Is Zone 2 & Base Training A Waste of Time?

[@gtn]

How would you tweak your training plan with this new information? 🤔

[@Nyelands]

I don't base or tweak my training on the current trends of influencers.

[@alfiepilkington6927]

I train different throughout the seasons in the winter I train hard and summer I train hard 💪

[@xander0901]

When you think about the cost/benefits of zone 2 and high intensity training, obviously high intensity work is more time efficient in terms of the time during the session, but zone 2 can be done more consistently without needing as much recovery. As someone who works a 4-day/10-hour job with a significant commute, recovery time can be limited on my workdays. Getting zone 2 training done before heading into the office has been a great way for me to build consistency without compromising my recovery.

[@zacsborntorunrunningadvent3441]

Exactly. A 10km run with 25min on Anaerobic threshold work is much harder on the body then a 10km easy run in Zone2... can easily do another 7km in zone2 that evening vs potential soreness from a An.T session.

[@RoliRegenbogen]

Can we get a moms and dads "I simply want to finish a full ironman once in whatever hours" training plan?

[@UtahRunning]

I would love this honestly

[@advex4428]

Until they do that, you might wanna check Matt Fitzgerald's book "80/20 Triathlon", which contains 4 different time budget's training plans for Ironman, Half Ironman, Olympic, and Sprint.

[@raven2k714]

The reality is that you should do both, that means lower intensity days combined with threshold and tempo days.

[@nikitaw1982]

What about strength in the gym? I bet strong muscles as a base better than weak ones.

[@raven2k714]

@nikitaw1982 sure, if can manage to get some strength fitted in your plan, do it! Strength is a necessity, so don't sleep on it and don't overdo it:) 1-2 strength trainings a week is enough

[@raven2k714]

@@Chris-jc3lr not necessarily:) depends on the effort you put into z2:) you can also restructure your plan:) but if z1 works for you, stay with it:)

[@frankgeppert8972]

@@Chris-jc3lr I also have good experience with running in low zone 2. Zone 1 is for running when I feel fatigue in my body - just for relaxation.

[@chadhildwein2178]

​@@Chris-jc3lr Sounds like you're going too hard on your zone2 workouts

[@JoergSiegwarth]

Why we just go out an run, swim, ride etc. and forget about social media trying to hold us in a in between space of whats right or wrong? Make it simple: move, listen to your body, react to it and everything will work out fine. We are not elite athletes.

[@Nyelands]

Exactly!

[@lukaszczegotutaj]

Not elites still want to improve.

[@Nyelands]

@@lukaszczegotutaj Yes but with all the contradicting advise and information overload you get decision fatigue before deciding what kind of running you should do.

[@onoriotorti795]

For us people who don't have a lot of time what's really important too is being specific , easy days really easy, and hard days really hard, and making sure your body is absorbing the training 💪

[@neil9525]

This isn’t true. Anyone at 6hrs plus per week should look at polarizing their training.

[@Burps___]

I agree completely with this statement by @onoriotorti795. And the gentleman on the video is correct, it’s not 80/20 but (my numbers) more like 70/30 or 60/40 given the amateur’s limited training time.

[@Nyelands]

@@neil9525 How is what you said different from what he said?

[@zacsborntorunrunningadvent3441]

​@@Nyelandsbecause really hard "days" may be counter productive compared with simply doing much more Aerobic work & just 1 "hard session" that wk. Thats what he would mean.

[@ThaOrg]

It’s this a clickbait title? Yes! Did it work? Yes! Did I learn anything, nope! Conclusion Base training is not a waste of time, watching this content was. 😅

[@samirdeoliveiraferreira9594]

Exactly. Clickbaiting 101 here. The guy he was interviewing pretty much said what everyone else is saying. Do base training and sometimes high intensity. The controversial title is just for views

[@hargirai900]

Personally I've included Zone 3 as part of my Aerobic base building. I'd typically start off in Zone 2 and finish the final third in Zone 3 as I find I stagnated with pure Zone 2, I think the body needs that extra stimulus Zone 3 gives you whilst remaining aerobic. Combined with a smaller portion of Zone 4 and 5 I've found my fitness improve in a sustained enjoyable way. Cheers all

[@forza1860muc]

This tipp highly depends on which Zone Model you are using.

[@hargirai900]

Hi I'm referring to the 5 Zone model Although @Zone 3 you incorporate more carbs for fuel, the system is still aerobic. I feel it's important to add a bit more stimulus after pure Zone 2 as I've found my fitness began to plateu.

[@zacsborntorunrunningadvent3441]

1 run in zone3 staying 90-94% lt2 heartrate for about 40min a wk in a base phase is excellent for raising the Aerobic LT1 near 90% lt2 over time. Majority of zone2 per wk at 80-88% lt2 works great especially with additional jogging at 71-79% lt2 or zone1

[@hersheyskwertz9315]

4 days a week. Training my xc running daughter. Here’s what we got. Mon. Easy run (z1-2) Tue. Intervals (6-5-4-3-2-1) increasing speed and recover as the length of time decreases Thu. Hills or Stairs Weekend. Long run (z1-2)

[@richardmiddleton7770]

Obviously not a waste of time! It's aerobic training which 99% of endurance sports are! Sure you'll get aerobic adaptations at higher intestines but also you'll accumulate a LOT of fatigue. It all comes down to aerobic training! Most coaches selling you complicated interval training programs don't want you to know this!

[@Nessunego]

Off season 80:20 and more weight lifts. Near season: more treshold and race pace training.

[@AlbertWeijers]

They never tell you if 80/20 is distance or time.

[@Nessunego]

@AlbertWeijers Off season: time. Near season: distance.

[@Legendarylynx622]

@@AlbertWeijersit’s intensity so zone 2 is time x ~0.65 and higher intensity is about time x ~0.9

[@vladfromfrance]

@@AlbertWeijers There isn't an exact limit, so it doesn't matter that much for average. If you are doing 75-25 or 85-15, you're fine.

[@AnTalk_blog]

bla bla bla bla bla .... Z2 & Base training is not a waste of time. I noticed a trend in this fitness, sport, longevity space. Almost every channel I followed preached Z2 training for years and recently all started to post content challenging that concept only to conclude that it's still necessary. It's time to unsubcribe.

[@florianrademacher7472]

Have done the 80/20 device for three years now - no improvement. Doing less Zone 2, more harder work helped me to get better. Time crunched, 8 hours per week.

[@ironman140.6]

Listen up!! GTN guys! Base training with Zone 3 and 4 combined in your daily routine is key with all swim/bike/run sessions. The guideline is to avoid injury in distance and intensity on a monthly basis. I have never had an injury following this method. It simulates a race environment and trains your body so that toward the end of the race, you don't fail. Increase your distance by 15% monthly and 10% intensity to reach your level vs distance.

[@marcuswills6569]

🤣

[@DavidFritzIII]

I really enjoy my Z2 focus phases they mix everything up and I honestly tend to notice big gains afterwards

[@RewildingFlanders]

Best part of the video (and very useful) starts from 10:12 .

[@kevinsteele4455]

With the winter months coming, this is a well timed video! Love the content!

[@joetokarczyk8753]

Watch tv or zone 2,? It's never a waste of time

[@EmileKleinhans]

I do both at the same time, treadmill in living room😅

[@marcuswills6569]

The "offseason" is entirely down to the individual and what works for them (everyone's different and therefore no right or wrong answer), sometimes learnt historically from previous seasons. I personally do very little of anything tempo or above up to Christmas, then start in the new year. The idea is it allows your body to fully recover from the previous season whilst allowing your body to peak at the right time.

[@JakobThusgaard]

Personally, I try to train pyramidal during base and build. Then shift to polarized to peak. Finally taper at same intensity and reduced volume.

[@neil9525]

I wish you’d just linked Dylan Johnson. There are plenty of studies that look at ‘80:20’ work (be it pyramidal or polarized), and a fair amount of them are done in 6-8hr/wk training sessions. Sweet spot/intervals/threshold sessions activate the autonomic nervous system and delay recovery beyond the physical exertion you have. There is no good reason/logic/evidence to not do a large amount of ‘zone 2’ (5 zone model) work if you want to get the best out of your training. Closer to race season, more ‘specificity’ is important depending on what you’re doing, but you should still be doing largely zone 2 work. Sadly there is not one study specifically quoted or referenced in this video…

[@mbs6585]

Get fit quick with intervals and HIIT style sessions. But you can’t get around the fact that if you want endurance you need a base to work from. I personally think you could probably get very good at any event below 1hr 30 with just intervals. Anything over base training is required. Also, please try and increase volume with interval high intensity work, shortcut to injury…

[@helenreed3780]

What is actually meant by Zone 2 training? If you are training using pace then of course it starts to become a waste of time, or as mentioned at the end of the video later in the base phase you may want to pick up the pace and do tempo, but if you train using heart rate run as you improve you run a faster z2 pace.

[@richardmiddleton7770]

Your zone 2 pace will increase very gradually and takes years.

[@rileygshep7606]

Zone 2 refers to heart rate zones, based on a 5 zone system But zone 2 is basically slightly above your conversational pace

[@BruceDouglass]

I've been competing in endurance events for over 50 years now (and I also have an MS in exercise physiology) and I train 12-14 hours/week in a combination of activities. My experience is clear - when I do more Z2 work, my fitness drops, even if I keep up my Z4/Z5 intervals. What works best for me is mostly working at tempo (Z3 with some Z4 periods), 1-2 sessions of Z4/Z5, plus one or more long sessions of 3+ hours) per week. If I add more z2 work at the expense of the Z3 work, my V02 max drops as much as 10%.

[@lars3509]

I will try that. Thanks. As most studies on Z2 training are probably made with professionell athletes I have some hesitance against it. Their z2 is probably my z4 and they spend more time in their Z4 than I can spend on my entire program...

[@DavidFritzIII]

Are you testing VO2max in a lab or with your watch?

[@thenayancat8802]

It seems to me that the value of lots of Z2 is that it allows you to build to 12+ hours per week of training without getting injured all the time, but that generally higher intensity training will have a much larger effect.

[@BruceDouglass]

@@Chris-jc3lr I understand the oft-stated hypothesis that if you're not recovered, you can't put out adequate intensity during Z4 internals. To that end, I took several weeks of reduced effort where Z2 replaced Z3 efforts, and did 2 HIIT workouts/week (4x4 Norwegian style intervals) and found that I was unable to increase my Z4/Z5 interval intensity despite lower efforts during the other days. My conclusion that was I was adequately recovering from my Z3 workouts and performing less work on the lower intensity days did not increase my ability to perform during the Z4/Z5 workouts. I should mention that I compete in ultra endurance events such as 24-hr, 400 mile, and longer events in cycling, as well as Ironman triathlons. Different people having differing tolerances for effort and I find I can tolerate up to 20 hours/week before I see significant degradation in my workout quality. Working out fewer than 10 hours sees no improvement in workout quality over 12-14 hours. I've done the experiments.

[@BruceDouglass]

@@DavidFritzIII I use Garmin with a Wahoo heart rate strap. I agree its not as accurate as a lab test, but it is much more accessible. I think the absolute accuracy is less than lab testing but the relative changes are pretty good; it is also highly repeatable.

[@JasonHollis-hg6vg]

It's funny the first year of running. Trying to do this base training. Everyone just felt hard. It's only now that I'm a lot fitter. That I can truly appreciate a nice easy run! It's the same with my calisthenics! I never understood greasing the groove! But now I'm strong. I can actually do it!

[@michaelvrbanac6923]

Great comments. I watch a series on Netflix or Amazon while doing zone 1/2 training. I go into higher zones for short periods during steeper sections of climbs, but my average is zone 2.

[@PatrickDelorenzi]

Great video guys

[@williammartin9450]

I'm looking at your shoes in the background ....is that the new toasted marshmallow midsole for cold wet days, when you can't be bothered doing any kind of run? 😄

[@gtn]

They stay warmed up in case an unexpected social run pops up.

[@donalanseo310]

Love this, would like to see more abkut training. That personal example was great, if you could go into that a bit more :) I found coaches I've had, the training doesnt change too much throughout the year. Always working on all the zones. Week days look very simialr. Weekend is what chamges the most with more specificity towards race goal.

[@nikanj]

I was surprised to hear Dr Shepherd advocate for fasted Zone 2 training. I thought the litriture was still inconclusive about the benefits of fasted training.

[@marinrodriguez7729]

In the end, it all comes down to your personal goals. Complete an Ironman? Break 6 hrs in 70.3? Be competitive at your local sprint? The training should always support the goals. Breaking up the routine is a great way to stay mentally fresh. Ride or run a new route just to explore a new location or swim with a new group or at a different pool ( or jump in open water). As we age, goals change and we need to adjust the training in support of those goals. Dont forget, we are doing this for fun and fitness in pursuit of a long a healthy life! Im 30 years into my tri journey and looking forward to the next 30!

[@HS-fm9kv]

As a middle aged runner- typically at bottom of top 10-15% of my age group- I find that I need high intensity for VO2Max/ better performance but the impact = difficulty managing injury- particularly at back end of training block- despite all the strength and conditioning training!

[@amblincork]

Your post really says very little about the training you are doing -talking about high intensity for V02Max does really say that much

[@philstone2610]

Not just the shoes melting. What about the drinks bottle! Is this a good idea?!?!?

[@bmp713]

Zone 2 Base training is much more about maximizing stroke volume at an intensity that minimizes fatigue than mitochondria. The muscles can only use the oxygen the heart can deliver. Non athletes are better off with upper Zone 2 and some Zone 3.

[@brannmacfinnchad9056]

Thanks for this. I've been using Sufferfest and doing almost an inverted pyramid (or diamond?), and after *checks calendar* about 8 weeks of 2/1s, I'm struggling with motivation and possibly plateaued. And my maximal aerobic--even though the workouts are heavy on that--has diminished from my peak a year ago when I was winning hill climb races on Zwift.

[@amys7199]

Dr. Stacy Sims has done research on middle age female athletes and she has evidence that they have very different Zone 2 needs. It would be interesting to have you interview her and apply it to tri training.

[@nikitaw1982]

What about strength in the gym? Aerobic base hours vs yoga and heavy lifting?

[@benlangford4850]

Your shoes are melting!

[@gtn]

Since they're carbon shoes, we thought the fireplace would be the right place for them

[@marie-louisekarlander2366]

I’m lucky (or stupid) I got one coach so he do my plan. I’m actually will compete T100 next season, so it’s not IM distance. So when I suffer in Zwift I feel stupid that I really pay money for this suffering, but when I see the results I’m happy. I’m 58 years old and ag since many years. It seems that I got one mix of different of lower and higher intensity. We training in blocks now around three weeks tougher blocks, and than we got one recovery block around 5 days with shorter and easier training. Strength training 😝, more than ever, two heavy workouts per week 2x1 h and two easy short workouts 15-30 min coordination strength/week. (Time for the heavy one right now) Now something totally different- I wonder Mark, how it goes for the guy you learned to swim? I also wonder how it goes for the group of new beginner runners, them who run 5 k . Do they still running/training? // Marie-Louise

[@deltagamer4016]

I stared training this after 2-3 yrs of being a couch potato and reduced my 5k time from 35 to 26 mins, while my max hr is really high and I can maintain 200+ bpm for more than 5 minutes but my running time won't go down because of my trashy aerobic capacity although I think I can push harder but don't think it will be safe so I think zone 2 training is really important hence started zone 2 running from this month. Right now my VO2 max is 46 ( reduced from 47 after 2 month not running due to patella tendon injury).

[@jmdelira87]

I like the logic here. I’ve used AI training apps and my complaint is that those apps focus too much on its coding. It’s written to the letter of the law without using human logic to adapt to our work schedules. I thoroughly enjoyed this video.

[@Burps___]

Trees don’t grow to the sky 🌳 and similarly, aerobic capacity is not limitless.

[@MR-wh5wp]

How long do you have to ride to get the benefits of a zone 2 ride?

[@Burps___]

Easy running companions are like mushrooms after a rainstorm 🍄, but finding a fellow runner to run hard days hard together is a drought.

[@ryanochse73_yt]

Zone 1 = Zone 2 = Zone 3 =🥵 Zone 4 =💀 Zone 5 =🥵

[@NewBeginnings-vx6ic]

Zone 1 = 😏 Zone 2 = 😖 Zone 3 = 😍 Zone 4 = 😊 Zone 5 = 😶‍🌫

[@gtn]

😂

[@candiceverpaelst-ud3kk]

Base training also helps the musculoskeletal system gently and gradually build the strength to sustain higher intensities without getting hurt! The more the better, why not! This video makes it sound like it's not important, can give ppl the wrong impression

[@LuisSotogarabatoz]

30% Easy 30% Tempo 20% HIIT 20% OFF You’re welcome

[@LuisFernandoGarcia-f2q]

nah dude too much hard effort and not enough easy

[@ariffau]

It’s like aero, if you don’t race, it doesn’t matter. Just train for a better self 😄

[@caliinc6192]

if u want to live long u dont train at all :) just let your body adapt to all situations you dont need any muscle or anything extra .. it just is more weight for your heart

[@bojanmerela5892]

Why just not 80/20 all year round?

[@frankgeppert8972]

My experience is that zone 2 training in a 80/20-manner (bipolar approach) did not help me much. I accumulate too much base training but not enough medium and high intensity. For me it is better to have interval and tempo sessions within the week and a long run on the weekend. I am sure it is different, when you are a pro athlete with 2 training sessions per day. Then of course you have to do more base training, just to get a little regeneration. But this probably does not count for a hobby athlete. We have less sessions and it is way more important to spend the little time we have in a quality way to get the most out of it, not just to aggregate volume...

[@peelben]

Yes. As far as I can tell, the main benefit of the low intensity stuff is that you can pack in more sessions without needing as much rest and repair. That's probably great for a pro who wants to run every day, but if it can really make you faster, that just goes against everything I've learned about building muscle and fitness. If you are staying well within your limits 80% of the time, where's the progressive overload? We get fitter by pushing at those limits. I could be completely wrong but I don't see why running would work differently to every other sport, and for an amateur who just wants better 5 & 10k times, the pyramid stuff smells strongly of b.s. If someone can actually explain why it's not just junk volume, I'm all ears. Every vid just trots out the same "building a base" line, but that will happen naturally as you progress further and faster surely.

[@teplak4805]

No better training ground than pushing your mitochondria to the limit! It'll make you a fine Jedi

[@Eddie-3466]

Rest is more important than doing Zone 2 workouts. Thats my opinion.

[@emberchord]

Betterridges law checking out once again

[@andrewturner5706]

Bumbling along saying it might do this or you might do that?

[@christophermanson6754]

Can someone please tell me what LT1 and lt2 mean

[@bekachanturia8901]

Lactate threshold 1 & 2

[@JanneRasanen2]

Look for videos or Google lactate threshold 1 & 2. It is how the body responds To increasing power. Different systems work at different power.

[@christophermanson6754]

@@JanneRasanen2 Thank you for the informative answer!

[@duschendestroyer]

Doing only base training is great while you focus on other sports

[@FunkZoned]

Yes! TLDW

[@jakeva9802]

What’s up with the weirdo at 7:52? Looks sketchy af

[@Venwayy]

Nobody really runs zone anyway ;D

[@mattyice1710]

I did a season of 80/20 and wasn’t impressed with the results. For me, zone 2 wasn’t enough of a progressive overload to stimulate hypertrophic response. I was pretty low volume so ymmv. In the past I have done high volume, low intensity and it worked great. Except I felt awful every run until I tapered and raced. Kind of defeats the purpose of low intensity if you feel awful all the time.

[@user-el3rp6nh5m]

say that to mark allen

[@SherryJav]

Short answer: no Long answer: No

[@JohnSmith-rx2uv]

This isn't true at all

[@Edward-bn2vw]

The background music is annoying. Deleted.

[@pancakewhale]

No it's not

[@Duke877877]

I learned nothing. Same old stuff repeated, but in very unstructured way.

[@markthrelfall3577]

It sounds like you’re all sorted then. You would be surprised how many people simply train easy in the off season because “that’s what I have been told”. I was not looking to find some groundbreaking answer, but educate those that are perhaps not following a very structured training programme, and getting the most out of themselves

[@johnbgriffinjr116]

“Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something”… Socrates… There are plenty of people who did indeed learn from this video ✌🏼

[@markthrelfall3577]

@@johnbgriffinjr116many thanks John 👍

[@ironman140.6]

Mark your methods are Middle Ages systems - sorry!

[@Duke877877]

@@johnbgriffinjr116 Mark asked to give comment about what you learned. So I'm just doing my part and giving feedback.

[@Gohealt]

Bland video, some charisma would be appreciated !

[@emf1775]

Shut up, he’s a good presenter

[@Gohealt]

@@emf1775hopefully you are that loyal to your family as well ;)