It's More Than Just Profit and Loss...

Students of Geoff's Online Permaculture Design Course have question-and-answer sessions where Geoff answers several questions weekly via videos. This question was pulled from the 2022 collection. For more permaculture insights, check out Geoff's free Masterclass at www.discoverpe...
Question: Do you think it would be more productive to speak to businesses in terms of profit and loss and how permaculture ethics can increase profits when trying to convince them to change their practices?
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About Geoff: Geoff is a world-renowned permaculture consultant, designer, and teacher that has established demonstration sites that function as education centers in all the world's major climates. Geoff has dedicated his life to spreading permaculture design across the globe and inspiring people to take care of the earth and each other and return the surplus.
About Permaculture: Permaculture integrates land, resources, people, and the environment through mutually beneficial connections - imitating the no waste, closed-loop systems seen in natural systems. Permaculture applies solutions in rural and urban contexts and at any scale. It is a multidisciplinary toolbox including agriculture, water harvesting and hydrology, energy, natural building, forestry, waste management, animal systems, aquaculture, appropriate technology, economics, and community development.
#permaculture #ethics #permacultureethics

[@huttonsvalleypermaculture]

I took your course in 2019 and am now creating abundance for myself and to some extent my local community, and sharing that journey on KZbin. I believe we have to put everything we learn into practice and show people what can be achieved and inspire others to follow this path. We can do this on a large or small scale depending on where we find ourselves. It is really rewarding to see others take notice of what's happening here and try to recreate it for themselves. You've inspired me, I will inspire others and they hopefully will continue to pay it forward and inspire an ever increasing number of people! Thanks once again Geoff!!

[@louisegogel7973]

Awesome! Yes, that’s the way we go!

[@robertling9872]

Thanks Geoff for sharing this view. When the food is natural and healthy, you reduce the risk of illness. That reward to yourself is priceless.

[@peggyhelblingsgardenwhatyo7920]

Brilliant Geoff 👏 Small daily steps will get us to the goal line 🏆

[@richardbird5697]

People base every thing on money .what happened to quality of life .people always say to me i wish i could have a garden like yours .i answer you can change your life to free the time you need .brake the dream by living it

[@michaelmitchell8567]

Permaculture is a way of life! Changed my life for sure!

[@JadedHunter]

If you add Ancap ethics to your life, you will find even more joy in your life

[@michaelmitchell8567]

@@JadedHunter interesting.

[@b_uppy]

@@JadedHunter No thanks. That is an impossibility similar to Communism. Human nature is too corrupt and the ideal is stopped by all the usual suspects including greed, avarice, lust for power and wealth, etc.

[@itsjustmetomc4848]

We have lots of farm land here in Arizona that has been worked to death, it nothing but a dust bowl in many areas except were they are building housing that no one can afford. The economy here throughout our state as well as our land has been horribly managed because of greed unfortunately. There are a few folks who have tried to green parts of our desert in the past and there are a lot more now that are working on a more sustainable life here. You are SO right, our current politicians are still not on board with saving the planet but many of us are changing that by voting them out of office. A great question but a better answer! Shalom

[@AmzBackyardOrchardandVineyard]

Greetings from Arizona growing zone 9B. This fall we are conditioning our soil with our homemade compost Mulch and wood chips. We also harvest over 400 gallons of rainwater to help create a permaculture landscape in our front yard. When the trees, shrubs and plants are established we hope they will all continue to create an ecosystem and live on in harmony with each other, producing food for us and the wildlife in our region. Thanks for all your tips and tricks and advice that really works! Cheers 🥂

[@b_uppy]

Are you familiar with Brad Lancaster and how he harvests rainwater? 400 gallons is letting a lot be lost but it is possible to increase that with earthworks using onsite materials and effective techniques...

[@ourrockydreamontheelephant4188]

What part of AZ? We are in the Sacramento Valley area, 9a here.

[@mile1060]

Thank you for your work awakening so many people about these vital issues ! 🌱

[@HerreNeas]

Nature sets the rules, the most profound statement I have ever heard.

[@derby1919]

Hi Geoff this was a brilliant question, and i totally agree, and on that I VOTE for you! To govern the way forward..

[@hopeandsoil]

Geoff, you are truly the best and most inspirational teacher of Permaculture! Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us!

[@Jordan_Makes]

I am inspired by you, and your work. Thank you!

[@ren2ski]

Love watching your videos constantly learning :) and my first food forest swale after 2 years the abundance and fertility…it’s incredible….it’s compounding…So inspiring to watch it, maintain it and see it blossom in a way I couldn’t imagine.

[@slowdownmovies4474]

"We have to do it in small ways." this is very important. Becuase. When you have some knowledge and you see all the misconceptions and bad practice around you it can be very frustrating. Just keep focusing on our small "business". Keep doing it.

[@TdotTwiFic]

LOVE the answer. Keep Screaming it. Thanks.

[@permacultisdruid3867]

"...we have to allow people to settle.." this is a golden line. Thanks for your hard work.

[@beorntwit711]

One advantage of permaculture/regenerative farming is that due to costly inputs of modern farming it is not only environmentally beneficial, but is a *financially good choice for farmers*. It doesn't require 'sacrifice for a common good' and is therefore an 'easy' win. Subsidies are still not adapted to it, however, and they influence agriculture a lot (as well as causing problems for local production in developing countries - in contrast, see Netherlands protests where state subsidies have created huge environmental problems). But changes are happening, and perhaps more pressure is needed. There are also encouraging prospects for underdeveloped countries, where low tech, low cost solutions like biochar and agroforestry are a great solution to many societal problems (including a lack of fertilizer availability). Congo, eg., has mostly ferralsols and acrisols - not bad for agriculture, but leeched of nutrients. Practicing permaculture/regenerative farming would greatly aid in resolving the many many issues the people there face. Science is also moving forward - orphan crops are being seriously considered to combat climate change losses, and provide better nutrition (and hopefully prevent loss of genetic diversity).

[@b_uppy]

Most soils are now incredibly impoverished and permaculture practices are a thing. Would like decentralizion of farming to occur o that we see more family farms with increased efficiencies, local resiliency, health, profitability, etc.

[@thegr8stm8]

Absolutely fantastic… well done, Geoff…I wish I was 20 years younger I would visit. Two Aussies together from the same area back home… Cheers, Johno

[@kijkedwin]

Matt Powers is building a database for soilmicrobiology, open source, everyone with soil can donate data and it is growing so the consumer can choose produce grown from the best soil (and the price will be relative to quality).

[@cletushatfield8817]

Make sure you register your garden and support the carbon surveillance system.

[@jenniferspring8741]

Right on Geoff. Tell it like it is. We have to realize that there are many places in the world where human life and other life is hanging on by the merest threads. At this point, thinking about bank accounts is so non-productive for our own future. We who have a bit more natural resources around us have to humbly build up biodiversity as hard and fast as we can! Thank God there is a way. Observe nature, get the water and the plants in there, stand back, watch what’s going on, and do the next bit a bit better.

[@dinosaur0073]

Thank you Geoff.... We are moving towards that direction. So far the resulting of repairing soil satisfy 😌.

[@crpermaculture]

Yes! We need an ecosystemic approach!!

[@Reyajh]

You're soo right. It's insanity to allow farming to go on the way it is... But if we don't insist upon it (USA here, but everywhere really) and vote upon it. It ain't gonna happen before a collapse. And, it ain't gonna happen before a collapse. Big business, greed is rampant. What has happened is that (basically) every year everyone tries to cut corners more, to undercut the competition and every year the game has gotten dirtier and dirtier until it is where it is now, boiling over, about to explode. Hopefully they don't take us all down with them. But the Earth IS resilient... So glad to see you continuing to put new videos out. Always glad to see the permaculture movement on the move :) -Cheers!

[@joebobjenkins7837]

How are you going to vote? Shall we give the same group that said round up was perfectly fine to spray on corn for food to determine what is/is not organic (USDA organic label)? Or do we vote to have regulators take a hike (Ill take my milk raw, thank you). Its easy to make laws banning things we dont like, even those that are a huge problem (Monsanto). But it will always turn around to bite you in the rear because youve given authority to an animal that can be manipulated for the right price. We have to vote for codified rights of people and farmers and resist the urge to use the gov to smack those that are crappy. Let them die by their own sword.

[@Reyajh]

@@joebobjenkins7837 It sure sounds like you're putting words in my mouth there, but otherwise you pretty much summed up what I said needs to happen and why it won't actually! Not enough people understand what needs to happen, oh, and they do control most of the media. All of the main stream so there you have it...

[@joebobjenkins7837]

@@Reyajh not putting words in your mouth, I dont know where you stand. Ive just seen a lot of folly in calls to bring out the vote in order to change some ill doing.

[@Reyajh]

@@joebobjenkins7837 There's really no folly in calls to bring out the vote... If more people paid attention, got more involved in politics, we'd all be a lot better off. But it won't matter because disinformation rules, and the people will sell themselves back into slavery. Happening right now before our eyes...

[@LilianaUsvat]

Thank you

[@wobblybobengland]

I find it amazing how 'other people' live in their fantasy daily of homo industrialis, last week I travelled to that place of highways and highrises for the first time in years and watched it, it's a frightening and weird place.

[@RobbieAndGaryGardeningEasy]

Great Video. Love the facts here! I do it on a small scale with my garden as I create SOIL that is totally alive, and the plants do well, and I have more of my own soil to spread around week to week, month to month and season to season, proving this does not have to be in the ground, but can be accomplished in container gardening on small scale when need be, with no added chemicals, THANK YOU

[@joepeeer4830]

Ty

[@HFTLMate]

Correct thanks for sharing

[@FalcaoMarrom]

Paul, your equation is inverted. The starting point of the demand was not us, "consumers". A historical correction: it was not "we" who demanded lower prices from the Market and therefore the market would have moved to cut spending on workers (which is condensed into slavery and inhuman exploitation of the workers) and to cut spending on inputs (which is expressed in the destruction of the environment). It's not our fault! Insted of it, since the "Industrial Revolution", at northern European countries, more specifically the United Kingdom, which, when reached an overproduction due to the "Enclosure Movement" and the new industrial machines, had to expand its consumer market (UK did not support the end of slavery in the Americas for being nice...), had to create consumption needs, and, in short, we started to be counted as consumers and no longer people. Nonethenless, we as COLLECTIVES still can do a lot to repair this situation. Maybe there's time for change.

[@halbertking2683]

" The money sequence of value is decoupled from the nature sequence of value . " Professor John McMurty from " Zeitgeist Moving Forward " .

[@liammtb7036]

well said

[@allon33]

A few years ago I heard the Head of the Farmers Association of Australia begging to be allowed to continue to use Round-Up. So wrong.

[@93VIDEO]

5% Organic Matter = the soil can hold 1000 m3 of water per hectare = 100 litres/m2

[@improvetheworldnow]

How do you reconcile the requirement for monetary basis of action in a system that enforces unethical market distribution of access to land itself with action that is not driven by profit-motive? How can the majority of humanity gain the opportunity to even ATTEMPT smaller scale abundance through symbiotically related diversity, if most people alive are suppressed so much by the monetary system? Would we need a social movement to apply direct action to change the nature of land access, or is there another path to allow for the redistribution of poor urban populations into spaces where they actually have a chance to create small scale abundance? Could national desert restoration programs incorporate this? To offer training and opportunity to impoverished people without access to land, to work together to turn abandoned desertified lands into functional ecosystems that include ecological human habitat? How could something like this actually happen in practice when so many people are not making the choice we are REQUIRED to make for our very survival as a species? Is it simply a matter of redirecting institutional funding? How could that be done? What is the real step to take when so many people with economic opportunities are buying up vast swaths of land that they cannot even manage, and the majority of the population is left without enough space to provide for themselves?

[@DrRudyScarfalloto]

I agree that ultimately it's not just about financial profit and loss, it's about profit and loss that includes the life of the soil. However, I am very skeptical that legislation is even part of answer, because even if the law makers sincere (big if), there a tendency for such legislation to eventually be abused to the point where they no longer serve the public but rather the big factory farms and the chemical companies that promotes them. I am inclined to think that education is the way. Furthermore, as I see it, from purely business standpoint, one advantage of the permaculture systems is that they don't have to be as profitable as conventional farms, they simply have to be profitable enough to allow small family owned farms to be prosper. And I am confident that, as permaculture systems become more common and more popular through grass roots education), we will continue to learn from them, and we will learn how to make them more profitable.

[@guillaume-_-3219]

Do you have a study on the link between percentage of organic matter and water retention in the soil?

[@joebobjenkins7837]

Dont know about a study but Salatin repeats its about 30000 gal/acre%. (280 m3/hectare for every 1% increase in carbon content)

[@mojavebohemian814]

Thank you Mr. Lawton. It has nothing to do with monetary profit. N.E Arizona, USA.

[@cletushatfield8817]

Money is the means of power. It's how force/violence is bought (incentivized). People are incentivized, and thus they do their masters' bidding. Therefore, it has everything to do with "it".

[@rocknrolla257]

Agree. But money produced from regenerating soils can be used as a tool to further regenerate soil and money can also be used as a measurement to to assess progress. You gotta have a triple bottom line, I.e. Economy, social, and most importantly ecology. Farms need to have permaculture design integrated with holistic management (social, economy and environmental.) the farmers efforts need to be rewarded.

[@christopherbarbosa321]

Hi Geoff, big fan here from Canguçu, Brazil! I have a question: You say that the "Golden rule about making compost is if it lived it can live again" that being said, how I compost acid citrus like, orange, lemon, limes, and onions (not a citrus but also acid). Literally every one that I watch say it can not be done in quantity because of the acidity, I would like to have your take on this. We plan to have a essential oil business, so we gonna have a lot of citrus laying around. If you could coment on composting cooked/steamed organic matter, like leafs, there is any difference? Ps: sorry about the broken English.

[@MartinaSchoppe]

And in regards the organic matter in soil: Most people (in agriculture, gardening, etc. believe "5% organic matter is high"... Of the top of my head I don't know where I read this, but one early soil scientist measuring OM in Australian soils he found rates between 11% and 40 (in words FORTY!!!) % . Everything below 3% should be classified as "desert", in my laywomans opinion.

[@b_uppy]

In better managed pastures it can climb rapidly. Think the ag industry component that sells products push the 5% premise.

[@MartinaSchoppe]

@@b_uppy yes, I know that. And they SHOULD know that, but don't. Als long as they think, that 5% is "high" and they have about 2 or, WOW 3, they don't even start to think that soil (and with that whatever they produce on it) could be so much better...

[@barnabyvonrudal1]

@@MartinaSchoppe I was wondering with these OM figures, is it just the OM in the soil or does it include the mulch layer as well?

[@b_uppy]

@@barnabyvonrudal1 In the soil. Mulch isn't soil.

[@barnabyvonrudal1]

@@b_uppy makes sense. thanks!

[@TheModernHermeticist]

💚

[@Picci25021973]

The choice is between changing paradigm, or becoming all bretharians!

[@bitlessmind]

How do I measure the percentage of organic matter in the soil? 🤔

[@stormagorist6129]

Government cannot solve the problems. By definition government IS the problem. We need leaders, not rulers. Rulers, even ones who are dictating what you want, must assume omniscience. The problem is that NONE of us are omniscient. We may know more today but I guarantee that future generations will find frightening and dramatic problems with the systems you too are advocating right now. I am not suggesting that these are not infinitely better than the old ways, but rather I am just recognizing that we are fallible, non-omniscient beings. So use persuasion instead of coercion and violence. Allow for the flexibility of people to try new approaches to see if the results are better. I predict fungal based systems will replace the current permaculture approaches, though I could be mistaken. We must not use the rigid and grossly immoral governmental/violence based approaches if we want to see real and productive change. We cannot speak of ethics and promote government. The two are by definition at odds.

[@PaleGhost69]

Waiting for someone to show up and say "Thats communism"

[@GodEmperorSuperStar]

I used to think that industrial ag had absolutely no future, that it was destroying everything including itself. When I started to look into regen ag I was thrilled to see that industrial ag was making tiny baby steps in the right direction. The regen ag people should be embraced for the sake of solidarity. Is "permaculture politics" preventing that?

[@mlindsay527]

Humans are greedy. Collapse is going to happen. 5, 10, 50, 100+ years from now, who knows? Permaculture offers a bit of a life raft IF we go big and go early. I am 10+ years into temperate food savannah and the tree crops (chestnuts, pecans) are just starting to produce, it might be another 5-10 years before they are really cranking. I am still very dependent on out side feed inputs (hay for the ruminants and grain for the monogastrics) to raise livestock, but I am working to improve. My biggest lament is that the most obvious fertility “waste” stream, municipal sewage, is polluted with chemicals to the point that it is questionable for use on our farm, even though it is composted and offered for free. As much as I hate politics, solutions are going tohave to come from the top down just as much as the bottom up.

[@tim9497]

Great as usual Geoff. However I don’t see anything wrong with Regenerative Ag which broadly means building soil and encompasses many ideas like Permaculture, Syntropics or rotational grazing etc.. Guess you are referring to providing for our personal needs first and the ecosystem with a smaller set up vs a commercial farm. Is that correct mate?

[@percyblok6014]

Meh, he's talking his own book now. Sounds like the "human extinction" agenda has caught hold in Lawton's processes.

[@sameerparve1151]

Very true Sir. Soil water and environment is at the lowest value here in India. I have been watching your videos and learning to built a same ecosystem in my farm. With much criticism and resistance from the other chemical farmers. Hopefully will succeed in this.

[@eriknielsen1849]

Living in Mouritanien west sahara and they are experts at destroying soil here... And yes organic matter and shadow is the game changer here.

[@bobbysmac1009]

SOIL is the answer. What is the question?

[@izzzzzz6]

We need to consider the health of the planet on a parallel to our own health we need the planet to be healthy just to be healthy ourselves. This is how we can profit, profiting should not be only about money. Regarding how to get the people with the most power to adopt a healthy future i believe any actions that harm others or nature need to be cut off at the harm causing stage. This will regulate everyone but a least it will force big money to also be regulated or to divert their spending towards ecologically positive outcomes. It's time to reel in our natural instincts that were designed for a small wild world and swap competing for sharing and to swap being territorial for being welcoming.

[@dustinabc]

Notice that the worst industrial farming usually happens in places with the most controlling governments. Many of these farms are more interested in the subsidies they get from gov't's stolen (taxed) money than they are in actually producing food for the market. It's no surprise that students in gov't schools are taught more about submission to authority than they are taught about natural law and natural rights. Statist gov't is the problem, not the solution. The changes must be implemented voluntarily and free of coercion to be beneficial and sustainable. #NonAggressionPrinciple #VOLUNTARYISM

[@b_uppy]

That's very true of China. They still practice conventional ag practices and it is hurting. It is the efforts to centralize/globalize and loss of local nuance/solutions is impoverishing everybody. All except for the globalist elitists of government and corporate conglomerates are as Geoff puts it in 'a fight to the bottom.'

[@blablabic2024]

Only way out is freedom of choice, not mandates and legislations.

[@jeanetteschulthe1andOnly]

I think big business will change their ways willingly when they get our backs.

[@Reyajh]

I'm sure that went right over 90% of the heads out there..., maybe more.

[@EvolutionWendy]

Friend, the 'race to the bottom' no longer involves what consumers are willing to pay, the more significant aspect is the capitalist ownership. The capitalist model sucks all possible profit OUT of a business, and transfers it to the owners. Paying a mega-company extra for our food will not increase quality. Buy via CO-OP. Buy at the Farmers Market. Those capitalist large companies value only profit, not quality or Earth health.

[@blakereid5785]

This question asker needs a little non western economics in their diet. None of this is laws of nature. There is no reason why a farmers should compete for venture capital or with other countries to survive. Any more than the fire department or trash collection. The infinite growth model is not necessary. It’s purpose is to support the leveraging of everything real for debt to make the the number on the stock exchange get bigger. You can’t dump engine oil down the drain to save on disposal, it COULD be the case that you can’t use certain farming practices. There are already tons of toxic substances that are banned for agricultural use. There are also many economic tools to protect and support farmers as we make this transition. Cost controls for farmland, tariffs, subsidies, tax law. We actually already have versions of all of these that have done a great job of what they were geared to do. The trouble is that purpose is destructive. We can’t let the silly artificial rules we’ve signed onto convince us that they’re natural.

[@lovecatspiracy]

Regenerative Ag IS about the soil. See the work of Dr Allen Williams

[@apotheosisofarose1425]

❤️

[@davidwooden8742]

Soil food web.

[@highfive9835]

The better people's standard of living, the more environmentally conscious they tend to be. We need to raise the standard of living for as many people as we can, and we need good marketing. If we can manage those two things, people will do it voluntarily. In fact, that's already starting to happen.

[@Joao88888]

based

[@seppomuppit]

I don't think you should call science a 'religion', or distance yourself from it. You are doing science with your efforts, and that should be the lens that you project your work through.

[@richardruss7481]

Consumers HAVE NOT all asked for the MOST product for the least price, businesses have done this to themselves. Consumers regularly pay higher prices for better quality, businesses ignore these people, because they can make more profit selling junk if good products are not available. QUIT SPEWING THEIR NONSENSE AS FACT!

[@TheRahsoft]

Unfortunately, it's not profit that you are facing the uphill battle against, but govts and political groups. We've already seen their attempts to control the narrative( Sri Lanka) and the end result, plus the controlling behaviour of govts over farmers( Canada and a Netherlands). You are facing a huge entity that is controlling many govt/political figures. You want things to change(not just in agriculture), then you have to exercise your vote (which means you have to research what you expect from the people you vote in, not just press a button like a member of the herd). Small farmers, like Geoff has pointed out( and even back garden/allotment farmers) will be ones leading the example in this). Change will come from the bottom, not the top...

[@daval5563]

Right now I have swore off humanity believing we have traded our serious live/die lives for meaningless and disrespectful childish games of win/lose and then use this moronic understanding to structure every aspect of society with. Live/die, win/lose, except you don't really die! You just don't have an opinion that matters and your abilities must support and maintain the system that screws us. "Eternal growth and profit" here where nothing grows forever and profit is a concept used to concentrate the abundance of our world into the hands and control of the few, the elite, the entitled and those great winners in a perverted world of win/lose. We live in abundance, not profit. Profit as a lie requires the constant expenditure of our precious time, energy and belief in order to exist and if you don't believe me, ask Santa Claus and his flying reindeer. So I work on the Ways of the Win/Win for the future child, ... if there is a future child. The Economics of Time. A community owned "not for profit" Economic Win/Win based in "time" alone, backed by the abundance of our world and built on a foundation of truth and reality. In reality, the time and energy "spent" in production renders the product paid for. In reality, everything we need for our lives and convenience can be calculated in the human time required for production and then exchanged "equally" for all that time produces. No fiat currency or lies of profit required. In reality, we cannot get our spent time back and our economy must reflect this truth. In reality yesterday is gone, dead, stagnant and non evolving and if anything is not as important as today therefore can not be worth more. The worth and value we arbitrarily assign our time and energy must reflect reality and do the same by losing worth and value over time. No one hoards a worth and value that can only decrease and to receive the full value of the time you have earned or worked and have to exchange, spend it before it devalues. Once back in circulation "working" for the benefit of everyone, your worth and value "stabilises". Stable is as good as it gets in reality. Imagine the abundance of our world transformed into the worth and value of our time and energy, then kept in circulation "working" for the benefit of everyone concerned, even those not concerned, and how this abundance would compound annually until the future child was born rich instead of being born owing an un-payable debt of lies and corruption called the eternal and entitled profits of the great winners of our perverted past. Born slaves just like Mommy and Daddy. These are the seeds of Win/Win, given freely and unconditionally. Do with them what you will. May the abundance of our world always be manifest in your life, ... and have a great one!

[@timtation5837]

I applaud you and almost everything you stand for Geoff… I honestly don’t think that most people can live in the way you propose. Human nature goes against it, be it a hippie commune in the 60s, or a food forest commune in 2030… Greed, selfishness, self centered behavior are the default for the vast majority of humans… Your proposal can work for a few that CHOOSE it, but very few will. And I agree that the survival of humans is on the line… But I also think that might be part of the only solution that works… A lot of people are going to die… Be it disease or illness caused by poisoned food from modern ag, or global warming, etc. I think it will be a massive combination of all of them. I see a future where food is really hard to grow and nature will need all the help we can design into systems to support her. Those who design properly might survive, those that fail, or are overrun (by starving masses) will not. I honestly don’t see the greedy, selfish, corrupt, power-hungry people that run the world embracing anything near what you propose. Almost everything in life and natures seeks and finds balance, except money. Money never finds balance, money has no balance, money doesn’t even comprehend the meaning of the word balance… And money runs the world. Money will fight to the death in order to cling to power… And death it shall get… Who will be alive after the dust settles and money has lost all value? Money loosing value will be the downfall of current global civilization. When that happens (and it WILL happen), billions of people will starve to death. Countries won’t have enough fuel or food to even attempt a war. It’s just going to be that most people starve because they have no food and nowhere to get it (and nothing to trade for food). Not being able to grow food via conventional agriculture (due to climate change) is a very likely catalyst for economic collapse. And food forests might collapse along with them… Unless we can find ways (design ways) to help nature mitigate the new climate extremes that are in the near future. I apologize for all the doom and gloom, but I think it is honest and necessary. I know human nature, I have spent well over 50 years observing it. Humans (as a whole) are not going to start reversing global warming until every bit of ice on the planet has melted. And that will bring about the end of chemical agriculture, and trigger economic collapse, and the apocalypse that comes with it.