ISO on Sony cameras is often INCREDIBLY misunderstood

[@DanFox]

Make sure to check out the chapter markers if you need to skip back to a section or if you already know some of this stuff!

[@ToldbyNick]

Listen man, the information you display here for us to take in, the amount of work it must have taken for you to make it all understandable and relatively concise, the consideration for both the technical and not-so-technical folks - well freakin’ done 👏. Absolutely crushed it man, I can’t commend you more for this! As an engineer turned photographer/videographer, I GREATLY appreciated this video and found it incredibly engaging, seriously helpful, and endlessly interesting.

[@DanFox]

Oh, wow. I appreciate the kind words, man! This video turned into so much work over a few months that I almost gave up on it, but definitely glad that I released it into the wild and that it seems to be helping folks!

[@danieljimenez1989]

I second Nick's sentiment here. This video is a great resource, you can tell a lot of work and knowledge went into producing it.

[@DanFox]

Thanks, Daniel!

[@mariano4i6]

I wanted to write sthg in appreciation to Dan’s work, but Nick said it so well that I would botch it. Kudos Dan, and thank you for your insights. 👏👏👏

[@DanFox]

I appreciate it, Mariano!

[@somethingsafoot]

This should be a required lecture for photography students

[@bngr_bngr]

They still have photography schools? Which ones are the best known?

[@janescottnorris353]

This is the best video I have ever seen on You-tube. No filler that doesn't say anything, packed with info, well delivered and the only video of this type that I played at normal speed. Usually, I speed them up. One nit-picky thing: lose the very quiet background music; very annoying.

[@DanFox]

Glad you liked it! Well, apart from the music 😉

[@otnol]

9 months later KZbin algorithm did his magic again and showed me this absolutely amazing gem of a nerdy video. Thank you Dan. Best 40 minutes I have spent in a while.

[@DanFox]

Thanks so much! Glad you found it helpful!

[@bethlenfalvydavid]

This video has been sitting in my “watch later” folder for about a month now, it’s not easy to find the time and willingness to learn about something you know is going to be difficult. But it is so worth it! Thank you for making this, I had an epiphany. I don’t understand how your channel is this underappreciated, but it seems like people want to hear more nerdy, science talk in a world full of ‘KZbin filmmaker lifestyle influencers‘. Thanks again, from Hungary.

[@DanFox]

Glad you found the time and thanks for the comment! I don't think I could make "influencer" content even if I wanted to. It's just not my personality lol. I cringe so hard at that stuff.

[@zSAUD]

Dan, this is one of the best videos I've seen this year. Although it is very big nerdy subject, you have managed to scale it down and simplise it. Well done!

[@galosu82]

Woooo! This is one of the most valuable videos I've ever seen on this topic. The amount of information you share and how you make it accessible is unbelievable! Thank you so much.

[@DanFox]

Appreciate the kind words, Gabriele. Glad you found it helpful. And thanks for the coffee! 😉 Just noticed that!

[@DevranUenal]

I was watching health related videos for the past two weeks on youtube and randomly this video showed up in my feed. After a few minutes I had to pause and press like and sub before I forget. Beyond that, there was no chance for me to stop watching. Didn't know this video was over 40 minutes long, but I learned so much. The density of information, the illustrations and the simplifications/analogies were just perfect. Really, great work! You deserve way more subscribers and I hope the KZbin algorithm helps in your favor!

[@DanFox]

Health related videos?! That's a strange crossover 😆 but I'm glad you enjoyed the video nonetheless! Appreciate the feedback!

[@cookie-knight3885]

I was at first not sure, if I wanna watch a video almost 45 minutes long about ISO, but man, it was so worth my time! Really really well explained, even though I might not have been able to follow all along in all topics, but that's on me, being new to videography. I love learning to know how my gear works in details and you seem to be a top-notch teacher for that. Thank you!

[@DanFox]

Glad you stuck with it!

[@RheaK]

I’ve been learning a lot about photography and how my camera works lately and wow I have to say this video is very interesting and helpful so far. I just had to pause because how come you don’t have thousands of subscribers yet?! Please keep creating.

[@DanFox]

Thanks for the comment. Glad it helped!

[@andreas1701d]

Man, I'm a bit of a nerd and I've watched A LOT of camera related videos but this? This was awe-inspiring. Absolutely outstanding. Thank you!

[@DanFox]

Glad you liked it!

[@grandaddio]

I found this video 10 months after it’s release. Thank you! Thank you! Not only does it help understand the subject, but also as a guide in purchasing cameras, including “Action Cameras”. The knowledge of how any camera deals with ISO and how to logically manipulate within the device limits. Obviously those who operate in HIGH END equipment professionally, understand this, but as a nonprofessional fledgling videographer, I now feel I have a base understanding of this most important subject of ISO. Again, Thank you!

[@DanFox]

Sure thing! Just keep in mind that many of the nitty gritty details here are specific to Sony Alpha cameras. But if you understand that ISO is not exposure, you're well on the way to using ISO properly!

[@EBLovesMusic]

So freaking good. This is absolutely a master class. I can’t imagine how much work you put into this. Seriously so much good information and actually researched to a depth where you aren’t just repeating someone else’s analogy. Honestly, world class video. I have spent quite a bit of time researching this. Like an easy 20-30 hours and I could not find resources with this level information. Really a valuable resource.

[@DanFox]

Glad you enjoyed it! One of your comments actually gave me the idea for how I could package responses to all the ISO questions under a couple "why does this matter" categories 👍

[@ChargedPulsar]

Quite a bit of time researching this, 20 hours? How about some other's spending years. Dan is summing it all up, it's invaluable.

[@SteveDisenhof]

Holy 's**t', this is the BEST explanation of ISO invariance and how a camera sensor works that I've ever come across. I've been shooting Sony since they were K-M and now with an a1. But for the first time, actually understand how this all works. I just passed the link to my Sony camera group - and subscribed! THANK YOU! Really well done!!!!

[@DanFox]

Appreciate it! Glad you found it helpful!

[@almostgreen9498]

I can’t thank you enough for this. I’ve been trying and failing to understand these concepts for years!

[@MattLathrum]

I will echo everyone else's sentiments on how excellent this video is and I am smarter for watching it. It was a bit of a hard slog through the technical detail of the first half but it's worth it, because the concepts that are learned are immediately put to use in the second half. If there's one minor improvement to suggest, it would be to display final edits of the night yard scene with both the base ISO (with exposure gain in post) vs the ISO most people would choose (i.e. Auto ISO). This would demonstrate the dynamic range gain in the base ISO edit. You kind of did that with the cut-up sections but I think the takeaway people will get is to see a full image before/after when it comes to using base ISO.

[@DanFox]

Yeah, this was definitely a more dense, "hard slog" kind of video - I ultimately decided I had to err toward better detail over ease of consumption and hope that it found people who were patient enough to stick with me 😉 Glad it helped!

[@mattbarnett8265]

This video is INSANELY GOOD. This was every bit as good as any Gerald or Bloom I've seen, while being very helpful and entertaining. Subscribed. This was really good man. Seriously.

[@DanFox]

Thanks a bunch, Matt 🤘 Glad you found it valuable!

[@danhiggins8733]

Wow! I am (was) a software engineer, not a hardware engineer, so I appreciate the simplified discussion of the hardware. But your "flow" chart and what happens in different states was awesome! Such a good teacher. I'll need to go through it a couple of times and break it down into "if this (lighting, composition, etc.), then do this (ISO, etc)" for my 2 cameras. But now I understand why I need to consider what I am trying to accomplish and what I need (low noise vs dynamic range) and then approach the situation appropriately. Very cool.

[@DanFox]

Thanks so much, Dan (great name, btw 😀). Glad you found it useful!

[@DennisFreeland]

Wow 10 months on the YT algo serves up your vid for me. Thanks for updating my understanding of ISO from the the film age to digital. My 73 year old brain has its own version of noise called FOG but that was blown away by your clear explanation and knowledge. Many thanks

[@DanFox]

Thanks so much for the comment, Dennis! 73?? I'm sure you've got piles of knowledge stockpiled that puts me to shame!

[@fsi2210]

Man you deserve a standing ovation for this video . This is the most accurate and best delivery on iso. Seriously impressive. 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@DanFox]

Appreciate it! 👊

[@deeyammy783]

Agreed!

[@panagiotistsiverdis]

Instant subscribe. This is one of the best videos I've seen at least during this last year! Kudos, kudos, kudos!!! You managed to out-Undone, Gerald Undone!!!!

[@DanFox]

Ha! I appreciate the sentiment, but I'm not sure out-Undone-ing Undone is even possible, not that I care to try 🤣 Dude is a machine of the deliciously nerdy!

[@sokratisfrantzis5763]

Dude, amazing. I've been learning photography and videography the last couple of months and this the most informative thing i've seen on noise and ISO. Clear, understandable and in depth. This will be helpful to me in my art journey. Thank you!

[@DanFox]

Glad to hear it! You're very welcome!

[@DanFox]

I chat a bit about IRE in a previous video - the video about exposing using zebras and why zebras are unique on Sony cameras.

[@johnSchmitt3]

Dan - I just found your channel and more importantly this video; One of the ABSOLUTE BEST vids I have ever seen on this topic; An absolute masterpiece of information! Thanks so much!

[@DanFox]

I appreciate it, John. Means a lot!

[@-NHMeasures-]

I don't care if you have a degree or not, you are a teacher. Better than any I've ever had in just a 40 min video. Amazing work!

[@DanFox]

Glad you enjoyed! I appreciate it!

[@JANAQA]

Very first time I'm giving money to a creator because this video made me wanna do that. Thank you for making this video, man.

[@JANAQA]

I'm sending this to my photography and film lecturer at university. They are going to love this and probably share it with students

[@DanFox]

I appreciate it! 🙏

[@mr_mjcb]

This is the first video of yours that I've watched and it's incredible. The quality of the video itself is great. It looks fantastic and the diagrams are extremely useful at helping understand what you're talking about. But not only that, the information you're providing and the depth you go into is phenomenal. I rarely leave comments but you deserve the recognition and feedback. You should have way more subscribers. Anyway, you've just gained a new sub!

[@DanFox]

Thanks, Matt! Glad to hear that you enjoyed it!

[@richardcarpenter8899]

Hands down the best KZbin video you can watch to truly understand how ISO works, especially on Sony cameras. Great work

[@DanFox]

Thanks, Richard. Glad you found it helpful!

[@robertomecca]

Man, how is it possible that this guy has so little subscribers! Dan, your videos are super clear and informative and very well done! Thnaks for sharing your knowledge.

[@DanFox]

Appreciate it!

[@benbeattie4609]

Thank you for making the single most informative video on the topic of iso on the internet I have found! You have provided the perfect balance of in depth explanations of the subject whilst using approachable analogies, which is very much appreciated and a resource I shall continue to refer back to for many more years to come! Sincere thanks and warmest regards from the UK Ben

[@StefanAlexandruGeogloman]

Wow. Dan, what an awesome, in-depth video! This video was pushed by KZbin, you need more subscribers with this detailed, clear language that you put the information out here.

[@DanFox]

Glad it was helpful!

[@dorni6780]

The first time I feel like I understood something about ISO. The only and first video, that comes with enough details so that I can understand what ISO means for my fotography. Thanks!

[@DanFox]

Glad you found it helpful!

[@GreenishlyGreen]

Actually one of the best videos explaining the matter, really good video! I literally had to listen to lectures to find some of the stuff that's in this video. 👏🏾

[@DanFox]

Thanks so much, Darrell! It's been a bit surprising that so many people are finding this video helpful, but I'm glad that it is!

[@MichaelWTurner]

I just watched a 43 minute video on ISO. That's how good this was. A lot of great info clearly laid out for people of all kinds of technical aptitude to understand. Well done 👏

[@DanFox]

Thanks, Michael! Glad you enjoyed! The ironic thing is that I expected this video to be my least popular so far lol - I (apparently erroneously) assumed that no one would have the patience for it.

[@0nyxchimera]

It’s been a while since I’ve come across something challenging to understand and follow. But excited for the Journey. Thanks for the video! I’m sure I’ll be rewatching multiple times

[@DanFox]

Glad you enjoyed it - maybe even multiple times! 😉

[@madscienceofsno-king8378]

Great video! I’ve watched it a couple of times over several months to let it “settle” before watching again. So much great info and kudos for your effort! As a fellow PNW astro shooter, I hope to run in to you one day to thank you personally… Cheers!

[@DanFox]

Glad it helped. Hope to see you out there!

[@massterizzato]

I'm not used to say it, I'm not that kind of person, but this is how I intend a content creator should work. This video changed the way I see the ISO number with my camera. Thanks man. That's a game changer, really !!

[@DanFox]

Glad it helped!

[@Kamil-jn2xs]

Wow, this was great to watch! I am an electrical engineer and hobby photographer and this video really boost my motivation on taking pictures! Now i can feel all this capacity filling up when taking a picture! Thanks! :)

[@DanFox]

Nice! Probably easier for you to understand how the voltage potential can be higher once the circuit switches, then 👍

[@mdw1927]

Excellent. Watched several times, learn something more each time. I am not a nerd so takes me a bit longer to get there, but get there I did. This video should really be seen by a lot more people to dispel the amount of disinformation about ISO out there. Thank you. Got another sub.

[@DanFox]

I Appreciate it! And I think part of the value of this medium is that people can go back and watch it as much as they feel they need to!

[@ianswann3867]

Thank you Dan. Many years ago I used to design astro CCD cameras. So I have a pretty good knowledge base for this stuff but I didn't know about the dual "bucket" analogy in modern sensor designs. So thank you very much for increasing my knowledge in this area. I am often asked at my camera club about the best way to avoid noise in images and now I have more info to pass on.

[@DanFox]

You're welcome. Glad it helped!

[@johntindle1115]

Superb. I sort of knew the technical stuff (having read the patent, especially Figures 2B and 3), but for me the real value in this video is translating what this means into how you use this to best effect when taking photos. You manage to cover a huge range of issues with real clarity. My job now is to translate it all (into French) for my photo club, most of whom are ETTR , believe that ETTR demands ISO 100 and that ETTR revolves around those top 8192 values. But you have shown me the best way of doing that, so many many thanks.

[@marsgizmo]

great video! love the in-depth explanations! 👏

[@DanFox]

Thanks so much!

[@Phambino]

Wow, this video was so detailed yet so easy to understand?? The pacing, the simple explanations, the clarifications, sound effects to keep me engaged. This was one of the few videos where I could watch all the way through and fully pay attention to LOL. Amazing job breaking everything down about ISO and creating an absolute banger video on it!

[@DanFox]

Thanks! I'm glad it was helpful!

[@MadsGOlsen]

You Sir are superhuman. Making complicated info this accessible is unreal. Hoping to meet more topics im even less informed on, on your channel. Cheers!

[@DanFox]

Appreciate it, Mads!

[@shang-hsienyang1284]

41:10 finally someone clarified ETTR correctly. I am tired of professionals who are great photographers but full of proverbial nonsense when it comes to the technical aspects.

[@DanFox]

I think the ETTR one - the incorrect reason to use it, I mean - seems to make such logical sense that most don't question it. I just happen to have a background in digital engineering applications so when I first heard it, I immediately thought "...wait... that doesn't make sense" lol

[@MarioSoMedia]

Thank you for this video! You made something so complicated so easy to understand and cleared up so many misconceptions I had!

[@DanFox]

Sure thing, Mario! Glad it helped!

[@lgphtgrphy137]

I'm at 4:52 and I've already hit like and sub. Just picked up the A7RV and coming from a Canon 5DMKIV I realise I have a lot to learn. And I'm so excited to find a channel that gets down and nerdy. Thanks for the content in advance brotherman. I appreciate the time and effort and sharing the knowledge.

[@teresamarie3718]

Geeking out over ISO 😃😃. Great information, brilliantly explained. Thank you 👍

[@DanFox]

Sure thing! Glad it helped!

[@123GQ]

Best dual base ISO introduction!

[@DanFox]

Thanks a bunch!

[@stevejones01]

This is one I will need to watch more then a few times. Thanking for reducing this abstract subject to the lowest common denominator (That would be me)

[@DanFox]

Hope it helps!

[@robd99]

Its comforting to know that some (most? almost all?) of the world's greatest photographers probably knew / know nothing about this, yet still manage to turn out amazing images.......

[@DanFox]

Never hurts to add to your repertoire though!

[@sandithawickramasinghe2789]

Great video Dan. Completely agree with the fact that you have made a lot of effort in making it. Very informative indeed. Keep up the good work.

[@DanFox]

Appreciate it!

[@jherr]

This is amazingly high quality content. It's super deep on information yet presented in an incredibly accessible way.

[@bakerfx4968]

Getting into astrophotography really made me understand ISO. Iso doesn’t cause noise, we just usually use iso to bump up lack of signal

[@DanFox]

The more technical types of photography, like astro, definitely force you to understand why things happen as they do!

[@DirkDittmar]

The natural noise with the protons explanation is good!

[@jeffhampton6972]

This is absurdly informative. Holy crap, thank you SO much for making this! This is amazing!

[@DanFox]

You're welcome. Glad you enjoyed it!

[@LibertyG100]

This video changed the way i see ISO. Until now i always thought that high ISO value = Noise, which is wrong ! It proves that knowing how things work makes it easier to understand how to use them. Thanks for this very instructive video. Awesome work.

[@DanFox]

You're very welcome and it's great to hear that it helped you! That very oversimplified "high ISO = noise" myth was the very first kernel of an idea that started me down the path of making this whole video to begin with!

[@LibertyG100]

​@@DanFox One thing i don't understand tho, on my A7IV, still mode, no pp, there is kind of a "switch "at 16 000 ISO, the image gets cleaner, but can't find this phenomenon in any photostophotons's graphs...

[@DanFox]

I've noticed this, too, but it's not actually at 16,000. What I've noticed is that ISO 6400 and 12800 are significantly noisier through the EVF than the surrounding ISO values, so the "switch" at 16000 is the camera just going back to its regular linear progression. Or said another way, the "switch" is at 6400 and 12800 to MORE noise. I have not been able to figure out why this happens. Interestingly, it doesn't seem to translate through to the files (which would explain why it doesn't show up on photonstophotos), so maybe it's some kind of optimization for the EVF itself? Almost like an automatic bright monitoring boost where refresh rate is being changed and the signal boosted? I really couldn't tell you... but I didn't notice it until after I made this video so if Sony is tweaking the EVF signal on this camera, then it unfortunately makes my "put the lens cap on and look through the EVF" advice kinda poor. I only notice it happening when my evf is set to a brighter setting, though...

[@andrewbrooks2001]

I've never been very good at choosing the right ISO settings. I typically shoot almost fully in manual, but have ISO on set on automatic. If I am shooting astrophotography, I shoot in full manual mode (ISO, Shutter Speed, Aprature).

[@DanFox]

I typically choose ISO last.

[@arshadrahman1880]

Wow! Absolutely phenomenal video, explaining the concepts in a very understandable and engaging way, and not going off into the weeds. LOVE IT! I really appreciate the effort you've put into this. Thank. you!

[@DanFox]

Sure thing!

[@TaoCovillault]

Wow that's really an in depth explanation and I'm glad I bumped into this video 😳 Question, you said to find the second base ISO in video mode, we had to multiply by the same ratio as the ISO itself get multiplied when switching to video PP (so 100 to 800 is a 8 times multiplier for S-Log3 for instance). I have a Sony A7III, but since this camera is only 8 bits, I got use to film HLG3 witch had a base iso of 125. If the second base ISO for this camera is at 640 in photography, this would make 800 as a second base ISO. (640x1.25) But it's funny, I always felt the switch more around 5000... Any idea ? Maybe you could give me a more precise value ? Thank you 🙏

[@DanFox]

Glad you enjoyed the video - thanks for the comment! I actually like how you've articulated my advice about finding the second base ISO - a little more succinct! As far as the a7 III - I no longer own the a7 III so you're stretching my memory here 😉 but from what I recall, your calculation is correct. I vaguely remember the second base ISO kicking in at 800 with HLG3. The a7 IV is similar in this regard and is why I still really prefer my a7S III in low light. It's just a less useful second gain stage on the regular alpha cameras because it kicks in so low. On a side note, when I had the a7 III, I used to rely primarily on HLG3, too, but found over time that I just didn't enjoy the challenges of working with it when editing so gradually started using Cine2 more and more. You may want to try it out, particularly for lower light. Just easier to work with in 8 bit but still providing enough room to manipulate colors and contrast in post.

[@TaoCovillault]

@@DanFox I take it as a compliment, especially that I am not native english speaker 😅 And thank you so much for the advice 😁🙏✨ I'll definitely try this out 😋

[@johnchapman-t5q]

Hi Dan, I've just found this ISO explanation you did. I was understanding a good chunk of it up to the last quarter then the Jello set in the brain just ran away. But over all thanks for doing it I'm going to have to watch it a couple of times more before most of the info sinks in. It does for me explain a lot of why the image gets the grain effect. Thanks and have a great new year.

[@AndreSjoberg]

Dude, this was a super helpfull video, and very clearly explained in terms if understanding the concepts and how that affects practical usage, well done :) Also, since I now understand *why* I need a more expensive/better camera, and not only *have a feeling* that I need a better camera to get the results I want, you are the reason why there will be no family vacation this year and I have to eat instant noodles for a year to get said better camera …

[@DanFox]

Hey, now! You can't blame me if you develop gear acquisition syndrome! 😉🤣 In all seriousness though, I'm glad you found it helpful!

[@CableWrestler]

I just found your channel and I'm so enjoying every video. You have all the information that I want, plus a load more I didn't even consider. I've learned a lot, and you're definitely up there with some of the best Creators.

[@DanFox]

I appreciate it, Scott!

[@Kchernek]

This video makes me happy lol. So many people misunderstand what causes noises or what ISO does. I always think of it noise as a symptom of lack of light, and ISO behaving similar to an exposure slider in lightroom. If you have a lack of light/signal, ISO is just going to increase the brightness of that noise and everything else.

[@DanFox]

That's a useful way to think of it 👍

[@SxiiJXii]

This video was incredible in it's content. I have been deep diving lately for more informative videos to educate myself on the SonyA7iii. The take away of second base iso is invaluable, appreciate all the hard work and effort in making this video.

[@DanFox]

I appreciate the comment!

[@klaustrussel]

Thank you youtube for suggesting smaller channels! The quality is amazing and we all crave for those sweet nerdy flavour, keep it going!

[@andy.photoandfilm]

This Video of yours performs very well. It has been suggested to me and I've really enjoyed the nerdy talk quite a lot 😁

[@DanFox]

Appreciate the feedback!

[@Lochlens]

Man! the fact that this video is fully translated in Italian is amazing! It actually popped up in my home as an Italian video. (Just for reference) thanks

[@DanFox]

This is something I tried on this video that has received mixed reviews. KZbin will serve different titles to different folks depending on where they live. They do the same for subtitles if you allow KZbin to auto translate them, but for the video title, I have to manually add it. Some folks didn't like it because it created the expectation that the video audio would be in their language so they'd rather that it stayed in English. But it's interesting to hear from folks that DID like it too. Not sure what to do about it moving forward though lol. Guess you can't please everyone!

[@Lochlens]

@@DanFox Yeah makes a lot of sense. I can understand why people didn't like the fact that they feel "tricked" but at the end is so well made and well subbed that you should pay for these info. Honestly I've been trying to cover a lot of technical stuff in my main language but there is no real audience to justify the time and effort in producing these kind of video in italian. Out of curiosity: you made the translations or you used YT automatic translation? Big thank you here anyway

[@DanFox]

Technically, everything is auto translated but some of it is automatic and some is added manually. The difference on the back end, as I'm sure you know if you can see the creator studio, is that subtitles can be auto translated if you add accurate subtitles in the main language - so I add a full transcript of what I say in the video in English. But the Title and Description have to be added manually in each language. I just used Google Translate for those.

[@DJZiiWi]

I'm sure as a new and smaller youtuber the negative comments stick more than the positive comments, so I'm gonna add one to the positive bucket. As a technical nerd myself I'm absolutely loving the level of detail you went into in this video! I can tell how much effort went into striking the right balance between concise, technical enough, yet easily understandable, and I'll say you nailed it. With this video you've earned +1 sub. Thank you

[@DanFox]

Thanks so much. Appreciate the feedback!

[@AnimationPaladin]

man ive just found you, you've got excellent audio balance, comfy voice, good pacing, good graphics, useful information. damn dude nice

[@DanFox]

Appreciate it! I've never been told I have a comfy voice before. That's a new one!

[@DTND]

Fantastic video! Everyone with a dual gain camera should see this. Your content is excellent, better than many high profile creators are putting out.

[@DanFox]

Thanks so much! Glad it helped!

[@theworldsworstperson]

This is an incredible video for the amount of knowledge in it. This needs more viewers asap.

[@DanFox]

Appreciate it, Beau!

[@davidromano2421]

This is the best explanation I've heard of this topic. Most of my images are shot in my studio with a black background and I've always use ISO 100 and I have plenty of light using strobes so it's not what we would normally consider a low light situation. However dynamic range is not something I typically worry about in the normal sense where I might have blown out highlights. My priorities are smooth tonal transitions and the ability to dig detail out of the deepest shadows. Do you think I would be better off shooting at my second base ISO instead of iso 100? I have the Sony a7r5 and my second base ISO is at 320. At times it does become a low-light situation because as I'm moving the model and my strobes I don't always take a new meter reading and I do often end up with images that are under exposed buy a couple of stops and so I need to recover them in post. Maybe that changes the equation some here. Thanks

[@DanFox]

Sounds like you might actually have a lot of dynamic range you need to capture. When I refer to dynamic range, I'm simply referring to the range of tones between white and black and how much of that can be captured at once. It looks like your a7RV loses a little over a stop of dynamic range at the second base ISO, which is about typical now. It's hard for me to recommend something with absolute certainty here apart from try it and see what you think. If dynamic range isn't your priority and you find yourself in low light situations, the second base will clean things up a bit in the shadows, but it's still no substitute for adding more light to reduce photon/ shot noise. But you may find that 320 becomes your goto base ISO instead of 100 to give yourself a little room for the situations you described where you aren't taking a new meter reading.

[@DanFox]

Oh, and if you aren't worried about blown highlights (technically, clipped highlights at the ADC, not blown in this scenario), then yes, that's more of an argument for "set it and forget it" at 320. The thing you'll just have to be careful of is not allowing yourself to fall into the trap of perpetually underexposing because the image looks brighter on your screen or EVF, though if you're using a meter, the likelihood of that being an issue for you isn't all that great.

[@davidromano2421]

@@DanFox Thanks for your thoughts on it. What I should have added earlier was what my priorities really are. I'm generally aiming for the cleanest image possible in terms of sharpness and detail. A lot of the images are very clean and graphic with a dramatic look. If I want to add grain later I can do that, but I want a really crisp and impactful image for printing on quality papers and of course for displaying on a monitor. I own both the dxo and topaz products so if I just want to get rid of noise I can do that but at some point you lose tonality when you try to bring up the Shadows really far. The image justs falls apart. I've analyzed the photos in raw digger to know approximately what gray value is the minimum for any usable detail. As a simple test, if I make correct exposures at ISO 100 and at 320 and then boost the exposure in post and look at the deepest Shadows, the image shot at 100 is still cleaner. So I'm not really sure yet what to believe is the best

[@DanFox]

You're reminding me of a phenomenon I didn't really notice until I started using the a7R IV. Took me a while to figure out what was happening and I don't know if it was something that became exposed because of the higher resolution or what, but I learned that Adobe doesn't 100% handle the math right on lens correction profiles (despite Sony directly providing that to them) and that it becomes more pronounced as you push the image harder. Try turning off profile corrections to see if that helps. I was really surprised how differently the raw data was rendered and how much more uniform the noise in the shadows looked with lens corrections disabled. It's almost as if the profile corrections can't resolve the higher detail properly. I don't notice this issue anywhere near as much on lower resolution images. If you adjust the distortion manually, the issue doesn't happen.

[@DanFox]

And when you say "dramatic look" I automatically think "lots of dynamic range" in which case the lower conversion gain circuit will probably serve you better, especially since you have control over how much light is in the scene.

[@Shawns_snapshots]

This has been the most useful photography video i‘ve seen. I now understand why i sometimes get horrible photos even with great gear and low ISO. Thank you!

[@DanFox]

Glad it helped, Shawn!

[@kelvinkurniawanshorts]

Best comprehensive video I've ever watched! Thankss 🔥

[@DanFox]

Sure thing! 🤘

[@josephspoon2640]

I have never seen any thing like this before, you are an amazing engineer and a speaker, you know every nerdy detail of it and you can articulate it, I just cant thank you enough for this amazingly intelligent video you made, you are unique!

[@DanFox]

You're welcome! Glad it helped!

[@Stevo_Shoots]

This video blew my mind. Thanks for simplifying and sharing

[@DanFox]

Sure thing!

[@VideographybyMeek]

I usually donn't like or subscribe to anyone's video or page... But you my friend earned this like and subscribe today! Excellent work and excellent explanation!

[@DanFox]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@lucschoonjans4540]

OH MY GOSH. Finally, I understand the world of ISO a lot better. I will have to watch this video a few more times before it fully sinks in, but at the very least, it has cleared up ALOT of confusion. I also want to echo a question another poster asked. How does Auto-ISO play out, based on the explanations you provide in this video. There is a well-known Sony ambassador (and a very talented photographer I admire) who is advocating for using auto-ISO. Thanks!

[@DanFox]

Glad it helped! And I agree, I think Mark Galer makes some pretty great content. I disagree with his approach on certain things (like his position that back button focus no longer matters), but overall a really helpful channel. I think this question of auto ISO really comes down to personal preference and your workflow. Auto ISO makes a lot of sense when Mark is out shooting motorcycles at the racetrack, for instance, but doesn't make sense when I'm shooting landscapes. I think you can boil it down to whether or not you need to care about dynamic range and what you want your post processing workflow to look like. If you don't want to have to adjust the brightness of every image in post when you're moving quickly with fast moving subjects, I think Mark's approach works really well. If you need to squeeze as much dynamic range out of an image as possible, then you're better off going manual. Something you could try as an in-between is setting your ISO range to never use the extended range ISO, and then changing your auto ISO settings to never go below your second base ISO. So for instance, if you're on the A7 IV, don't allow your auto ISO to go below 400. Then if you're in a brightly lit scene or need lots of dynamic range, you could scroll your ISO wheel off auto and since you've limited the camera to only use the analog ISO range, you'd immediately pop into a manual ISO of 100 and only have to worry about adjusting the ISO range a short way. Long and short, my answer is "it depends." Nothing wrong with auto ISO, but if you want to use it, just be aware of the limitations is all. Hope that helps!

[@lucschoonjans4540]

Wow, Dan. Your answer was more than I expected and makes a lot of sense. Thank you SO much for this comprehensive explanation. Greatly appreciated

[@DanFox]

Sure thing! You'll often find there are multiple ways of looking at things in photography and it helps to know what your personal priorities are 👍

[@JordanLeigh]

Sometimes I’ll see educational/tutorial videos, and people in the comments are going out of their way to express immense gratitude for how great of a video it is and how great the creator is. And even if I agree, 99.9% of the time, I’m not going to contribute yet another of those comments and maybe I’ll just give someone else’s a thumbs up, because I’d rather spend my time consuming more of the videos and learning things than communicating with the creator. Nah. Not today. Stumbled across your videos yesterday, watched a few, appreciated them all, got interrupted by kids’ swimming lessons and whatnot… but came back and started watching more of your just right deep dives. Just nerdy enough to teach me things in a way my brain likes to learn, just simple enough that my brain isn’t checking out and refusing to try to keep up. Just enough analogies and metaphors. Sir, your channel deserves my ultra rare endearing comment of gratitude. 😂 Really, though, your way of communicating is exactly what I’d hope for if I took some kind of college photography classes. Alas, I’m too broke for that, so I’m doing what I can here on KZbin. I wouldn’t miss a single day, even if your classes were at 8am. And dude, I really like my sleep.

[@JDaddyT777]

First time to your channel and hearing anything about you, but 30 seconds in and I thought to myself, he seems like a Washington guy.. :) I'm in the Lake Wenatchee/Leavenworth area and just jumped into the Sony ecosystem. Just wanted to drop a line and tell you that the way you present your content and speak to the viewer I find perfectly engaging and able to digest. Thoroughly impressed. Liked, Subscribed, Ding! Happy I found you!

[@DanFox]

Oh, man... I love that area. Almost had my wedding out there. If you make it out my way, let me know! We'll go make some images! And thanks for the comment! Glad the vid was helpful for ya!

[@LeonUnity]

This is really great, rarely will I watch 43 minutes of technical data on how things work but it's really clear and concise without being "DATA" driven if that makes sense. I don't I heard a specific data point of a specification in this vide and only heard how specifications will work according to technology and physics rather than throwing a bunch of numbers at us, which we'd know nothing about. One question that did make me pause was how low base ISO had more noise than higher base ISO in Dual Gain circuitry. If you could clarify the why of this for me, I think I have it but I'm struggling a little here. So, Dynamic Range is impacted by the the "amount" of electrons reaching the well, more electrons means more information for dynamic range, while also, every electron, arriving as photons, arrives at different times, and therefore creates more noise. BUT High Base ISO's need less electrons to go above the noise floor and create a "clean" image, therefore less electrons, less data, less noise. I assume this is absolutely negligible for the most part, as it's at the photosite level (the upstream) and noise created by thermal, processing (unless raw), EM interference, Transport e.t.c. (the downstream) will always create much, much more noise anyway, making the upstream amount negligible - as long as all the information sits decently above the noise floor?

[@DanFox]

Hey Leon. Glad you found the video helpful! With regards to your question, the full technical reasons that the lower conversion gain stage is noisier is something I purposely avoided because it's really technical and I don't think it adds too much value when we're thinking about how we use our cameras. But to satisfy your curiosity at a really high level, there are a couple processes within the photosite that generate noise - the biggest culprits are the process of resetting of the photosite (which happens at the beginning of the exposure and isn't perfectly efficient - there are always extra electrons floating around that didn't get put back) and the conversion process at the source follower which takes the charge and turns it into a voltage. Even though these noise sources are small, they are major noise sources proportionally at that stage because the signal is so low and hasn't been amplified by the camera yet. A circuit that has a lower conversion gain ends up including more of that noise than the circuit with a higher voltage potential. Nerdy electronics stuff that I don't want to get into ;) The better way to think about this is "what can I control?" and this is why I focused this video toward a practical perspective while explaining enough to help folks understand the "why" of it all. The bottom line is that you can't control any of the camera circuitry or how efficient your camera is at releasing electrons during the photoelectric effect (if you really want to nerd out, look into topics like semiconductor doping, quantum efficiency, and fano noise), so it is the way it is. But you DO have some control over the photon noise (by increasing the amount of light), and you have control over which conversion gain you use (by using either the lower base ISO range or the higher). Hope that satisfies your curiosity enough! Just keep in mind that how much signal (think light here) you have still matters more than which circuit is cleaner. If you have a lot of light, then the lower base ISO range is still better, not just for dynamic range purposes, but because the additional noise contributions don't really matter - the signal is already strong and the ratio of noise to signal is lower.

[@longrider9551]

I love your honesty and the fact that you admitted making a mistake. First time I have seen you and you have a new subscriber. Godspeed!

[@DanFox]

Mistakes are human! If one can't admit mistakes, even to themselves, one will never grow! This whole KZbin thing has been an eye opener, for sure! I suspect that it's another of those things you can never truly master, just get incrementally better at.

[@electriccatvisualarts2397]

Great video Dan; thanks for putting this together - Subbed! Need clarification on something - Isn't ISO a specification of the 'lightness' of the final image? So wouldn't things like downstream gamma curves be part of the ISO result in addition to the gain circuit? Maybe I missed some info here. Again, Thanks for the excellent info...

[@DanFox]

Good question and this is what tends to trip people up. If we're referring to ISO as a film standard, then yes - it refers to the final output. This is why when digital cameras became a thing and the ISO standards were updated, it was explicitly restricted to only being applicable to 8 bit images in sRGB color space (i.e. jpeg). But when we're talking about raw images from digital cameras, the ISO standards don't apply - the image doesn't "exist" until you process it. Plus, Japanese manufacturers are required to follow different standards (CIPA). So when we stop thinking about ISO as an output standard, and think of it as a digital camera control (unfortunately using the same terminology), then we're talking about something totally different and that's where this video comes in. If you're strictly a jpeg shooter, then none of this video applies.

[@electriccatvisualarts2397]

@@DanFox Thanks for the quick reply Dan and I now get it... this can definitely be a tricky topic. Looking forward to following your channel!

[@Jay-Go]

I dig this kind of technical talk about anything. But as a newcomer to videography, this was very enlightening. Great stuff!

[@DanFox]

Glad it helped!

[@bradena.1194]

ditto to EBLovesMusic's comments - a master class explained in layman's terms that I can follow with the examples to back it up. Well done, Dan. Thank you.

[@DanFox]

Glad it helped!

[@JamieSandel]

Would you consider making a video about how ISO affects dynamic range above and below middle gray? (Specifically thinking about video- the notion that exposing above base ISO can give better DR in highlights)

[@DanFox]

I would consider it, but I don't currently own any cameras to which this is applicable and I don't like making videos about things I don't have first hand knowledge of. Cameras made by the Sony Alpha division do not reset the gamma curve as you switch between the conversion gain circuits so you don't benefit in the highlights by pushing the ISO higher and higher. Cameras made by Sony's cinema division (not just with the cinema label- the fx30, fx3, fx6 are all made by the Alpha division but the fx9, Venice series, etc are made by the cinema division) DO redistribute the dynamic range differently within the gamma curve so increasing your ISO in low light to preserve highlight detail is useful. Blackmagic pocket cinema cameras behave this way, too. So if you're shooting on an Alpha camera, you don't need to worry about it. But if you have a Blackmagic camera, you will find this video interesting. I watched it a couple years ago and thought it was pretty good: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nWnLeXmqaKibkJo

[@JamieSandel]

@@DanFox this answer was actually exactly what I needed, at least for now. My question came from watching that exact Filmmaker IQ video a while back and wondering how it applied to my own kit. My experience with a friend's BMPCC 6k seemed to confirm it, but I was wondering why the same didn't seem true for my own cameras.

[@DanFox]

Ha! Small world then! But yeah, if you decided to move up to one of Sony's cinema cameras, then you'd see similar behavior to what you saw on the BMPCC and Sony's has similar documentation for how their gamma curve dynamically changes within each gain stage.

[@ryanscottmurphy86]

This video was pure gold man, thanks for distilling that into something so consumable. Might have to re-watch it to fully grasp where the noise floor lives, but I can't overstate how great this was!

[@DanFox]

Glad it helped, Ryan!

[@soumLimpaChao]

This was so detailed it answers questions that kept popping up as I listened, amazing and detailed job while breaking it down into layman's terms

[@DanFox]

Glad it helped! And i hear ya... trying to anticipate all the questions that people would have was part of the challenge of making this video! 🤣

[@lgphtgrphy137]

Made it through and my brain in jello now too. But thankyou! I learned SO MUCH. You're a legend. Can't wait to dive right into some more of your content. I appreciate all the time and effort you put in so greatly!

[@DanFox]

Glad you enjoyed!

[@cafkafk]

this is super cool, finally a video that isn't just the most superficial coverage thanks so much!

[@DanFox]

Sure thing!

[@johnbennett8898]

This was awesome! Thank you for dropping the knowledge! Now I am going to paraphrase what you said to my high schooler who is taking photography and sound like a genius. Hello from Sammamish WA!

[@DanFox]

Ha! 😂 Never a bad thing when dad looks like a genius. And Hello from Mountlake Terrace! Love the whole area around where you live.

[@rogert9878]

Dan, I thank you for this clarifying and clear video that has helped me to understand how my Alpha 7R4 works wiith respect to the different ISO values I use. You also mention ETTR in your video and I wonder if you have made an equally clear video on that controversial matter. I'm always trying to understand the technicality behind using ETTR on an A7R4 before using it and I refuse to obey to people who tell me to use it because it works, but who can't tell me why I should use it, the different PROs and CONs associated with ETTR. If you haven't made such a video tutorial, maybe you know of somebody who has and who teaches this in a true and objective way? I thank you once again for your help in teaching me a lot of useful things, technically and artistically.

[@DanFox]

You're very welcome, Roger! As far as a discussion of ETTR, I've mentioned it in passing in a couple videos (but discussed it longer at the end of this video), but I haven't made a deep dive video about WHY it works yet. Perhaps I should in the future 🤔 I didn't think anyone really cared that much about it. I don't have a good video to recommend because all that I've seen come to the right conclusion, but for incorrect reasons so the information is bad. It took diving into a bunch of technical stuff across the internet for me to piece it together for myself. But suffice it to say that ETTR does work, you probably only need to care if you're doing a technical kind of photography (like landscape photography, for instance), and the reason to care about ETTR is improving the signal to noise ratio.

[@rogert9878]

​@@DanFox Thank you Dan, yes I see what you mean. Understandings of S/N ratio and why it is important for landscape photography is sufficient for me at the moment. Best regards,

[@deeyammy783]

Wow! You have uncovered and illuminated the unseen world we knew so little about. Thank you! This video should be a part of the tutorials in photography classes.

[@DanFox]

Glad it helped!

[@wawanbalik]

The best explanation of ISO that I've ever came across. Thanks a lot Dan!

[@DanFox]

Sure thing!

[@trdi]

Seems like you don't do videos any longer, but this one seems to have been a great success, deservingly so. I do see some other interesting videos that I am going to check. I think you could have a big YT channel, if you ever decide to go for it.

[@JoeCasson]

Wow, that was excellent. Thanks for ruining my process to get ready for bed. I just sat down and watched the whole way through. Subscribed!

[@DanFox]

Glad you enjoyed it, even at the expense of sleep! 😉🤣

[@TusharRajyaguru]

Insanely Informative. I am surprised that comparatively less people follow you. I see lots of photography videos of people who has tons of followers. One of the reason might be you talk on very deep subjects and secondly I suggest you go little slow and include more slides illustrating concepts.

[@DanFox]

Appreciate the vote of confidence and the feedback! Another reason is that even though I've had this channel for years, I didn't actually start making content until last year - so we're still relatively new as far as channels go. It takes time 👍

[@WhiteBirdPK]

Not so popular channel for such a gold content you providing... Keep it up mate! Your work is insane.

[@DanFox]

I appreciate it!

[@PayetteForward]

What a great video!! Thanks!

[@robfxdls]

Dan, if I was Bill or Ted I would say this was a most excellent video. Truly great work and very well explained. I really like your tempo and presentation style. I will make sure to watch some of your other videos and who knows, I might even subscribe!