It's Time for Talk Heathen to Change Their Name

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Well, I guess we need to cover this.
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Discordia Call: • Ares & Discordia Expla...
music by Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio
00:00 - Intro
00:19 - Lets Talk Heathen
02:04 - History of the Term Heathen
05:59 - The Problem - A Discordian Caller
09:41 - So, Why Wont Talk Heathen Change Their Name?
11:10 - The Dictionary Definition of Heathen
12:59 - The Objection with Atheists Using the Term Heathen
14:01 - The Solution - How do we Fix This?

[@capitalistraven]

Missed opportunity to do a Good Mythical Morning opening: "Talk Heathen isn't about Heathens Talking, Let this Heathen Talk about that"

[@OceanKeltoi]

Damn that's good.

[@doktordanomite9105]

I think a norse buddhism sounds super interesting

[@DeepFriedKangaroo2]

@@doktordanomite9105 That isn't as crazy as you'd think. That's the beauty of Polytheism: you don't have to limit yourself to one pantheon of deities. For example, I, a Norse Heathen, am currently dating a Hellenist and have had some pretty awesome experiences involving the gods she worships, and she's had experiences with the Heathen gods that I worship. I also follow Native American customs while dealing with Landvaettir, because the Native Americans weren't exactly following Old Norse customs while dealing with them and why should I expect the Landvaettir to accept something they aren't used to? That would be like if I moved to Japan and demanded that everyone there learned to speak English because I'm too lazy to learn Japanese. The point being that Polytheism is fuckin' badass.

[@zombiedoggie2732]

So technically with me being a Buddhist, I'd be a Heathen according to the dictionary definition. Should I go to Talk Heathen to talk about the Four Noble Truths and Dharma?

[@zargonofb]

I'm sure they'd welcome the call. Everybody is somebody else's heathen.

[@FaiaHalo]

Anyone can go... Also, Seth even had a talk with Buddhists who literally explained this to him on his podcast, The Thinking Atheist.

[@coopergates9680]

Talk Heathen technically prioritizes theist callers, but they should be interested in any supernatural claims or questions, including if you believe Mahayana, Theravada, Tibetan, or some other denomination is the most "true" of them. Oh, and this is a little adventure kzbin.info/www/bejne/n2PafayenMqMqdk

[@angelikaskoroszyn8495]

Well yeah. Find any fundie Christian and wait 'till they tell you you're either a heathen, pagan or devil worshiper. It's important to notice that for a fundamentalist those three are the same But that's what's the debate about. Both pagans and atheists want to claim the name As long as Christianity is the main cultural driving force it could be difficult to make the change from the bottom up

[@Dingy-doodles]

I believe Zen Buddism is by definition strictly nihilistic, so, depending on your beliefs, and their mood that day, yeah

[@helygg8892]

I'm going to make my own show called "Christian power hour"...we're going to focus mostly on the state of the middle east...and legos.

[@bjrntheliar5457]

I would gladly listen to this😂

[@OceanKeltoi]

This is amazing

[@oneeyedwilly8139]

Came for the Jesus, stayed for the Legos

[@bookwyrmneducator]

Please do this!

[@Dloin]

be careful of the Lego Part. Lego is very sue-happy ^^

[@jonathanmacpherson1421]

"...there's your boring history." Wait no, come back, I want more history.

[@gothamgirl]

Ikr! It's not boring 😭 we need more!

[@tyrantxanthus815]

I'm sad I can't up vote this more. I agree 👍

[@nachobidness2553]

When I was growing up, "heathen" was used to describe a live fast, die young party animal, and older people still assume that's what I mean when I refer to myself as one. If only I was that interesting...

[@krispalermo8133]

And chanting the Greek god " Pan " heard from a distance sound a lot like Pa -rty. Random person, " Why would someone drum them chest and chant .. party ?" Me, " Sorry, .. we were chanting Pan." Random person, " So, .. you all Peter Pan fans ?"

[@IkedaHakubi]

For the Dictionary tells me so! LOL.

[@LiEnby]

I know this reference and I appreciate it xD

[@Aging_Casually_Late_Gamer]

When you said discorian, I really thought for a sec that people made a religion around Discord from My little pony.

[@Dawnseeker_Ch]

Lets face it, De Lancie is entertaining enough people would join that for the luls. Even if they went with calling it Q-ism instead.

[@maxmatthews2463]

Surtr supports this flame war.

[@malfaro3l]

As an atheist I’ve been thinking this precise thing about this show. Religious zealots are the problem, along with anyone else engaging in discrimination, oppression, hate and persecution. Our goal should be to protect the rights of minority religions and allow them their identity. The name should belong to those whom it would best serve.

[@MrEnaric]

Agreed. Blessi þig!

[@mrmaat]

Names belong to those who claim them. If atheists want to call themselves heathens and the term has well-attested semantic range to apply to atheists, they are entirely justified in claiming the label “heathen”. That’s not persecution of Germanic pagans, it’s how language and groups work.

[@andreastewart177]

@@mrmaat as stated, casual usage is fine, we don't care. but branding a show, channel, page, blog, whatever as Heathen, when it is Athiest or even worse anti-theist is problematic. it is very frustrating for Heathens who already have to filter out bigotry, to also have to filter out athiest contest misbranded as Heathen. it costs you nothing to not use it as a brand name, it helps us a LOT.

[@mrmaat]

@@andreastewart177 This type of semantic confusion is common for almost any ill-defined set. Talk Heathen content isn’t misbranded - atheist content IS heathen content both by definition and by historical usage of the word. Claims that the term “heathen” applies more specifically to Germanic polytheism have merit, but if it’s really that big of an issue, I suggest polytheist, traditionalist, ethnic religions use more precise titles to differentiate themselves. For example, the word “Christian” is a very broad term that encompasses thousands of denominations, church hierarchies and historical practices. Catholic Christians are very different from Pentecostal Christians, but neither group is justified in asking the other to cease using the broad term “Christian” because it might create confusion amongst new converts. The smartest way is simply to adopt different and more precise language, like “preChristian Norse” or “reconstructed Teutonic paganism”.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

Not disagreeing with the problems and goal, but I don't think names can or should ever belong to anyone. That is of course within the bounds of communication, so perhaps here in the case of being consistent with the specific history of a term there is merit to this whole video. My concern is in viewing the possession of terms or names as analogous to possession of land (long term) or possession of cultural aesthetic. Absolutely we should recognize when a people inhabited an area for a long time or a culture championed a particular stylw of art or clothing, but in either case and with the matter at hand I oppose letting anyone have a monopoly on something forever. Especially when words change usage over time. Though to me, this is all second to the overall goal of combating harmful ideas.

[@ashleighM6748]

The simple fact is that if an Atheist told me they were a Heathen I would be like, “so do you or don’t you believe in the Powers?” It’s just confusing

[@celticconlanger6401]

Honestly surprised you didn't pull the Dictionary definition of pagan, cos it's pretty much identical to that of Heathen, and yet most atheists would avoid using that term because of its religious connotations (which, is ironic , given Heathen also holds religious connotations...)

[@minutemansam1214]

Heathen is anyone who isn't a Christian. Pagan is anyone who is follows a religion that is not 'mainstream'. Heathen has no religious connotation. Pagan does.

[@TimelessTransience]

@@minutemansam1214 No, the difference is that heathen is a word of Germanic roots, where pagan is a word of Latin roots. It is a matter of linguistic background. Both have religious connotations. That is not to say that they don't or haven't also had uses to describe non-Christians (or non-mainstream or simply non-religious.) I am totally fine with Atheists using these words to describe themselves, but not in a manner that will draw the religious to hostility. (Something that has, at times, been said of Talk Heathen.)

[@lotter4390]

Heathen and Pagan, at least in their root meaning refer to identical demographics. Both has its roots to refer to rural/rustic people that still follow the old folk religion.Pagan is the Latin term for people that lived out in the Italian countryside while Heathens were used for Anglo Saxons out in the sticks that had not yet converted.

[@bjrntheliar5457]

I do agree, I don’t much appreciate there tone. I’m glad you have brought this up thank you!

[@chainsawman10]

Showed this to my boyfriend and he wants to make a pro Norse Pagan talk show called Talk Heathen 2: Electric Boogaloo

[@freyja5800]

I would watch that as long as it is also anti-folkist

[@chainsawman10]

@@freyja5800 definitely

[@jaxthewolf4572]

interest

[@Michelle-ue2pb]

I fear you would be overrun by boogaloo bois

[@shanehewitt18]

@@freyja5800 what is folkist?

[@jonathanbartlett1098]

Usage of the dictionary definition as a justification for continued use of the Heathen label while bashing other religious or secular groups is akin to making a channel titled "Gay Bash" that features hosts who belittle the LGBT community while using the excuse that the word Gay means happy. If they insist on using the dictionary to justify their use of the word Heathen, perhaps we should focus our efforts on Webster to update the dictionary definition to reflect the modern usage of the word. Dictionary definitions always change according to the changes in language, it just takes time to enact that change

[@SakiBlablabla]

Not even modern at this point, it is quite clear Heathen was used by Christians though out History to point out Germanic folks who practiced their ancient native sets of beliefs ! It’s only with time that the word evolved to be kind of synonymous with the pegan , as in any people who didn’t practice Christianity, but like heathen also includes all other monotheistic religions that is not that whatever Christian denomination one subscribes to ! Then Heathen got appropriate by atheists cause it sounds edgy and cool I suppose ! If agnostic people really want a word imposed by the Church to describe them so bad , instead of the already logical terminology that describes them just fine ( agnostic atheists, agnostic deists/theists ) , I personally highly suggest the word Heretic !

[@RoundtheCauldron]

omg Ocean that intro. I've never heard the word "heathen" so many times in less than 15 seconds 😅 I've been watching your exchanges with this situation on Twitter and I'm glad you're talking about it here, too. Great video, as always!

[@CantonWhy]

Honestly had no idea it had a real use behind the way atheists kind of affectionately used it (I think as a way of sort of reducing the power it had as an actual insult?). I knew it was a pejorative at one time, at least, but wasn't aware of this entire subculture we may have ruffled. Sincere apologies to any heathens, I'll stop misusing the term.

[@jonathanbartlett1098]

I can't speak for other Heathens, but seeing as how the term can also apply to atheists by the common usage of the word, my opinion is that as long as you are not belittling, demeaning, or insulting another group, there is no problem with how you use the word. I sincerely appreciate any effort you make towards being respectful towards us, and I would bet that the other Heathens in my life will feel the same. Peace and Frith, friend

[@CantonWhy]

@@jonathanbartlett1098 good to know. I never had any ill will with the term, kind of liked it actually. But I had no idea it referred to a culture that might be struggling to even link up because atheists are using it as a synonym for their own perfectly fine label. I'm an atheist and don't have any desire to muddy the water for you all. Good luck to you!

[@jonathanbartlett1098]

@@CantonWhy Thank you, same to you. I see Atheists as potential allies to me and my Heathen community seeing as we share many of the same experiences and goals. Separation of church and state with no religion receiving special treatment, science education based on the most current scientific data available, and generally leaving people alone to believe or not believe whatever they want as long as no one is being harmed, just to name a few. Of course, I can't speak for every Heathen out there, and there are probably some that might disagree with me, although so far I have not heard of anyone demanding that science classes teach that mountains were formed from the bones of Ymir and that the oceans were made from their blood

[@bryanaperry8760]

Same. This was really eye-opening.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

@@jonathanbartlett1098 all of that is about devoting one's time and energy towards goals. The larger goal is to do everything you just stated, and generally keep people from restricting others due to their own beliefs. There is also a conversation to talk about base beliefs, where in many cases a religion or philosophy or ideology hardly affects how we act, but if the we just let people believe whatever they want without challenge we will never dig out of the first hole. In other words, I think it is nearly as important to get people away from belief with justification as it is to stop harmful actions. Concepts like supernature should be relegated to history books of things that people once believed.

[@granmar8166]

They should change the name! They dont dwell out in the heath, practicing heathenry, they support the slur -version because they think it means godless (still).

[@OceanKeltoi]

Don't click this link: www.redbubble.com/i/mug/Speak-Heathenly-by-OceanKeltoi/80036211.9Q0AD Special challenge to find the bonus box. The Pagan show Heathen Talk is on KZbin. See if you can find them using only the search functions on KZbin. There's ways to do it, but give it a spin and see if you can honestly tell me Talk Heathen isn't completely in the way of their algorithm.

[@HobbitWarrior]

Rolling the bones on Heathen Talk gave me list of their popular episodes, this and a bunch of stuff from someone called Matt Dillahunty and the Atheist Experience. Everything pagan or heathenry related came from the "For You" section. On a more fun note, rolling the algorithm dice on just Heathen netted me some cool vid's on a late 80's/early 90's thrash band I hadn't heard of before. So, bonus on that. \m/ >_< \m/

[@Nilsy1975]

I searched for Talk Heathen using both the all search and channel search settings. They were the top result for both searches. However, I think Talk Atheism or some derivative of that might be a better name for them.

[@OceanKeltoi]

@@Nilsy1975 Not Talk Heathen, Heathen Talk, an older pagan Podcast.

[@Nilsy1975]

@@OceanKeltoi Oh, your video thumbnail says "Talk Heathen Should Change Their Name" Your video title says "It's Time for Talk Heathen to Change Their Name"

[@OceanKeltoi]

@@Nilsy1975 This'll make more sense after the video comes out, but there's a pagan show called Heathen Talk that is a Heathen show that exists on youtube. If you try to find it, it illustrates a point that I'm making in the video.

[@mistyhaney5565]

As an atheist I completely agree. The fact that evangelical atheists constantly complain about Christains using dictionary definitions to claim they need to disprove the existence of a deity, and then want to do the same to another group strikes me as disingenuous at the very least. The fact that I disagree with your beliefs in no way entities me to attempt to strip you of identifying labels that provide access to your community members.

[@tomorbataar5922]

It's worse than appropriation. It's straight up a misnomer of your beliefs. The word heathen heavily implies you are still religious, you just dont follow the Abrahamic god. If you're an atheist you already have a well established name for it. It's called atheism. No need to be cringe about it.

[@mistyhaney5565]

@@tomorbataar5922 Very well stated. You are completely right.

[@ajhuredreams]

Agreed! These born-again atheists seem to be suffering from an acute case of latent Christianity. And they're not just hurting religious people; they're hurting their own cause. It was this dogmatic brand of atheist that slowed me down on my own path to atheism.

[@DbN-dftba]

I'm also an atheist (shoutout to Viced Rhino for sending me here via twitter) and I think your perspective is spot on. I definitely have used the term heathen self-referentially but always in a kind of tongue in cheek way to mock how religious christians now view me since my deconversion. Your point regarding the term's specific use by an organization is without flaw from where I sit. Any organization that claims to hold humanist values alongside their atheism and skepticism would be hypocritical and willfully ignorant at best to continue using the term after hearing this information.

[@ragingwitch8875]

This is a pot that needed to be stirred.

[@joenathan8059]

Well yeah the soups been burning for the last 5 minutes

[@grantcarpenter6685]

No, it isn't. I refer you to my comment just above yours.

[@redvonmunster3731]

@@grantcarpenter6685 yeah it is. I refer you to the comment you're crying about.

[@grantcarpenter6685]

@@redvonmunster3731 LOL! You must be hypersensitive yourself if you view my challenges to Ocean's logic as "crying." TalkHeathen isn't going to change its name, as there's no reason for it to do so. Get used to it.

[@redvonmunster3731]

@@grantcarpenter6685 here's the thing. You are crying and I honestly don't care about the name. 🤷‍♂️

[@TimelessTransience]

Your intro puns have once again received an exasperated sigh of enjoyment. Keep doing what you're doing, lol.

[@TheCalebhowell]

I'm really glad someone is addressing this. It's confusing as shit to people who are new to Heathenry.

[@marinakaiser7639]

Yes

[@marinakaiser7639]

I'm not new but i'm actually pagan witch with big interest in Norse Mithology 🙄😏

[@marinakaiser7639]

But i'm also heathen 🤔

[@coopergates9680]

@@marinakaiser7639 I've called people out a few times when they say "Hello fellow Heathens" when referring to people who, for the most part, don't subscribe to Heathenry. I am an infidel (and possibly heretic), but not a Heathen. Greek? Indian? Arabian? Egyptian? What makes Norse stand out?

[@marinakaiser7639]

@@coopergates9680 Don't ask me i like Norse mithology but i'm apagan witch.Ask Keltoi😁

[@racs0286]

I just went ahead and watched that video, jeez those guys were rude for no reason, and everytime the guy started to find his footing and actually explain something to them, they just interrupted and asked something else. You can't just ask multiple deep questions and expect to get an understanding of a concept in 9 minutes

[@AM-gm5jg]

That's atheism for you , just being rude to anyone holding a faith other than their atheistic totalitarian mindset

[@racs0286]

@@AM-gm5jg Well I wouldn't generalise all atheists like that, Sam Harris for instance is the exact opposite of these guys when it comes to debates and he's about as atheist as it gets. But these guys in particular have a real chip on their shoulder with their opinion of rationalising the world and the way they treat their opposition is quite detestable, to the point where it's a challenge to physically watch the video. But we should be educating ourselves on the way that our fellow man thinks, so we can have conversations that are actually productive.

[@racs0286]

@@blackbloom8552 Tbf I don't think many atheists are oppressed these days, unless they're living in countries where religion and state are inseparable, nor would I say they're oppressing anyone since that is quite a strong word for simply being a bit of a dickhead, but I understand where you're coming from, putting down someone for what they believe in, or in this case have faith/hope in, isn't the best manor of which to conduct yourself in. One of the problems with these types is that their main argument was "well if you don't believe in it why should I" which has so many problems with it could probably have a whole lecture dedicated to breaking that sentence down alone, but one thing is they're coming at it from as the last guy said, a totalitarian mindset, where everyone has to believe the same thing, and even a bit of a Christian mindset too where you have to believe in a god, or your religion just isn't valid.

[@racs0286]

@@blackbloom8552 And I totally agree; it's something this whole community is for, it's what this video was for, and it's what I'm commenting for, so things like this don't just go unheard of. But it's important what words we use when talking about things like this, the last thing any of us wants to do Is give them any intellectual ammo, since as of yet at least in the UK (and I'm guessing you're from the us but correct me if I'm wrong) we all have the same rights and protections in every way possible, and shouldn't paint a them vs us mentality as group identity isn't the most important thing we hold as an ideal (at least in the west but that seems to be changing in some corners)

[@wadelilim2565]

Another banger. Back when I was in the atheist salt mines, I used to watch Talk Heathen all the time, and I always found their name really... unsettling.

[@riffmagos]

Agreed. When I first searched for Heathen-based channels, Talk Heathen was at the top of the list. When i realised it was ACA, I couldn't hit unsubscribe quickly enough.

[@neetpride5919]

What's wrong with ACA other than the lefty slant?

[@riffmagos]

Um, they're Atheists and I'm not?

[@neetpride5919]

@@riffmagos oh. Is being a Heathen a religion now?

[@riffmagos]

@@neetpride5919 Which part of Norse Polytheism is difficult to grasp? =smirks=

[@LilithEveRain]

This!!! Yes!!! Thank you!!! I agree 100%! Basically because I ran across them some time ago and basically everything you said was what was going through my mind..

[@RedWinter88]

As an ex atheist that's a heathen and have been for awhile. I never understood why atheist use it? Just to be edgy? Probably

[@chinookcrafts]

It's owning a pejorative, as the term is commonly used today. When in present day Churches, pastors are decrying the "Heathen non-believers!" who will drag their parishioners to hell, it's a laughable notion to many atheists. To say, "Uh huh. Heathen. That's me," in eye-rolling mockery shouldn't be surprising at all.

[@hope-cat4894]

It's like how the Satanic Church doesn't actually believe in God or any angels. They're reclaiming a term used as an insult against them (people thinking atheists are somehow satanists) and the idea that not believing in God is somehow "evil."

[@occult_agent]

My breakfast starts with you and I end day while listening to you Ocean Keltoi.

[@TheKitsuneCavalier]

I find it hypocritical of anyone who believes that sports teams who's names are based on Native Americans should re-brand themselves, but believes that Talk Heathen shouldn't have to.

[@Le_GingerBeardMan]

Oh that’s a good point

[@TheKitsuneCavalier]

Thank you.

[@dissapoinsquid1965]

Somehow misread the title and didn't notice the thumb nail and watched the entire thing waiting for to talk about the practice of heathens changing there names when they convert. Lol

[@DoomedPaladin]

As a Wiccan-discordian, blezz you sir. Hail Eris!

[@SteviiLove]

Talk Athiest sounds just fine. For people that love to tout how reasonable and logical they are, arguing over such a simple fix seems pointless to me.

[@vixii_spl]

Talk Godless if they wanna keep edge, maybe?

[@FaiaHalo]

Why being being logical and reasonable (whatever that might mean to you) would not allow you to "argue over such a simple fix"... Being an Atheist just means lacking a belief in god or gods... Discussing names, or anything else is not something you're prohibited from doing LMAO I'm an atheist and I believe in faeries, so? This kind of fallacious argument just sounds condescending tbh

[@Aging_Casually_Late_Gamer]

It might be because changing the name for a religious group could be seen as losing another fight with a religious group and thus the most reasonable thing to do is to not change.

[@ELCinWYO]

Talk Atheist would be more appropriate. The guy is so dismissive of everyone else, though, and listening to him is quite aggravating. There's no reason for him to debate anyone because he refuses to acknowledge that someone else might have a point.

[@ritawilbur7343]

Seriously, it just seems more clear. As someone who is not a heathen or an athiest, but a Christian (in other words, an outsider to both groups) I would assume that a show titled "Talk Heathen" would be about some kind of heathen/pagan/neo-pagan group. I would certainly NOT expect it to be about atheism.

[@FrustratedAtheist]

I got a fellow atheist to agree that it was reasonable for atheists to stop using heathen by saying that we have a term for atheists, and every other group of people who use heathen, and that since heathens practice heathenry, the name should go to them. As far as Talk Heathen is concerned, if they want to keep that name by using the dictionary definition, then include other forms of heathen, otherwise they are further pushing the narrative that heathen is synonymous with atheism, when that's simply not the case.

[@davidjb20010]

I don't have anything against being an Atheist, I think it's a pretty logical train of thought to end up at. But I feel like a decent portion of Atheists lack a perspective on religion other than their experience with Christianity and other monotheistic religions. I'm under the impression that many Heathens don't exactly disrespect the atheist perspective since our gods aren't playing "invisible gaslighting dom" with us and were free to question, often leading to some enriching experiences. I often perceive Odin as a bit of a skeptic anyway. But when Atheists laughingly dismiss polytheists, I think it's a cop out for not actually knowing what your arguing against and wanting to seem smart.

[@FaiaHalo]

THANK YOU!! As an Atheist, I completely agree! I've seen so many condescending comments on this comment section but yours really caught my eye because I think it's so fair. Some Atheists I see disagreeing with polytheist like you said more often than not have little to no idea about the beliefs of others aside from Christians. Which is why I read all of the Qur'an and I'm in the process of reading sruti and smriti. I realize this is not even all of the sacred texts of all known and believed religions worldwide and throughout history, but I don't want to just talk without actually knowing what other people believe. Which is exactly what I did when I was a Catholic and thought that other religions were only Hinduism and Buddhism (since I thought Muslims and Jews were just subdivisions of Christians - yep... That's exactly how arrogant and ignorant Catholics were/are of others' beliefs...). Excuse my English if I made any mistake, it's not my first language.

[@coopergates9680]

@@FaiaHalo Polytheism makes more sense than monotheism anyway, especially the omni omni God, which is easy to show does not exist, and there were polytheists at the time Christianity started growing calling Christians out because their God wasn't detectable at all, while the polytheists were ascribing spirits or other supernatural attributes to physical things such as statues or sculptures.

[@FaiaHalo]

@@AspynDotZip you're absolutely right, my friend. Ever since my deconvertion, I was able to learn sooo much about other beliefs and the more than 1000 gods that people around the world believe in. It's super interesting! Specially about my native beliefs, since here in Latin America, Spanish colonizers forced Christianity onto the polytheistic natives...

[@Anthro006]

I wholeheartedly agree and have thought this same thing for some time, especially in the light of increasing heathen and pagan perspectives represented on KZbin by more numerous creators!

[@dariusguilford7200]

Excellent video. Your arguments are structured, well reasoned and clearly presented.

[@OceanKeltoi]

Glad you think so!

[@elijahv.1484]

I classify as more of an eclectic pagan so I don't classify as a Heathen but I completely agree that they should change the name

[@Supermanrs]

From one eclectic pagan to another there is nothing wrong with being eclectic. I have used the term heathen in the past to help people to understand my beliefs. But i mostly just tell people that i am pagan. But it also doesn't come up much as i don't have any friends or family members that are pagan.

[@sadeejones5091]

I agree. I think if I would have found that when I was first branching out I would have been scared off and never found Odin like I did.

[@kylethewolfify]

This was AMAZING!!!! Thank you ^_^

[@DrenHatamata]

I'm Here from a twitter tread earlier today. I'm glad to know this. Having this understanding will help alot. And I think a lot of us put to much stock in the dictionary definitions of things.

[@zyravespera2830]

Excellent video!

[@potatopotahto4500]

How did you get that mjolnir next to your name??!

[@OceanKeltoi]

@@potatopotahto4500 Channel memberships.

[@CroatiaSurvival]

Atheist and a regular watcher of Talk Heathen here. While I agree that they often use Thor, Zeus and other non abrahamic gods in their arguments, I’ve never felt it’s purpose was to mock the belief in those gods. I always felt like it was a tool to prompt someone to examine their beliefs. That being said, I did notice that they dismiss pagans(mainly wicca) pretty quickly. Maybe it’s because of their lack of experience with those belif systems but not really sure. Regarding the name, I agree that they should change it. It doesn’t represent what it’s about at all. IfI remember correctly, they did a poll on their community tab about the name recently and the majority were in favor of keeping the name. “Talk infidel” has a nice ring to it. Maybe you should call in this Sunday and raise this concern to their audience live.

[@ashizzard1817]

wicca should be dismissed it was made by an old cis white dude from the mid 20th century and it just steals shit from other cultures.

[@BlackFlagHeathen]

What really irks me is that they use a Mjolnir in their logo, almost like they’re trying to attract and convert Norse pagans. Who says atheists don’t preach or proselytize?

[@krispalermo8133]

" .. Amen .. ! "

[@jamesbradleysears7188]

They do go far beyond a simple "lack of belief", into active belief in the non-existence of the gods, & further that this belief makes them superior.

[@andreastewart177]

?? Heathen talk used one, That was a (bad) Heathen podcast, not athiest. Talk Heathen and the ACA does not use Mjolnir

[@mikkelfraskui]

@@jamesbradleysears7188 When did they say this? I've probably listened to most, and they generally clarify that they hold a weak atheist position

[@jamesbradleysears7188]

Are you asking me when did they ever mock religious beliefs & those who hold them? Are we talking about the same thing?

[@jmatt1974]

I love your videos. They are so informative.

[@tasia8love]

thank you, great video

[@Eibarwoman]

The more I think about it, the more you're right about the name. While at one time, Pagans and atheists were both considered the same that point has long past.

[@CapriUni]

As someone who sometimes claims the identity of "Crippled Queer" (depending on the current company; I won't speak those term aloud with people who are triggered by them). I understand that certain joy of reclaiming names for yourself. *But* -- you lose that privilege if you use a term with pride for yourself while simultaneously insulting others with that identity. You can't have it both ways.

[@OceanKeltoi]

Very well said.

[@awitelin]

I have always avoided calling myself heathen specifically because it felt "taken" by cheeky atheists already, and therefore would be confusing. But I also struggle with what to call myself because "germanic paganism" is an answer that just means more questions and explaining. My sister once asked if I could point her at what she should google to learn more about my faith and I was at a loss, ended up giving her a broad answer about some different youtube channels she could watch to get an idea with a warning that googling could end her up in a folkish site with a bad representation and... she never bothered asking me again.

[@joshuamontalbano1875]

Can you make a video specifically on Disney's attempt to trademark/copyright the pantheon beyond the likeness of just the characters within marvel and their cease and desist letters content creators and people who make products have been getting

[@LiEnby]

Have they been dumb enough to C&D people who are making idols of them?

[@lancekidd8794]

Lol the intro it certainly illustrates the diversity of the word lol

[@NieroshaiTheSable]

I honestly agree. Is there a petition? I'd sign it.

[@rileyfuckingrifle]

A petition is a really good idea.

[@francofernandes2006]

"Heathen around doing heathen shit" is now one of my catchphrases. Thanks, Ocean.

[@taliomerelli6298]

As an atheist . . . I agree. Heathens should have an easier time finding each other, and if all that needs done to help is changing the name of a show, then that's a really easy way to help people. As a side note, I did find myself of the past using examples like "people back in the day thought lightning came from Zeus", which now that I have a friend who follows the traditions of that pantheon (they follow a specific deity of the pantheon, not sure how to best phrase that type of practice other than "Pagan"), I realize not only how crass and insensitive that was, but how it may not even be fully accurate to the beliefs of the time. And it's your channel that I have to thank for helping me be more considerate of others' religious beliefs

[@aleisterbeaumont8068]

Bam upvoted

[@Vivi2372]

This entire debate has had one thing going for it: it's an excellent microcosm for why I, an atheist, feel no sense of community with the large majority of the atheist community. Excellent video as always.

[@Vivi2372]

Also want to add that I'd much rather watch a pluralist heathen call in show than, well, any atheist call in shows these days. Might help to fight some of the active religious bigotry in the atheist community if they were exposed to more than christianity. Not that most of them would watch it.

[@IAmValenwind]

came for the heathen content, stayed for the puns :D

[@apheliondriff9694]

This is the reason I just say Norse Pagan when I'm asked my religious preference.. There's so much misunderstanding , lack of knowledge or care of interest from the uninformed and typically most don't care to educate themselves to better understand. Thank you Ocean, for the constant relevant content. Hail to you as well brother.

[@j3tztbassman123]

The lack of puns was predicted by a disturbance. My suggestion for that show: a discoursi (no talk)

[@KaiHenningsen]

Interesting. Before hearing about these terms from OK, I've always understood "heathen" and "pagan" as Christian terms for (all) non-Christians, and I believe I heard them used that way from Christians long before I heard them used by Atheists.

[@garretttv1000]

Thanks!

[@JoshuaAlvarado307397]

I love all of your content, and it has been an amazing lense I've used in my journey into Heathenry (not sure I that's spelled correctly), but I have to say I like it when you slip in a curse word or two(like you did in the beginning). I don't know why but it adds a little spice. Anyway, thanks for all the amazing videos, and I totally agree with you, talk heathen needs to change their name to something a little more descriptive of their content.

[@brianketaren5132]

Awesome video

[@Sakuraclone99k]

Fantastic video, Ocean! I'm glad you touched on this as a video. You, ExCultBaby, Jen, Wolf, Ali, and others had a fantastic discussion that really shed light on this before. I also appreciate the full teardown of the dictionary argument. I remember running into many who brought out the definition as protection. It's sad that Heathen Talks is so buried now.

[@wilddoguk]

Heathen literally translates as 'people of the Heather' Heather being a plant in the more rural northern England / Scotland region.

[@stairwayunicorn4861]

i'm curious if there is any relation between discordianism and the chaos magic section of ones local new-age book store

[@jonnyeldritch]

There is an overlap yes. But to be fair Discordianism overlaps with a number of new age beliefs including Thelema and Sigil Magicks.

[@irelegion9766]

Always great to see Heathens heathening around in the heavening. That didn't end right. 🤣 As always, very much agree. If it's such a small thing, why are they fighting against it so hard?

[@arcanezedreaper793]

Interesting video good content as always.

[@XanSteel]

As a fledgling in the Norse (Pagan, Heathen, Polytheist? I still don’t fully understand it, but learning) but I’m glad I haven’t come across them yet. I’ve pretty much binged your videos a few times, and still seeking other sources that would be considered trustworthy. Especially after having left the christian faith a long time ago.

[@shadetreader]

Stuff like this is why I distanced myself from other non-believers. Most vocal atheists in this country are basically Republicans who don't go to church. Decades ago the community focused on critiquing the hypocrisy of conservative Christianity, for the obvious reasons of its dominant position in and destructive influence on American culture, but today it's used as an excuse to be smug creeps (like my father was...)

[@oneeyedwilly8139]

This is the first I've heard of them. I guess what they do or call themselves doesn't diminish my belief or bother me unless I let it. I do agree with you and see the point for you making this video though.

[@violetflower1100]

"As we heathen around" lol

[@john80944]

The way I go down this rabbit hole of Heathenry is through this channel and other channel on history or magick. And if I was looking for a way to study Heathen religion and I found someone in that clip, I will abandon my study, at least until I can't stop my own curiosity. So yeah. I will fully support them to change their name. That clip is truly horrible for everyone.

[@dravenamor6052]

I believe I watched an earlier video of yours where you were trying to have a conversation with that guy that's on the talk heathen show in the clip that you played. If I remember correctly he was just as arrogant and rude to you then as he was in the clip to the guest. It boils me over that these particular type of atheists equate atheism with some sort of perceived superior intelligence in which they believe that they can mock, and have the right to do so at that, people of any faith.

[@HrothgarsOwn]

Fantastic points- articulated a lot of what I was feeling in those exchanges while being unable to phrase it myself XD

[@NieroshaiTheSable]

Premiere must be acting up. Unless you're a patron or something I'm guessing?

[@HrothgarsOwn]

@@NieroshaiTheSable nothing is wrong- I get my internet through a portal to the future opened by Sumerian sorceresses.

[@paulschumacher4308]

I'm going to go do my Heathen Shit.

[@daltonmortimer7735]

In short some people conflated Hethan and Heretic and therefore thought it was a good idea to call atheists Hethans

[@krispalermo8133]

? .. Heretic .. ? Catholics and Protestants regard each other as .. heretics.

[@benjaminbruno6812]

I've found the phrase 'godless heathens' confusing since we have more gods then the Christians, but if atheists are using the name then it makes sense 🤣

[@TheMalitias]

I'd be kinda confused if I went to restaurant with the label "pasta", but the only thing they would ever serve was bolognese.

[@dustinchambers4172]

Is being a nondenomenational pagan a thing? I have no clue if i spelled that shit right lol.

[@JariDawnchild]

Yes, being a nondenominational pagan is a thing. :-)

[@kaiklose6172]

That would fall under the lable of just Pagan or more accurately: Eclectic Pagan

[@LiEnby]

I mean does paganism even really have denominations?

[@SumNutOnU2b]

Hail Eris! Always good to see something spreading the faith. As a lapsed but still favorably disposed DiscordIan Pope, an aspiring Prophet of the Unnamed Divinity, a student of Hermetic Alchemy, insincere Taoist, and practicing Quaker, I've also noticed the recent-ish trend of Atheists to usurp the term "Heathen". Like you, I have found it mildly disconcerting but not generally worth arguing about. I am glad to see your video on it. As an actual "Heathen" you are better situated to voice objections and I would encourage you to continue to do so. The only other option would seem to be abandoning the moniker and letting them have it, which seems patently unfair. I've never followed either the "Talk Heathen" nor "Heathen Talk" podcasts, but the similarity of names definitely implies that they may have chosen that backward phrasing intentionally being aware of the possible confusion. All the more reason they should change it.

[@raphmaster23]

You hear about that one clothing company that copyrighted the term Heathen?

[@greenman5255]

Personally, I've always used the term "heathen" to refer to someone that is a slob and has almost no rules to structure their life. I'm not saying that is THE definition...just my definition. I've never tied the term to paganism, or atheism.

[@tristanalain9239]

An interesting perspective. I never even though of this issue before tbh, due to lack of knowledge... This is a very well reasoned argument, especially on the optics angle, in short I agree. Also i am but out of the loop, can someone please tell me what shake up happened with the hosts?

[@Vivi2372]

Vi and Eric no longer host the show due to some creative differences with the ACA on the direction of the show. No one's talked specifically about any of the behind the scenes reasons so far though.

[@dianeteeter6650]

I've been a born again Heathen for 35 years.

[@1inaMaxillion]

I love that i was able to follow and understand the content discussed, but it took me back to testing times when the questions were: Some Agnostics are Heathens, Some Heathens are Pegans, Are all Agnostics Pegans?.... Very very amusing as well. Gratitude Always 💛💛💛💛

[@HolyCowAndHolyChao]

Wow, Talk Heathen made themselves look pretty ignorant with their comments on Discordianism. There's no fundamental metaphysical disagreement between atheists and Discordians. They pretty much just showcased their total lack of humor and imagination.

[@__Andrew]

ugh, this is so dumb. Its like arguing that the Salvation Army should change their name because they are not actually an army, they have no military, and people trying to google "army" to enlist get the Salvation Army instead and they cant find links to the real army. If T.H. wants to change, fine. If they dont, fine too. But this is legit the stupidest thing to argue when its obvious the colloquially used "heathen" was meant as a way to draw in Christian viewers. Its just a fun catchy name, relax. Arguing that "actual" self identifying heathens cant figure out how to use google and thus get confused is not a good argument. This WHOLE THING just reiterates the trope that internet atheists (and i guess "heathens" too) will argue about anything.

[@NorthernNorthdude91749]

It's not just a catchy name. Its a problem because it bears the name of OUR religion for an anachronistic show. It needs to change. No debate to be had on this.

[@__Andrew]

@@NorthernNorthdude91749 lol, please. As its been pointed out its just a name, it does not keep people from finding "heathen" content you want to view that is not the show. This is as dumb as forcing the word "church" out of non-Christian things because it might upset the Catholics or something. Or as other's have joked this guy needs to remove the word "Ocean" from his name because he is not really a body of water. Are you really a wombat? How dare you take the name of a real animal! No debate; you are either a wombat or not! Ya'll need to chill. The fact that so many of you are this upset over something this stupid and small kinda just illustrates that _all_ religions are dumb. Not just the Judeo-Christian ones we are so used to. Stop being cringy, it only hurts how others will view you.

[@leviplatzer9979]

Do you have a podcast ocean keltoi? If not what do you recommend?

[@jonnyeldritch]

*laughs in discordian heathen*

[@OceanKeltoi]

While i was reading the Principia, i was kinda like.... wait I mostly agree with this.

[@jonnyeldritch]

@@OceanKeltoi Honestly Discordianism was my pathway to becoming a Heathen. If you like Principia give Black Iron Prison a read too. A totally darker and overall more cynical take on Disco.

[@jonnyeldritch]

Also, if you enjoy fiction The Illuminatus! trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea is a decidedly irreverent and sophomoric take on the lore presented in PD. A fun trilogy to read through but almost as challenging as Finnegan's Wake.

[@stoneknight865]

Hey ocean just want to ask you a little question is it okay if I still watch WoO as long as I heavily filter it

[@OneAngryPagan616]

What would ye say to mine own path, Sceadu Wita?

[@artkoenig9434]

I share your descriptive stance toward dictionaries. Dr. Johnson called lexicographers harmless drudges. Let others quibble.

[@Keyumiz]

Anyone know where the clips from the intro come from? If it's a show or movie, I'd really like to check it out.

[@OceanKeltoi]

Much of it is from Jason and the Argonauts.

[@Keyumiz]

@@OceanKeltoi Nice! Thank you. I'm definitely gonna check it out.

[@candymanfam8142]

I need a "Heathen" word counter in this video 😂😂

[@leviethaan]

I though discordia was a place where people who have rather difficult and complex thoughts gather to mock and mute each other while also being disturbingly horny

[@MakCurrel]

One of the big problem with (us) atheists is, that the thing atheists have in common is a lag of something. So we don't have a common third unlike people that believe in something, that that can share. Also I agree with this video. That the term Heathen is not including atheism, there should be some kind of believe to be classified as heathen.

[@livetowin8100]

Yeah we need to start clarifying what terms like Heathen mean so that way confusing shit like this doesn’t keep happening, I feel bad for new comers trying to get into the community when things like this happens

[@Alphqwe]

I think that it's a poke into the egos of the people who don't know what a heathen is. As such I don't have a problem with it.

[@ivar2506]

I know of Forn Siðr but haven't seen anyone talk about or use the term