Is Wusthof WRONG?! Mind-Blowing Results - I Defy Their Advice!

[@robertdewalt8711]

I would use either 10 degrees per side or 15 degrees per side, 20 degrees would be more for axe in my opinion. I think they are saying 20 degrees per side because they don’t want to get warranty calls about chipped knives when people misuse knife, I have always use 10 degrees per side for their knives as they are western style of knife.

[@iSharpen]

I agree that 15 DPS is about right. 10 DPS seems a bit "adventurous"...lol but I'm an advocate of make them as sharp as they can get. Also agree that 20 DPS is for hunting knives and I grind my axes at 25 DPS or convex by hand.

[@Goochgravysuppliers]

​@iSharpen I put a 17.1 or 17.2. i can't remember dps on my machete, lol. Does just fine with 1070 or 1075 so I don't see why someone would put a 20 to 25 on something besides a bone cleaver let alone a chef knife😭

[@iSharpen]

@@Goochgravysuppliers fractions of a degree? First time I’ve seen that.

[@2adamast]

10° is alike bread knives (mostly 0°+20°) and besides bones that's already heavy kitchen usage.

[@iSharpen]

@@2adamast I’m not sure we’re talking about the same thing. 10 degrees is extremely narrow and would make the edge extremely delicate and prone to easy damage. I’m not sure what you mean by zero degrees. I’ve experimented with 10 degrees per side of n a very thin Japanese nakiri and the edge bends like foil. A 10 degree angle wouldn’t last very long in any commercial kitchen and would have to be used extremely carefully in any application.

[@S.Vallieres]

Hi Baz, may I ask you what makes kangaroo leather different than let's say bovine leather? I heard kangaroo leather has a higher collagen volume/proportion, is it what makes the difference? Thanks in advance for your help.

[@iSharpen]

Kangaroo body leather is not the same as kangaroo tail leather. The tail has ridges built up over time and the old tales are the best. I did a video on it. Do a search on my videos for "kangaroo tail" and you'll find it. Cow leather isn't the same at all although it's better than nothing it often needs some sort of abrasive compound to remove the burr root. The kangaroo tail uses the ridges to remove that burr root (wire edge) that's often left over aver the honing process. It's special and unique among all leathers. Or so I'm lead to believe. My usage (as you can see) leads me to believe that's correct. I'd normally stop after the honing wheel but kangaroo tail leather has added immensely to my sharpness.

[@S.Vallieres]

@@iSharpen Thanks a lot for the precisions. I'll look for your " Kangaroo tail " video. Have a nice day!

[@Musicpins]

They recommend 40 degrees for the same reason highly regarded axe makers make handles overly thick, people abuse tools and they know it and wants their backs free. But what good is a knife that ain't sharp, or an axe handle that is almost so thick you might as well have used an iron pipe.

[@iSharpen]

That's exactly what I was thinking. They're just being safe. Ridiculous.

[@timpurcell2717]

I could never discern what angle was used here, other than not the recommended 20 degrees. The sharpening section of the Wusthof web site now says to sharpen at 14 DPS (degrees per side). However, they include a diagram showing this 14 DPS with a steel, not a sharpening stone. Furthermore, the 14 DPS (degrees per side) is measured relative to the flat of the blade. The edge bevel half-angle is then 14 plus the half-angle of the blade taper from spine to edge.

[@iSharpen]

@@timpurcell2717 I've determined that it doesn't matter. The entire sharpening community is far too obsessed with angle. Angle is not the most important thing.

[@vinnym5095]

When you strop, do you match the existing angle you sharpen at or a degree more or less?

[@iSharpen]

@@vinnym5095 good question. I always hone and strop at an increased angle because I’m not trying to polish the bevel, I’m trying to remove and dislodge the burr. When honing on the leather wheel I’m closer to the bevel angle but when stropping I’m focused on removing that stubborn root of the burr so I use a definitely increased angle. I’ve never used guided honing. Takes too long to set up, doesn’t make any noticeable difference and not always possible on longer knives without removing the grinding wheel.

[@vinnym5095]

@@iSharpen when you say you increase the angle, let’s say you sharpen at 15°, you strop at 14 or 16°?

[@iSharpen]

@@vinnym5095 no. That would be decreasing the angle. Think of it as “I stand the knife up” onto its edge. I aim for the apex.

[@swingbelly]

"An injury waiting to happen" An understatement indeed whenever sharpeniing. Flip the knife over, beware of the tip or the heel; fingers or hand too close to the grinding/honing wheel result in razor cuts that happen oh so quickly. From experience in not paying closer attention! No wonder Tormek provides bandages in their standard kit!

[@brianpage1886]

I have a set of Henckels, many of which I purchased 40 years ago. I use them all of the time and cook quite a bit. I use Japanese wet stones. Until recently I was finishing with 4000 grit. Always at 15 degrees. The edge lasts about 2 weeks. I can cut a tomato for the first a week. It took several hours per week to keep my knives in action. A couple of weeks ago I found a 300 grit Japanese stone in my shop on a dusty shelf. I must have bought it to sharpen garden tools years ago. I put new 15 degree bevels on all of my knives, then finished with a 'fast' 1000 grit stone. It changed my life. I stopped using my steel last year as I think I was doing more harm than good. No time for fine stones any more. 1000 grit is it. I love my knives, but I realise that the steel is soft. The Henckels are general purpose kitchen knives. They can spatchcock a chicken. split a lobster shell or cut a crab in half all day long without chipping. Mine have no damage at all after decades of use, but you do need to sharpen constantly. I schedule time before family get togethers just to sharpen so I can serve food. I have a 'cheap' Japanese carving knife which is really hard and stays sharp almost forever. I use it only for slicing roasts as it is really hard to sharpen with my stones. I have a Chinese cleaver which is hard so I am quite careful with it as I think I could chip it easily. The bevel on it looks to be at around 25 degrees. Thanks for making your videos. You are very generous with your time and knowledge. I am thinking about buying a T8. It could save me hours and hours on my kitchen knives. I have a large pile of wet stones on the kitchen counter and they are driving the wife crazy. She hasn't said anything yet as she likes having sharp knives as much as I do. I have used Japanese Water stones for the last 40 years in the wood shop. Now with a wife and kids I can't make the time to keep everything sharp and get work done at the same time. I have been looking at the knock off copies of the T8. They look good, but I noticed that the Tormek warranty is quite long. I have owned too many tools that ended up in the recycling bin one day after the one year warranty is over. I also have a ton of dull drill bits. 50 years ago I was taught to sharpen a drill be free hand. You think I can do that now? Same for HSS tool bits in the lathe. I am just hopeless free hand. T8 might work for me.

[@iSharpen]

@@brianpage1886 you will NOT EVER regret buying T8. The nice you master it you will have razor sharp knives again in 10 minutes. You will also like that they finish at 1,000 grit. I finish all knives on a (kangaroo tail) leather strip after honing the very spec of the edge at 8,000 grit with green chrome oxide on the standard leather honing wheel. Chefs love my sharps. Just buy one. Look for a used second hand one (both of mine are used units) but do not buy a cheap knock off. You will regret it. They look the same but there are many small differences. Tormek also makes a drill sharpening attachment but it's quite expensive. I got one with one of my used T8s but never used it and preferred to sell it to help pay for my used machine which after selling off some extra jigs that came with it was basically free. Just buy a T8. Trust me. You will never regret it. My videos will teach you how to use it.

[@Snarlacc]

They say 20°ps because they know many people won't be careful enough for a lower edge angle. It might cut better at 15 ° or lower, but it also can get damaged easier. I gifted someone a santoku (western style 55HRC, so not that hard) and she chips the hell out of the edge at 15°- I don't know for sure what she does but think it's the pushing of food over the cutting board with the edge down. Had to lower the angle to around 20° for it not to come back chipped after each use.

[@iSharpen]

@@Snarlacc you're probably right.

[@Justwannabefree]

Hello from Canada, what are those stone dressing plates you are using on the wheel ? I just have the one from tormek but what you have looks interesting

[@iSharpen]

Hello Canada! I have a video on it. Got the idea from Knife Grinders Australia. Watch this... kzbin.info/www/bejne/bHi0haGtaZKjlZY

[@carlantaya175]

For steeling the knife you can go at a higher angle for the same reason you go at a higher angle with the honing wheel. To adjust/re-align the very apex of the cutting edge. You probably would have got similar results with the knife steel that you did with the kangaroo strop.

[@iSharpen]

@@carlantaya175 that's a fair point about the higher angle. Not sure I can 100% agree with a steel being equal to a kangaroo tail strop though but it's an interesting opinion.

[@Skarphedin]

Good job on that German, look a lot clearer now , thanks for the video very informative

[@iSharpen]

I appreciate the encouragement. I was a bit shocked at that final score, I'll be honest.

[@docwilliams01]

great vid, thanks! btw, do you find use for the sj250 japanese stone? i like the sound of them, but just hellishly expensive...

[@iSharpen]

@@docwilliams01 save your money. They're entirely unnecessary and haven't improved my sharpness. SG-250 will do everything you need.

[@docwilliams01]

@@iSharpen ok, thanks man!

[@BladeLabMiami]

I always sharpen mainstream kitchen knives like this at 15 dps.

[@iSharpen]

Yeah, 20 degrees is ridiculous. I’m a bit disappointed with Wusthof for suggesting 20 degrees. I expected more from them.

[@alextan2465]

The bolster looks long in the tooth. The heel of the knife may not be in contact with the cutting board, sorry I commented before watching the full video. Nice job taking care of the bolster

[@iSharpen]

@@alextan2465 yeah, full bolsters are always a hassle. I trim as needed. Appreciate your comment.

[@feralgrandad4429]

Surely thats a typo? 40° inclusive? I run 15° per side on my wusthof & zwilling knives.

[@iSharpen]

@@feralgrandad4429 upon further discussion we've concluded that they must be referring to honing on the rod. Given that honing only refers to treating (straightening the edge and any burrs that may have developed over time) the edge it's the only thing that makes sense.

[@buckw65]

I'm so impressed with how well you're radius turns out. I'm hoping with practice, I can replicate that some day

[@iSharpen]

@@buckw65 the radius on the wheel? Or the radius at the heel of the knife?

[@buckw65]

@@iSharpen the cutting edge farthest from the heel.... I need to learn all the parts of a knife to communicate better

[@iSharpen]

@@buckw65 ah, the tip. Yeah, I hated the way it always looked unfinished using the standard Tormek way so I taught myself the tip first technique. Try it. You’ll be impressed.

[@1998TDM]

I really enjoyed your vid, thank you, but can't help but notice that this knife has done some work and had plenty of work done to it. It's reached the point, heh, where the original bevel angle has to be adjusted to compensate for the thickness of the edge. Not trying to dis in anyway but as knives wear it;s important to understand that sharpening angle has to accommodate for this. Or thin the blade on flat stones. If I missed you pointing this out, my apologies. The dog was hitting me with the remains of her rubber chicken while I watched. With those damn bolsters I knock them back before sharpening and then run them across the stone as I sharpen so that the bolster indicates the edge angle. One of the reasons they are there in the first place on old school knives, Sabatiers in particular. Nowadays I think they are there more to help with balance on a relatively heavy blade.

[@iSharpen]

@@1998TDM it wasn’t worn that much. Probably an optical illusion on the video. Size of the bevel doesn’t matter as much as the sharpness of the edge in my view. Grinding the bolster is always done before the sharpening but can sometimes need adjusting as the knife is ground down below the trimmed bolster. I like to make sure that none of it remains in the way which is why I had to adjust it. Appreciate the kind words and glad you enjoyed the vid.

[@alf699]

Wusthof now uses 14 degree per side on all their Western Style knifes and 10 degree on the asian style knifes. I think that the instructions on the back of the cover is a bit misleading. They are talking about sharpening/honing the edge with a steel. So yes, the micro-bevel at the very edge is always steeper. You even demo that on your T8 honing wheel.

[@iSharpen]

Interesting. They use the word "sharpening" on the instructions and I doubt the average user will understand that's just a honing angle and not a sharpening angle. They call the steel a "sharpening" steel which is also the incorrect term. If they're going to give instructions they should give proper instructions or none at all. They're one of the top knife manufacturers on the planet, they should know better. But are you saying that they've now started using 14 degrees per side on their instructions? Maybe this is an old packet and they've updated it since then. 14 degrees sounds way better. Not too sure about 10 degrees though (on any knife). Sounds radically steep to me but I don't know everything. I do have a Japanese Nakiri that I've sharpened at 10 degrees and I can almost see the bevels flexing with fingernail pressure. Thanks for the info. I'll add it to my brain.

[@alf699]

@@iSharpen Yes, they do now recommend those angles. It took me a while to find them on their original website when I looked about a months ago. The reason for checking is that we replaced some of our knifes with Wusthof Cassic Icons. We have 3 knifes that are Wusthof classics and were given to us as a Wedding present. These are now over 30 years old and have very little material removed over that time. My ""home/Enthusiast" sharpening has all been done with a "Edge Pro Professional" system for the last 15 years. I just got a Tormek T8 a few months ago and am still in the learning phase of it. I got the T8 as I was getting more and more badly chipped knifes from extended family members and the Edge Pro just takes too long and too much hard work for that kind of damage. By the way, Tormek has just come out with a new Knife Angle Setting unit (specific for knifes). Its model number is: KS-123. I can highly recommend it as it gives extreme accuracy in setting the blade/bevel angle. Excellent for when you know what the factory angle should be and you want to bring it back to that, so ignoring whatever angle it is now.

[@iSharpen]

@@alf699 Good to know about the angle. Just looked it up and found this... "WÜSTHOF knives can be honed and sharpened using a hand-held sharpener, an electric sharpener, a sharpening or honing steel, or a whetstone. We recommend using the same brand sharpener as your knife collection, to ensure that the material used is the correct hardness for the steel on your knives. Our sharpening angle for standard blades is 14˚ per side, and for Asian-style blades (Santokus, Nakiris) is 10˚ per side. We offer a variety of sharpening products with pre-set angles... " Source: www.wusthof.com/support/faq As for the KS-123. Not a fan at all. The WM-200 does the exact same job in 3 seconds. I won't be buying it just to make a simple job difficult. If I was to adopt using the KS-123 in a commercial setting I'd go broke or at least cut my income in half on a busy day. In my opinion, it's effectiveness and efficiency is a furphy. But what do I know? I'm just a stubborn fathead. I didn't get even half way through their video before deciding it was an over complicated unnecessary waste of time.

[@alf699]

@@iSharpen I honestly do not think that the angle setter is for professionals that sharpen who knows how many knifes a day. Spatially if you have been using the original angle Setter for years and after hundreds of uses are now very proficient in accuracy and speed. Having said that....the video is over complicated and ones you have used the new one for a few times, you find that it's actually really simple. It's more for people like me who sharpen knifes here and there with no real time limit. There is one great thing I like about it. I can set the angle, sharpen the knife and then with an additional accessory flip the T8 around and set a 1/2 degree steeper angle on the honing wheel (trailing). This then polishes the very edge only and leaves no burr behind. It is great for that and prevents a too shallow or too steep an angle when honing/polishing the edge on the T8.

[@iSharpen]

@@alf699 if you like it, that’s good. A man can’t have enough toys or tools in the workshop. I’ve never used guided honing though. I find that it also slows me down unnecessarily and given I get sone if the lowest BESS scores on KZbin I think my techniques work. Furthermore I like to think my videos prove you don’t need much more than the basic items. Not that anyone could call a Tormek basic but I’m referring to an SG wheel, a basic WM-200 Angie finder, freehand honing using my “find the grip” technique, a decent (kangaroo tail or buffalo) strop and some cigarette papers for testing. It did take me a while to arrive at this level but that’s why I make these videos, to show people how they can get fantastic results using my simple methods and borrowing from my experience. But as long as we’re all playing with knives, that’s the main thing. Knives are fun, razor sharp knives, doubly so.

[@AlliKat75]

20 degrees is for the steel not honing. The steel straightens the burr, it doesn't set the angle.

[@iSharpen]

I know that, you know that but they use the word sharpening on the package. The customer saw that and wanted 20 degrees "as per factory". This is the second time I've sharpened that knife for her after the initial 20 degrees failed to satisfy. She's happy now.

[@twatmunro]

I've got that same Wusthof. It's the worst knife I own. That bolster is a PITA.

[@iSharpen]

@@twatmunro grind it down so it’s out of the way. The steel is good, trust me. It can also be the best knife you own. Give it another chance. Having said that, I prefer the IKON with a half bolster and a free heal edge. I know what you mean. If you hate it that much, sell it to me. Or send it to me and I’ll make a movie out of making it great again and send it back.

[@lilfairycupcake]

not good. you need to find someone who knows what they are doing, to teach you how to sharpen my friend.

[@1998TDM]

@@iSharpen I recently sharpened 40 of them, exact same knife, but "maintained" by some one with a wobbly hand,, one eye and nothing more than a 6000 rippums bench grinder and concrete wheel. What a mess. Burned tips, #40 grit finish, no curve, no heel.. I cried a little.

[@iSharpen]

@@1998TDM the world needs us. That’s for sure.

[@TheStaniG]

Subbed for your character ;)

[@iSharpen]

@@TheStaniG haha, I’ll take it! Goofballs unite!

[@jackdorsey4850]

According to Google, most Western chef knives are 20 degree

[@iSharpen]

@@jackdorsey4850 not sure I can agree with that. Depends who they say is saying that. Doesn't sound like the person who said that knows as much as they think they do. No legit knife sharpener would say that. I certainly wouldn't.

[@jackdorsey4850]

@@iSharpen Sounds good to me

[@kvernesdotten]

Hey Baz. I will take the hint and stop engaging. Good luck in your endeavours!

[@iSharpen]

@@kvernesdotten why? What hint?

[@DimitarBurhamov]

I feel like stropping gets a little burr edge up which is very very sharp but it folds or it falls off after cutting something. ofc this is just impression as a newbie sharpener i might be doing something wrong or every thing wrong 🥲

[@iSharpen]

Actually, it's the opposite. Stropping on kangaroo tail leather removes not only the burr but also the more important root of the burr to reveal nothing but pure edge, a lower BESS score and increased edge retention. Have you watched the Knife Grinder's Videos on kangaroo leather stropping advantages? kzbin.info/www/bejne/pXTHg6qMgK9sq6M I'd also recommend downloading his PDF on the topic as well. knifegrinders.com.au/SET/Hanging_Strop_in_Knife_Sharpening.pdf In it (page 5) he writes..."We do not use any honing compounds at all on the hanging strop, and let the natural leather do the burnishing work. Since the burnishing displaces metal not abrading it, we have no risk of abrading off the ultra-sharp apex of the edge, no risk of "rounding the edge"."

[@DimitarBurhamov]

@@iSharpen I have not! Thank you for the recommendation, i will look into it. As for strops i have used the back side of a belt with some stropping compound marketed for razors, i know it might sound funny but as i said i'm just meddling into sharpening. Also i'm finishing on a 3k grit whetstone since when i started out i though high polish means superior sharpness (i don't think so anymore), recently i polished a big thick bushcrafting knife edge to 3k it feels soo smooth it has hard time catching into anything. We learn as we live 😀 Anyways thank you for the reply i will read up good on these strops!

[@iSharpen]

@@DimitarBurhamov If you're knife's not cutting as it should, there can only be two reasons: 1) the edge needs to be apexed better or 2) you still have some burr or burr root remaining. Get some cigarette rolling papers and try slicing them. Don't stop altering your method until you can slice at least vertically. That'll put you at around 100 BESS. If you can slice silently with a push cut through cigarette rolling paper then you almost certainly have no burr root (wire edge) remaining and it's as sharp as it needs to be.

[@DimitarBurhamov]

@@iSharpen Neat trick, i will definitely try it. Yes. i know that much about apexing, maybe i have left a burr that folded over, my process of removing burr on the smooth stone is to decrease passes by 5 on each side, like 40 per side 35 per side... etc etc. then i would alternate each side passing once (i was lead to believe this is a good way of removing or minimising burr when sharpening)

[@iSharpen]

@@DimitarBurhamov Cigarette paper testing (much cheaper than a BESS tester) will tell you if you're heading in the right direction. That's how I have improved. The kangaroo tail strop is new for me but it's really improved my scores as you saw in this movie. 86 BESS means that no burr or burr root remains and I have pure apex.