It's Time To Smash The "True Timeline" And Ditch The Titans... And 10.2 Gives Us The Perfect Chance

[@ihaveanunorigionalname]

0:26 La-plahh-ses demon is wrong and this is 101 quantum phy. sorry you cant know the position and momentum of any object with certainty. Mr heisenberg has a uncertainty principle he wants to talk to you about. tali... stick to what you know and keep off Wikipedia

[@TaliesinEvitel]

Hi! I literally say towards the end of the video ( 20:11 ) that Laplace is wrong and disproved by quantum mechanical irreversability. Building up to that is kind of the whole point of the video. It's called rhetoric and narrative structure, friend. Look it up on wikipedia

[@bleyjo]

Helps when you watch the whole video before commenting so you don't look like an utter twat. Tali points out that the original theory is flawed and doesn't work because it's been debunked.

[@Mytwistedthoughts25]

Errrm ACKSHUALLY moment

[@awsomesauceboi]

​@@TaliesinEvitelIt could still be correct with the De Broglie-Brohm interpretation of quantum mechanics, but unfortunately it's a bit out of vogue at the minute

[@Cyfaeras]

@@TaliesinEvitel whilst this guy is a dweeb for not finishing the video, he does make one good point: Laplace is pronounced la-plass, not lap-lace (t. physicist)

[@roberta5245]

I choose to believe the whelpings took those rocks to make it so millions of players don't have to farm Icecrown Citadel to get the mount.

[@wolfshanze5980]

Screw those whelps... after 500 attempts, I now have undead Invincible. If those whelps have thier way, I will lose my mount from my stable... forever. Don't you see... the true timeline must be preserved. Millions must die so I can have my mount!

[@Meier8Link]

@@wolfshanze5980 as a mount hunter I understand your point XD

[@Time_Goblin]

My poops have been so lonely without your regular content! So EXCITED 🎉🎉

[@pineappleshoe]

Hey I'm pooping too!

[@chrisfinoc6236]

Same!

[@robertbrown3054]

LMAO. Had to comment, cuhz I too, am dropping a shitter. Holy fucking moly.

[@pineappleshoe]

Taliesen: makes super interesting video. Internet: talks about poops. What a time to be alive.

[@kayapiggott1584]

You gotta be shitting me

[@TomBortels]

I assume the reason for the Arthas pebble quest isn't because the choice is between "Lich King kills millions" and "happy bunnies and flowers" - it's between "Lich king kills millions and is defeated" versus "Lich king kills everyone because he won and that's that alternate mindless undead timeline we keep running into". Maybe the death of his horse somehow *tempered* Arthas to be less of an ugly monster than he could otherwise have been. And maybe dealing with Arthas was a big part of creating the heroes needed to handle some other unrelated threat like the Legion.

[@stepanbalcarik]

Death of Invincible was one of many steps of Arthas becoming Lich King, and then being able to be defeated, if not, Nerzhul would still rule from atop the Icecrown doing hiss stuff under the Legions orders.

[@connornunley966]

@@stepanbalcarik I think you mean under the JAILER'S orders. /s

[@Queldonus]

The raid on ice Crown Citadel is the first time that the between the alliance and the Horde actively interrupted dealing with a more important problem. Ultimately it didn’t let Arthas win, but it did waste time and resources. I can’t help but wonder if that event needs to happen as one of the early signs war between the alliance and the hoard has to end or eventually will cause the loss of everyone and everything

[@weirdalfan001]

There is an argument that the scourge play a pivotal part in destroying the burning legion.

[@kingdomheartsguy44]

I still can't believe the titans put chemicals in the egg water that turn the freaking dragons ordered!

[@naanless]

can't wait to raise baby Azeroth through minigames once they finally hatch

[@SentriSable]

"Another Azeroth made it to the water"

[@sepsam4556]

Lmao yes, all these tiny minigames and quests he's talking about and I"m like we did what? Lol

[@Gunshow0]

pls god no!@@SentriSable

[@SeJoHu]

Tamagotchi titan.

[@tvilkerino]

We already broke the true timeline.. Or Chromie did, when she went back in time to save Nozdormu becoming Murozond

[@warmwaterpenguin]

Is that accurate? Murozond leads a flight that is a constant threat to the titan-ordained true timeline. The long-thought-inevitability of his rise wasn't necessarily part of the true timeline plan but an outside factor the titans' bronze dragon servants were struggling to successfully contain, proof that certain semi-inevitable things AREN'T part of the titan plan and that the 'True' timeline isn't true or natural at all, just tightly curated.

[@nutcrackit7396]

I don't think so. We still have not seen the "true end times" as murozond said. At his death murozond also mentions aman'thul. I think there is another event that will make nozdormu truly turn from the titans.

[@Meier8Link]

@@nutcrackit7396 AAAAAH bless you I'm not the only one to remmember the last speech of Murozond, I think wince this moment and in particulary with DF we are going to this true end of time one day and I really hope this is something hard, tragical, awfull and sad ^^ Well I think that the fact we save him, all the quest with Eternus, is some event that make Nozdormu turn form the tian, or may be we gonna see it at the end of DF and may be, I hope, one day he gonna became Murozond, and we gonna be on his side this time, against the Titan

[@wodmarach]

It would be interesting if Noz NOT becoming Muro was made the point of timeline break. That the bronze dragons realise you don't have to change everything like the infinites believe...

[@DecayedPony]

Neat idea!

[@AtillaDaPun]

I'd actually really like that if they made that the story line!!

[@sashasaaed3468]

I’ve thought it has to be this cause otherwise what the heck was that whole story line how are they explaining away selling the muruzond thing as necessary

[@bernatvillalbablanch9912]

I thought of a similar thing not so long ago: "What I would love is that, in this expansion, the infinites acomplish their goal, and Nozdormu falls. But we do not give up on him. We fight for him, defiying the true timeline of the titans. The bronzes break their oaths to the timewaves but for a good reason, leading to a timeline where Murozond becomes Nozddormu again (probably changed and not beeing the aspect, akin to Ysera) and the infinite dragonflight is not created. Now we don't live in the true timline of the titans, we live in a timeline where we forge our own future with our actions. This constitutes the betrayal of Alextraza profetized by Zakajz and perpares the field of distrust that has to be resolved with the titans and the keepers."

[@monkeysk8er33]

That's the likely setup here, yes. They're showing us, slowly over time, Nozdormu's descent to madness, so that his ACTUAL turn to Murozond makes more sense. This undoing by Chrome is step one in the shattering of the time ways. Nozdormu will have to shatter the time ways to attempt to set things right. In order to undo everything that led here, Nozdormu will have to literally undo everything the Bronze has done.

[@TheDeekins]

the production value of that intro was absolutely bonkers, you're at the height of your powers king

[@stealthington]

So on the Arthas bit. We've had to do "bad things" to keep Arthas on track before, and the track he was on led in the direction of the Jailer (after the big retcon). As far as I remember from the very loose Shadowlands story around that, he was a failure as regards the whole 'Death comes for the soul of your world' bit. And maybe that's the point? That with Arthas plugging away as the Lich King, the Jailer let some other potential plot fall by the wayside that would have worked, and we'd have 'lost'. Or theory 2, maybe having Arthas lead the Scourge kept it from spinning off in too many directions to be controlled and kept Azeroth from being a Death world. Just a couple of ideas.

[@Ryan-sn3uo]

Since the original Lich King was Ner'zhul, maybe he would have found another champion that was not Arthas, and that champion that he ended up picking may have been a bigger disaster than Arthas turned out to be. Therefore, Arthas may have been the lesser of two evils.

[@ReikaLady]

It was implied in Wrath that some part of the good hearted Arthas still existed in the Lich King which caused him to hold back.

[@deployed246]

I've got a big tangled theory over the importance of Arthas becoming the Lich King, and it doesn't rely on any of the Shadowlands lore. Very briefly, note that between The Frozen Throne and Wrath of the Lich King, he was consolidating his power in Northrend and the impact of the Undead was limited at that time, not becoming an issue until he awakened, meaning he wasn't an issue, or even a "player" when we needed to focus of the Burning Legion during TBC. He also ultimately failed. As Ryan said, we may not have been so lucky with someone else as the Lich King, and we also _may_ have been worse off without anyone claiming the helm and Frostmourne. Remember, at the time of Arthas' defeat, there always had to be a Lich King, and with Bolvar at the Helm, things were mostly contained again, and wilfully. There's always something to latch on to to justify a path, the question is, can we go back far enough to change that path to not only prevent the evils, but to also not fail with the good. I think Arthas becoming the Lich King was potentially a best case scenario _if_ we start with Ner'zhul needing to bind with someone, but is there a solution further back? Like removing Ner'zhul from the equation in the first place. What is the knock-on effect from there?

[@ReikaLady]

@deployed246 Thing is if we keep going back, we risk undoing everything we have. We'd also be ignoring Arthas's choices. Even though he was crazed with grief and rage at Stratholme taking up Frostmourne was his choice. It was a terrible thing, but he knowingly made that choice.

[@deployed246]

@@ReikaLady Exactly. Its the ripple effect most time travel stories hinge around, often causing them to trip up over themselves. Whether it's intentional or not, the Infinite Dragonflight's short-sightedness could even be seen as a side-effect of emotions entangled with stewarding time. It is common sense, even to them, that you risk break so much of the timeline by trying to alter things too far away from the event itself. For example, they don't try to stop Medivh by preventing Aegwynn from being passively possessed by Sargeras, they try to stop him in the moment he is opening the Dark Portal. No Ner'zhul means no Legion invasion triggering the Third War, meaning the Orcs are still in the Eastern Kingdoms. Medivh never instructs Thrall to head west to Kalimdor. Night Elves never join the Alliance and a different type of conflict between Alliance and Horde breaks out and events like those in TBC, Cata, Mists etc still come to pass, but the armies involved are heavily diminished. While that doesn't automatically mean failure, as there are always other solutions, the continued ripple effect may lead to hard to see futures. Untested futures. Chaotic Disorder. Just like too much order, its a dangerous thing.

[@MegaChickenfish]

I still think it's tied to that the ultimate goal for the titans is to have that world soul *born.* And think on that: *Have we ever seen Planet Aman'thul? Planet Sargeras? Planet Eonar?* No. Never. Only one planet that we've ever seen has had its world soul "hatched" from the so called "egg" of the planet's crust. *Argus.* Blizzard: You want a world revamp? *We'll give you a goddamn world revamp.* Magni: You did it, champions! Azeroth is stronger than ever! *She's ready to hatch!*

[@ReikaLady]

Though to be fair Argus got wrecked by the Legion so his birth may have been twisted. We've seen what they do to worlds.

[@maruraba1478]

imagine if the crack stated at the sword and went global. cata but way worse. maybe our artifacts slowed the cracking but iridikron. who knows

[@phillipnowicki2514]

This is why Iridikron is the best villain in recent expansions: he makes sense. The best written villains always make you hesitate and think about what they are saying and make you wonder “are they right?”

[@reptilizer]

The Jailer's grand plot as described by Sylvanas also made sense up until the end of the Sylvanas fight cinematic revealed that it involved dominating all life, including her, to accomplish it.

[@wolfshanze5980]

Iridikron is all part of the Jailer's master plan!

[@Meier8Link]

They are right !

[@BattleF08]

I mean, to be fair, so far the Timeline the Titans pursue have seen us overcome all cosmic threats, have a habitable world, despite its natural state, seems better than all the other timelines we've seen. And included the Titans themselves dying. So, so far it doesn't seem all that selfish.

[@TheGuykilla]

Ehhh idk I always assumed the Titans were controlling the timeline anyway, in order to have Azeroth become a Titan herself rather than a void corrupted world soul- the assumption being that if the void lords got hold of Azeroth’s soul then they’d use it for universal control and destruction. The death of billions/trillions across the cosmos rather than a few thousand on Azeroth herself. A small price to pay in the eyes of the titans.

[@AfroMidwestern]

The only problem with that is it seems like the Titans barely wanted life to exist in the first place.

[@austinsebben1402]

I could see the quest to make sure Arthas became the Lich King being necessary, because it was Arthas’s recklessness and other character flaws that allowed us to defeat him, that Ner’zuhl didn’t have. You constantly meet Arthas in Northrend, but because he wants you to admit that he’s right, he doesn’t kill you when he should have, he wanted you to get stronger and stronger so he could get the maximum amount of super powerful people to flip to his side, which was his downfall. King Terenas’s soul escaping the blade was the one who resurrected us from being actually dead and being able to finally defeat the Lich King, which wouldn’t have happened if Arthas hadn’t killed him

[@Jerao]

This format is fantastic! Yall should use it more going forward.

[@Bysentenial]

Nozdormu has changed time at least once already in canon. The war of the anciants trilogy, the blue dragonflight was ENTIRELY wiped but kranus put a few eggs in cenarius' grove and nozy was like I'll allow it

[@paulleimbach3198]

Excellent video. Didnt care about the topic, but the intro, the excellent music choice and the way you set it up relating it to our philosophy in our world got me hooked. Kudos and greetings from belgium

[@LPcrazy_88]

What I think is that I freakn LOVE these philosophical deep dives into the story! I don't play WoW enough to have an informed opinion, but I love the idea of breaking from basically worshiping the Titans and seeing them as they are: flawed beings like the rest of us just with more power.

[@Meier8Link]

This is what they are "flawed beings like the rest of us just with more power" they aren't God's or something else it's mentionned in one of the Uldaman book

[@TheFalrinn]

Something you didn't mention was the Tyr quest from 10.1.5 showed premonitions of each of the original Dragon Aspects turning on Tyr or at least his vision for Azeroth, including Alexstraza. While these visions were selectively edited to better screw with Tyr, like leaving out that Ysera would be cleansed of the Nightmare in death and have a daughter to take up the role of the Dreamer, they were also too accurate to simply be a lucky guess. To me, this means that Alexstraza is at least going to have a serious confrontation with Tyr at Vyranoth's urging. This could very well be a situation where Alexstraza declares her intent to no longer follow the vision of the Pantheon to the letter.

[@jcoales1]

It's a good job we are restoring Tyr to reset the titan plan .... oh wait

[@lycos94]

''our way at all costs'' really does fit a force called ''order'' quite a lot

[@MiatheAsura]

If I'm not mistaken, the reason arthas needs to become the lich King and kill millions, is similar to why bolvar put this helmet on after him. To keep the scourging in check. If are they didn't put on the helm, The scourge would have wiped out azeroth *entirely* instead of *only* killing a few million...

[@NoEnvyNoFear1]

I think the Titans are gonna be the last raid of World of Warcraft, where we are fighting to keep our planet and the Titans just want their egg to hatch and don't care that we live on it. And then maybe they will do a sequel that takes place some time in the future, and that's when we get intergalactic space wars for real!

[@Queldonus]

World of Starcraft confirmed.

[@petreion9960]

I really do hope that the lore takes this turn, to go away from titans and align with other forces, or somehow become neutral dipping its toes in every element - as it's doing now with all the elven civilizations ^^

[@MegaChickenfish]

10:54 Wait a goddamn holy are you serious- *I recognize that silhouette.* *Long have we sought entry into this realm! To think we have a mortal to thank for giving us our foothold. Your service will be remembered!*

[@howell721]

What if Nozdorumu never becomes Murozond because he changes enough to not need to do so?

[@colbyallman]

The loop is closed.

[@KWRayleigh]

the very fact that Murozond exists debunks the idea that Nozdorumu wont become Murozond.

[@Meier8Link]

so he gonna lead Infinit and Bronze ? hmm interesting

[@Gin-wh6xq]

If this is true, then Moruzond/Nozdormu sacrificed himself in End Time and he sent all those agents of the infinite dragoflight to fight us in the past to basically condition us for whatever is to come. Neat.

[@spider-queen]

I really appreciate these videos because they make me remember the bigger picture. Often I get too wrapped up in playing the game that a lot of the disparate quests, ideas, and content becomes too separated and I don't really have the chance to let it all steep and think about it, so you wrapping up all the theories, projections, and concepts is such a huge help for getting more out of the story.

[@Sithicas]

I look forward to the inevitable Sheridan speech at the end of the expansion :P

[@designerwookiee]

My theory for why "our timeline" is the "one true timeline" has to do with the balance of cosmic powers upon Azeroth itself, and the question of what kind of entity is Azeroth, really? As we've seen from the other timelines, most timelines are dominated by a singular cosmic power such as Fel or Void. As we saw when we escaped The Maw for the first time in The Shadowlands, we somehow bear the essence of "The First Ones". Something that is yet unexplained, as we only got bits of lore in Shadowlands. for context, I would need direct you to the [Firim in Exile] in-game books found in Zereth Mortis, specifically Part 7 and the Epilogue. From Firmin in Exile, Part 7: "The six forces that pointed toward a seventh, and yet denied it. For a long while I considered this seeming contradiction no more than another variable. An unknown waiting to be solved. It was both six AND seven. The six were one, and the seventh the other. Did they desire union? The song seemed to say otherwise. Both were, yet only one could be. This was not a variable to be solved. It was a solution awaiting its opportunity." And from Firim in Exile, Epilogue: "It is clear to me now that there must be a Zereth for each force of the cosmos, and within them, an inner sanctum akin to the Sepulcher. And if that is true, then these sanctums must be connected on some fundamental level; a connection that the Jailer sought to exploit. What he began in the Sepulcher was meant to cascade outward from one Zereth to the next, until all were dominated by his power. The heart of the Shadowlands acting as a doorway to the heart of each cosmic force in turn, one after another bound to his will. I have seen how fragile the pattern is. How delicate the scales that keep the six forces in balance. if the Jailer, in his act of malevolence, left behind but the most imperceptible of cracks in that pattern, then I fear what is tiny now will only grow, until the balance itself is prone to be shattered by another force applying relentless pressure. I pray that the First Ones anticipated such an eventuality. That they would leave measures in place to preserve their grand design. Unless... Unless their design was never meant to endure. And that... that is the possibility that haunts me." If the Firim in Exile scripts are at all hints or insight to what is happening in the world in-game, and not just red herrings, then they provide some interesting clues. 1. It is difficult to balance the 6 cosmic forces. 2. Successfully balancing the 6 cosmic forces has the potential to give rise to a 7th cosmic force, one that is a combination of the other 6, yet it's own entity. 3. One cannot force the balance of the cosmic forces to give rise to the 7th, it arises as an opportunity. 4. "The First Ones" likely intended for their "Grand Design", (the multiverse at large which they divided up their "gifts" of the 6 cosmic forces across), to eventually be broken. 5. The means of breaking the Grand Design is through the Sepulchers connecting the cosmic forces, as the heart domain of every cosmic force is connected by a Sepulcher. So, in conclusion: I speculate that somehow Azeroth is the Avatar / Captain Planet of the 6 Cosmic Forces in the Warcraft Universe that will somehow manifest a 7th Cosmic Force. And the real reason why the Titans are so intent on preserving the "True Timeline" is not just having another Titan on their side, albeit a powerful one, but an entity even stronger than a Titan. Something on the same tier of power as the First Ones. Wielding the combined powers of all 6 Cosmic forces, and a yet undiscovered 7th. And likely having access to a 7th Sepulcher, with which they could access to break the Grand Design. And now we need to ask, even if Azeroth wakes up and is on our side, is breaking "The Grand Design" a good thing? Because what other purpose do they really serve in the cosmos otherwise? Just to sit around in an ivory tower as the cosmic top-dog, lording over the Titans, Void Lords, Lords of Death, and other equivalent entities for the rest of eternity?

[@glassworktrophic8465]

"I'm your dad. It's my job for it to be my fault." Still makes me tear up.

[@TheoRae8289]

It's possible that certain events have to happen because, if they don't, we might not be able to learn the truth of the titans. Iirc, sargeras had already broken off by time the Ordering of azeroth happened. He didn't care about azeroth until he had the vision mentioned in the destro lock artifact lore. The eye in that staff is said to look like the eye of azeroth that made him want to claim her (seriously sounded like he was in love-obsession on the first read) and started the legion's first invasion attempt.q I dont think anything related to the lich king fit into the Titans' true timeline.

[@schippes24]

had to think of a speech from one piece: "justice will prevail, you say? well, but of course it will! whoever wins the war, becomes justice" it's a pretty neat start for the titans, knowing WHICH timeline leads to them winning the war VS the void. And that's why N'zoth needs us to know which timeline is the one we succeed and which timeline the void has to destroy. N'zoth is just a scout for the voidlords at this point, creating small checkpoints for us to reach and overcome to see, if this is the one timeline they need to change

[@BattleF08]

Honestly as far as preserving the future they seek goes, I'm actually more concerned about the future the Light envisions. It also perceives one timeline it pursues, where it is victorious. What happens when the future they seek, and the one the Titans seek, no longer align?

[@Knokkelman]

I wonder if they will ever make the "birth" of Azeroth a thing, and what this would mean for it's inhabitants... Could maybe kickstart "WoW 2 - Interstellar Disco Warfare and Cosmology Exploration", for when Azeroth won't be a planet anymore. Or how about this: the final showdown/raid where we try to stop the Titans from actively speeding up the birthing process, and us winning becomes canon in WoW, but WoW 2 starts with us losing as it's premise.

[@BattleF08]

@@Knokkelman Honestly Azeroth's destruction by its Titan being born is unlikely, for many reasons. 1. When the Titans were destroyed they tried to inhabit the Keepers. Which would have put them on Azeroth. Bad idea, if it's a time bomb. 2. Magni is in direct communion with Azeroth. He's probably know. 3. Argus' soul was taken from its planet, without any negative effect to the planet. (Other than the Legion's destruction to get to his soul) 4. Azeroth would be the most powerful magic user the cosmos has ever seen. It would be child's play for her to just teleport out of the core, once awakened. 5. The Titans and Azeroth have shown themselves to have some benevolent care for their creations. When we fought Argus, they called us Azeroth's Children and put their hopes on us. Azeroth sends us warnings through Magni. They may think on scales above us. But they are not lacking in compassion or mercy. 6. These are creators and builders of Order. Being born in a violent and chaotic genocide of their children would not be what you would expect of such a being.

[@Knokkelman]

@@BattleF08 1. Not so much a time bomb but a temporary home that would need to be evacuated at some point. 2. "The King of Diamonds has been made a pawn" 3. fair point 4. Ok, but wouldn't that cause massive changes in magic energies, ley lines and stuff and everything azerite related? Deathwing wasn't THAT big and somehow caused a physical cataclysm, what about a magical catastrophe... 5. I mean, they were with their backs to the wall, so to speak, we were like their ONLY hope, so... Kinda sad how little consequences the ending of Legion had, even that damn sword in Silithus is still there. 6. I mean, we humans generally also love order and have things nice and clean, but birth, "the creation of one of us" just is an inherently stressful and violent act where so many things can go wrong, and it doesn't seem easy even for the Titans to get this right. Also, like the video implies - what if the Titan's benevolence is just a coincidence because it fits their plans NOW?

[@Kritigri]

Thank you for this video. I haven't found joy in the game for some time now but still and always will love Azeroth and this universe's story. This video felt like i was getting an update on that, and how things are shaking out. It'll help for next time I'm in the neighbourhood!

[@ArcaneEther]

What if Azeroth, the World Soul, isn't actually a TITAN World Soul? What if she is actually capable of becoming a creature under the power and alignment of any one of the six Cosmic Forces?

[@Queldonus]

Welcome to the club Tali. I have been questioning the Titan “one true timeline” since Legion. Was WoD break from the timeline? That explains why the titans showed up in legion, it was the first time something happened that threatened the world soul. So why did they leave afterwards? They are scared. Of us. They saw we have the strength to break with fate. They may not have realized the dragonflights had given up their titan powers, and therefore not under their direct control anymore. We have free will, and that opposes order. We’ll fight them eventually, unless they are willing to give up Azeroth.

[@wesleykeller3845]

Recently i discovered that Arthas Menethil was inspired by Fulgrim of the Warhammer 40k Universe. Interestingly enough, Fulgrim has a clone that achieve everything that the original primarch fail to be. This could be made via different time line.

[@sirski6777]

This can also play right into “unlocking” /getting classic plus content , with community voting for future updates and modified already fleshed out lore

[@Appathas]

I've posted this idea a few times in various places, but here's something that I think could easily make sense with the titans, 'true' timeline, nozdormu, and murozond: In the End Time dungeon, Murozond says something to the effect of "this timeline is a mercy you simply cannot comprehend." It's bleak and full of death, but you know what it still has? Free will. What if the 'True' timeline ultimately ends with the titans achiving total victory, and then turning to the mortal races and saying "alright, now it's time to clean up this mess." They undo the curse of flesh, mortals all lose their free will and become robotic construct slaves of the titans. Maybe Nozdormu eventually sees that end of the 'true' timeline, and turns away from it, becoming Murozond. The Titans knew this would hapen eventually, so they discredit Murozond before he even exists, telling Nozdormu "hey, you're going to go mad in the future, don't listen to yourself." And because Nozdormu spreads the word to the other aspects, Murozond has no one to confide in, meaning he has to do it alone-- just himself and his flight. So Murozond starts trying to derail the timeline; possibly to alter it irreversibly away from a full titan victory, or possibly to try to rescue those that would listen and ally to his cause. But he fails at (almost) every turn, and in the end, the best he can do for Azeroth is the end time, where most are dead and things look hopeless... but it's better than everyone being turned into mindless, soulless robot slaves to the titans. Anyway, thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

[@torimonster100]

The cut scene with Illidan and Narru could’ve been a hint too. He literally kills a being of light because his destiny is his own

[@KirkpatrickSounds]

Didn't expect Laplace's demon in a T&E vid haha. Good shit.

[@corbin_4738]

Those Bronze Whelpings were the beginning of the Infinite Dragonflight - since even as whelps they can exist at any time.

[@brandonbireley1690]

These little time walking quests are actually pretty clever

[@mattwo7]

18:15 Elune is probably from the Pantheon of Life. Titan-adjacent but not quite a Titan. I mean the egg was raised in the Winter Queen's realm and WQ is Elune's sister (which is a clear enough indicator that Elune was another godly creation of the First Ones)

[@taylorholton2149]

Best intro you guys have ever made! Bravo. I'm very sure it took a lot of work but if you ever doubt if it was worth it, I would say it was!

[@Nagassh]

This argument always feels like it falls a bit flat when the argument is that because the Titans don't care about such insignificant entities as the player, we should rebel. The Titans end-goal and every Titan interaction still tends to paint them as fairly benevolent, if not altruistic (at least until the writing decided it wanted to be SUBVERTIVE). A world where Azeroth survives long enough to have it's world soul seems pretty beneficial for the ants living on Azeroth when the alternatives are Old God antics or legion invasions. The Arthas argument also falls completely flat when even IF his horse not dying prevented him ending up at Stratholme, all that results in is the inhabitance turning into ghouls. A fate most people are shown as viewing as worse than death. Arthas wasn't exactly culling them out of malice. We'd still have a Lich King, a scourge invasion and possibly a stronger one considering there'd be less scourge infighting with the dreadlords (which is confusing as is considering the SL retcon to have them both being Jailer aligned, but I guess that'll be explained when Steve bothers to live up to his promise to explain why Maldraxxus had Nerubian architecture).

[@Skollshorties]

2:01 Finally, Rexxar made a cameo in one of T&E's videos.

[@andrewjwhitus]

That weird buff/aura you get when doing the Tyr quest always made me feel like Tyr is a bad guy.

[@Gebirges]

The opening bit is the story of Xenoblade ... Stop time, Super Computer, Predict the Future and all that stuff

[@Marsonis2ya]

Remember dwarf logic, the longer your beard the wiser you are. Aman'thul has to be the wisest in existence.

[@WowDestroyer9]

Hazeldawn : why guess snaps fingers i control time

[@notunremarkable]

Props for the Father's Day reference. One of my fave episodes of Dr Who!

[@KheiaMedcherKhaine]

There is a reason we can still see the red "star" titan pantheon in the sky.

[@Lichtelwichtel]

hurts every time he says "lapleis" instead of "laplas" :D

[@feliksulvaenisaksen9120]

I came to the comments to look for someone else who got annoyed by that!

[@kennethsabo7558]

I would absolutely love if blizz used this chance to 'redo' the game from the ground up. Kind of turn wow into wow2 and modernize it all, never happen of course, but i can dream right? lol (start the timeline over and go thru each expansion with the story varying from what we know, the lore nerd in me just giggles at the shenanigans that would be possible!)

[@KoleMyrick]

Intro, perfection. Quantum Leap references, fucking amazing. A++ work, sir.

[@Wunderkind04]

I'm fairly convinced now that this is how it all works: The Titans blessed the dragons, but they lost their powers. The mortals of Azeroth worship Elune, but we don't know who she is. Because the tree blessed by Elune is now going to bless THEM, and Elune is referred to as an "Upstart goddess" by Xala'tath, it makes me believe that Elune is some kind of "mini Titan". And by that I mean, perhaps she was a world soul that formed in a literal moon of a planet, the planet's soul escaped to the moon as it was being destroyed by the legion, or it was a very small planet that couldn't form into a larger one, only forming a moon instead. Whichever it is, I'm thinking that she never fully developed. She's powerful, but not nearly as powerful as the OG Titans. Therefor, they probably just tossed her away, not allowing her to join their club. Not only this, but perhaps she also opposed them forcing one true timeline, and the same thing happened. Now, perhaps Elune is in support of us and this theory, and that' why she's assisting us. Just my two cents.

[@Michael-bn1oi]

Who knows? Makes some solid sense though. And there are a few ways they could do a "mini titan" More traditional "Child" perhaps. In any case, I think you are dead on about the Moon/World Soul connection

[@calamity0.o]

A moon can be a celestial body with a still active core producing heat, like a planet or star are also celestial bodies with cores. Only difference is basically the size. There are gas giant planets so large they barely miss the cusp of producing that star pressure. Perhaps Elune is to Azeroth as Theia is to Earth. Shared Earth's proto planet orbit and collided with, becoming our moon. Maybe introduced important building blocks, chemicals, bacteria to life formation. I think scientist have discovered the moon's core is still active. Maybe Elune introduced components of the gift of flesh. If a world soul is a planet's energy producing core, ask why the cybermen, I mean titans have built all these pumps and stuff inside azeroth? They seek to order life to stop change they see as imperfect, decay. Decay is part of life, change from one organism to the next. Decay is not death, Decay is life's renew. I even think the titans shaped their iron dwarves and mech gnomes as prisons for the energy of Azeroth's first flesh, to make their armies here. When titans retreated, they went underground, Azeroth blessed them with the gift of flesh, to return them to her fold, emerging as the fleshy dwarves and gnomes we see. This world is a prison, that's what the titans do. That's why the pumps are restricting Azeroth's power, using her own energy as power for the prison, until they deem her ready to harvest and stick inside a Titan model...for her own good...to stop decay, stagnate change.

[@thickums8198]

I think you're close. I think Elune is a Void Lord. Basically, the Void version of a Titan. Would explain why they took the Void visual language in-game very deliberately in a more cosmic/stars direction (Rygelon, Star Augur). And that's why they've been so secretive about her true nature and of the nature of Void Lords in general. Mentioned very briefly any time they're talked about, and we haven't fought one since BC (which may as well not be canon with how messy the writing was). They're the NIGHT Elves. Darkness is their thing. It makes sense their deity would be a titan of the Void, especially now that we know Blizz are writing the Great Dark Beyond as being one in the same with the Void (made very explicit in Sarkareth encounter). This is very much a turn towards WC's Lovecraftian roots. Lovecraft's version of Void Lords were the Outer Gods, described as such on the Lovecraft wiki: "They are again described as "gigantic", "tenebrous", "blind", "voiceless", and "mindless", dancing to the sounds of pipes and drums at the court of their sultan Azathoth." Their sultan... Azathoth. Hmmmm... we know very well Metzen is a Lovecraftian nerd and early Void visual language was very Cthulhu-esque, and it seems he just kept going with the Lovecraft parallels. The REAL true timeline that the Titans are trying desperately to prevent is where Azeroth/Azathoth ascends to become the sultan of the court of the Void Lords.

[@bzabuntu]

Honestly cutting ties with titans would be great. We cut ties with death - Shadowlands We cut ties with chaos - Legion We kind ooof cut ties with void - BOA (ofc you cannot totally cut ties with them but most direct rope was cut) We cut ties with elemental lords - whole WoW lore So it would be super nice to cut ties with titan and make Azeroth totally free (or avatar of elements/godly energies) Especially that titans mostly = light. So it would make great expac of disco war, where we balance our fighting with titans with not letting void corrupt us.

[@gold-waffles]

If you haven't seen the Star Trek TNG season 6 episode "Tapestry" I highly recommend. It deals with trying to fix something in the past, albeit with more of a spin on identity.

[@ellagg]

The Time Rift music makes the intro very epic.

[@kyber3537]

I believe the Titans were just keeping the world in-tact. Ordering worlds was a way to combat the Old Gods and the Void, and allow life to flourish. Life that can then defend itself (like how we have fought old gods) and endure So the Primalists (the guys who are feeding us the anti-Titan ideas) are currently villains. They come from a time when the world was controlled by Elemental lords and the threat of the old gods was still in the back of everyone’s mind. If the Primalists were this chaotic back in the day, I could see why the Titans didn’t favor them and the Aspects sealed them away. And yet now, Azeroth is a better place due to the Titan’s involvement

[@thatsharpguy1]

Sintalies, the infinite ursurper has taken Talie's place.. everyone clap till his soul and heart are restored!

[@zeeapz3894]

I like villain's like iridikron, they make you think they are a villain with sound reasoning and context, they make you think 🤔 are we the good guys? Or the bad guys? What actually makes a good guy, good and a villain, bad?

[@sandmanjr2k3]

Every time “battle E” theme comes on, Tali hits us with the serious food for thought. Ohh my heart loves it soooo!

[@LuxferusAnimus7]

The editing in this video is 🤌🏻🤌🏻🤌🏻

[@artimusofthemoon2419]

From What I understood If arthas Didnt become the lich King wed never go north which means that Y'shaarj wouldnt have died and he could have taken over, killing everyone. Therefore its a few thousand lives versus everyone

[@ChaosMan]

Great video, really loved the use of the mega dungeon music and the the general structure!

[@DugNick3]

"Your Gods are not YOUR Gods, outsider" -some big bug warning us about stuff in MoP as part of a Rep Quest chain, probably.

[@n-rage531]

"The Tians don't care about us" well, they don't, but you know who cares about me? ME. This is MY timeline, right? So I might as well protect it regardless of the titans,

[@BigbossShoshka]

I think there a lot of interesting angles too this! Like, consider doing the quest to put the rocks down as an undead who's been with the Horde since Vanilla. If Arthas never became the Lich King, then the forsaken never come into being. They never join the Horde, and they would've been down a major ally. If we never banded together to take down Arthas, would we have been less prepared as Champions to take on later threats? Would we never had gone to the Shadowlands to truly stop Zovaal? Would one of his many other plans happen at some point? It's true that trillions of tiny decisions can be made to direct the course of history. But we also see many other timelines in how easily it could've gone wrong, and come out much worse than it is now. If Athas never became lich king, could we have become one of those other timelines? What about stopping Celestalon in Ulduar and Loken's betrayal that we helped resolve? How easily could one of the many other dangerous of the world not have been stopped had we not been compelled to go to Northrend? It's fascinating to think about.

[@bridget88]

This theory is way cooler than anything the devs will come up with as usual. Fan theories are always better than what we actually get in game, unfortunately.

[@itswhzly]

This is an interesting concept. If the story leans into the idea that the timeline we are in is a timeline to serve the Titans and Titans only, the next expansion could possibly be an expansion where we say, screw this timeline, things don’t have to be the way they are and we go back in time and explore the old world of Azeroth with everything revamped (hinted and speculated for a world revamp) and maybe we do things in Lorderon/Gilneas and other places in Azeroth (Kalimdor & Northern Kingdoms). The expansion would be a twist of what it was like to play classic and retail at the same time maybe idk. I think going into another timeline could be great for a giant reset for everyone, the server economy, and maybe it’s all about adventure again. Start at level 1 and go to 60 in the world that we know but older and revamped. A person can dream.

[@sblinder1978]

The problem with this theory is that the Titans are preserving the timeline where one of their number falls to evil, kills them all, tortures them for untold time, corrupts one of them, loses an unborn world-soul to the betrayer, nearly lose the multiverse when the dead world-soul goes to the Shadowlands, are unable to port their essences into their keepers, etc. To say nothing of the numerous Keepers who go off-mission. Or their creations succumbing to the Curse of Flesh. THIS is the timeline from the infinite multitude of possibles, that they preserve for selfish reasons??

[@AxR558]

The question is, if we "break" the true timeline - is that a choice that we make or is it the true timeline playing out in its predetermined way. I mean we're still at the mercy of the narrative direction that higher powers (Blizz) enforce upon us. To paraphrase the Oracle in the Matrix: "would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?"

[@aimpotatoe7513]

Incredible Episode, got the chills at the conclusion. Loved it!

[@influx8450]

The problem is that most of nature was conquered by order the Emerald Dream is an ordered region of life, shaped by titans. So why would reviving the tree's blessing which is touched by death life and order be a good thing?

[@tinyvalkyrie6740]

Eeeey TLC shoutout, nice

[@aarent]

Isn't Azeroth supposed to be one of if not the most powerful titan out there and if void corrupted Azeroth woke up instead of titan Azeroth we're all dead? So then wouldn't the true timeline the titans want be in our best interest as well even if bad things happen along the way preventing our potential mass extinction seems a bit more important. This sounds video sounds like some void propaganda if you ask me. DIdn't Taliesin never take off the void hat from bfa? Isn't he super in love with his knifu waifu from legion? Sounds to me like he's trying to push void agenda over here.

[@AfroMidwestern]

They're only like two Titans that actually like mortals in the way they are now

[@AfroMidwestern]

I'm on nobody's side nor Titan nor void. I view that there needs to be a balance between all of the forces, without the void there is no individuality. There is only rigid order.

[@AfroMidwestern]

This is from a new player so maybe I don't understand but I do not view any of the parties. Any of the elements is actually good or evil, and another part you forget about the other sides. There are other sides in this struggle, life, death and light, All of these forces are only aiming for their game. They're not looking to save anyone.

[@Mytwistedthoughts25]

I don't like the ''ants'' comparison but probably blizzard agrees with you on this. When was the last time ants freed someone from jail, worshiped us or influenced our lives in a direct way? The power comparison seems fitting but the relationship between Titans and mortals is far more complex

[@Orixil]

Timetravel, timeways, multiverse, and all that, has always rubbed me the wrong way in WoW for a few reasons: 1. It requires very specific and very detailed and very strict storywriting to get right. And Blizzard are not known for that. 2. It's incredibly difficult to convey the nuances of such a story, so that people actually understand it and appreciate it. And WoW has never really been very good at that, hence why we need KZbinrs to explains those nuances to us. They're hard to pick up by just playing the game every once in a while. 3. Blizzard have never really set the story up very well, but rather stumbled into it. For all the faults of the Titans and their true timeline, they still represent a world order akin to "real life". And what's wrong with that? If Blizzard wanted a more grey portrayal of the Titans, then it feels like they're about 20 years too late. Any greyness that's already there is hidden in the details in ways that people who aren't lore nerds aren't picking up on.

[@deployed246]

I love thought experiments like this, and I will be addressing _a_ theory as to why Arthas must become the Lich King (there are many, I merely have one), I do recognise that it is no way near as clear cut and obvious as why we had to make sure Medivh brought the original Horde to Azeroth even though that caused thousands of deaths in Stormwind, but there are reasons and I will need time to articulate that post. However, the theory does not mean "trust the Titans, trust the true timeline", because ultimately, our scrabbles mean nothing to *certain* *members* of the Titan Pantheon, which we have known about *since* *meeting* *Algalon* *in* *Ulduar.* The world is literally set up to wipe us out should we not meet the Pantheon's mission operandi. No, the lives at Stormwind, Stratholme, Theramore, Teldrassil and Lordaeron do not mean anything to them. They equate to the sum of a gnat's fart if they are seen to be a hindrance to them. So what I want to point out is, even if every death that has ever happened does prevent something worse in the long run (like saving the lives of Stormwind's denizens by preventing the Horde from arriving results in the Burning Legion successfully consuming Nordrassil, resulting with Azeroth being destroyed or claimed by the Legion) I still think we shouldn't trust the Titans, or rather, we shouldn't trust Aman'thul, and neither should the _other_ Titans. Many have often wondered, "How is Eonar a member of Order? Isn't she all about Life?" I've gone further, and while this is very much a form of profiling and grasping at old uncononised lore from the TTRPG, but notice that she is a Bronze Titan, a Vanir Titan, as are Khaz'goroth, Aggramar and pre-corruption Sargeras. Aman'thul, Norgannon and Golgannath are Silver Titans, or Aesir Titans. I feel like even though that difference has been glossed over since the TTRPG was decanonised, I don't feel that it is irrelevant or unusable. Aman'thul was the first to awaken and woke the others, likely ordering their World Souls in the process. I believe he truly is a being of Order, but I do not think the Bronze Titans are. I think Aman'thul has manipulated and lied to both the Vanir and the other Aesir Titans in order to create more power for Order. Likewise, I suspect the Dreadlords lied to Sargeras about the Void Lord's presence on their "homeworld". I think _that_ World Soul was always meant to belong to the Void and the Dreadlords done be doing what they do and created discord for discord's sake *cough*truemembersofDisorder*cough*. It wasn't **_their_** homeworld, and Sargeras killed a Void Titan, and in retaliation, or rather, in order to retain balance, the Void Lords looked to claim other World Souls to make up for what they lost *and* to build an army to counter Aman'thul's attempts to create too much order, which wasn't helped by one of Aman'thul's "brood" destroying their World Soul. To cap this lunatic theory off, I no longer think Sargeras and Agrammer are Bronze Titans, I believe they are Gold and belonged to the Light (noble and just), with Eonar and Khaz'gorth, the creationists, belonging to Life. Norgannon is true Order, Golgannath is a question mark at the moment for me, but his focal point is creation of elements (air and water) which can be seen as an aspect of magic, belonging to order. This obviously falls apart due to Argus only belonging to Death after interference from the Dreadlords (thanks Shadowlands lore, you ruin everything, even made up fluff like this) rather than naturally belonging to Death, but maybe he was the perfect vessel for souls in the first place _becasue_ he was a Death Titan all along, and its one big coincidence. #clutching Anyway, Aman'thul is an issue no matter what, and I think its much more interesting if it was only him that was an issue and the rest of the Pantheon were victims of his authoritarian leadership and nurturement.

[@Haydrion]

From the moment we realized that the 1 eye guy sitting in the warrior's order hall in Legion (i know his name. I just dont wanna say it) made is think hes a good guy while we found out he was behind a lot of shit happening before and during our time on Azeroth made me stop believing in the Titans.

[@KWRayleigh]

This is a very interesting video, I loved it. Replying to your question regarding what the viewer thinks, I genuinely like the idea of that our timeline isn't the true timeline in a cosmic sense. deep wow lore is some of the best story telling I have ever witnessed like the Garrosh storyline, Scarlet crusades, Arthas, N'zoth, unironically Deathwing. these stories were so good and they support individuality which promotes decision making and following a certain narrative to its completion which is a good thing, time travel can be complicated but that isn't a bad thing when done right.

[@ekin4260]

So they're doing what they did with the glowing windchimes to the Titans. I'm calling it right now, three expansions into the future, we'll be asking "Wait wait wait... Could Elune not be as great as we were led to believe?"

[@FedericoMarsili]

One of your best videos ever, Tali. It has evocative narration, lots of lore and a bit of speculation that never hurts. I hope you enjoyed making this video as much as I did watching it.

[@austinsebben1402]

One of the things Nozdormu mentions somewhere, either a voice line or in a dialogue box, is that there is the constant risk of the timeline you’re living in becoming NOT the true timeline anymore

[@MegaChickenfish]

Looking back on it... *Culling of Stratholme* : Arthas kills a bunch of people *Opening of the Dark Portal* : Orcs come in and kill a bunch of people In fact you'd swear that despite the constant the constant effort to "preserve the true timeline" a nearly world-ending event was happening every few years. _Weird._ So much death necessitated for an ultimate cosmic goal related to Azeroth's world soul. Waaait a minute.... Aman'thul: That's right, * pulls off latex mask * Jailer: *IT WAS ALL MY MASTER PLAN!*

[@monkeysk8er33]

You know, theorycrafting is great and all - I do it myself quite often - but when there's this massive of a global miscomprehension of the lore, I have to address it, sternly. The True Timeline is the REAL timeline. All other alternate timelines, like WoD's, are branches of the True Timeline's tree. Cut off a branch, and the tree still lives, but cut the tree down, and all branches go down with it. NO OTHER TIMELINE MATTERS. The True Timeline is named such as it is what holds together the Infinite Timeways, and is where Reality occurs. This has been clarified by the devs, in books, and in game. Now I i do love the narrative being insinuated that this ISNT the case by Iridikron, but people are forgetting a few MAJOR key factors in what hes saying: 1. Hes an unreliable narrator. He's an antagnoist. 2. He works with/for the fucking Void, who sees the Infinite Timeways, and makes plans for all of them. The Void Lords are master manipulators, as the Old Gods are, but on a cosmic level. Onviously the Void is manipulating Iridikrom as hey did with Deathwing. As George Lucas says: "it's like poetry, it rhymes." This expansion is the poetic duality counterpart to Cataclysm, and if thats not obvious, than you don't pay attention. Legion was the mirror to TBC. Who was behind both? The Burning Legion. Shadowlands was the mirror to WotLK. Who was behind both? The Jailer. Dragonflight is the mirror to Cataclysm. Who was behind both? The Void. If you pay attention to everything that's come before and everything out now, the lore stays consistent. If you start throwing out old lore, by attempting to retcon or recontextualize Warcraft YOURSELF, rather than accepting what the actual writers give us, you start coming up with this hairbrain theories that arent supported by the overall evidence. Not only that, but this whole dumb argument about this being the most beneficial timeline for the Titans is just devoid of logic. How in the hell is a timeline where they're slain and imprisoned for god knows how many years their "best option?!" You really think there aren't say, Idk alternate timelines WE'VE SEEN IN GAME where the Titans have total control over Azeroth that would be MORE preferential? 10.5 shouldve burried this theory a thousand times over, but people cheery pick what lore they believe, rather than accepting what we actually have and theorycrafting off that. Legion was the golden era of theorycrafting. Theorycrafting since SL has just been god awful. I should just make my own Warceaft channel, because clearly none of the WoWtubers know wtf they're talking about anymore. 🤦 Love you though, Tali. There's just waaaaay too much evidence against this theory. And you're not the only not the first to raise it. Accolonn does this shit all the time. And Pyromancer basically got bullied out of the lorecrafting community for his ever-deteriorating nonsense theories. Now its happening to everyone, and it just makes me sad.

[@Yattayatta]

Banger video, if the conclusion is right, it could still be for "the greater good" though, perhaps it's the final piece in staving off the hungering Void and Entropy from consuming reality?

[@DDDiegoAGM]

That intro? DEAR ELUNE! that intro was raid gear right there

[@cvetelinivanov3304]

The Squarespace introduction was just too god :D, this is the 1st time I am listening to it from time to finish :D D:

[@thepiazzaexperience]

Wait. 18:45 what if we reforge Tyr... And he kills Vyranoth, OR AmanThul appears and he does it. THAT being what causes Murazond but also all the Dragons to stop following the Titans.

[@taxidermist8861]

Yeah, this doesnt make sense. Once you pull at the seams, the whole story unravels, because nothing is ever "true" anymore, nothing is canon and nothing ever happens because a bronze dragon can change it at any point they wish to. The story needs the True Timeline concept to stay cohesive. Like, why should we fight Fyrakk when a bronze dragon can just go back in time and crush the egg he hatches from ?

[@minervaalexia6074]

hell yeah, was not expecting to hear tali reference laplace's demon today

[@xv1k375]

If Arthas hadn’t become the Lich King, we wouldn’t have gone to Northrend in wotlk and we wouldn’t have learned about Yogg-Saron breaking out of his prison. Which would have surely ended the world if left unchecked.

[@darniil]

Azeroth is a nascent Titan, so why would it be bad for the Titans to want to protect one of their own? That's only logical, Tali.

[@amalthea924711]

10/10 perfect video. Love when Tali gets deeply analytical.

[@nue_perspectives]

Am I the only one who noticed this remixed theme song when she was going over squarespace? That beat was hitting lol