; 12+: 80% r.sham representation. I looked through raider IO which goes back to legion. The worst runner up that I could find was BFA S2: r.druid 67%, SL S 2 9.2.0: r.sham 67%, , SL S4 legion time walking (20+): holy priest 100%, DF S 4: 87% r.druid (20+ keys). Imo, when there is a very clear healer (or tank, or DPS) that is clearly overpowered in comparison to their peers; that blizzard has dropped the ball on balancing. Atm, that would be the 80% healer representation of r.sham in 12+ keys. Blizzard could bring the other healers up to r.shaman lvl or nerf; I'd prefer bringing the lower healers up to the overpowered/ over performing spec. Either way, a blizzard balancing error that they should address.

[@claasbenecke2452]

Quite hard tbh, I out heal & out dps resto shams as mw in 12+ but it’s their utility that makes them dominate this season. This season is just a perfect environment for them, without killing them in further seasons there is no real way to balance that properly rn Feel free to share ur opinion on that

[@AmanitaMuscarias]

@@claasbenecke2452 , I think buffing is better than nerfing. I'd advocate for adding utility that makes resto shaman better to other healers instead of nerfing r.shaman. I'd first advocate to give priests ranged interrupt. Then advocate for all healers to have a stun like incap totem. When I'm on my r.shaman, having both ranged interrupt and stun via incap totem helps control trash pulls.

[@claasbenecke2452]

@@AmanitaMuscarias fair enough, priest not having a kick is a war crime tbh

[@jasper8431]

that game in general becomeing bigger and bigger disappointment every expansions....

[@tcipp1292]

I’m a M+ pug player. Played since vanilla, but actually have a job and can’t give my entire waking life to Wow. So I pug. I’m finding this season way more punishing one way or another regardless of role. I mostly tank, but when I dps I find grouping worse than usual. And overall things are just beyond hard and less rewarding.

[@GrochuNFSW]

They made huge mistake with making lower keys harder. From psychological point of view - if current m0, is previous m9/10 it means back then, you could feel like achieving something when completing it. Its a 9/10! Now you do it on m0, so you are literally 0. This needs reverse asap. Completing dungeon achievments to get mount is insane now too, from casual player perspective.

[@tombeef4534]

Their relative scale is way off. In no way is a m0 like the old m10….the most obvious is you have no timer and no affix just to start.

[@kurrwa]

I don't care about scaling down, it's fine let 10 be old 20. but make special reward for completing 10s

[@Xakanis]

They made m0 because they thought casual players wanted an untimed experience.

[@chrisgraboski9133]

This a game not a job…

[@Uncle19]

“If you’re Ilvl 610 and go into a +7 then no worries” meanwhile I’m getting declined for 40 minutes as a 616 holy priest apping to +7s… that’s the real problem.

[@freakthegod2362]

Because even though holy priest is capable of doing 7s, discipline priest much better. Discs Defensives, damage, dmg mitigation, and the healing output crush anything holy priest has. It’s not like you’re cooked. Switch to disc and you won’t have issues anymore. You might think “ Why should I have to switch to disc? “ If it was your group, would you prefer the better healing profile priest has? For the higher rate of success, be real.

[@Uncle19]

@@freakthegod2362 while that may be true, unless they’re going and looking me up on raider io, they won’t know if I’m holy or disc. Also I have played disc and it’s so much harder to pump. Maybe a skill gap but I can easily do 1M hps while weaving holy fires and keeping dps up. Plus I bring a stun and big shield in oracle cooldowns plus much better spot healing for those who fail mechanics, plus a cheat death and several other great utilities. I’ve had 0 struggles what so ever in the groups which I have gotten into, just need to get accepted! Honestly I feel like this mentality is a big part of the problem, like saying resto Druid is strictly worse than resto shaman so it shouldn’t be invited. +7 keys aren’t cutting edge, we don’t need to be so selective. Fire mage or arcane mage is fine, I won’t decline a fire with good mythic score and gear cause they’re fire.

[@TheKirbylore]

This dumb orb thing that they have going on now is so unfair sometimes, like they’ll spawn when 90% of the ground is fire so you can’t get them without dying and the boss will grab 6 of them and then oops, there goes 2 min off my timer because of something outside of our control

[@Xakanis]

i loved the moving buff orbs spawning out in the water in Siege of boralus, meaning the boss gets like 50 percent extra damage if you don't have an evoker or someone else jumping into the water to intercept.

[@hansmartin3197]

So i play in a guild who do m+10-13 keys, but what most members complain was that its not worth playing m+ if u want to gear ur character, we do the whole heroic raid in 1,5 hour with and if ur good u can do 3 m+10 in the same amount of time for just 6 items instead of 48 items. I think what also kills m+ is that u need a+10 for myth track item in ur vault, it would be enough if u need to do a +9 or 8, otherwise alot of players will have low gear for the whole season 1. And whats really the worst is if u want to do a+8 and higher and u dont already timed the key most people dont invite u.

[@ivotoceny3923]

I feel like there needs to also be a way to get myth track items from m+, even when it would mean to go into +12. Getting just 1 myth item which is random and its from vault is i think really not a way. This would give people more intensive to progress more and have more meaningfull progression.

[@KirtHooper]

As a healer I feel like most of it is good but there are a few bosses that just have garbage mechanics. Last boss in city of threads comes to mind. The stacking of dps phases combined with constant movement feels like cancer.

[@ivotoceny3923]

Agree with you, also first boss there just forces you to not dispell people, because there are always frontals during the dispell window, so people move, you cannot even dispell people because of that, tried to ping a person and dispell after but they move because of frontal and its terrible design even when you dont see a person with orbs behind the boss, but definitelly agree with the last boss and moving is crazy healing recuirement even without moving. Ara-kara last boss if you dispell person in melee, you get flamed, that they cannot dodge it fast enough, that you dispell too fast etc., when you are struggling to heal in 50yrds radius people during dodging. BTW love there, when i am resto druid you get switched into tree from swiftmend proc or normal tree, when the tree ends, you remove yourself from the pool, so you die from the pull, its lovely. So i would have to remove my healing cd in form of tree before the pools so i dont remove my root effect :D :D some designs are crazy

[@vladimirbosinceanu5778]

I stopped playing M+. It sucks. BTW, loved the frontal snippet.

[@ugladden]

Delves helped shed light on how poor mythic feels.. the long waiting on pugs, toxic people, the anxiety timer.. all just to have your key bricked or complete it with a small chance at any mythic loot.

[@reuterss306]

dont play m+ then.

[@DirtyAtreyu]

@@reuterss306 That's what people are doing. Welcome to the conversation.

[@HESOMADBRO]

Not every game-mode needs to be designed for everyone to enjoy, true. But the problem is that a large part of the community were M+ only players already and attempting to increase healer power has resulted in everyone (even including the healers) having less fun. Given how popular the late M+ seasons of DF were, one really has to wonder how they managed to create such a lose-lose situation.

[@Cosmicllama64]

Dungeon design is... bad. Regular dungeons at lvl 80 result in party wipes regularily. I'm all for difficulty, but as a dps I barely understand where the hell the damage is coming from - it just suddenly happens. And then most of the time I'm soft-cc'd by insta abilities again no clue where it comes from. If I heal, I'm white knuckling it because most of the healing abilities have moved towards "tempo" based predicitive strategies and the party is taking 50%+ damage in the span of 2 globals by mechanics that have basically no telegraphy (there is no reactivity or counter play unless you know each pack/mob intimately). Move to mythic, it's a shit show. I'll be in pvp and delves until Blizz figures how to fix this shit. Mythics is a waste of time and will just leave people frustrated and I get enough of that in my sex life.

[@Cosmicllama64]

Honestly, I kinda think part of the problem is that heroic dungeons are basically meaningless. You can max out on heroic gear in a couple days of effort. After that... why do you play? If I could play heroics and work my way (much more slowly than mythics), then that would be cool. Make Mythic 0 connected to LFG, or some sort of equivalent. That's all I want as a casual player. I'm not interested in chasing M+ - community is toxic, gatekeeping is frustrating. But I tap out on WoW way to quickly because I hit a progression ceiling with literally nothing to pursue in the game.

[@MaxMustermann-bt7zk]

I cannot agree more on the bad telegraphing aspect, this is probably THE biggest point for me that make M+ just not fun. It feels like you are just constantly watching 10-15 Nameplates swarming your screen, trying to catch the one important cast that needs to be kicked / cc'd. It's especially bad when playing melee, half of the time i dont even know where the fuck my character is at between all the namesplates and npc models, and god forbid you miss the barely noticable telegraphing of the one-shot frontal in all of that. And because of this poor telegraphing, you are forced to spend so much of your time browsing external resources like wowhead or youtube guides, instead of just, you know....playing the game? Learning by doing feels literally impossible at this point.

[@reuterss306]

@@MaxMustermann-bt7zk bro, just get a nameplate profile like from quazii when you dont want to learn which mobs are important by yourself. you can complain complain complain, or you can actively change something about your situation. Getting a nameplate profile shows you all the important dangerous mobs with different color codes, but honestly when you play a key a few times you will learn what kills the group pretty quickly imho. Just look up your death log or your damage intake and when you see some spell doing 5m damage...it is pretty obvious what to do next time ;) This game is 20 years old and you shouldnt expect that it will drastically change...because it wont.

[@MaxMustermann-bt7zk]

@@reuterss306 I do use a nameplate profile, exactly the one from quazii actually, and yes, it helps a ton with those issues. However, i think it's just flawed game design if things like these become a necessity. Sometimes it feels like im not even looking at the game anymore, because all you do is look at nameplates, look at weakauras to play your class properly, you look at unitframes to see debuffs on your party, you look at dbm / bigwigs timers to see upcoming abilities....It just sucks that your eyes constantly have to be glued to a bunch of third party programs to be able to play the game properly, because the visibility/telegraphing the game itself delivers is just so lackluster. WoW is just balanced around these external resources these days, and its really a shame imo.

[@knasbollolo]

Using gear as the big visible "prestige" in wow is really starting to get old. Everyone should have access to gearing, it should only be a matter of efficiency. The world player takes longer to get to max than the m+ player, who takes longer than the mythic raider. Diablo which is a blizzard game does this, as you increase in torment you don't have access to any unique gear that lower torment doesn't, it is just a lot faster to get. You are rewarded for the difficult content by being much more efficient. When ilvl is the prestige they have to gate keep it and make the experience terrible for those who are not in the top 25%(or even less). Like in TWW 619 is a horrible breakpoint where vault becomes pointless unless you mythic raid or do m10+, blizzard should want even casual players to stick around for their weekly dopamine hit in the vault. If they can't progress unless they do the very cutting edge, why would they stay and play? Blizzard should move the visible prestige more towards your rating or raid clearing. Maybe show your score/raid clear under your name, colour your name special, add a special border. Give special effects that is not just a pathetic shoulder/head effect that is often not even visible. Without add-ons like Raider io your score is practically invisible unless you are in the group finder. By making it visible the 1% might stop being so elitist about gear, since their validation from being a good player is visible to all, not just that they have high item level. Mage tower did this very well by giving very unique weapons that really stood out. Give mage tower tier quality weapons for maybe having done all 12s with more colours the higher you go, just an example.

[@josefl1210]

I think blizz should add a m+ browser. If you timed for example a +8 of a particular dungeon you can queue up for a +9 and so on. Ideally it should match Players with similar Rating (just like in other competitive games like dota or cs. And for all those that Like to build groups on their own, the current system should be kept. This way every spec has the chance to get into keys.

[@metsfan1932]

Why? Why do people insist on demanding a system where people are forced to play with you?

[@josefl1210]

@@metsfan1932 You should still be able to do your own groups if you like. This system should be added and not replace the current System

[@metsfan1932]

@@josefl1210 Tanks and healers wont use the system, straight up. I play a tank and my wife plays a healer. When we post our key, we get 50-60 DPS applying and we can choose the best possible options, sometimes people with 300-400 more rating than us. So why would we go into a system where we are going to be placed with people the same or lower rating AND we can't build an optimal composition for the specific dungeon?

[@josefl1210]

@@metsfan1932 good point, but still worth a try imo

[@bukakabarabaka]

​@@metsfan1932current system is terrible for dps and good for guys like you thats why. Less gatekeeping and waiting - more active players = better experience overall for all.

[@Costinvlad]

The biggest problem no one talks about is that the crest reward drops to 5 if u dont make it in time ....... That alone is a big insentiv for leaving the key ! Losing 30+ min for 5 crest is ridiculous !.....This way if u dont time 3 keys that can take 40 min of your time( each one) you can loose 2 hours of game just for a single upgrade.....

[@AkumaDrip]

As a feral I literally apply to around 50 keys before I get accepted into one on my level (not below) I am 2650 rio and 626 gear and I NEVER get invited to keys at all, super hard to pug.

[@gusp1456]

You have a triple roadblock first for playing feral no one doesnt even know what it does, second most of the melee slots are taken by ret or frost dk they do damage and very reliable and third dps compete with a massive amount of others for invites

[@reuterss306]

join a guild. look for m+ mates. or play your own keys.

[@mamalluca1982]

man why would someone invite a feral to his key lol

[@mmsooll]

Spec balans when applying for keys respec when you are in the key.

[@Luckie-fm6np]

Here is how I would fix WoW, Mythic + included. Delves through 8, mythic through 8 and heroic raids all cap out at hero track gear and have similar farm rates for pieces and crests. Harbinger crests now allow you to max your hero gear to full level, and crest rates for all three "pillars" are increased. Also, conquest gear is hero track (and in pvp still 639 ilvl) and you get harb crests from the crates. Now you can get to ilvl 626 no matter what content you want to do, whether group, solo, or pvp. From there, the only way to get to ilvl 636, if you want, is through joining a guild (or toxic pugging) for mythic 10+ or mythic dungeons. Now no one has to toxic pug to level themselves to a respectable level and you can get to full hero maxed gear however is funniest for you. Just like McDonalds, give your customers real choices and if everyone pics delves (big mac) instead of mythic + (mcRib) to get tot ilvlv 626 then the customers have spoken and chose what they prefer, not a problem. Then, if your a sweaty hardcore nerd then have fun toxic pugging or joining a corporation...errr guild.....to grind out that last 10 ilvls for full mythic. But honestly if you add in enough fun achievements with mounts and titles and such to pad the seasons then I bet 85% of the player base will be happy at 626 ilvl.

[@Kotoy1]

The year is 2017. I finish raiding heroic on my mage. I joing up a random key to relax. I get invited because i just need ilvl, not an entire cv. Tank pulls 15 mobs and sustains himself. Healer dpses. I press my macro with 5 abilities baked in and let it rip. Nobody is dying. Everyone is having fun. Life is good.

[@Nuxinor]

They should remove the timer because the timer is not fun at all. A gogogogo mentality and not being able to stop and think is one of the main reasons I feel mentally drained after a couple of M+ and am getting to the point where I resent relying on it for crests. They should make loot based on a death counter and make bloodlust only available twice per dungeon so people don’t wait for exhaustion to end between each pull. They could also pause cooldowns while out of combat if they wanted to. Anything feels better than this at this point.

[@1988antenne]

timer could be used for extra rewards instead.

[@dirtnap9641]

Maybe i am an outlier, but, for the most part I do not like the new dungeons. I dont like that they keep adding more gimmicky events/ actions with dungeons, and it feels like we are moving towards smaller, shorter dungeons with 3 bosses. Everything now revolves around M+ so we will never get cool dungeons again that maybe take a little longer because they are cities or giant mage towers or anything of the like.

[@Cosmicllama64]

What I would kill for a modern equivalent of BRD...

[@djaibi6678]

@@Cosmicllama64 no thanks

[@tombeef4534]

They have released a mega dungeon for every expansion since Legion….in fact since the introduction of m+ mega dungeons are the biggest dungeon experience since BRD.

[@dirtnap9641]

@@Cosmicllama64 BRD, UBRS, LBRS, Strath, Scholo, DM..

[@drunkpool7411]

PREACH! I started in SL S4 and in DF S1-3 got my grounds and did KSM on 2 and 3. This season is abysmal and there are no learning keys anymore to learn mechanics or anything. I just will never understand them listening on the key squish. There used to be ground for casuals (50% of playerbase) and for higher keys (pushers, etc.) because of scaling. Why just remove half of the game to cater to people that's literal JOBS are to play WOW all day? Pusher is 0.1% of playerbase.

[@sioc7478]

Too bad normal/heroic dungoens even exist. Normals should leave big visuals and indicators of what boss abilities do to teach new players mechanics, and I feel heroics should be harder with fewer visuals.The world is too easy and only has little events with not so good gear too. The return of an improved challenge mode with one difficulty level and a unique mythic style mechanic with the reward being a mount, title, and really good class ensambles/weapons inspired by hero talents would be so cool for wow. There has been such a huge cosmetic decline in wow over the years. Focusing on the quality of dungeons and raids, we could potentially see more of them to keep us busy per season/expansion. I understand M+ is important for gear, but we can upgrade and catalyze pieces without the added stress of pushing high keys with lame rewards.

[@liyong511]

As a player who plays only healing or tanking since BC, the public dps are so toxic atm

[@viss2616]

Worst thing about M+ is that I have to sit 30 minutes signing up to groups of people trying to get boosted, if only there was a matchmaking system based on rating and roles so boosted idiots wouldn't have the choice.

[@WilsoYUN0DI3]

I totally agree lol, had a few that were obviously boosted by guildes yesterday. 2600 rating in a +4 getting out dps'd by an old guy that relies on GSE to even play 🤣

[@berryford]

17:25 This, this omg this. Getting rid of this punishment alone I think would remove the majority of where the frustration with M+ comes from.

[@notarron8913]

'Healers dont want to heal spiky healthbars, he says blowing up the 3rd shard on skarmorak and wiping his own group'

[@Cappa-WoW]

The biggest issue in my opinion is the extra timer for deaths. This made so many keys depleted when they were close in time without this extra time loose

[@skoomd4447]

Healing just sucks now, I enjoyed it in df but now its one mistake and everyones dead... just no fun anymore and your always the one to get blamed. Im human i make mistakes and the aoe damage going out especially when the dps are missing kicks just feels so shitty.

stop pugging, get on disc with friends, lmao everyone complaining is cringe

[@skoomd4447]

It has nothing to do with pugging, I pugged through df up to +20 and had significantly more fun and less issues. I play for fun and don't have time to no life the game like some people. Anyone saying m+ is OK must not have a job lol

[@nathanielarocho4327]

The high amount of damage causes me to constantly wonder why my tank is running away from me.

[@vanguelisk]

revert the key scaling as it was in DF S1-S3

[@MarcelianOnline]

I mean, that's not the issue tho

[@jdp2571]

100% learning the dungeon on a 10 is the stupidest fking shit I ever seen.....

[@tuomopietikainen4506]

It might be one solution. There should be those low keys where you can learn mechanics without getting oneshotted and if you do it wont matter because tiking is so much easier and everyone gets crests.

[@tuomopietikainen4506]

Oh and it just doesnt matter which comp are you running in those old 5-11 keys so its easier to get invited

[@jonbrown8698]

@@MarcelianOnlineits exactly the issue, new or casual players will run one key and say fuck it for the entire expansion. I know that’s the case because a ton or people in Trade chat are saying the same thing.

[@Taintedwings4444]

Gilded crests dropping form 8 is a great change but making mythic gear drop from 9 would be so much better. The difficulty jump from 8-9 is ridiculous and form 9-10 is insane. I main a bm is my experience is worse.

[@Shiirow]

its gone from bad to worse, literally the worst thing to happen to the game and a failed experiment that the developers seemingly are unwilling to let go of.

[@z1doug]

@@Ratatoeskrrr affixes aren't the issue at all

[@scott6430]

I’m convinced that whoever ultimately chooses the rotation of dungeons is a sadist. They have to be.

[@MikeyJ232]

They really need to start cracking down on people leaving keys. I understand if there’s been excessive wipes, but we have people out here bricking keys after a single wipe.

[@mooninites755]

Eh, there are definitely too many people who ragequit for no reason. But people also shouldn't be held prisoner in a key for 2 hours when there are people who aren't good enough to complete them.

[@MikeyJ232]

@@mooninites755 That’s exaggerative and not what’s happening. People are leaving either at the first boss when there’s still time or the last boss when people want to complete their dungeon. Let me be clear, if you brick someone’s key over a wipe or two, you should be suspended because this bad behavior has gone unpunished for too long. If you are guilty of this behavior, just stop pugging and wasting everyone else’s time. Go find an organized group that has the same goals as you.

[@Gonourakuto]

@@mooninites755 People should only be allowed to leave the keys without penalties after either the key timer is over or after a certain number of death like 15

[@bdgandalfow2776]

@@MikeyJ232 i can leaven with time on the clock and still know we cant Finnish the key dude lol maybe you should try being more informative in pugs you start let people know you only want the key done not done in time

[@MikeyJ232]

@@bdgandalfow2776 Huh? That’s absurd. If I’m inviting you to my key, it’s because I want to finish the dungeon. Who in the heck wants their time wasted and no chance at loot?

[@Impuracle]

Blizzard needs to seriously improve player respawn checkpoints for every Mythic+ dungeon. It's not fun!

[@NeverAware]

turns out, relying on Healers to keep 4 other people alive is a bad idea

[@dirtygerd9083]

Should it be like DF where they stand there dpsing 70% of the time? Healing is the most fun its ever been you actually need to heal now.

[@sere971]

@@dirtygerd9083 Healing is only "the most fun it's ever been" for resto shamans/meta rerollers, because shaman can deal with everything in this season much easier than other healing specs. For the rest of us it's pretty miserable compared to past seasons. Saying that you "stood there DPSing 70% of the time" in DF is delusional. Shadowlands, sure, but DF? That's just not accurate.

[@Bashera46]

I mean at a certain key level, its entirely on the DPS to press their multiple defensives correctly, if they don't then they cannot be healed through their poor play

[@NeverAware]

@@Bashera46 Install that addon that tracks defensives being used. then come back to me after looking at it for a few weeks.

[@NeverAware]

@@dirtygerd9083 yes it should be, otherwise you end up with a M+ season like S1 of TWW. dead content

[@DavidCtin02]

Main Tank here for like 4 expanssions. Always Bdk. Here are the things that i hate - BEFORE EACH pull i have to use defensive before pulling or else i get oneshoted. Sometimes i dont have defensives on each pack - but we can argue that here is a skill issue that i should know better how much i can pull or when to use my defensive abiltiies. Things harder for me than before - sometimes i tank for like 8-9 seconds without taking any damage, i have my runic power maxed out waiting to take a hit so i can use my death strike - 0 dmg incoming. On other scenarios i use my dancing rune weapon, icebount fortitude -> Purgatory activated in 1 second - i dont have time to react to that damage in take. Eeven if i use my death strike prientevly to have blood shield on me -> the hit melts my shield and my hp. Pulls where i`ve encountered this problem: first pull Grim Batol, Wasp pull in Mist of Tirna, first pull necrotic plague, on top of the construction thing in necrotic - 2nd pull. I dont find it fun to play as a bdk anymore. I do my raid weekly, and only 1 dugeon for a random maybe improvment reward. I hated those 4 dungeons they added back in the day, i still hate them - not as much as others like the one with water things in BFA. I liked it before with tyranical/fortified weeks separate. The affix where you would lose time on death was PURE dumbass move. The xalatah affixes dont bother me. The difference between a +8 to a +9 to a +10 its HUUUGE. Too high in dmg taken. Seems way to high for the rewards. Oh, and i hate that i dont get my crests on +6 how it used to be. At the start of the season was +9, now its +8 - its SHIT. I am at 628 ilvl - with nothing to upgrade untill i farm like 90 crests to upgrade a crafter item to 636 wich would give me 0.5 ilvl increase. BULLSHIT. I`m a casual player as most of wow players - i dont find it entertaining anymore because of many reasons - but i liked how it was on DF the m+ i mean. Now i dont like it. It feels weird - way too hard for the rewards you recive.

[@SteveSchweichler]

I used to push 20s and would get ksm in the first few weeks. I'm still not ksm. And can't get invited to groups for 7s or 8s. Literally spend hours trying to get into a key just to have them brick because someone caused a wipe and boom the key is done. I think I'm going to avoid keys for the rest of the season

[@dirtygerd9083]

You have to push your own keys. I do this across 4 characters and get at least 4 mythic slots for each character each week. Only on my tank/healers can I join other peoples keys and get instant invites.

[@metsfan1932]

It's almost like you people are completely unaware that there is a keystone in your bag

[@bukakabarabaka]

​@@dirtygerd9083im sorry, am i able to live life or only play wow if i want myth gear?

[@juiicer]

@@metsfan1932 Ahh yes, key can't be bricked because it was in MY bag... yes, good. lmao.

[@metsfan1932]

@@juiicer Can't brick it lower than 2. Sooner or later you'll get it higher.

[@DiigiiTV]

Amazing video! You hit the nail on it's head with this video. I've been having more of a hard time in this season than ever before. That's with timing keys, being invited, and a lot of other things. I'm also curious about who's Mythic+ made for? Hardcore M+ players are even more hardcore in season 1. Leaving quickly after only one wipe (to be fair, the timers are very punishing, same as the affix that gives you 15 second penalty on death), or just have an overall irritated experience. I also don't think M+ is made for new players. Because the people that are learning are getting punished as well, and very hard. Especially at one point when gear doesn't save you. But as you mentioned, you get punished a lot when not timing a key. If a new player tries some M+ keys during a evening, and they time 1 out of 5 keys, you almost get no rewards for the keys that haven't been timed. I think there is also more going on that you didn't mention, and that are Meta Classes (or maybe I missed it, but I think I've went through everything in the video twice). I think the balancing is getting worse and worse each season/expansion. Maybe also because things are getting more complicated, but it is just a big mess. Classes that are being nerfed into the ground, and during the season are being buffed to the point they were before the nerfs. I just don't understand that if you play two classes equally well, that one class is doing hundreds of more overall damage than other classes. I totally agree there is a difference, some dungeons have big packs, some dungeons have small packs, and some classes are just a bit better at those things. But should that even be a thing? "You should play what you like" is always something people say, but with the current systems, it is very very hard. In 12's and 13's, people only wanna take a Frost DK, Aug Evoker, Prot Warrior, maybe a Mage and a Rogue. As a Warlock player I almost never get an invite, and after an hour of trying, I just quit. Why can't all classes be equally good? Why is there a FOTM each season, and if you are not it, you are pretty much screwed. Combined with all the downsides of M+: long queue times, dungeons take a while (which is normal), people leaving, but if you finish it out of time you get a downgrade of the key, couple of crests, and an item that you don't need.

[@AlexSS1234]

I’m a player from Taiwan. I main hunter and i can play survival and marksmanship. My gear is 624 and io rating is 2650. I found there are issues with this season 1. RNG system is equipment acquiring kills the experience. For example, my delves never give anything but cloak and boots. I have tons of cloaks and boots. I only did delves trying to get the vault each week. I don’t have much time playing games and RNG system kind of drives me away. 2. The dungeon is a bit overtuned. Thus, make PUG groups wanting only death knights and paladins. Hunter never gets a chance to get into 10+ keys. I have to apply and wait for around like 30min to get into one. Death knight could deal with many dungeon mechanics by pressing one button and not losing their Dps too much while others have to run for their lives. 3. The reward is just not good and punishment for failing keys are too much. 4. I still think the damage was too spiky.

[@MeowMeow6118a]

I did not even play 1 M+ what I saw from the Test/PTR it already said to me this will be drama pure, and I was right, I know many decent and good players and they have issues to finish a M+ 6-10 in a pug group :D for vault, ppl leaving after 2-3 wipes or you don't even get invited if your RIO is not high enough or if you don't play meta for high keys. Blizzard should buff delves and make it drop 5 man dungeon items in vaults and also buff the delve item level in vault.

[@Tberg81]

Blizzards constant push to make WoW a e sport is ruining the game, Rushing through dungeons on a timer has never been fun and 75 % of the player base agree. Even taking regular mythics and heroic does not allow people to learn the game, as the GO GO GO attitude is so stamped in the wow community now. i Hate this constant rush rush rush game mode and people leaving if we stop for 3 seconds. Blizz have a big job on their hands if the want to keep palyers in WoW, and not the 200 people that watch the stupid M+ competitions on twitch, just so stupid

[@Joel-pf6fr]

Show your work on the 75%. I enjoy racing against the timer and know several that do too. That is like saying I don't know many people that play pvp, so most people don't like pvp.

[@alihorda]

​@@Joel-pf6frmajority of people hate the timer, especially the recent change with increased penalties.

[@countryc0unt]

@@alihorda show numbers and research please :)

[@alihorda]

@@countryc0unt ask the community, watch any video. Play the game.

[@Resapz]

Go play classic lol

[@BelligerentWoW]

So I main a resto-druid from Legion (Mythic raider), skipped BFA & SL and came back to DF Season 3 where got my portals w/ all dungeons at max of 21. I'm sitting at 2200 rating for a spec that is 100% NOT meta, in fact is it's one of the weakest classes since the start of the season. I can give a full bullet points I've scene. For historical context, I was able to get Myth track gear in vault at 6-7 weeks into Season 3 w/ no consistent group, mostly pugging. This season, I have a main tank friend (Paladin Tank, also not meta) and I managed to get Myth track in vault this week, 5 weeks into S3! Improvements! I will say this before getting into the complaints. The +10 key that I did yesterday in CoT has arguably made me a better player much eariler in the M+ cycle than in the past, similar to how Mythic raiding did to me as well. The last boss is INSANELY difficult to heal and I NEEDED to know what ability did what to the group 10 seconds before before it went out. That is inherent to a resto-druid play style with ramping up to heal big dmg but boy was it difficult at ilvl 617. The AoE dmg in that fight lines up 1 after another, large AoE -> movement mech - > larger AoE -> tank buster -> movement mech -> large AoE --- NO breaks at all! That is the level of play I had and learned during progressive Mythic raiding and it was HARD but my reward not being Myth track gear but a Myth track piece of gear next week? Kinda feels bad BUT I can run 8's and get crests to upgrade gear to make this easier! It's progression but in a different way! The myth crests at 8 NEEDED to happen! Overall, I think as the season continues they NEED to BREAK the meta. And by BREAK the meta, they NEED to BUFF almost EVERYONE outside the meta and they need to do it FAST! Nerfing the Meta isn't going to be the best approach since it will be looked down as very negatively. It's something they need to correct slowly overtime but BUFFS make everyone happy, even if it's not "correcting" the difficult curve. 1. The dungeons are NOT friendly to HEALERS specifically from very SMALL mistakes --- Take Necrotic Wake, even after pre-nerf this was a dungeon that has had it's OWN M+ season back in SL and it was NOT this difficult. Miss 1 Frostbolt Volly at a 5 key and it does 20% of the entire groups HP. There is 2 mages in most packs & in the boss pull. When 2 of those go out, EVERYONE is down -40% hp. Toss in now boss Necrotic Bolt, 1.2 million per hit (another 20%) + 600k Heal Absorb. This is 100% ping-ponging people's HP bars INSANELY fast! The only SMOOTH HP drops they have are most of the unavoidable AoE dmg abilities, up until around 7-8's you can survive them with 10% hp remaining with no heals. This leads into another issue: 2. Blizzard has fallen in love with healing absorb shields this season and it's HORRIBLE! Smooth HP damage outputs don't mean put an absorb on someone for their entire health bar and then put out a massive "smooth" AoE dmg ability out right after. I now have to heal them as if they are at -20% HP! 3. One Shots - Their are ALOT of them! I got grabbed in a Siege key into an ability and got 1 shot by the combo. City of Threads, the mobs double cast web-bolt and target the SAME person. INSTANT one-shot if not interrupted. TANKS are getting 1 shot (A paladin that is...) etc. I don't believe there was a single 1 shot mechanic in DF S3 that REQUIRED a personal CD under a 20 key like the first boss in Necrotic Wake has at a 8-9 level. 4. Tick Rates on Floor Goop Sometimes the ticks of damage are INSTANT. The description states standing in the pool does X dmg every 1 second, but if you so much as stutter step into it for 0.5 seconds, instant damage. This is WAY more noticeable when you have the "Don't stand in bad" pools for tanks, which tick 4+ Million a second! A DPS instantly dies if they so much as take ONE tick w/ other damage being thrown out at the same time. Grim Batol they had the flame guys instantly popping abilities that were unavoidable. Buggy-ness of the abilities & affix's are crazy too! 5. Meta Comp - The stupid drop in difficulty you have when you run a Meta comp is INSANE. Unlike ANY other season I've played. You go in with a meta comp, your reclined back and flying through that key! You swap in 1 or 2 of the people from that comp and the difficulty SPIKES massively for NO reason. Aug's are stupid as well too, insanely required in group play w/ the stupid amount of CC they have etc.

[@MrLolguy93]

The dungeons are way too overtuned. They should nerf all by at least 10-15 %. It's that ridiculous. Not to mention that even at almost 2,2 k rating I never get invited because everyone is expecting to be boosted by premades.

[@gorchalas]

nope, at 2.2k everyone's just higher than you.

[@YappowTV]

never played m+ before? there are 100000000000 dps signing up go play tank issue solved

[@asasdsaasda]

The point of M+ is to challenge yourself, not 'everyone has to do every level of keys' If X is harder for you or your groups that is your level, work to improve yourself, if they nerf M+ in 3 weeks you gonna qq again once you hit the next wall and demand another nerf, personally, I find everything till 7 faceroll, 8-10 is decent hard with a pug, anything above is 'hard', I'm hitting the wall at 14s right now and I would hate if they nerf it, it would make my journey meaningless

[@mooninites755]

2.2k rating is like an 8 timed for every dungeon. It's not even impressive, and if you're applying to 10s why would any player invite you when people 2500+ are also applying

[@antcraw]

@@asasdsaasda lol what a weak, defeatist mindset. Life must be tough for you. If they nerf M+ only change would be you hitting the wall at 18 instead of 14. You literally wouldn't notice a change except that you could do a higher number.

[@bluepototo7671]

You're not wrong, there's more dot per pack per dungeon than before, most of them are magical and poison.

[@jonathanrobison7994]

Brother this is spot on!!!! I laughed so hard watching this! Problem is the sweat lords…saying it’s ok and that us looser scrubs should just get better. Great video!!!

[@Retwheelchair]

Another big issue is that we're almost 3 months into the xpac and the amount of bugs that plague the end content is obscene. An example is Dawnbreaker, during the week of the voidbound affix, me and my group were doing a +9. First boss, we fly away during the darkness comes ability, at the same time, xal'atath emissary spawns and that triggers a boss reset.

[@serik3180]

People cried there wasn't enough to heal . Now they cry it is to much to heal 🎉🎉🎉😂

[@antcraw]

Well to be fair, they also nerfed healing, nerfed tanks, nerfed interrupts, AND decided to tune tf out of dungeons, then ignored all feedback so it is what it is lol

[@Gonourakuto]

I mean both can be true maybe before their wasnt enough to heal cause too much self sufficient classes ectect and now maybe there is too much cause of a lot of major changes in these aspects of the game

[@dirtygerd9083]

Healing is the most fun its ever been.

[@andrewhatch320]

As a healer main, the problem is four-fold, which makes M+ unenjoyable compared to the olden days - avoidable damage is unforgiving, spikes are dramatically high, unavoidable damage requires defensives (meaning DPS that pay attention), and speed is emphasized above all. All of these together means it's about pumping damage and Blizz finding ways to punish quickly. I can't say the current system is able to be tweaked much. But healers still have to do everything (but tank)

[@gameaccount3420]

Dungeons are overturned and it is not worth doing.

[@MarcelianOnline]

I mean they are overtuned, still fun tho!

[@azertoo7]

Guilded crest issue aside, it is my opinion that this Mythic tier highlights a big problem with the whole system that has been present for at least 2 expantions, and is only now coming to light: Mythic + weekly vault reward. In the last few expantions, it was much (much) easier to complete a Mythic 10+ than to clear a Heroic raid, which would reward a mythic level piece of gear every week, and because of that doing Mythic+ has become an obligation for so many people just to keep up. I think that the vault reward should be of a similar ilvl to the highest M+ you ran, but not higher, if needed increase the ilvl of the pieces you get from completing the instance I think the same should be done with Delve, the ilvl of the loot should just rise the higher the tier you complete, have tier 10-11 drop ilvl 616 and give us tiers 12-15 for mythic level loot. Just like how raid works (not many people complain about not getting Mythic rewards from the vault for completing a Heroic raid). That way each actual run will be more rewarding rather than the actual reward being limited to 1-3 items each week. And people won't feel like their entire game progression is halted because they cannot complete M+.

[@zuluhawk]

I have no reason to do Mpluses and I only do them when my friends ask, I will never pug them due to the toxicity of them. That's on Blizzard making them the way they are.

[@al.c.1525]

toxic dungeons are the biggest lie there is i am no lifing keys and people either dont talk or simply leave after saying 1 word after a wipe thats ok its how it is in raids aswell only toxicity i see is when people fail mechanics and make it other peoples problem so might aswell watch a guide to do dungeon before signing in? or put it on note that you are learning? you cant expect random people to be forgiving if you are doing the end game content of a game (highest difficulty of dungeons) unless you explain or you could play with guild for a safer environment just as you would with raids

[@ezeess7239]

MOBS ARE ANNOYING AF. THEY JUST KEEP ON CASTING CASTING CASTING. Also mobs putting multiple dispels on multiple party member feels really bad.

[@dylan24848]

I’ve been a healer main since MoP, regularly push CE and 3.2k+ IO every season. I’ve played every healer spec at this level(disc priest/hpal are my favs) and I’ve decided to stop playing this season. I actually enjoy TwW, the zones are cool, story is decent, hero talents are sweet, but healing just isn’t fun. Idk exactly what the problem is, I still have the itch the play wow because I love it but just can’t bring myself to get on to heal. I dread it. I even tried switching to dps(granted I’m terrible at dps) I couldn’t find a spec that I enjoyed like I used to enjoy healing. It’s sad 😔

[@tristansmeets6086]

1. Give aspect crests from a +5 2. Remove all oneshots , 1 mistake should NEVER kill no matter what level cap it at 80% of max hp 3. Remove interrupts and stuns and design dungeons with this in mind no 10+ casts in a pack but 2 casts that you need to play around and use defensives for 4.Make the focus on doing more dmg not seeing how to survive µ 5 . make a forced 1-1-3 setup so you can buff tanks and healers since they will be much stronger more people will want to play them 6. reduce button bloat 7. Remove time removal on death , the punishment is that you die timer should not be affected

[@MrWhitehomeboi]

If blizzard doesn’t make lower keys more manageable then the War Within will be known as their biggest fumble of all wow expansions.

[@UltimateGamerCC]

bit of an exaggeration aint it? like seriously, maybe for someone who ONLY ever does M+ and in that case that's on you for only playing PART of the game, much like how you talked down to Casuals for playing a fraction of the game.

[@SouthernDrinkSlinger]

@@UltimateGamerCC I did delves, I raid every season, and even dip in battlegrounds with the guild. However, if they do not fix mythic plus by next season I will uninstall the game. M+ was so fun and they ruined it. You can't pug at all on alts. So to answer your question, no it is not an exaggeration. M+ is larger than raid & pvp combined. You make it unfun & people stop subbing.

[@metsfan1932]

What on earth are you talking about, you can clear 2s/3s in leveling greens.

[@MrWhitehomeboi]

@@metsfan1932 2 and 3 are easy. But once you get into 4s the group that was easily clearing before is wiping every encounter and bricking their keys. Because people are getting free 603 champion track gear from delves they go into 4s and 5s (because anything lower doesn’t reward anything useful other than valorstones) and bricking keys because they don’t understand the dungeon mechanics.

[@metsfan1932]

@@MrWhitehomeboi I wish I could relate but I just didnt have that experience. I went into M+ week with about 580 ilvl, the first key we did we +3'ed into a 5. We then +2'd that into a 7 and then we started hitting a wall. 7s were a wall for about a week, then 9s became a wall for a week and now we're walled at 12. To me, this is a reasonable progression path and I dont understand why anyone would think that they should be progressing faster than that. A season is 20 weeks, its only week 5. We're just 25% done with the season. Why do people think they should have achieved all their goals already?

[@biotek.]

the only problem is that I want to play the game, not wait 1 hour to get into a group that will disband after 5 min or to wait for people to sign up to my group for 2 hours

[@thegombie]

I feel like dps have had it easy up to this point. TWW requires you to learn the enemies you face just like tanks have to, and use defensives according as well as interrupts to which attacks hit you. There are still alot of DPS out there that stick to the previous mentally of "just do damage" which is causing the majority of failed runs.

[@mark883nm]

for real? The damage is definitely overtuned specially on some aoe ability on bosses, if you use all your defendive cd's and healers still can't keep the group up, sorry, it isn't dps fault or healer fault, it's overtuning

[@Xakanis]

at 10s, still see dps not dispelling, not using potions, not using defensives when they know they need it, using defensives AFTER a major boss ability has gone off which means they have no idea how the boss actually works at 2500+ rating. DPS are horrible people, and they deserve waiting 2 hours for a group.

[@mark883nm]

@@Xakanis shield of vengeance you pop it and the half second later already bursted, then you use divine protection and self heal, what is left is divine shield die 5 minutes CD oh yes, great tools for totally fine tuned damage XD at the second time the boss does it's aoe dmg you are fucked up XD

[@syntse2293]

main pres evoker here, im more than a casual player 2.7k io and i enjoy challenges and pushing keys alone. This season I found myself stuck in transitioning early in the season from 3-4s then 7-8 and finally 9-10s (the heal gap in between levels was huge in early season). Now that people are better geared, the problem is 11s to 12s. Its impossible, basically the team has to be 100% health ALL THE TIME or else people get comboed AOE (from a mob that cant be stunned) + 1 cut that didnt go through. As pres, having hard HPS and 2 dispels is pretty damn nice compared to other healers, but with the stupid affixes Im obliged to handle full party affix dispel plus deadly ass debuffs plus healing everyone full health in an instant. I feel like this season is clearly reserved to resto shamans and no other healer can deal with ALL at the same time (poison, curses, slows, affixes, cuts 12s BTW! its a huge game design flop where only one healer class can climb. Theres a huge wall between 11 - 12s. This wasnt the case in previous expansions where the climb was way smoother. there should be 2 to 3 levels added in between each current mythic level. Atleast blizzard should give us that as a sense of progression since theres no actual mythic gear drops. I love my evoker and i love healing, but now im actually too scared/demotivated to even try pushing +12s it sucks. I seriously think about quitting this game

[@mothman84]

At this point, the real problem with M+ is that they are not hard enough for those players who are still playing M+. Blizzard chased all the casuals away, now it might as well give the tryhards a real challenge.

[@bendingUnit202]

You do realize, that an infinitely scaling System eventually poses a challenge to even the best Player? Lol idk what you are on about