Belligerent Aliens

[@silverharloe]

I'm reminded of how Niven described humanity's first encounter with the Kzinti. The proud warrior race assumed that since the human vessel was unarmed and the crew was seeking a peaceful encounter, that humanity was easy prey and obviously terrible at war, so they attacked immediately. The humans proved one of Isaac's favorite observations (no unarmed interstellar vessels) by using their comm laser and fusion engines to utterly obliterate the Kzinti. Then it was explained that humans were seeking peace not because they were terrible at war, but quite the opposite - because humans were so very, *very* good at war that they had opted to take the Sagan route.

[@EvelynNdenial]

applies to the culture too "You people have spent ten millennia playing at soldiers while becoming ever more dedicated civilians. We've spent the last thousand years trying hard to stay civilian while refining the legacy of a won galactic war"

[@Arkantos117]

@Michael Bishop The klingons do have scientists, technicians etc. They just get treated with different amounts of respect depending on the time in history.

[@filip0x0a98]

Could you please tell me in which book by Niven was that? I'd like to read it. thanks

[@KatyaAbc575]

That sounds like a wholy stupid civilisation. Not realising that machines designed shoot hot plasma at 10s to 100s thousands of kilometres can be weaponised. You dont need to be a genius to realise that. Just basic understanding of Newtons laws.

[@Afrologist]

@Michael Bishop But they could only understand the intentions of individuals, not the whole race. It's like thinking all humans like to knit because they interrogated someone's grandmother.

[@atk05003]

@15:30 - I felt that the quote "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" from Foundation rang hollow. The man who said it was sitting on a stockpile of technology that made him (and the planet he governed) practically untouchable. Once their neighbors gained a little more of that tech, his world had to use different diplomatic channels.

[@billbadson7598]

100% agreed. The biggest man in the room, with the most weapons, has the privilege of being able to dictate terms without much pushback, because his dominance is assured. It's "speak softly and carry a big stick." But if there are four other big guys in the room, all with different opinions, and they all have big sticks, eventually, if a decision is going to be made, there is a high likelihood someone is going to have to start swinging those sticks.

[@bitharne]

Indeed; and it’s supreme incompetence to believe otherwise. Just like anyone who doesn’t think violent self defense is viable.

[@dirus3142]

The incompetent also use the taboo of violence as a weapon to be belligerent with out consequence.

[@anoninunen]

Violence is the lest refuge of the incompetent, but noone knows exactly what they or anyone else is doing.

[@bencox3641]

I read somewhere (I don't remember where I read it) that the line is supposed to mean that the competent either don't need to use violence or that they will realized that violence is the only answer and use it first. With only the incompetent using it last.

[@thepsion5]

"Technology Implies Belligerence" Sounds like the name of a Culture ROU

[@alexv3357]

It would also make a great metal album

[@ramonpizarro]

Excellent reference

[@Kalleosini]

Isaac always has something to say about these things that I would never have considered about the very possible reality of alien cultures and societies.

[@sirlight-ljij]

What I love the most about these series is the though process that is behind the discussion. In many other places where aliens are concerned I find implicit assumptions that are not addressed in any way; here in a truly scientific fashion many aspects of alien culture are though about, in a way that makes you think as well instead of giving clear answers

[@angryginger791]

Merch idea for you Isaac: A book (or even a poster) with all of the 1st Rules of Warfare. Maybe with a little elaboration blurb below each one.

[@EliasMheart]

Do you want to make CGP Grey loose his mind? Every rule is #1, so you need infinite paper for infinite rules... :0

[@jadeevetz9426]

I would buy this.

[@burbanpoison2494]

Möbius scroll- every entry is equally first.

[@justinalias7969]

Or create a book like the Ferengi’s rules of acquisition 🤣. I’d pay money for that 😂

[@MrMelonMonkey]

@@burbanpoison2494 absolutely underrated! xD

[@IAsimov]

"It's hard to envision a figure folks thought of as inspirational or heroic or a role model, whose personal philosophy was 'Nothing matters, nothing is worth doing, no behavior or state is worth aspiring to, aspiration itself is foolish'." You say that, but people unironically take Rick Sanchez from Rick & Morty as a role model. Not that he's any good. Seriously, though, I think this is also a part of a zeitgeist. The greeks themselves were fatalist as hell, and thought their fates were the playthings of the gods through their works. Even a lot of modern philosophers ended up famous due to reaching nihilistic conclusions. With all of that said, you bring up some really good points in the video. For good or ill, a civilization that is belligerent and desires to spread, either peacefully or otherwise, is one that gets to reach farther. Raw violence leads to destruction and an absolute loss of allies and civility, but raw peace can lead to defenselessness to those that choose to be armed. There's always some sort of morbid balance, I come to realize.

[@DocWolph]

"No, Human. We are not peaceful. We are, in fact, monstrously warlike. We are however extraordinarily efficient about it and have other interests beyond, as you put it, blowing you up."

[@AndrewJohnson-oy8oj]

This was Larry Niven's presentation of the Kzinti error. Humans weren't peaceful because it was their nature. Humans were peaceful because they were so good at war that they had to give it up to preserve themselves.

[@trelligan42]

Larry Niven's Kzinti race is a particular subgroup of this trope; Barbarians in Space. They were 'client' mercenaries of the Jotoki (weird 5-segment aliens) and overthrew them, stole their technology and enslaved them. The Green race of Barsoom are also examples of this, having a few remnants (blasters) of older technology - though they mostly don't go gallivanting around, instead being land raiders. Niven's view is that the Kzinti never went through building up technology themselves, so avoided the filters that would have reduced their belligerence.

[@MNewton]

The ol scream and leap tactic. If i recall, it is either out right stated or heavily implied that as they failed in the successive Man-Kzin wars all the most aggressive members of their groups were weeded out in a kind of rapid forced natural selection and Kzinti that understood restraint began to be more prevalent which ironically makes them far more dangerous.

[@boobah5643]

@@MNewton No, it's explicitly pointed out by Louis Wu in _Ringworld_ when they're talking about how the Puppeteers were breeding both humans and Kzinti to various ends.

[@Josiahiswatching]

16:37 now that’s a heck of a science-fiction concept: die a grizzly death on some far alien planet only to wake surrounded by the enemies you just killed slapping you on the back and buying you their equivalently a beer!

[@danieljryba]

Blowing up your planet, flinging bits into interstellar space, sounds like a legitimate source for the rocks carrying microbes in the panspermia hypothesis.

[@billpecoraro8421]

Further examples of beligerent aliens: literally every intelligent species in 40k.

[@scoutobrien3406]

The Tau are more internally insidious than especially belligerent... but that's the closest exception I can think of.

[@Pyxis10]

Of course the Mon-keigh would call us beligerant, while ignoring the irony of that statement. (Yeah I know hypocritical, but they're Eldar what do you expect?)

[@billpecoraro8421]

@@scoutobrien3406 They literally oppose the status quo of military supremacy in the galaxy as a fundamental tenant of their civilization. Per the use of the word "belligerent" in the video they fit the description. Belligerence is not necessarily an extreme prioritization of violence.

[@billpecoraro8421]

@@Pyxis10 This Mon-keigh couldn't hear their condescension over the galactic apocalypse caused by the fall of the Eldar from their golden age.

[@gortab]

Also the Orks.

[@miamijules2149]

Issac: I’m a bad-ass war veteran, a smart-ass physicist, an awesome elected representative, an amazing teacher, and and and! Slow down! THE REST OF US HAVE YET TO PUT OUR PANTS ON!! 🤣😅

[@bbbnuy3945]

Being a war veteran isnt admirable or anything to brag about. America destabilized 2 countries and millions of lives were lost… for what exactly? Money, oil, expansionism, etc. American and ISAF vets should be ashamed. They were duped into fighting useless wars, and dying and killing others for nothing.

[@AGenericFool]

​@@bbbnuy3945 Thanks for being like a lot of parts of the internet, taking any nuance out of a topic and reduce it into an blatant oversimplification. Not saying you're totally wrong or anything, just that this comment is very fitting for the current Zeitgeist of the internet.

[@bbbnuy3945]

@@AGenericFool lol somebody removed my comment. thats cowardly and pathetic. god forbid someone call out the gross veteran worship, war mongering, and american exceptionalism.

[@Tisrok]

​@@bbbnuy3945 We lost money, to the tune of trillions of dollars. We never got any oil out of Iraq or Afghanistan. Where were the tanker ships? Were we flying tanks of oil out on C130s? lmao. Unless you count protecting our Saudi allies and their oil fields from actual terrorists so they can continue to sell us oil. Expansion? What land did we claim? You should be ashamed of yourself for believing internet drivel. We had a good mission. Kill terrorists. Kill bad people who murder indiscriminately and use innocents for shields. Throw a violent oppressive regime out of power in Iraq, a regime that tortured/murdered/raped their own people and made any opposition permanently disappear. Stop the flow of opium from Afghanistan (the #1 producer on Earth, over 80% of the entire world's supply comes from there). Establish a democratic government with elections. Sure it all fell apart, but we had good intentions. There's nothing for veterans to be ashamed of. Politicians and leaders are the ones accountable for any wrong doing.

[@paperburn]

@@bbbnuy3945 You do you boo. I will do me..Semper Fi

[@Dingghis_Khaan]

I'm surprised that, when you brought up 40k, there was not at least a passing mention to the Orks, a species whose biology actually encourages violence, since they shed spores that rapidly grow into more Orks when blood is shed, grow stronger the more they fight, are biologically immortal, and are incredibly resilient. For an Ork, war is a sport in the truest fashion. It's not about seeing your enemy dead, it's about the fun of a good scrap. In fact, the longer you can put up that fight, the better the experience is for the Orks. Orks are just belligerent and drunken football hooligans looking for the next bar brawl to start for the hell of it, but on a galactic scale.

[@erikjrn4080]

Somehow, the fact that "in higher life forms [nature] often encourages heavy cooperation and with humans even cross-species cooperation like our relationship with any number of farm animals or pets" does nothing to calm my nerves...

[@NullHand]

To Serve Man... It's, It's... A Cookbook!

[@arendellecitizen208]

It might be nice to be kept as a pet to a more advanced specie if they have sufficient animal protection laws.

[@sidpomy]

This was one of the most well-thought out episodes you’ve done - and that’s saying a hell of a lot.

[@Artak091]

No matter where on earth you're from your recent ancestors very much agreed belligerence or violence was an acceptable answer. The idea of violence being bad is A very recent concept. Most European countries have been fighting each other for the past 2000 years. China has been fighting itself forever. Greece and all of its neighbors have been fighting each other forever. The last 100 years is shockingly peaceful post ww2.

[@joapercan6887]

I am going to mention that previous to ww1 there wasnt a war of great powers for almost 100 years. Meaning that the great empires of the world managed to stop each other from war after the napoleonic wars. While war was more normal then and those empires were still having some minor wars, the dramatic reduction in level of violence started at the very least in the last two hundred years. So even while nationalistic views of the time previous to the world wars did consider violence a acceptable answer to insults in a geopolitical level, and acceptable in a lot of moments at more normal scales, the concept of reduction of violence being a priority is older, even if by not much.

[@Artak091]

@@joapercan6887 that's fair. I may he biased reading about recent events in history such as animal extinction not really being a consideration in the recent past, people would just kill them for fun with no regulation. Also pre internet wae crime was a pretty popular past time. The mai Lai massacre for example was a minor incident at the time but if it happened today it'd be international news and there would be violent riots about it. Literally American presidents were made popular for their prejudices. Not to undermine Andrew jackson but he was elected president for his many victories over the natives as a soldier, could you imagine that being a thing today? But many of these thoughts could be western ideology. I'm not sure if many russians or Chinese people feel that violating human rights are incorrect. I Literally don't know so I don't say this insultingly but would the average Chinese citizen publicly complain if china violently invaded Taiwan? I actually don't think so.

[@joapercan6887]

@@Artak091 I don't know what to tell you. From my understanding, depends on context, but i don't think that inclusion of all the evils of colonization would be completely valid. For example, while the actions of europeans killing thousands in other continents would'nt matter to other europeans, relatively minor incidents in war between european countries would have a similar level of dislike that what we would see in modern times. After all, is not like the concept of reduction of violence started everywhere about everything at the same time, it's something that advances slowly but constant. And yes, probably the chinese would'nt care about Taiwan, at least a considerable percentage, we are talking about a country that constantly promotes nationalism after all.

[@dansmith1661]

Peaceful? The White countries are falling apart after hosting the third world, becoming the third world. Governments are cracking down on many sorts of free speech or movement over a flu that has yet to be isolated.

[@joapercan6887]

@@dansmith1661 I am sorry but, you believe that Africa is in better condition than the European Union, that has inside the fourth, seventh and nineth bigger economies of the world?

[@anarchyantz1564]

I am sorry to say that in 50 years I have never used Algebra as a "daily tool" since being forced to learn it so certainly not going to refresh it on Brilliant. When I asked my teacher at school when being taught it, in what day to day or average setting would I be in a position to actually use Algebra, they couldn't answer, and I got told to shut up.

[@michaela2634]

After everything I've read about the Fermi paradox and the innumerable great/lesser filters I think I can confidently say it is at least a _possibility_ that intelligent aliens don't exist. There might be trillions of planets but its entirely possible that the odds of intelligent life developing is 1/1,000,000,000,000,000.

[@pablobronstein1247]

I think it's more likely that we are "the ancient aliens". We did everything that fits the bill. Stacking rocks in a triangular shape? Check. Making crop circles? Check. Probing other life forms? Double check, we even probe each other.

[@mvalthegamer2450]

Well, do remember that we are in the first 1% of the Universe's Star making lifetime and the 1st 0.1% of the stellar age. We might as well be in the Precambrian era as far as interstellar life is concerned.

[@ethanieldude1]

@@mvalthegamer2450 Are we? I thought we were in the last 90% of the universes life span if entropy and heat death is to be believed. Stars are not created anywhere near as much as they were a few billion years ago

[@mvalthegamer2450]

@@ethanieldude1 Not even close. Isaac has already made a series of videos about this, look up Civilizations at the end of time series

[@EmeraldView]

Our existence suggests it isn't that rare. But it's still pretty rare. 99.999% of life in the universe is single cell and abundant.

[@greyneon]

As i just watched annoying aliens looking for another episode this popped up xD Thank you :)

[@danielpiechowicz2898]

"Violence is the Supreme authority in which all other authority is derived" Starship Troopers.

[@luska5522]

SERVICE GARANTEES CITZENSHIP

[@Arkantos117]

Which is why governments love to create a monopoly on violence.

[@kushluk777]

@@Arkantos117 Governments create a monopoly on violence to defend the wealth of the rich from the needs of the poor, force is used to maintain and enhance this contradiction.

[@Arkantos117]

@@kushluk777 That wouldn't explain removing the right to defend yourself with violence.

[@RavemastaJ]

@@Arkantos117 It is why government are REQUIRED to create a monopoly on violence. Can't really be the 'one true authority' if you let your citizens ignore your edicts or make their own rules. Although, the recent creation of 'anarcho-tyranny' is interesting (that is, when citizens break your laws to achieve an end you agree with, you do not prosecute, but when they break laws to do something you disagree with, you throw the book and all of your manpower at them).

[@BigZebraCom]

I was going to 'take care' of all those belligerent aliens--but then things got really crazy at work.

[@jockeb2651]

YES! Gonna play some galactic civ III and listen to this. Love Thursdays

[@HelloFellowHooman]

Terra Invicta is a promising new game in development

[@jockeb2651]

@@HelloFellowHooman Looks nice! Looking forward to that now

[@ryans5707]

Stellaris bro

[@jamescurrie01]

Happy Arthurs day :)

[@janisleimanis7080]

What if Oumuamua was ork rok ship. Made to conquer earth. It failed as many things orks cobble together from scrap, and it was painted red because red goes faster.

[@Pyxis10]

HOO SAIS WE FAYLD HYOOMIE!!! I'S KRUMP YA'S GOOD FOR DAT ONE!!!!

[@0neIntangible]

always loving the graphics along with the storylines

[@matthewc9806]

10:18 I agree, also if they were truly peaceful they wouldn't look down on anyone, since looking down on others is itself a form of hostility

[@calebkirschbaum8158]

Depending on the society, looking down on someone could be your culture's way of trying to improve them. For example, in Japan, if you start getting a bit too fat, most people will start commenting on it and trying to push you to lose weight. Do that for every aspect of one's life, and you could definitely have a society where looking down on someone is the right thing to do.

[@dff1286]

The snacks actually preceded the episode. I was sitting down with a snack and thought SFIA would be a great accompaniment.

[@snowman8241]

Like Mr Arthur, I have studied physics. I have in fact a BS in Astronomy, and a MS in Computer Science. I am very interested in Science Fiction as well, and am an older guy. So, I have by now had decades to contemplate belligerent aliens and interstellar war and interstellar travel from a physics perspective. I have also studied economics but as a hobby, and not at any university. I feel that what has been missing from the equation is that (interstellar travel = big $$$). An interstellar craft will very likely cost as much to produce as all the carrier groups fielded by USA today, and very possibly more than that. Battleships become too expensive to risk in war before the second world war, and I do not believe that loosing a super-carrier would be popular today. They are assets who are very expensive and time consuming to replace. I expect that interstellar crafts will be in the same category. After all, we do not have any clues to faster then light travel. So interstellar an journey will be very time consuming as well. Hence, very slow return on interest. I therefore suggest that interstellar crafts might be regarded as a very capital asset, and nothing to expose to anything as precarious as warfare. Any thoughts?

[@krispalermo8133]

Then the debate that there is enough gold floating in space a single shipment will reduce gold from $3,000 per oz to $50 per kg. My two RPG shop over the years had many debates on .. break away civilizations. Which provoke, .. a.) " If we can't leave neither can you !" b.)" Well if you don't like American, then leave and go live somewhere else. !" c.) " We left centuries ago, and your government is now trying to collect .. back taxes ?"

[@snowman8241]

@@krispalermo8133 "If we can't leave neither can you." I do not claim that it is impossible to leave the solar system, just difficult. FTL travel requires new physics, that we don't have at the moment, and starting interstellar travel with an FTL drive would be like going from hollowed out oak log boats directly to the cruise ships of today with no steps in between. I just believe that a more likely scenario would be: interplanetary travel and colonization for 100-200 years, then slower then light interstellar travel for maybe 500 to 1000 year with speeds increasing from 10% of light speed to maybe 50-75%, and FTL technology first after that time and technological development. I also expect FTL to involve quiet a lot of energy, like a significant fraction of the output of the sun. If FTL took less energy than that, we should probably have some clues on how to do it by now.

[@krispalermo8133]

@@snowman8241 I like your reply and view regarding space travel. But my statement of, " If we can't leave neither can you." I should have added more detail. It was in regards to dealing with people who have no drive or are cowards that refuse to improve their own lives, and to feel better about their own cowardness they don't want you to do better yourself. I came from more or less a strong religious/ spiritual background. We have a very low tolerance for lairs and Bearing False Witness. Along with 17 years ago my small home town had to deal with cops from Chicago trained to point drawn firearms at people and just handcuff them without given reason other than .. running ID checks .. on them. Some people have been so socially condition not to question poor law enforcement behavior. They can't question or resist it, and neither should you. Most people are so dim witted they can't grasp World of Warcraft was base off of D&D and the HeMan cartoon was Conan with rayguns. I grew up table top wargaming and working word math problems for fun. So I'm not afraid of .. math. Due to social state politics and tax breaks for hiring non locals with housing vouchers. My home town was flooded with non natives that couldn't see or refuse to understand things outside of their old neighborhood echo chambers. Then we still have a bit of the old guard in their fifties still buying into the bull zhit from the " Satanic Panic," that dungeon & dragons is bad and most of those fools hate math & science classes. So if you were in your early thirties and want to cause rumors, get called racist, or any number of bull zhit problems. Just walk up to any of the older guys at the factory and ask them about the science behind the machines at the plant. Or WW II aircraft along with space flight to the Moons of Jupiter. I am barely smart enough to just pass a junior college level math class. What pizzes off people is that I show how to work out space travel with junior high school level math. They were never raised or taught to .. think .. agiven way. Over all if you are an American, I hope you have a Happy Thanksgiven this week.

[@snowman8241]

@@krispalermo8133 Sorry about the misunderstanding. My original comment and my reply was based on my expectation that interstellar warfare will be regarded as too expensive, at least for any foreseeable future and maybe forever. But I agree with you that thinking is not fashionable in our time, and has not been that for a long time. And no, I don't live in USA. I live on the Scandinavian peninsula and my native tongue is a Scandinavian language. Hence my username, I live in an area close to the arctic circle. Snow is common every winter, and a green Christmas is just about unheard of.

[@krispalermo8133]

@@snowman8241 Well, inregards to space warfare. The base travel speeds to reach orbit then to fly to the moon are traveling 3x fast than our current aircraft anti-tank ammo. So until we create a long list of deflector shield generators and structural integerity fields to hold the craft together under high speeds. Our current planetary commerce is measure in two to five week shipping delays and not measure in months let alone in years. Odd enough our government militaries best armor tanks and warships are tin foil paper boats without any radiation shielding. And anything from Star Wars/ Star Trek are just word math exercises. Thank you for your replies and I hope you have a good up coming holidays.

[@anxez]

The delayed gratification study is actually pretty suspect last I heard. Turns out they neglected socioeconomic status as a potential explanation and it predicted the outcome with similar probability.

[@sidpomy]

I don’t think we need a scientist or study to evaluate an obvious truth. The foresight to sacrifice some of today for tomorrow is an encapsulation of why humans aren’t still living in caves.

[@bbbnuy3945]

Absolutely socioeconomic status plays a major part. I found it supremely odd that “Childhood Adversity” was on that list.. and would that would think it to actually be be a barrier of success.

[@anxez]

@@sidpomy Sometimes "obvious truths" are actually just confirmation bias. Delaying gratification is not why we got out of caves at all, that's just a narative with no factual basis in history.

[@sidpomy]

@@anxez I’ll never understand people’s desire to be willfully ignorant. Agriculture itself is rooted in delayed gratification. The reason we wait for a trial by jury instead of rushing to revenge. Investing in our children. Pursuing an education that costs decades of time and effort before benefiting monetarily. I’m not saying delayed gratification is the only factor - but it is quite obviously an essential one. Anyone wanting to obfuscate that with some class-based argument is nothing more than a fool. And to be even more clear as I know how this will be taken, class is a huge factor in success as well, maybe the most important one. But that doesn’t invalidate the behaviors that created the success rich elite leech off of. And attacking or undermining such behaviors is the wrong way to address any societal problems you have with an intractable elite class.

[@anxez]

@@sidpomy Agriculture is actually the thing I was referring to not being rooted in delayed gratification. That's simply a narrative. What it initially came from was overcollection. It was not food insecure people choosing to starve a little to grow food, it was actually happy and healthy people putting away their extra. And the same can be said of those kids: It's not that delayed gratification was some genetic edge that their parents had, its that being comfortable gave them the opportunity to consider the future. Even education and trials are only things that well off societies can participate in. The ability to delay gratification is enabled by prior comfort. And thus your simple 'common sense' analysis turned cause and effect on their head and got them completely backwards.

[@spaghetti8056]

Isaac has given me so many inspiration ideas, it’s truly amazing. I’ve never written so many galactic war crimes before!

[@empireempire3545]

Eh, but there are so many different Klingons shown in Star Trek. Scientists, cooks, monks and so on and so on. They all seem more direct and aggressive from a human standpoint, but this is just a biological difference between races. They enjoy life much more openly, passionately and a bit animalistically than humans do. The 'proud warrior race' trope is not as simplistic in their case as it is in other examples.

[@mattjk5299]

Plus, my understanding is that the Klingons that are seen most readily are the human equivalent of recon military vessels, special forces and border patrols. I can't imagine that doesn't bias the kinds of people who are encountered

[@cartermclaughlin2908]

Worf's arc made it pretty clear that the warrior image was propaganda for the young, stupid and forigners. In the time of TNG Klingon culture was much more like the mordern American oligarchy riddled with the corruption of cowards, using a mask of violence in order to manufacture consent.

[@mattjk5299]

@@cartermclaughlin2908 Consider how the image of the US military is presented and manipulated for people living in rural Afghanistan or Iraq. Or even China and Russia, as rivals. Both by friend and foe the image of a nation is often closer to a travel brochure or scathing criticism than a perfectly even handed assessment.

[@empireempire3545]

@@cartermclaughlin2908 I wouldnt go that far - if anything, i would compare Klingons to various periods of Japan

[@laikkelynnehoard4972]

@@mattjk5299 Also, soldiers in our own societies generally like to brag a bit and present strength whenever possible. Particularly when in the presence of a potential threat, which every alien species must be considered until evidence says otherwise. The humans who first met the Klingons had absolutely no idea of their history. They had previously overthrown and exterminated an alien race that had invaded and conquered them centuries before, and thus had no trust of aliens. They had resolved to never again be subjugated by aliens, and would conquer them first if necessary to protect the Klingon race and eventually empire. If you're honest about our own species, can you really blame them for treating humans as dangerous and potentially a threat to contend with?

[@CoyotesOwn]

My favorite twist of the Proud Warrior Race guy is the Luxans and Sebacean of Farscape. The Luxan is your typical Proud Warrior Race. Quick to pick a fight, code of honor, signature weapon (a gun sword), Hyperrage. And they... get easily beat Sebacean, roughly human in their physical capabilities (modified to stronger, faster, thought, etc. but much less resistant against heat. Which come to think of it kills one of out evolutionary edges), but who are working as soldiers, so with discipline and adherence to order rather than glory-seeking.

[@puppy6646]

RIP Dislike counter for this channel 11/18/2021. I would never dislike Isaac, but I feel silenced knowing I no longer am able to. Google was right to remove their commitment to not be evil.

[@davidhoracek6758]

Isaac, I wonder if you have views about Robin Hanson's recent framework of grabby aliens. He's the economist who came up with the concept of the great filter. I'm pretty sure you know enough calculus and Bayesian probability to be able to understand it, and I would really value your own take on the topic. A good starting point would be the two most recent videos on Rational Animations channel, which do a remarkably effective job in explaining the framework through cartoons.

[@rockyfalldownstairs]

Ah great, the laser animation at 10:00 is directly focused on my house.

[@RyanBroadhurst26]

You should consider uploading these as podcasts. They would be perfect in that format.

[@zachdavis8251]

I saw this and immediately thought of Morbo saying “belligerent and numerous.”

[@SeraSmiles]

Fun little biology side note; belligerent behavior among a species is significantly more common among large herbivores than large carnivores on earth. This implies that a species of "hippie aliens" would be more likely to be hypercarnivores than vegetarians

[@NullHand]

Would this be mostly males during rut, must, etc? The most consistantly belligerent creature in my woods... Is the Owl.

[@kskaiseraaron]

When you and John Michael Goodier release content at the same time it is a good day.

[@willowdove6703]

To your point about birth rates- K-selection seems like a much better recipe for cultivating intelligent life as it basically mandates parental care and therefore teaching/cultural transmission to the children. You can get smart species that fall closer to r-selection like octopi but they’re very solo animals, unlikely to maintain social groups and form a civilization, which is how you get advancing technology.

[@davidbolton8282]

I love these episodes. I keep going back to listen to them multiple times.

[@timezone5259]

Alternate Title: Fanatic Militarist Xenophobic Aliens ~Stellaris

[@PerfectAlibi1]

Yautja - Predator series.

[@willyreeves319]

high birth rate, short growth to maturity time, and high intelligence - the Pacific giant octopus. if they ever evolve to live their adult life on land they could develop technology and perhaps live long enough to have multiple breeding cycles (or after breeding they move to a protector status of the species or just their clan)

[@dforrest4503]

Such short lifetimes though! I wonder if research has been done on why their life cycle is so short

[@stealthfinger]

I do chuckle every time he says something is the first rule of warfare lol

[@luigikinesis5276]

Never before did I think I'd say, "Dang, that's a short one," to a 28 minute video.

[@petersmythe6462]

"Proud warrior races" would probably have some sort of duellist's code of honor or whatever and "nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" almost certainly is bad form.

[@kludgedude]

To believe things “matter” against all the evidence to the contrary would be a extremely valuable technology.

[@cozmothemagician7243]

One thing not mentioned here is the hive from the Ender's Game series. The 'queen' did not even realize she was killing humans because she did not conceive of individual life.

[@robertcorbell1006]

The multiclassing thing is the case whenever better writers (such as Manny Coto and completely unlike that hack Bryan Fuller) handled the Klingons. Worf's grandfather (also named Worf and played by the same actor in slightly different makeup) was a colonel in the ground forces and also a defense lawyer for high-level trials who had studied law. Others were engineers, medics, farmers, and blacksmiths with it being repeated in semi-canonical lore that their society held that each cog in the machine is needed for conquest. Without engineers and scientists, there would be no spaceships or disrupters. Without blacksmiths, there would be no farming implements or bladed weapons. Without farmers, there would be no food to feed the people and by extension the armies/space navies. Without doctors and medics, people would die from the littlest scratch and there would be nobody after a while to fight. Without teachers and bards, history and tactics would be lost. Without lawyers and judges, the government would fall apart. Of course, the Klingons could just be a tiny part of their vast empire and the loads of alien races they rule over (as seen in Star Trek VI on Rura Penthe) act as a slave caste to support the much smaller number of warriors and allow them to focus mainly on war, similar to Sparta. It's a shame we never see them (the Balduk are supposed to be honorary Klingons much like the more warlike tribes of Neural III and serve as shock troops in their space marines along with Morn's race, the Lurians). In Enterprise, we learn the high-ranking warriors are merely a vocal minority that represents what other races wrongly think the Klingons are. In reality, most are stuck on their homeworld or colonies doing menial jobs and wishing the Federation could see them for something more.

[@jahnoi12o]

The Sayain’s from dragon ball series are based on the Klingon mixed with Sun Wukong from journey to the west.

[@israf3642]

9:54 What did Florida Man do to the aliens to deserve that?

[@mill2712]

I don't know, but considering it was Florida man, it wouldn't be hard to figure out it was something stupid.

[@NullHand]

The aliens were probably crocodylomorphs.

[@orbismworldbuilding8428]

So the klingons would need to breed a lot, and mature quickly, and have large litters with really good parental care

[@PureMagma]

I'm grateful for your take on this topic!

[@shlomomarkman6374]

Getting a very aggressive and belligerent civilization organically might be hard but who said it should develop organically. It can be given/stumble upon/steal the required tech without advancing their society. It's the equivalent of high aggression tribal societies here accessing assault rifles when their own societal level is very far from developping or even producing them on their own. Result is often messy and examples are the barbarian invasions at antiquity- Germanics got access to high grade iron weapons, Mongol invasions- Mongols getting Chinese siege tech and modern tribal wars - tribal societies being given modern weaponry for various reasons. Fictional examples also abound like Mass Effect and Star Wars humanity- stumbling upon FTL technology

[@michaelfawaz6483]

Aliens first contact with humans. Aliens: we like war! Humanity: here we go boys time to show them we haven’t known peace since coming into existence.

[@r0cketplumber]

I used to say that I served a two year sentence in the New York City public school system, where I never got into any more than five fights in one day (but that one was a doozy). "I don't like violence, but I'm good at it," might be the most likely form of belligerent alien we encounter- and let's be thankful for that.

[@GargamelGold]

Isaac Arthur, You can actually make the case that by the Star Trek future standards, humans are actually generally speaking less aggressive and belligerent than the Klingons. The aliens won’t necessarily have to be more belligerent than we are now. They could technically just be more belligerent than us when we encounter them. Perhaps by that time, humans are significantly less belligerent as a species

[@willywonka4340]

If it weren't for belligerent alien themes in most sci-fi stories, the genre wouldn't have been popular as it is today.🤷‍♂️

[@pll3827]

Terra Invicta!

[@AleksandrPodyachev]

Would it make sense to have a segment of a society that is specialized in warfare and is raised from birth to be a soldier and remains one until they die?

[@planetarytennis8463]

Yes though it implies alot of combat, though well predicted combat because this implies they don't generally need to pull new troops. It also means the society views freedom differently then us.

[@planetarytennis8463]

@Lawofimprobability maybe for a civilization that can put people on ice, technology or biology. You have the warrior cast sleeping except for training and battles.

[@virutech32]

only if you have very little technology as high technology implies an ease of quickly training up soldiers & lesser relevance of non-autonomous/semiautonomous fighting forces.

[@NullHand]

I think an advanced civ would just switch on the hegemonizing Von Neumann swarm. All your enemies are now easily recyclable paperclips....

[@Pcr12]

On the part about looking down on previous cultures and civilizations: I'm pretty sure that is something that a good number of people do today. A bit on philosophy top: I wouldn't say not believing in free will necessitates a belief that everything is pointless and there is no purpose in doing anything.

[@egoalter1276]

Humans are amazingly.good at holdimg.mutually.incompatible beliefs, I do agree.

[@Bob-lr2xp]

The part about needing to control their violence reminds me of this quote from Starship Troopers: "If you wanted to teach a baby a lesson, would you cuts its head off? Of course not. You'd paddle it. There can be circumstances when it's just as foolish to hit an enemy with an H-Bomb as it would be to spank a baby with an ax. War is not violence and killing, pure and simple; war is controlled violence, for a purpose. The purpose of war is to support your government's decisions by force. The purpose is never to kill the enemy just to be killing him . . . but to make him do what you want him to do. Not killing . . . but controlled and purposeful violence. But it's not your business or mine to decide the purpose of the control. It's never a soldier's business to decide when or where or how--or why--he fights; that belongs to the statesmen and the generals. The statesmen decide why and how much; the generals take it from there and tell us where and when and how. We supply the violence; other people--"older and wiser heads," as they say--supply the control. Which is as it should be."

[@alexsamurai1230]

On the last paragraph I'd add the qualifier that provided the orders don't break a recognised law of warfare they should be followed. I think that if you acquiesce to (for example) killing children or participating in a genocide, even if following orders, you are morally culpable.

[@egoalter1276]

As said by a rating on a coast guard cutter... War is not something that any entity can really control in a meaningful sense, this has been proven time and again.

[@robertraine6045]

I always remember the sentinel island people cut off from the out side world seen as violent and savage and wonder if that's how they view us and that's why they stay away

[@sulljoh1]

Evolutionary biologists also tend to reject the idea of "higher" and "lower" life

[@douglasphillips5870]

I imagine Carl Sagan's perspective would result in something like the Vulcans from Star Trek. They were an aggressive species that discovered aggressiveness had limitations and built a philosophy to manage their self destructive tendencies.

[@pizzapicante27]

Frankly I personally think that the historians approach should be based more on profit than anything, we dont go around invading "primitive" human groups in isolated Pacific islands, simply because there is nothing to gain from it, sure the odd adventurer might ignore the "dont land here, they will kill you" signs we put over but there is really no incentive to go an invade or integrate these people into any particualr society. Put that into contrast with European colonialism, were invading and establishing colonies was not only profitable but an economic and industrial necessity to obtain resources and trade goods. Assuming no ethical, moral, historical or legal reasons, I cannot fathom a Class 1 or 2 civilization needing or being interested in anything from modern-day Earth, we are some kind of "primitive" Pacific little island in the middle of nowhere who has no gold or oil that would interest a superior power.

[@kevincrady2831]

They'd just turn up, gobble up the rest of the Solar System where all the resources are, and say, "Whaddaya gonna do about it, Earthbound monkeys?" :)

[@luvr381]

Moties are some of the scariest aliens. Also, I wonder if low orbit satellite debris will turn out to be a great filter.

[@AndrewJohnson-oy8oj]

Agreed about the Moties.

[@sizanogreen9900]

"CheerBright" should also be a genre designation.

[@commiedeer]

Noble Bright is a genre designation, just not a popular one in today's obsession with gloom, doom, and nihilism

[@sizanogreen9900]

@@commiedeer in movies yes, but reading manga's and online novels I have encountered tons of stuff fitting for this designation. And it is as bad as it sounds.

[@EliasMheart]

10:00 I believe that the Aboriginies (spelling :$?) were said to (have) be(en) very peaceful. Just as a counter example

[@TheGalacticCrusader]

I'm truly grateful for your videos! Hoping to buy SFIA swag soon!

[@redshift1976]

Just because humans are hyper aggressive towards there own species, as well as other species, does mean alien species would be too. Perhaps a species from another plant could be genetically/biologically prevented from committing violence against themselves? Even if there were no genetic aversion to intra species violence, there could be sociological versions as well. Perhaps a species could even genetically or chemically engineer non-aggression towards their own kind?

[@AlucardNoir]

Ah, topology.... ... the best reason to punch a mathematician in the face.

[@Pax.Britannica]

Holy shh-t, KZbin has been burying your videos as of late. I haven't be suggested a video of yours in well over a year. That said, good to finally get one.

[@evensgrey]

The Amish don't just come from a region plagued by war. They are the descendants of one faction in a schism over using violence to achieve political goals. The ancestors of the Amish took the view that violence was not an acceptable way to achieve their goals. The other side of the schism started a major peasant uprising which failed, leading to them being wiped out. (Essentially, the ancestors of the Amish had it thoroughly demonstrated that while they might not be entirely right, the other faction was definitely wrong.)

[@PaulZyCZ]

That note about cultural habits of the "Roving merchants on the outskirts" makes me think about Belters in Expanse.

[@larryc835]

Magnificent archive. Great work Arthur.

[@ryanhampson673]

The series Babylon 5 had a war that started between humans and a alien race….On first contact the alien ship armed its weapons ( in the aliens culture this was seen as a sign of respect and wasn’t meant to be threatening) The humans saw the weapons arming and took it as a threat and fired first, thus starting a war.

[@aleisterlavey9716]

I get the feeling that no matter how much life there is, it always will be rare in the universe...

[@dougg1075]

My wife ( me too) is grossed out by roaches, mice and the like, aliens are liable to be so taken aback by our appearance and actions , that mingling with their society may be impossible. They may find some among their population that can stomach us. The wife usually flees the roach and calls me in for the kill . We are like gods in comparison to roaches

[@virutech32]

roaches are not generally intelligent though. they can't make technology & so it's not a vary good comparison

[@Cardan011]

And yet when we are long gone roaches will still be roaching

[@dougg1075]

@@Cardan011 true dat

[@kevincrady2831]

@@Cardan011 And their descendants will build spaceships and go gross out the Universe. :0

[@ParallelUniversity]

What about AI machine civilizations? If some aliens managed to create self sustaining AI travelers which are capable of reprogramming themselves to adjust to problems they encounter, all bets are off. I feel like the first aliens we will encounter will not be biological at all, which would be very disappointing and frightening at the same time. Alien machine groups sent to terraform and develop planets to further their expansion would be devastating.

[@patrickkenyon2326]

Was it Fred Saberhagen? Berserkers. AI drones, exploring the galaxy. And exterminating all threats.

[@NullHand]

I think if the speed of light/causality does prove to be an unbreakable limit, then civilizations would only send out crippled AI with very limited ability to adapt, mutate, or otherwise technologically threaten to replace the source civ/AI. That could explain the kinetically superior, but daftly incommunicative behavior reported of things like the "tic tac”.

[@ParallelUniversity]

@@NullHand Just because it would be wise to send out crippled AI like that doesn't mean there isn't some civilization out there with the audacity to send out a group that can do more. If over millions of years, an AI group has been travelling, setting up factories, mining and refining resources to create more AI, and continuing the cycle, parts of the Universe might be teeming with this civilization's AI. Maybe not in our galaxy, but somewhere. If you can build a robot that is capable of creating not just a duplicate of itself, but a robot that is better than itself in every way, then over millions of years there could be AI groups whose parents and grandparents are other AI, etc. What might eventually reach us could be so far removed from the original alien-made device that it is foreign even to them. Though their own civilization may long be extinct by that time, the AI would remain. The initial programming for expansion would have to be the only thing that needs to remain uncorrupted from generation to generation.

[@KarlRosner]

Is there a compilation of first rules of warfare some place? I'd love a list to reference when writing as a inside joke.

[@JerryWilliam63]

1st rule of warfare... Yep, here we go again! Never gets old.

[@adamwu4565]

The First Rule of Warfare: Every Rule of Warfare is the First.

[@caslaBBalsac]

Honestly, I don't like the idea of there being ONE solution to the Fermi Paradox. The likely answer is actually a mix of various existing ones, and some not largely thought of yet. Isolationist Aliens for instance, is unlikely universal, but would make the occasional race harder to find.

[@virutech32]

so the Filters solution

[@caslaBBalsac]

@@virutech32 Is that what my idea is called? When you combine several solutions, it's the filters solution? Or did I misunderstand that?

[@kevincrady2831]

Thus the "one answer" would be: the dice are loaded very heavily against the idea of a spreading interstellar civilization, for all these reasons...

[@caslaBBalsac]

@@kevincrady2831 The light barrier being unbreakable would do that by itself.

[@svsguru2000]

I wouldn't exactly call humanity's relationship with farm animals "interspecies cooperation". Humans today may (mostly) recoil in horror from the notion of slavery and genocide, but then I can never forget the image of a conveyor belt ferrying freshly hatched male chickens to an industrial meat grinder. Space faring civilisations may have toned down their belligerence targeted at each other, but that is by no means a guarantee, or even an indicator, that they would apply this to other alien races, especially if they are physically very different. We may treat humanoid aliens like Vulcans or Klingons kindly, but would we do that with aliens that look like spiky, slimy spiders? I very much doubt it.

[@luska5522]

I FIND THE IDEA OF A INTELIGENT BUG OFFENSIVE

[@virutech32]

well cooperation doesn't need to be built on mutual compassion only the mutual understanding that if you try to smush them they & their allies are gunna show up with lasers, railguns, & RKM's with a great justification for all the other less bigoted aliens to stay out of the conflict as we smushed first unprovoked

[@rahimoneill7294]

The first rule of warfare is to watch every new Isaac Arthur episode within minutes of it being posted...

[@ProperLogicalDebate]

20:00 I suspect that the more offspring parents have, the lower that species is on the Food Chain.

[@NullHand]

R vs K reproductive strategies do seem to trend that way. Except for the octopus. That one is just weird.

[@Roguescienceguy]

Well octopi have a very short life and can hardly be called stupid. Hell, I would even say that the average octopus is far smarter than a large percentae of humanity. I mean, really, it's the sole reason why I don't believe in democracy.

[@robertcorbell1006]

10:50 Also, where is that from? Those flying ray creatures are amazing.

[@kevincrady2831]

I'm guessing it's stock footage like a lot of the B-roll Isaac uses. I love the ray creatures too. :)

[@mikeellery3336]

Considering that the planet on which a species evolved would probably leave each species with differing requirements and factoring the unimaginable size of the universe, what would be the driving factor fir belligerence or violent aggressiveness ? If you can travel the stars does it make sense to make war for one star system when it would be far easier to go on to the next?

[@virutech32]

well first off everyone has the same requirements: mass-energy. regardless of biology & environmental preferences everyone needs matter to build stuff & energy to run stuff. second, interstellar travel is very expensive, especially for near-baselines that need to go fast, weigh a lot, & have lots of even heavier needs or wants. even if it was cheap this would be like saying wars shouldn't happen because there's so much land. there has always been more land than humans could effectively use & that never stopped anyone from going to war over their homes or the homes of others.

[@iichthus5760]

Travel between solar systems and galaxies may, in fact, be impossible… or the cost for doing so may be so high as to make it implausible and undesirable. So the Fermi paradox may be no paradox at all. Better for us to adopt the idea that no one is coming and sink or swim it’s up to us. The sooner we finally figure out that there is only one race - the human race that we need to worry about, the better off we’ll be.

[@MrKIMBO345]

If we are talking about the history and civilization, we are more peaceful compared to the past because of the free trade, open democracy, international organization and advanced technology. However, if we are having problem with lack of the resources for the basic needs, we are violence in example of the need of oil for the Imperial Japan before the World War 2. Also, the ideology( either religion or politics) make the alien aggressive like the Convent in the Halo universe.

[@OpreanMircea]

another great episode

[@getnohappy]

Is there a memetics/ culture solution (one of the great filters maybe)? Take the Klingons, Enterprise implied that war/honour wasn't always part of Klingon culture, but an aspect that grew. So, potentially the meme solution is that, when a species develops God-like technology, at some point it's inevitable the culture will produce a belligerent phase and wipe itself out: only takes one bad set of leaders at exactly the wrong time with the wrong zeitgeist to have an apocalyptic war even if "society" has been pacifist for a 1000 years? [Also, the Krogan from Mass Effect seemed a perfect example for around 18-20mins]

[@ProperLogicalDebate]

21:33 In the miniseries when the other tribe formed up in the approved manner but Shaka Zulu attacked with his warriors and their short spears and his tactics wiped them out.

[@AEB1066]

Or how the Aztecs who turned up with the Emperor to meet with the Spanish came unpreparef because no one attacked under those conditions in their culture - the Spanish attacked and took the Emperor hostage.

[@sarcasmo57]

Aliens are outside the parameters of our simulation.

[@AppNasty]

On topic u mentioned about how people wont typically follow someone who encourages u to not become great or focus on goals etc. Ex Jehovahs Witness here. They definitely do this. You shouldn't become a famous rock star because theres no reason. God will wipe this system clean etc. Dont do anything. Just work a simple job and preach. One of my friends who is a witness still had to hide the fact he took his son to a KoRn concert. It's crazy.

[@murderedcarrot9684]

I argue though, like the Tibet people a species that is intelligent can go from warlike too a less destructive form of like quickly.

[@anathardayaldar]

Since we are all survivors of biological evolution from our homeworlds, I expect ETs to have an official policy on contact with humans which sound beautiful and enlightened, but are then grossly ignored by their poachers, corporations and adolescents.

[@krispalermo8133]

The movie " Predators," in the comics and novels, the one's that hunt humans for skull sport trophies are .. poachers .. are social/ political renegades.

[@petersmythe6462]

Re: humanity's past being particularly violent? I would tend to argue that direct violence is actually somewhat rare. During the 20th century, we have two major wars and many other wars. We'll call that 100M for WW2, 50M deaths for WW1, and 50M deaths for all the rest combined (Korea and Indochina and such were brutal conflicts with horrifying fatality rates, probably as bad as either world war, but the fighting was geographically limited). All these numbers are overestimates. But let's be generous and add 100 million additional deaths due to not having enough government (Civilian murder, etc), and 100 million additional deaths due to having too much government (Genocide, etc). So 400 million violent deaths in the 20th century as our upper bound. Sounds like a lot? Right? In an absolute sense it definitely is. But in a relative sense, the 20th century had a total of 5.5 billion deaths, and 9.8 billion births. That is, at maximum, all that war, genocide, and murder represents just 7% of the total 20th century death toll. The human population also tripled during that time. A period of just 3.3 generations, so clearly direct violence isn't becoming a direct limiting factor on carrying capacity. Now, let's compare, mountain lions in California: Number one cause of death is cars. Cars are scary two ton metal squishers that move too fast to run away from. Number two? OTHER MOUNTAIN LIONS! That is, of all the causes of death that aren't directly due to humans, THEY are their own worst enemy. Sometimes in particularly unlucky cases a mutual kill is achieved. Around 50% of the fatalities not directly attributable to humans are caused by other mountain lions. Now, I've been emphasizing direct violence a lot here because there's plenty of people who die because someone uses violence to get into a position of power (or stay in one, or create one, there's no state structure without violence) and then implement policies that cause many many many indirect fatalities. These could be things like choosing whether to require participate filters on polluting factory and powerplant exhausts, whether to provide healthcare to all citizens, or whether to use the power of the state to compel people to not spread a deadly disease. There is often a motive to exploit the public or represent those who do, in ways that can lead to them dying. In other words, far more people are probably in some fashion or other "worked to death" or "killed by neglect" than shot. Even in rich countries this is probably true, seeing as things like horrifying rates of drug overdose and abuse are going to likely be some kind of mix of those effects. That is, people kill people to get into power, and they often kill far more people in far less direct ways while exploiting that position of power for the benefitting of some ruling class.

[@halilzelenka5813]

From a human-centric perspective, we would want to know if the aliens we meet are warlike, if their default method of dealing with less advanced societies is to exterminate them. Seems like a waste. Hopefully they’re more like the aliens in the Rama series. Interested in learning about the life in the galaxy. I imagine that sapient beings would be especially interesting, even to beings who are so ancient and advanced that their technology would appear like magic to us.

[@petersmythe6462]

So, one question here: if you did have a belligerent planet, I think you'd probably have almost constant warfare. But not constant warfare of every faction against every other. As such, questions like "is this defensible?" and "can I launch a counterattack from here?" would come up as the number one rule of -warfare- city planning. Nobody would, after the development of long range bombers in the first place, spend the intervening decades trying to make their urban cores MORE compact, MORE flammable, and LESS bunkerized. Probably the opposite. This means two things: 1. Whatever method of transport they use, it will have access to a smaller population of laborers within the immediate vicinity of any nuclear program or other military facility. 2. Their society won't be this elegant practically Utopian version of an economy we have today. It'll be a sword that sometimes works like a plowshare if you really need it to. Anyone who does beat their swords into plowshares will likely be punished quite hard. Enough that you'd lose all of the gain in efficiency from being bombed back to the stone age. It'll be designed from the outset to take a nuke or 20000 and keep going. And it'll be designed to make sure anyone out there making nukes pays for it before they have more than you do. That means the doctrine of minimal force is in order. So do the minimal necessary military action. Disrupt nuclear production and reactor sites. 3. The low efficiency of bunkerized production means nuclear wars are likely a continuous battle of small scale production. All that much force concentration isn't really possible under these conditions because the troops just get nuked. So it's likely that you have an extremely bunkerized world, nothing resembling nuclear winter can ever occur, and nuclear production will never reach assembly line levels because that will be alarming to someone who can nuke your nukeplants. The fact that nukes are not good at destroying rural areas also means that a dispersed population is an alive population.

[@lordzodiak1575]

I like carl sagan but his thoughts on this is nothing more than pie in the sky dreaming