ISTJ and Si doms: Not what you think

[@intjmoses2752]

Another great video. Thank you. When I typed people on reddit, I found Si users reflected to much on answers (mbti tests). This was true for the INFP and INTP. This caused bad results. My solution was to use John Beebe's work as a guide. I looked for the 4th, 5th, and 6th functions. An Si dom should express worry for Se details. I found this the best approach because people have more than one personality (my opinion). For example you saw the emotion and charity of your dad when he used his Ne. I would love for you to do videos were you told the story of each types' life for a 30 thousand height view.

[@dulles1969]

I wish I could (tell the stories of each type's life). It's complicated. In classic Si fashion I'm generalizing from observation/experience, and want to go from the general to the specific for examples... and want to be careful to respect peoples' privacy. Growing up with an ISTJ dad and later an ISFJ stepmother... had its challenges.

[@Jamz-]

The was the best video to watch after my typing session with TWFP ☻️

[@dulles1969]

ISTJ-INFP are adjacent to each other and use the same functions the same way. The difference is that I'm always going to struggle a bit at the things that you're naturally good at. The story about the hood latch was funny because it's familiar with my wife's car. It took me a long time to figure it out. (lift - bang! look... lift - bang! look again... the thing freezes up twice a year. Each time I remember it has something I do with pliers and a latch... each time it's the same struggle to remember what I did the last time.)

[@Jamz-]

@@dulles1969 Hmmmm.... Interesting!... Seems to me that if I were you, and you were an ISTJ, I would remember that since it happens twice a year. Like I wouldn't prepare for it, but I would definitely remember what the problem was, and how I resolved it last time. 1st slot Si advantage? I also can remember things I read and recall the facts for use later, if it's important. Like, I can get away with not writing it down if I practice committing it to memory. I also tend to learn by doing mistakes, which back then frustrated me, but now I've come to terms with it.

[@kate4733]

As an infp who also had an istj father, I spent most of my life feeling like we were from two different planets. It was often incredibly frustrating. When I discovered mbti, it helped me to appreciate our differences in a way I never had before, and my reverence and admiration for many of his traits grew. I wish I could be as disciplined and organized as he was. He accomplished so much and had a dedication to his goals I have yet to cultivate within myself. It also allowed me to view his character “flaws” in a much more sympathetic light, which increased my empathy and understanding toward him. I could forgive him for not being able to see the world a particular way, or for not understanding his inner emotional world as well as I did mine - bc I realized his Ne and Fi weren’t as strong as mine. The older we both got, however, the closer we gradually became and the more we seemed to understand each other. We went from being essentially strangers in the same home to very close and having hours long phone conversations weekly by the time I was 30. From an mbti perspective this makes so much sense to me - the older I became, the more my Si and Te developed - the older he got, the more he developed his Fi and Ne. I think that’s so interesting!! I only wish he could have lived longer so I could have witnessed him continue to develop into an even more integrated person, and he could see me do the same - we’d probably have continued to grow even closer.

[@dulles1969]

Hi Kate - thank you for writing this, it is so very sweet and yes, it's a familiar arc. My dad & I, too, are closer now than probably we've ever been. It's still complicated. But it's better.

[@winterbird4447]

A much more holistic view of the much stereotyped Si doms. I liked your take on the difficulty of finding their type due to «mistyping through memory» A particularly interesting concept indeed. Spot on about the Fi 3rd. That it takes things very personally and feels very strongly when upset is also my experience. I asked a ISTJ I know once about decision making to learn more about Te. I was surprised to hear how much Fi was put into it. The creative assignment of changing oil to a car step by step is rather hilarious :)

[@dulles1969]

Thank you!! That observation came from watching ISTJ typings on KZbin, and hearing what happens after an ISTJ is typed (a habit of coming back questioning the typing, presenting heaps of evidence that: "I really am (this other type) instead because ... (endless examples of all those times I did X, Y, Z)." I do not mess with my dad's beliefs. He is set in his ways, and there is only downside in trying.

[@winterbird4447]

@Dulles That you got that from typing sessions is exceptionally well observed. Is this Fi-Ne (with some Ni) at work? What you say about your father reminds me of what Eric said about his father in a typing session recently. (I think the austrian Peter) His dad (ESTJ as you know)has a plan for the evening and if Eric gets an idea for them to bond on the spot, nice as it may be, it is not received well. Cause it disrupts his plan and routines. I personally have an ISTP father and as ENFP it is a struggle. Even with my diplomatic skills. It felt growing up like a mix of him foregtting my existence (Fi 8th?) with Se «hostile take-over» of my life decisions backed up with Ti. Developed the part of Se that «stands your ground» though. That has been useful through life. Look forward to your next video of insightful observations whatever they may be :)

[@kaleidoscopicvoid]

@@dulles1969 that is just Eric's thoughts, which do not make any sense. You have to already assume Eric's typings are accurate, and not pay any attention to counter examples of his typing sessions which are massive. This whole ISTJ thing sounds very much like a witch trial to me: if she floats, she's a witch so we must kill her, and if she sinks and drowns, then she isn't a witch. Except it isn't an exact analogy, since at least we can know the drowned woman isn't a witch if she fails to float, but with what you are suggesting with MBTI there is really just: "Only an ISTJ would deny this typing." But the reality is this: lots of people question their typing and ask Eric to be retyped, and will point to examples of why they can't be an XXXX. Lots of them have been retyped from sensor to intuitive, or from one intuitive type to another. How else do you expect a person to refute a claim without counter-examples? It isn't even an Si thing at all: do you think an INFJ if wrongly typed as an ISTJ isn't going to supply endless examples? Of course they are going to if they feel strongly enough about it. This one needs to be taken back to the drawing board. Surely, this is one of Eric's weakest ideas.

[@dulles1969]

​@@kaleidoscopicvoid Hi KP! On HostEric typings, I'd say it's kind of like the (paraphrased) Churchill description for democracy: A bad system, except for all the worse ones. Out of 120-ish TwfP public typings I've logged there are about 6 public re-typings. About half-ish or so, HostEric declares he got it wrong. I'm sure more were typed wrong, but either they take the typing and run (if they like the typing), or they feel put out and don't re-engage (if they don't like the typing). I do think there is something to the idea of how the 'meta' of people engage correlates back to type. But your point is 100% valid, the idea that only a Si user would respond with examples, is like someone getting arrested for resisting arrest. I do think being Si dom explains, for example, people who take an online assessment and the results show they are strong in every function. Instead of assuming these people don't know themselves well, it makes sense that some people always have examples at hand that make every choice in online questions seem valid.

[@typebook]

Excellent video! The introverted sensation types (Si doms I mean) are scarily versatile and can pretty much do anything. The ISTJ type is a jack of all trades of sorts, but that doesn't stop them from being extremely hard-working and driven to perform at the highest standards. Their meticulousness has often been an extreme lament for me because I also have an ISTJ dad. I'm sure everyone with an ISTJ dad knows that feeling they get when they are asked to hold something in place for a 'minute' while they proceed to take an hour and half to fix it. From what I can see, people seem to think that the INTJ (my type) is like the ISTJ but on steroids from some perceived intuitive advantage. Not true. I'm very much in the same boat as you but in a different way. I could fix things... but it takes a certain effort or concentration that I'd rather not spend to be perfectly honest. Perhaps you could see it like doing a sport or lifting in the gym but with an unfit version of yourself, it's just more difficult work. And it seems to just take the fun out of it when you get less results for more work. The ISFJ is another one that is just exceptional, so similar in many ways but also the opposite. Their meticulousness is in a depth of understanding. They seem to have infinite patience and curiosity in exploring and drilling into things at such an expert level, a true researching type and so often mistaken for INTJs. -Chris

[@dulles1969]

My nemesis would be when my dad was working on a project, e.g., under the car, and would invariably ask me to "get the [complex tool name]." I'd rush off, eager to help ... wade into our sea of tools, have a crisis, waste time, at a loss pick something to bring back. "No! That's a [other tool name]! The [complex tool name]!" Round 2. Until he gives up and goes to get it himself. Then shows me in a scolding way what [complex tool name] is, as if that would help. I suspect at some historical points, my dad thought I was none too bright. By an ISTJ yardstick, he's right. I do know a friend's dad who is an INTJ, and the description of "certain effort or concentration that I'd rather not spend" resonates... he's an electrical engineer who inherited the family farm, but in his spare time designed industrial strength metal detectors -- he studied law to patent what he built, and long as he did that, why not also tighten up the town's bylaws for its council. But he never could keep a PC running ... it wasn't in his scope. His son frequently troubleshoots and straightens out his computer. Right or wrong, a telltale sign I have for INTJs is brilliance in certain areas, and then these odd blind spots. But I don't know whether that's fair.

[@victoriabugado6272]

I also have found Si to be the slipperiest of the cognitive functions to get my head around, and once i learned to see it, I had a hard time explaining it. One of my favorite people is an ISFJ, and they are nothing like the stereotype. It is the serene and organized mind that you have to look for, not the outward manifestations.

[@dulles1969]

Totally agree Victoria! I believe one of my co-workers is an ISFJ. She is utterly reliable and a joy to work with. She'll come to me for ideas, I'll hand off-the-cuff observations, some advice and possible directions for a project, and she'll craft that into a winner, every time. She does not sound brilliant when put on the spot unlike some of the intuitive co-workers, but she *is* brilliant. I have much love and respect, too, for ISFJs.

[@raphaeldeutschland]

Love you videos!

[@Bioniking]

I am either a repressed INFP or an ISTJ in touch with their feelings. I feel as if they are two sides of the same coin

[@dulles1969]

I agree with this -- trying to tell apart if someone is Fi/Si or Si/Fi is really hard. There are a couple telltale clues that are (pardon the expression) counter-intuitive. I've noticed Ne Inf doesn't fire the way Ne aux does ... Ne inferior shows "sparks of Ne". But there are also INFPs who refuse to put their Ne on display who'll look like that, too. Fi dominant vs. tertiary manifest differently. ISTJs can talk about values ("murder is bad."). INFP has trouble voicing values, except maybe in vague convoluted terms ("I wish people would not have to suffer, but suffering is also necessary.")

[@realitiesoftypology7502]

Quite a view of this situation!

[@dulles1969]

I've been enjoying your videos, too. Haven't commented on them yet they all seem to interlock to get to some central themes, so it seems like I should get a grasp of the whole first. Thank you for making them. On the SF Typists, there's Aimee Y who seems very good at her craft. But you're right, Aimee's the exception and I don't know any ISFJ of ISFP typists.

[@wynstansmom829]

Of all the types, Guardians can truly be said to be the "concerned citizens." Such thoroughgoing concern about anything and everything makes Guardians vulnerable to being down in the dumps, which is very likely what prompted Galen to name them the "Melancholics." To put it simply, SIs tend to worry too much, especially about their loved ones, but also about the direction of society in general. To many SIs, society seems to be decaying, morals and manners aren't what they used to be, no one shows respect anymore-what's the world coming to? These grave concerns can furrow the brow of even the happiest SIs, and worry those around them, as Oscar Wilde shows us in his comedy with the perfect Guardian title, The Importance of Being Earnest CECIL Y: Dear Uncle Jack is so very serious! Sometimes he is so serious that I think he cannot be quite well. MISS PRISM: (Drawing herself up.) Your guardian enjoys the best of health, and his gravity of demeanor is especially to be commended in one so comparatively young. I know of no one who has a higher sense of duty and responsibility . Hello, Dulles I have a nephew in law who is an ISTJ. During a family vacation I spent quite a lot of time with Pete who is an accountant specializing in estate taxes and retirement planning. He was quiet and easy for me to talk to and he was the next person in line behind me to be our trivia expert and everyone's 'Phone a Friend'. I like him. However for the first time in 40 years his mother in law who I know as one of the loveliest sweetest and least judgemental people I know confe-ssed she was rather put off by Pete and has no idea why. Over time Pete will prove himself to her. He is a good Man. “She began to see that character is a better possession than money, rank, intellect, or beauty, and to feel that if greatness is what a wise man has defined it to be, 'truth, reverence, and good will,' then her friend Friedrich Bhaer was not only good, but great.” ― Louisa Alcott, Little Women and this is a great video, Professor

[@dulles1969]

Hi Wynstan'sMom! Much left unsaid in this video. I've had this topic on the back burner for a while, how Si doesn't get fully recognized, and how ISTJs (and ISFJs) are more universal than we think. IxTJ third-slot Fi cares deeply, and its potential for quiet altruism cannot be overestimated. Is Pete's mother-in-law an ESFJ? I'm not sure of the relationship combinations, but for some combinations one party is at cognitive odds with the other.

[@jakegeneforest]

Very cool video. A few questions popped in my head and one of them is: It’s insightful to learn that they “become” what they believe themselves to be due to their Si-Te, but do you think that even though they may convince themselves that they are eg a casanova INFP, it’s unlikely that they will convince others as successfully due to their Fe-polr?

[@dulles1969]

🙏 Thank you Jake. That section came out muddled... there are a couple common(ish) MBTI mistype routes for ISTJs: mistaking Te for Ti, or Fi tert for Fi dom. And recognition that Ne is in the stack. So most ISTJs that get it wrong seem to self-type as INTP, INFP, sometimes ISFP. INFJ or INTJ seem possible. I don't think INFPs have a reputation for being casanovas... that was my dad having some weird ideas. He also used to ask me regularly if I was on drugs -- I think he believed I was soft in the head, not a bad kid but a little lost and a little slow. We did not communicate well. Anyway, the main thought was that ISTJs can draw on experiences that an INTP or an INFP (or other type) would have, and can end up looking on the surface just like these types' descriptions. With Fi tert, it feels right. Only the cognitive stack under stress test doesn't quite sync up.

[@jakegeneforest]

@@dulles1969 No the section came up perfectly fine and not at all muddled. It’s a great and clear video. I understood the message without needing a second explanation although it’s much appreciated. But that’s my point exactly - that even though they may convince themselves that they are X by showing X characteristics (a Te approach), ultimately Te is a poor substitute for Fe (just like Ti is a poor substitute for Fi), and ultimately it’s not going to convince onlookers that you’re X. Creating a step by step IKEA-like manual of how to be an INTP and following that manual will not make you an INTP AND it’s unlikely to convince others that you’re an INTP as you end up looking like a caricature instead. In other words, my theory is that despite this versatility in applying themselves into a certain role or persona, perception management (Fe) is far more subtle and holistic and involves a whole array of all those factors you need to connect emotionally with your audience in order to be good Fe. And Te is really clunky substitute. Man that casanova story was hilarious! Even more hilarious now that I’ve learned that he thought you’re on drugs, what the hell 😂😂😂 Anyway, this is what I tell my mother: “I am God’s gift to you because He wants you to learn to love someone who’s totally different to you (MEEE!!)” Of course she didn’t buy it 😂 Yeah I don’t think INFPs have a reputation for being casanovas either. I think you guys have a potential to be casanovas though, with all those chicks flocking around you, but I suppose it’s an option you decide not to activate… maybe because being a casanova can be exhausting. I feel INFPs have this “LAYDEES, IT IS SAFE TO BE AROUND US” vibe, so that vibe is quite magnetic to chicks who just wanna have a good time without feeling like they have to worry about predators.

[@dulles1969]

@@jakegeneforest Ah ok I gotcha. For the mixup of Fe vs. not having Fe, I think there's not a lot of people who understand cognitive functions well enough, and are also discerning enough, and are willing to go through the headache of calling someone on being mistyped. One perspective, in a simplistic Te frame, would be a person who states: "I took a MBTI 'test'. The 'test' said I'm an INTP. Therefore I must be an INTP. 😉 Not convinced yet? Look here, I took a second test and it also said INTP!" Making things more difficult are all the variants of personality theory. The same person might be typed differently depending on the system. I do think you are totally correct that ultimately someone who's Fe blind spot is not going to make a convincing argument to people who test for that sort of thing, and know what an INFJ should look like. It's tough trying to inform someone who thinks they're a certain type that they might not be that type... and it rarely ends well if it's unsolicted...

[@PeterIntrovert]

Hi @Dulles I wonder... can you look at CT video about ISTJs and say how they compare to the ISTJs you already know?

[@dulles1969]

I'm happy to have a look. But to be honest, I have concluded that vultology is not a useful tool for me, so I won't be entertaining it going forward. CT does have some of the best descriptions of cognitive functions that I've read.

[@PeterIntrovert]

@@dulles1969 It's ok vultology isn't mandatory. I am more personally for theoretical framework. CT have good theory because it is comprehenive, have coherence and can give some useful picture. But I think of it as updated (Ti) version of normal definitions. It's great but also have limitations. I think in the future I will give better account of Fi. For now CT captured how my pov differe from that of Ti Fi "making sense of humanity and the cosmos - from the inside out and with awarness of multi-dimensional nature of functions phenomenon. Ti is more reductive and focused at one ("the best") dimention.

[@opotoyem9942]

the real jack of all trade types are istjs?

[@dulles1969]

Not exactly and I'm sorry if my points came across that way -- it's more that ISTJs are one of the most versatile blank templates, which specializes in areas that benefit from learning and experience. I know an ISTJ or two in technology fields and the thing that sets them apart is their competence. I didn't mention in the video, besides my dad, I think my grandmother was an ISTJ -- she was quiet, unstoppable, and an expert at everything she applied through a learned lifetime of experiences.

[@yucheung5853]

I feel like these descriptions are all too very confusing, as you don't know whether you are good/bad at something until you have compared it with other people.

[@dulles1969]

I'm sorry, yes I probably didn't describe it very well. That Si at the top and Ne at the bottom of the stack makes for someone who is loyal and long-term committed to the experiences (and beliefs and causes) they know. It isn't inherently "conservative". That's something I notice can throw off people (purple hair and a nose ring? In favor of student loan forgiveness? That can't be an ISTJ! ...it can be. If those are the values they grew up with/embraced and remain loyal to.) Fi/Ne/Si tends to be less opinionated and more nuanced, often seems very wishy-washy from the outside (at least -speaking from personal experience- until I say something stupid). The stack seems to prefer new ideas instead of what's worked in the past. Re-reading this, probably none of what I said is helpful either. I'm still failing at a solid description because these ideas are all by relative measures... 😟

[@yucheung5853]

​​@@dulles1969no sorry I should have worded my comment more clearly. I meant to say that type/function descriptions in general are not enough. I think it is better if there are people/examples that we compare ourselves with.