Training Without Conflict® Podcast Episode Forty-One: Jany Böhm

[@pauld6072]

Great show guys. The sport needs this. Too much lack of knowledge in the scoring system . It must become more transparent otherwise it will fade away.

[@train2121]

Jany made also a great point at the end. It's not only about the judges, there are so many details attitude, technique, cooperation, handling that need to be judged seperately and how should one judge be able to do that? 1. There needs to be a common agreement on what the judges want to see, defined in detail exercise by exercise and 2. split into different dimensions where points can be earned like in other olympic sports where judging with points can make or break the game, like boxing, horse riding, synchronized swimming etc. for instance technique, focus, handling and 3. use multiple judges and let them score independent from each other.

[@train2121]

I was at FMBB 2024 in Italy and it was frustrating watching the judge in C, as I witnessed for instance in the World Cup, writing stuff down during the whole back transport or guarding phases instead of watching the routine. Obviously it is not even possible for the one judge to handle this, because at some point he needs to write stuff down to remember...there alone is the issue with only using one judge. When I first started following IGP sport I didn't understand how one person could decide about the fate over 100s of athletes. It is just almost not possible to be consistent for so long and therefor not a fair competition. I was always thinking about boxing or other sports like ski jumping as a reference. But what I liked most and you might laugh but take a look at it, is synchronised swimming. They have 2 panels of 5 judges each, that are responsible for judging different elements of the routine. Technical, Impression e.g. and because of the distribution factor and number of judges, the scores average out to a point it becomes statistically very fair play. Also they weigh different parts with percentage 40% to 60% e.g. also same in dog sport where primary (70%) and secondary (30%) parts of exercises are weighed. Take a look if you find time. I found it very inspiring for a possible adaptation of the judging process in IGP: www.realbuzz.com/articles-interests/sports-activities/article/synchronised-swimming-judging-and-points-scoring

[@CharlieTheCaneCorso]

Any plans to have oscar mora on the show?

[@Stylisticish]

I think Jany is onto something when he said about having 2 sets of judgements with technical and performance judging. As someone new to see the FMBB and the sport in general, seeing people like you Ivan and Jany struggling at a world championship is a bit heartbreaking and on some level, I can really understand the super high level of frustration. I did rewatch Janys performance and it's super world class, and I could probably sit all day watching this. Well deserved to be on the podium, now if it's for 2nd or 1st I don't know. I love seeing the magic happen and can't wait to hopefully be there myself one day. I definitely agree that there should be some sort of VAR system like in football (soccer) that can be played back if there is a conflict and say - hey this and this is conflicting with the reduction or addition of points. Now please explain the reasoning. Because a competition should not be "because the judges like certain handlers" therefor XYZ. Isn't the core of this to show the dogs? They are the ones performing here, the most. Of course the handlers are also in it for the commands and they put in the training, but this is truly in the core, in my opinion, about the dogs. And I think the organization has strayed away from that a bit far. I mean I'm really no-one to talk, I love the sport and the precision the many many amazing and talented dogs and handlers and hope to be there at some point. I am always so inspired by the TWC podcasts and this one really deserves a part 2, I hope very soon.

[@jasonloong5493]

Very interesting episode! I'm curious what you would think of this as an option to create clarity in standards for judging world championships while satisfying the ability to help competitors know what to train for since the rules are so openly interpreted: 1) You could take each of the highest scoring routines in A, B, and C at one year's World Championship, and then make those videos available publicly as the example/standard of highest points for the following year's world championship. Meaning in 2024, the dog that earned High Tracking would be the example for maximum points to be given at the following year's WC event (and the same for OB and Protection). This way, it makes sure that there is a possibility for different styles to be used as the ideal example for maximum points in each phase. Rarely will that be the same dog who is high in all three phases, but it could potentially be. And then every 3rd or 4th year, there is NO EXAMPLE and it that specific WC is left to the FCI judges to freely interpret and assign points without an existing standard from the previous years dog with High A, B, or C. This way, you are able to give competitors the ability to train to a specific standard of performance, and you still allow the FCI judges to occasionally adjust the direction of the picture if deemed necessary. I'm no world competitor, but given the conversation between Jany and Ivan, this seems like it might satisfy the concerns presented during this podcast episode. Lastly, I would love to hear in Part 2, a discussion about the aspects in WC trials that help differentiate between a "Good dog" versus a dog with "good training"! Keep it up guys.

[@matilha01]

One more name writed in my peace of paper. Need also to know this guy. Really liked your conversation🤝

[@AnimaTriste]

1:22: "Who wants to be a track layer, any volunteers...?" 😂😂😂😂 In our country, you HAVE to pass an exam and get a license to be a track layer. Seriously. I totally agree that this is one of the most serious things. Maybe the dog can not injure himself so easily as in protection, but you can easily get an insufficient score or disqualification if the track layer doesn't know what he is doing.

[@train2121]

One thought about importance of breeding vs. importance of training. For example: look at how American Football or any other pro sport has developed. The rules and nature of a given sport, especially where a high degree of athletic performance is demanded, will per default design the requirements for a certain genetic predisposition. Strength, Speed, mental toughness are all prerequisites that are needed to enter the highest performance levels. Of course you can train, but your potential is genetically predetermined. Then there is sports IQ which is also a genetic prerequisite (potential) which determines how good you can move, interpret and process information during play. When it comes to how you perform on the highest level it is determined by genetical potential physically and mentally and the rules of the game will have a great impact on which characteristics will be considered when choosing an athlete. 20 years ago American Football because of the rules and game strategies was more about strength, today it is all about speed and change of direction capabilities. (quickness) The same applies for IGP. Today because competitors dont know what an excellent looks like any more on the highest level, because of different opinions and no consistent rule set you see a lot of different types of dogs. As soon as the rule set will be defined more precisely this will affect the selection of dogs dor IGP as well. Because if speed gets valued over power then to win in high performance competitions just as in American Football e.g. there would be an even more focused selection towards evolving power, speed and quickness. That is just an example, same applies obviously to tracking and other stuff. So a more precise ruleset and what we commonly agree on what the perfect picture looks like, it would also have a big impact on genetic selection and evolution.

[@jacksonandersen3085]

As each individual exercise is completed, the judges should enter a score, then the total points should be averaged. They shouldn’t be able to let it complete and manipulate the final score.

[@jacksonandersen3085]

Enter them in a remote system

[@rottsandspots]

In large dressage competitions the marks are entered and you see them in real time on TV.

[@pitbullshanna]

its already hard enough for beginners to get into igp, with clubs not being very welcoming. its very frustrating to hear things like you need to have balls to judge. my most recent activities has been with a psa club who was extreamly welcoming and fun, and didnt mind that i was working towards igp. i think igp is going to loose beginners to more welcoming, inclusive fun clubs.

[@brandyb51]

I hear this from people, and I see a lot of discrimination re: breeds in IGP as well. Clubs need to welcome new people in order to keep the sport alive.

[@pitbullshanna]

@@brandyb51 the first year i had my husky mix, the next year i purchased a nice gsd. i also thought i wasnt accepted due to breed. i have been invited to a couple clubs a bit further from me this year. my gsd is almost 3 now

[@brandyb51]

@@pitbullshanna glad to hear you’ve been invited. It’s a shame when clubs aren’t welcoming as it turns people away from the sport. Good luck with everything!

[@rottsandspots]

@@brandyb51it’s hard as a decoy can only work so many dogs, and no-one wants to let a junior decoy work their dogs. So it’s a vicious cycle. Then when you get into the sport, you get lots of discrimination based on breed, in my case my disabilities and so much nepotism. You need a good supportive club, that’s for sure.

[@brandyb51]

@@rottsandspots it’s really unfortunate that this is the case. Wish there was more dog sport clubs that were supportive.

[@adityashetty9241]

damn this is a good one I can feel it

[@pegasusk9dogtraining906]

I was once told on the bark and hold that my Rottweiler needs to bark more like a GSD ? How the hell can a 50kg Rottweiler bark like a 36kg Gsd ? They are totally built differently for one thing. This judge has only ever had GSD. They should judge the dog In front of them. This dog was with you on the FCI world championship Jany in Germany. It's crazy when Judges say stupid things.

[@AnimaTriste]

I watched obedience and protection a few times of Janny and a winner, Marc Oliver. Obedience of Janny was a very, very unfortunate event: in general, it would be near perfect, like out of this world, fast, energetic, but precise. There was this grave error in sit out of motion, though, where the dog was influenced twice, it seems. On the first command, it only changed the rithm of steps, and after a few steps, he lied down. A great pity for me, indeed, the dog is magnificent. It can happen sometimes. I'm no judge, but 11 points loss? How is this possible? Maybe because of a second influence? The dog of Marc Oliver had a series of issues: first 180° turn was a total failure, then left turns were bad, slow sit and down out of motion, stand exercise was a walk in the park. Aports were not bad, but not so convincing as Jannys, but then another grave difference: very slow down after "Voraus". Again, I'm no judge, but I saw similar exercises judged in mid eighties in the past, and not just on competition of world championship level. But in my opinion, Janny and his dog were discredited and overpenalized in protection the most. One can simply not compare the two: if Janny's protection deserved 96, then Marc Oliver's surely didn't, sorry. Bites were not full on at least two occasions, and the dog was not technically perfect. Like 90 or plus point or two. In contrast, Janny's dog presented himself as something like out of this world: unbelivable power and control. Janny, I'm sorry for you. For me, at least, you are the real winner.

[@CharlieTheCaneCorso]

The local igp club refused to take me coz I have a cane corso not a malinois or shepherd How can we improve cane corso ability in igp if we can't do igp

[@jackiepitts4992]

I compete in a different dog sport than you (field trials) but the same conversations happen all the time. Favoritism, lack of knowledge, mistakes and sometimes just lack of effort by the judges make it very frustrating for the competitor at both local and especially national level. We do not even get scored on our performance so the judges have absolutely no accountability for there decisions. If it makes you feel better you guys are light years ahead of my sport in dialing in judges. 😂

[@AnimaTriste]

Around 32:15. "The world is not so divided..." You would be surprised, how divided it is, even in the small countries in EU, the trainers are bitter enemies. Maybe you don't feel that, because you are one of the "important" people in sport, but that is the fact.

[@4688VS]

Would it be possible to judge the breeding quality of the dog considering the level of training vs the current exercises? Or would certain exercises need to be changed? Very cool POD cast Thanks

[@i_k9]

The Swedish military assesses breeding quality like the following. They breed German Shepherds, give them to foster families, then test them after about 1 year. Consider that these dogs are not being trained in that year, so you can truly see the genetic quality. Level of training is tested by the exercise, or not? If you break down a "finished" dog, it's broadly a function of genetics+ experience+ training. Hopefully that helped you.

[@4688VS]

@@i_k9 dont the judges also confirm at the end of C? Maybe i misunderstood what tsb is.

[@Noobener]

Does Jany know the meaning of "ya ni" in building japanese sentences.