The Anarchic Types: ISTJ, ESTJ, INFP, ENFP with Michael Pierce

#mbti #carljung #personality
Michael Pierce and I discuss the final temperament, the Anarchic temperament, from his book Motes and Beams.
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[@CyanydeKiss]

ISTJ non conformist here, march to the beat if my own drum, as I've gotten older I am more open but in my youth people had to drag me to do the things I'd never done before. I'm doing all sorts of new things now that I'm older, gaining more perspectives etc

[@giomar89]

My sister is an ENFP and my brother an ISTJ, and I’ve always struggled to fully explain the fact that they seem to share a strong sense of idiosyncracy, despite it manifesting very differently in each of them. Michael Pierce is spot on here.

[@ENFPerspectives]

Agree. I am a fan of ISTJ as friends (not the closest I have, but good discussion and respect)

[@talwyn_cc]

I could be wrong but here's what I think: ESTJ/ENFP- focus of being anarchic: if the law of the land is wanton chaos like injustice, disobeying/ignoring fair rule of law or using loopholes for corruption, they do what they deem is necessary to correct wrongs regardless of how people react or think and they gather allies along the way. INFP/ISTJ- focus of being anarchic: if the law of the land is too much tyranny/rigidity, no room for creation or recreation, law and order masquerading as justice and peace etc, they are not afraid to go solo and create their own rules they believe to be better than the previous or existing systems. If they could, both stj/nfp types would try to override and replace the system. Democratic institutions be damned lol jk. Both types have FI and TE as inferiors in their ego stack. The way I see it, it's as if both types subconsciously desire for value and control simultaneously in the societies they live in (or just anywhere.)

[@cameronpedicord1950]

As an ENFP, it is rather fascinating being looped in with types that I would normally have some level of friction with. The description of the nerf event guy tearing down the chairs actually got me on his wavelength though. It is that same defiance that comes from my Fi in certain situations. No matter what, if Fi says no, it’s almost impossible for me to will myself forward.

[@GhostofJung]

Yeah! It is weird how they are categorized at first, but slowly it makes sense. Haha, the stubbornness is certainly a double edged sword but it stays consistent!

[@twinhalf5806]

I am an anarchic INTJ, unless I can be the ruler.

[@getreadywithmemamma6973]

My experience with ESTJs is that similar to ENTJs they seem to be running towards something so that they won’t be caught by the thing that they believe is coming to get them. Running anxiety seems to fall along the lines of needing other people to be nervous about their authority in order to feel puffed up and as close to calm that they can come to. I befriended an ESTJ once and my ENFP heart nearly pumped out of my chest at first trying to regulate around her, but after a while of gaining some trust her defense mechanisms of anger and control subsided some and I found fear and care at the center. Like a strangely large proportion of it. She seemed to want to at first control me more than an ESFJ but then ultimately after she saw that I was not against her and some trust was formed, she almost respected my freedom and authority on her same level and even changed some of her own rules that she set for others and of course never really followed herself, but I think this may be blind spot territory for them. I’ve never met an Exxj who was not afraid and who could or wanted to follow their own rules, but it’s at the subconscious level. In fact, my theory is that ESFJs and ISFJs are actually the real rebels at heart. They assume that everyone else’s temptation is to break these rules to get what THEY ultimately want and NFPs we just want to be ourselves and to create balance and yes perfect democracy works…. We know it’s not real or achievable, but we are still drawn to it. I personally keep a hierarchy in my head of who I can rely on, who has what leadership skills and my best friend laughed at my pandemic ability to create my own cabinet of our peers just in case our government dissolved and we still needed a makeshift leadership crew. I had representation from across the country and the spectrum of viewpoints was in check. Yes, Joe has us with the spectrum of people, we love those and there is a huge part of me that would hate a pure monarchy l, but I still think that we need an order that makes sense and that actually subconsciously people respond the best to a democracy that still has an identity that is a monarchy, it creates more order in their minds. But, I don’t know none of the systems really work perfectly since humans are pretty heinous when you zoom out and look back: ENFPs looooove people, but still know that they are skeletons, so you know? Peace ;).

[@GhostofJung]

This was a short answer for you. What else?

[@getreadywithmemamma6973]

@@GhostofJung there is no else, haha. Kidding. The spectrum thing, I think we do that in order to allow for us to create a hierarchy of order of people’s skills and abilities not that they need to stay where they are at on the spectrum, but so that we do not go insane when we think about them. This is where we start when we look out at them and then yeah we do hope for upward movement and balance for all people to move towards our ideals, but I think that we do the “unfair” judgements of placement subconsciously on the front end so that if you dig hard enough you’ll find the monarch core there. Other types may be trying to start with giving a fair democratic start point and then move the individuals into their monarchic structure. I don’t know, just playing with that model, it’s sort of ingrained into us in our collective unconscious I’m not sure since there’s never been an isolated group of humans created or existed in another set of existence to run the whole system long enough to see what they create and evolve/ disevolve and repeat like we have been. So, who knows if it’s just our instinct like ants, or bees. Wait, you were joking ;).

[@getreadywithmemamma6973]

Also, the sidewalk crack flower, I remember reading “A Tree Grows in Brooklyn” at thirteen and thinking, “Man, Brooklyn sucks, I’m never moving there.” Instead of the obvious conclusion that I was supposed to adopt the growth mindset of the protagonist’s difficult life scenarios. I think depending on the day, an ENFP might stop and marvel at the flower and join the INFP in singing to it protecting it from the world and getting their own weed killer to zap it, or step on it to wake the INFP up. Like, it depends on what needs to get done emotionally, like where does the growth of the emotional system need to happen, or we get distracted look a bee.

[@YetziowLitzow]

I am an ESTJ 6w7, part of my anarchic nature comes from my Ne 3rd slot function and Fi grip, which comes in childish ways to propose actions i feel [Fi 4th Slot] works the most universally [Te 1st Slot].

[@andrewcamarillo5728]

The work of Jurgen Habermas(intp) is a wonderful example the Democratic type’s focus Law & Democracy. Check out ‘Between Facts and Norms: Contributions to a Discourse Theory of Law and Democracy”

[@GhostofJung]

Heck yes thank you!

[@RandolphTheWhite1]

Not sure if you're familiar with CS Joseph, he refers to STJ's and NFP type as philosopher types. He places the 16 types into four quadras. These quadras are based on familiar cognitive functions; so the philosopher type (or delta quadra) are people who use Te, Fi, Si, and Ne in their ego cognitive stack. For instance an ISTJ's cognitive functions are Si, Te, Fi, and Ne (in that order). An INFP's cognitive functions are Fi, Ne, Si, and Te. The ISTJ and INFP have the same cognitive functions just in a different order, therefore they're both philosopher types (or in the delta quadra)

[@Hari-kx2er]

CS Joseph is a total fraud. His system is neither mbti nor socionics not a healthy mixture of both. He makes totally weird comments like "INTPs will be the best to plot revenge" or "INTJ will kill you for slightest disloyalty" everything finally ending with praising his self proclaimed type of ENTP. Personality database has lots of people expressing utter disdain for his system with some even expressing horror stories of being discriminated in his community for being INFP or INFJ.

[@YetziowLitzow]

What have you read about the ESTJ?

[@DanLaw559]

I'm watching because I'm an Infj anarchist. I'm not disputing what is being said, but I will add that anarchy/anarchists/anarchism is very misunderstood even by those claiming to be anarchists.

[@GhostofJung]

Likely so, what do you believe it really is?

[@DanLaw559]

@@GhostofJung That would require a lot of explanation, However what was stated in the video about anarchism being against unjustifiable hierarchies is a simple description and can work more or less as a definition. Simplified, a person could say anarchism/anarchy means no rulers, but there are many ways in which such a simplification can be interpreted. Commonly there's the basic obvious misunderstanding that anarchists support chaos, lack morals/ethics, and our favorite way to pass the time is by making and using bombs and Molotov cocktails. However understanding what anarchism/anarchy means and what an anarchist society might look like in practice, like what ideas and practices fit within that definition is also where people commonly go wrong. As an example there are many people calling themselves anarcho-x where the x may be redundant or in opposition to anarchy/anarchism. I have a few ideas as to what I believe would be good/best for a better society, however as an anarchist I may advocate for my opinions, but I do not believe that my opinions of what everyone should do should be forced upon them. First and foremost I believe that the first step our society should be taking right now is making basic critical thinking skills commonplace, I believe that there stands a good chance that this will lead to an anarchist society and help humans advance towards a more peaceful, cooperative, egalitarian, efficient, and innovative world. I believe the majority of human's problems are created by humans. So what anarchy/anarchism is and what it might look like fits withing a set of parameters, but within those parameters is a lot of room for discussion and experimentation on what ideas that fit within those parameters are best. Personally I think currently that a moneyless gift economy fits within the parameters and would be best. That's also simplified, I have a more in-depth detailed description, but that I believe would be the correct label. In addition we could, at least in the beginning, have something resembling some of our current government. We could provide instead of laws, guidelines, to aid people in making wise decisions. We could have courts that give an opinion, and people who conduct investigations, and these opinions will likely carry weight, but there wouldn't be a set of punishments used to add additional consequences. These courts, systems, and guidelines would just be a tool to aid people in making their own decisions. I believe people need to be transitioned slowly into having the power put back in their hands and the responsibility that comes with it. I guess in short people should understand and respect others freedom to think and act as they see fit, and understand and take seriously the personal responsibility that comes with it. We should currently aid people in being better capable of doing that. We should avoid attempting to control, coerce, or forcefully influence other's decisions and actions in any form or method that serves that purpose. I'm sorry I have difficulty using few words, even now I wonder if I need to add more to better communicate my thoughts on the topic, and answer the question. I need to find a way to quickly and concisely describe the parameters I spoke of, but while I can use logic to determine what fits within the definition and what doesn't, I have a hard time trying to explain where the parameters lay versus arguing for or against specific ideas or arguments. I'll work on that.

[@Hari-kx2er]

​@@DanLaw559You don't seem to be an anarchist. You just have certain ideas on what you consider to be an ideal society (whether or not those ideas are practical or relevant). A lot of people have such ideas. That by itself doesn't make all anarchists.

[@DanLaw559]

@@Hari-kx2er Well that was very informative. You made a very strong argument backed by solid evidence and really explained yourself well. However I am going to have to disagree. However, I can agree on one point, simply because one has an opinion on what would make an ideal society does not make them an anarchist, that would be ignorant and foolish. Perhaps if you could provide a better argument, or more supportive evidence for your opinion, perhaps I could at least understand your perspective better.

[@Hari-kx2er]

@@DanLaw559 Lol, the point you agreed on is the only point I made. Of course, I don't personally know you, so I can't say with any certainty whether you are anarchist or not. From your earlier comment, it only seemed to me that you have certain disagreements with the present condition of the world and you also hold onto certain ideals. That by itself doesn't make one an anarchist in my opinion. May be your earlier comment being too verbose and slightly obtuse muddied the whole situation a bit. The larger concern here is that Michael's classification of certain types as anarchic doesn't mean every single individual from that type is an actual anarchist. His classifications are abstract conceptualizations, not a pragmatic labelling of each individual within a type.

[@amylaird502]

My analyst tells me that Jungian analysts are most frequently INFPs, at least, at the Chicago Jung Institute. Maybe it's just my experience, but anarchist, idealist, and nonconformist really are apt attributions but just to describe the first part of development. I feel like I outgrew the typical type description around 30, and I always wonder how old the subjects are that INFP descriptions are based on. I think that we start out as this idealistic type, but as we mature become logical, flexible, and understand heirarchy, tradition, and systems pretty well. I will always the abhor the idea of Orwellian conformity but after more life experience it's not a worry. I don't care about the unique flower in the sidewalk, I don't want an anarchist community... I do need autonomy, but it's much less of a concern or something I project in the world.

[@yucheung5853]

It's a privilege to still care about the little flowers on the side walk

[@amylaird502]

@@yucheung5853 the wider point I was making was, with maturity, introverted feeling blinds you less

[@LawOfOne_Lyran]

seeing orwellian conformity as not much of a worry "as you mature" seems like a devolution in thought. that shite is one of the worst things that could happen to humanity. you dont care about the unique flower on the sidewalk? in my perspective, this is not maturing. maybe in other matters you have matured. but certainly it seems to me that you have lost the magic. this is disastrous thinking for me. it looks to me like you have grown tired and dull instead of more mature in the ways you have shared. i see myself reflected in that flower. and i actively take a stance counter Big Brother because i know Big Brother would want people to not care about that unique flower and be an all-consuming brainrot drone parroting groupthink. i understand that i am not objectively correct though. we are all different and are entitled to these differences. my words may be harsh. i mean them with indifference. namaste.

[@RandolphTheWhite1]

My favorite anarchist is the INFJ Noam Chomsky

[@asianbabyboy]

Has anyone ever told you that you kinda look like Joseph Gordon-Levitt?

[@GhostofJung]

Literally everyone. Heard it 20+ times

[@hippiechick3625]

I've typed as ISTJ and I match up with all of the common traits, enneagram 5 investigator, but when I use Te it seems like it's happening unconsciously, a natural response, my sis is an INFJ and she ALWAYS notices when I use it because it irritates her furiously as she has Te blindspot, and that furious child comes out of her like I took away her candy or something hahahaha 😂😂 I often wonder if I could possibly be ESTJ because I've read that the hero function operates that way, you use it as if you were born to do it instinctively. Any thoughts about this?

[@GhostofJung]

agree. If you are totally unaware that you are using it but its painfully obvious to everyone else, than it might be your Dominant function

[@ENFPerspectives]

What? Estj 😑😐🤨😷 11:25 enfp like consistancy in Si areas, but we long to use Ne/Te, which is where our creativity is sparked.

[@raoulasare2198]

yeah...ummm...i'll see if i agree after watching....ok yeah that kinda makes sense, but as usual the bloody ESTJ gets all the bloody attention. I am ENFP! Hear me roar!

[@ZekeMan62]

They're fucking toxic.

[@ENFPerspectives]

@@raoulasare2198 As enfp I do not like attention. When I took my driver's test I got sick to my stomach just knowing I had one-on-one attention from the instructor. I dislike job interviews for the same reason.

[@thalie3182]

I want to start with Thanking you for sharing your ideas : ) But, for the purpose of helping your listeners, here are my thoughts on this video. I'm sharing them as constructive criticism : - The format of this serie is Very interesting ! But, it does not deliver ... - It would be easier to follow you two if you were presenting your ideas with more structure. I did not learn much At All about the Anarchic type, which was a deception - Also, if you completed all your sentences, and stopped saying "like" in every sentence, it would make what you're talking about a bit clearer & easier to understand (read your video transcript & you'll understand what I'm saying, it becomes crystal clear that there is not much cohesion in what you are sharing. It's inintelligible) - I don't believe ISTJ & ESTJ are Anarchic type. They want to Protect by following the "Security Rules", and they will absolutely speak up for this. They are simply bringing order back using their authority. - I understand that you will want to Remove that comment.I did not want to offend anyone, just share my observations & understandings. I have admiration for people like you who publicly share ideas to advance the field of self knowledge & better relationships. - I just wanted to help you get better at this because I truly believe in the value of publicly sharing ideas, and this is what you are trying to do. - When you're sharing publicly, comes a responsibility to the viewers & respect for their time. So Less rumble, more structured sentences & conversations would be the way to go if you're serious about educating people & so that we can understand where you are going & learn something useful along the way. No hard feeling

[@og6332]

Disappointing discussion, unfortunately. Pierce is the master but his Achilles heal as always been the NFP-STJ types. He just doesn't get it. They are not all hippies and occupy the bottom-left quadrant of the political compass. I'm disappointed that this was a such superficial discussion after how interesting the others have been. No deep dive into NFP-STJ philosophers or characters, just the cliff notes.

[@GhostofJung]

Who are your favorite nfp-stj philosophers? Enlighten us

[@og6332]

@@GhostofJung I think Soren Kierekegaard, Jean Jacques Rousseau, Camus are INFPs. Augustine is also typed INFP and was certainly not an anarchist. Heidegger is typed ISTJ. And Julius Evola is also typed ENFP. Again certainly not a Liberal or a leftist. He was too far right for the fascists! It's nothing personal but I feel that the complete system isn't taken advantage of when the Delta Quadra or NFP-STJ types aren't taken seriously. Just like when Sensation types where seen as dumb Inuition types.

[@getreadywithmemamma6973]

What about Dietrich Bonhoeffer he’s my favorite INFP although he might have been an INFJ. I don’t think so though. I’ll ask my INFP bestie and her ISTJ (I think he might be an INTJ but haha) husband and my INFJ hubs for examples they exist. Technically, Anne Frank is an ENFP philosopher if you want to start with that, ENFPs are usually too busy changing things to write. Dostoevsky? Is he in this group? No wait, he’s INFJ. Yeah, wha out about Michael he has to know. Hold on, I’m going to go into my hubs’ library I know we have shelves of this. What about Che? Or I mean Castro was also an ENFP right? They get scary. Nero? Haha I need a spelling on that one. Cleopatra? Don Quixote. This is rough. Shakespeare? Ok, those aren’t really what you are looking for but Dietrich Bonhoeffer for sure is an amazing person. I think that most of the philosophers that I love are INFJs. But, I mean if a character could be a philosopher Iago from Othello definitely an INTJ but fascinating. Ahha. Oh Huxley is an ENFP philosopher says my INFP friend.

[@getreadywithmemamma6973]

@@GhostofJung Einstein? Benjamin Franklin? How the Hell do we type backwards into history but I mean oh Queen Victoria? Frida Kahlo? Van Gogh? Hemingway? Twain? I mean half of these are not typed correctly but starburst pattern might be the best way to find them all anyway. Derrida? Half of the ones I noted I fully realize are not “philosophers” but I consider philosopher to be blanket similar to theologian… oh Watts right? Oliver Wilde oh yeah the original BA of EN oh shoot he was an ENTP? ENFP? Ok, this isn’t my wheel house of knowledge but just what my intuition is pulling up. Any real answers hahaha. I’ll just put this back into my imagination there we go Ahha. No really, it’s the ability to see beyond the thinking of the time and to shoot out to the universe for answers that have either existed currently, in the past or just you know answers from the connecting web and the INTJs shoot out to the stars in the web and bring their own web curled up into a string of celestial webs at their heals into the beyond right? So, like any evidence of that and you might have an NFP. Any fear of that and you might have an STJ haha. Alright, Ti I know you are out there… come shoot this Ne junk down and bring the real arguments and examples.

[@MichaelPiercePhilosophy]

I agree with you, actually, that NFPs and STJs are a weak point for me. I think it reflects my own NFJ bias. I have found myself unconsciously focusing on the negative when I discuss those types. I would love to hear your thoughts on how better to approach the "anarchic" types? That being said, I don't think this discussion was that different from the others. You're right that I didn't go into detail on the many philosophers of the "anarchic" temperament, like Augustine, Kierkegaard, Hobbes, Freud, Heidegger, or Derrida. It simply didn't occur to me in the discussion, though it would have been interesting if it had. But I don't recall going into great depth on the philosophers in the other videos. I bring them up only to make a point. And in this video the examples that occurred to me were from personal experience, and less from history. Regardless, I'm sorry you didn't like this discussion as much as the others :/

[@DeanChavayez]

Acropolis ? Forums Wildlands...

[@GhostofJung]

Meaning?

[@DeanChavayez]

@@GhostofJung The use of symbols might be Acropolis, Forums, Wildlands? I would have to rewatch to remember exactly what prompted this quick blurt. I would suspect Theocratics in the Acropolis. Forums of the City for the Demos. And the Wildlands for the Anarchs. Of course the halls of government are harder to pin down. Aristos? So the Palatine Hill of Rome. Or Monos, the Throne room. Or the Patriarchs of the Senate.

[@DeanChavayez]

@@GhostofJung So Acropolis - Theos. ? - Not sure there is one true symbol. Forums - Demos. Wildlands - Exarchs to Anarchs. Where the Exarchs are connected but very loosely to total independence from the greater society.