IVF, Surrogacy, and Infertility: A Thoughtful Christian Approach

[@marssionary]

We know that pain. We spent years trying to decide how “far” to go in infertility treatment. In the end we chose very little intervention and went with adoption. The reasons are all the reasons you talk about in this video. I could not stand the thought of one of our babies being outside my womb and harmed in the lab. Or the lab lying to us about how many were created. Or the thought of one of our babies suspended in time through freezing. I just couldn’t handle those thoughts and had no peace about it. My precious precious babies are God’s beautiful gift through adoption. I wish more believers would think through this more.

[@siennacowling7076]

Amen!

[@blacksilver6832]

I apologise for any offense, but this train of thought I find is quite extreme..

[@marssionary]

@@blacksilver6832 no offense, but I am curious in what way is it extreme?

[@stayroxy]

we need to make adoption easier and more affordable. just because we CAN do something doesn't mean we SHOULD.

[@marvalice3455]

yes but, we also need better oversight.

[@marvalice3455]

@Ascended Eclectic fake problem.

[@OUpsychChick]

I couldn't disagree more. Adoption needs to serve the needs of children in unfortunate situations. The client in adoption should always be the child, and the goal should never be to increase the demand for it as a way to parenthood. Look up the organization called Saving Our Sisters. As it is, the adoption agencies are inappropriately pressuring women to give up their babies. It should not be treated as a way to provide adults with children but rather seen as what it is, our best attempt to try and dress a deep wound on an unfortunate child.

[@Arginne]

I mean adoption is just purchasing children as well. And a lot of these children (including my dad) actually had bio family members who wanted them but instead they were sold

[@dvbibbs192]

You never see pro-lifers line up to adopt foster children.

[@ineedmoney737]

Thanks for doing a session on this topic! It’s sooooo near and dear to my heart. My husband and I have dealt with fertility issues for at least 3 years. We struggle with “subfertility” meaning that he produces sperm, but with an inadequate number and motility. We spoke to an IVF doc and a restorative reproductive doctor as well. We ultimately chose to pursue restorative fertility for many of the reasons voiced in this video. You gave words to my feelings of objection! Thank you! I can say now that I’m so grateful that we didn’t choose IVF. One reason is because it led us down a road to be foster parents. I now know that I can be satisfied without children and also without biological children. When you talked about idolizing children and pregnancy I can relate! I did that for so long and it led me down a very unhappy road. I allowed God to heal my heart and restore to me the joy of life even without children. Thanks for approaching such a sensitive subject with grace and truth. I do have some soul searching to do as i am a nurse who helps consult women and men about their fertility options before starting cancer treatment as many treatments can affect the reproductive system. There are options that don’t include using egg retrieval and encourage natural childbirth of which is an option for most women. I’m encouraged and challenged at the same time. Thank you again!

[@SeanMcDowell]

Thanks for sharing your story!

[@balletktmc]

Hmm, I have to disagree with her final conclusion that all forms of Ivf are wrong (sinful basically). In the case that a single embryo is created (which, by the way, is still ultimately created by God even if it occurred outside of a woman’s body) and then directly implanted, I don’t feel her argument is strong enough to call that wrong. Ultimately, God still does decide whether the embryo will implant successfully, or not. So, her argument about how it’s wrong to take matters into one’s own hands to have a child, isn’t quite accurate knowing that God still does get a final say. I imagine she’d be fine with someone who wasn’t blessed with a child, deciding to take matters into their own hands by adopting.

[@rnbham39]

I think the point is that those embryos who are not chosen to be implanted are discarded and that is where the sin is...It's ending a life, not taking matters into your own hands. Obviously no sin in adoption.

[@balletktmc]

Actually, no, she specifically said that even if those factors are controlled for (such as only implanting one, not freezing any additional embryos etc) then she still says it is morally wrong.

[@dco8886]

Not the same. I agree with her.

[@carolinetwebaze6023]

You are right God has the ultimate yes to which ever life is made no matter how they are made. Do we also blame the miscarriages on mothers? Besides God has revealed this knowledge to Doctors. It’s up to us to us humans to use all the knowledge that God has given us for good.

[@balletktmc]

@@carolinetwebaze6023 That’s a very good point, Caroline! thank you!

[@rw3452]

So wait, you’re saying it’s wrong at all times? A bit of a dispassionate talk from people who seem to have little emotional skin in the game. Feelings aside surely technology could be used better without the issues involved. People are trying to creat life not destroy it like abortion? An unjust means to an end - Sean? So glad you both got what you want, great, anyone else, oh well too bad 🤷 ? The whole thing about the hands of a stranger is silly because is God not control of everything, all of of a sudden God is limited?

[@sueg2286]

"People are trying to create life, not destroy it".. Did you actually listen to any of this talk! Did you listen to Stephanie talk about how many children are killed in this process of producing ONE child for the couple involved !!!

[@rw3452]

@@sueg2286 if you knew anything about you’d know you don’t need to create loads of lives and destroy to create one. You just have to request and say you just want to create 1. But hey 🤷‍♂️ demonise a whole treatment. I don’t agree with how some do it doesn’t mean it cannot be used. But those with a full belly care for nothing.

[@TheVinylScene]

This lady has some extreme views on IVF. I would support any couple’s choice to use this tool if they’re struggling with infertility and it’s recommended by their doctor.

[@dvbibbs192]

Funny thing is she most likely used IVF herself to get pregnant.

[@sueg2286]

IVF is extreme, not this lady's views.

[@TheVinylScene]

@@sueg2286 thankfully your opinion on this isn’t popular

[@deborahthompson4567]

I found some of the remarks thought provoking. We have been blessed with 2 children thanks to IVF and a lot of prayer, we have a third embryo which will be thawed in the next couple of months for transfer. When we embarked on this very painful journey, we prayed long and hard about what to do, and decided on IVF, we also decided to limit the number of embryos the doctors would be allowed to create, and the decision was made at the start that whatever numbers of embryos that we had would be transferred and given the same chance that the other siblings have been given. It has not been easy but there are ethical and moral ways in which to walk this road, and while its not popular to limit the number of embryos created, or to limit the number that will be transferred this was the only way we felt we could proceed with assisted conception.

[@SeanMcDowell]

Thank you for watching and sharing.

[@leluyaa]

Painful journey indeed.. Me and my wife went through it after a lot of prayer as well. In the end it cost us a fortune with no result. I could write about the pain and countless tears but it's all behind us now, God has been with us GREATLY in the healing process 🤕❤️‍🩹 I am so incredibly happy for you and your family, GOD BLESS YOU 🙏🏼❤️‼️

[@sidepot]

@@SeanMcDowell Wow, that's all you have to say in response Sean? Atrocious

[@sidepot]

Don't be swayed by theses two knuckleheads. They are just two pieces of shit.

[@courgette3401]

@@sidepot agreed.he is normally sensible. She was horrid horrid horrid.

[@Msannab7]

Thanks for talking about this! I’ve always thought more light needed to be shed on IVF, it’s not all sunshine and rainbows like people think. But i think there are potentially ethical ways to go about it…

[@SproutFlower-n7f]

This is a thought-provoking video, it makes me think. But the speaker as someone who has not personally experienced infertility, I do not feel this lady fully understands the pain or the value of it. Second, as Chinese, I think the comparison of a one child policy with IVF is really two totally different moral situations. It is not apple to apple and cannot be applied to the "rights to another human being" argument. Because of these two premises, I think her views are quite narrow and only based on her "research."

[@sarahsays194]

I went into this video not thinking ivf was bad. How is something that was made to give us the life of a baby bad after all? God gave us science, so let's use it. As the video progressed I realized how faulty my thoughts were. Thanks Sean for this video! Doing great work!

[@snow24121]

The arguments in the video are also very faulty. Yes there are grey areas which need to be explored scientifically and philosophically but a lot of her arguments fall flat if you just think them over a little bit.

[@teresastramandinoli6629]

@@snow24121agreed they are faulty… she makes it seem that we can simply manufacture a human and it’s guaranteed when that is not the case if you fully understand the process. There are critical elements of the creation that no human can control - even with IVF! So who is in control ?

[@miked2674]

IVF is close to my heart as both my daughters were conceived through IVF, 16 and 13 years ago. I found some of Stephanie's language strange. Calling an embryo a 'baby' and also calling them children. Also saying that by freezing an embryo you are denying them something. My second child was from a frozen embryo from our 1st round of ivf. I'm pretty sure her existence hasn't been denied anything. In fact she wouldn't even be here were it not for IVF. We were incredibly lucky and blessed that both ivf cycles worked first time. I was not a Christian at the time, but looking back I feel God was in the whole process. All embryos formed were implanted and none were left over or destroyed. Some key questions were not covered. Eg is IVF a God-given gift? Are other medical treatments God given? Take to an extreme, would you not give someone medical treatment because you are denying them a natural course of the illness? No, of.course not. If God is in ultimate control, he must know what embryos will form and therefore which ones are successful? He knew my daughters names way before they were conceived. And I thank God every day that they are here 🙏

[@kait-01751]

When watching this show, I don't think the question was about treatment for a given problem being "God-given". I believe the question is should we treat humans as commodities?

[@westleybenson1188]

​@ourwovenburrow6491 In the United States our health care system pretty much treats people as a commodity already so I wonder why I only hear about that with regard to this issue from most Christians...

[@sueg2286]

Someone came up with the label "embryo".... I submit that child is more appropriate, as a description of the first stages of life of a CHILD. The language you are using, is the language of a person who needs to believe that they are correct. It takes great moral courage to admit that one is wrong. Manufacturing a child and brokering them as commodities IS wrong. You know something is wrong, often by how it looks in the extreme cases...Gay men using a surrogate, then breaking up whilst the woman is pregnant and demanding the baby is killed...this all comes about because we have created life in a test tube and for sale...You are in denial.

[@kayeevans4639]

I so agree with you.I had my twins by I've 26 years ago in the ukand now 2 much loved grandchildren. I'm so grateful to God and the wonderful national health service doctors❤🙏

[@katiaray3516]

I am so thankful to God for giving us the technology of IVF. It’s a miracle really and I feel very blessed that there is a chance for my husband and I to have our own children, so I’m very excited to be starting this in 2 weeks. It took us a year to think through the ethical implications, it is not easy at all but I got my message in prayer that we should proceed. Infertility is a difficult journey, the key is to remain humble, understand that we are not owed anything, including children. They are the most precious gifts, and for some of us this is not in our life plan, some need to work for this gift. At the end of the day, no child is born without God’s blessing and I don’t see how you can get punished for following God’s will to bring new children into the world. As I see it, the key is to pray for guidance from God, have good intentions for no harm, take responsibility for your actions. This includes - don’t overstimulate to get a high number of embryos when you only want 1 child and the ovarian reserve is high, don’t discard embryos that may be viable just because they are not the highest quality etc. God bless us all!

[@SevereFamine]

Doesn't sound like a response to a prayer, sounds like a demon. I would stay far away from IVF if you profess to be christian!!!

[@SevereFamine]

God did not give techonology for IVF, that's dumb. The idea that a pre-requisite for it is masturbation which is intrinsically evil should tell you a little bit about the morality of the act!

[@sueg2286]

You have learnt nothing. God has not given you the technology for IVF. Heard of Satan? It is typical for someone who wants to do what they want to do, to ignore the TRUTH.

[@miketisdale7341]

That is like saying God has given us the technology of DNE and DNC. IVF, DNE, and DNC all rely on previously founded underlying technologies such as surgery, microscopic surgery, and other previously established medical standards and processes. I’m sure you would agree that God has not given us DNE and DNC. Why do Christians, in the desire to have and raise children, run from adoption? Have we not been given the greatest example in that God would adopt estranged sons and daughters to himself in Christ? - Ephesians 1

[@rebeccarichardson9094]

We have been recommended IVF just this year and infertility has been with us since we married and just doing very brief research, I found alot of ethical and moral dilemmas. So even before infertility became alot more real for us as time has gone on, it is something that we aren't comfortable going through. To be given an option to possibly have a child through this method - and refuse it for moral reasons, is as difficult as infertility has been as a journey. We also seem to be offered less sympathy because we turned it down. We both always wanted children, alot of them, to be raised in the Lord. IVF seems to be the only option offered to us and there is nowhere I can go with the pain of saying no to IVF as so often its the natural ending of infertility. Even within the church. Thank-you for the video.

[@anabberries]

Adoption is also an option and option that is supported in scripture. Adoption has no moral qualms.

[@valebartoli8113]

IVF is not an option for Christians. Discarded (or freezed) embryos is the same thing as abortion. Check NFP (Natural Family Planning) or adoption, and always trust the Lord. God bless you

[@melissafriedrichs4716]

You have to make your own decisions based on your conviction. There are plenty of the church (real Christians) that would support you in pursuing IVF and you don't have to discard embryos. I just want to encourage you that you are not out of options and you and your husband need to seek the Lord's counsel and decide for yourselves. I hope the best for you, especially peace in your decisions whatever you they are

[@tlkey5173]

Unpopular opinion. I have to do IVF. I’m going to talk to my pastor. Ending embryos life or aborting the chance of them is not an unforgivable sin. God knows your heart. He sees your struggles. I think it easy for people to sit and judge if they haven’t had these issues. Sin is sin. A spouse can look at a woman and that’s adultery. Doesn’t mean he’s not going to heaven. It was finished at the cross. Repent and have faith. It’s not like you’re sleeping around and using abortion as a way to not be responsible. Another thing you can do is limit the number of embryos and try to carry them all to term. This issue is also saying heavily on my heart, and it’s bc we take our relationship with our God seriously. One of my dearest friends is 69 and a retired pastor’s wife. Very conservative. At a conservative Presbyterian church and none of my Bible study friends who are grandmothers and moms now have once judged me. They are praying for it to work bc they know I will bring another child to God.

[@dvbibbs192]

I know that orthodox jews live life with very strict religious rules allow IVF so as long it's a married couple doing it to help be fruitful and with their dna. Maybe try low stimulation IVF where there's 3 embryos create instead of 12+. Good luck!

[@food4thort]

If a Christian opposes the destruction of embryos via abortion, then logic demands they must oppose destruction of embryos via IVF. Further if abortion is to be made illegal for everyone then logically IVF should also be made illegal for everyone. Some Christians oppose abortion but not IVF without recognizing their theological inconsistency.

[@denniswakabayashi9000]

Christian doctrine does not say that the fertilized egg or early embryo is already a human being.

[@caramia4483]

Wow, thank you so much for covering this topic. I have had questions and concerns for several years about the morality of various fertility treatments and could never find a solid biblical voice speaking to this topic. So good 🙏🏽

[@SeanMcDowell]

You bet. Since it’s so helpful, please consider sharing. I want to help Stephanie get the word out on her EXCELLENT book!

[@caramia4483]

@@SeanMcDowell For sure! Just ordered her book and will be sharing this video and her work with my friends and family.

[@sidepot]

@@SeanMcDowell Moral arguments against ivf from the Bible? You mention in the video that slavery is immoral. Where in the Bible did you find this? You mentioned the story of a husband and wife that were married and discovered they were related (half siblings unspecified). Yet your god, the alleged designer, had full brothers and sisters marrying one another for generations. Then again after the alleged flood with Noah's children. All would have had to marry direct relatives and as the story goes: full brothers and sisters marrying and conceiving. Your god ordering Joshua to go back into the battlefield and kill every living thing including women and children. Yet sometimes they kept the virgins alive and brought them back with them. Care to speculate for what purpose? The list goes on and on with your idiocy and fallacious beliefs. This book and your guest are trash. Heaps of shame upon both of you. Atrocious

[@plasmatikification]

In my opinion, this should be a matter of personal convictions, especially in the case where there are no excess embryos produced in the process. The argument against IVF on the basis of "defying God's will" by using technology to overcome a physical limitation does not hold water to me, as we are literally using a technology to overcome the physical limitations on our ability to converse with one another over long distances.

[@kait-01751]

Respectfully, it sounds like the crux of the argument is actually against treating humans as commodities.

[@plasmatikification]

@@kait-01751 The argument can be easily made for adoption. I don't think we should make blanket statements on whether or not hopeful parents are considering their potential child as a human being.

[@sueg2286]

@@plasmatikification Potential children (Conceived) ARE human beings.

[@elainecosta1657]

My husband and I are trying to conceive for a while we are waiting on the Lord. I was convicted with this and another Allie Beth interview on that. It can be painful to know that but I want please God! I don’t want idolize wanting a baby more pleasing God! I be seen so many that do Ivfs tried many times and doesn’t work both couple get frustrated..

[@SeanMcDowell]

Thanks for sharing Elaine. I’m glad this was helpful and will lift you and your husband up in prayer.

[@juless7302]

Ugh how people just throw out, “if we can’t conceive, we will adopt” is nauseating. The purpose of adoption is not so people can grow their families who couldn’t otherwise. Adoption is not without its own ethical malaise.

[@heatherrhoda5242]

Ugh! How TRUE that is. Speaking from experience. Adoption can be good, and many times is, but there's a lot to be said about the ethics of it, especially by the money-makers in it.

[@sueg2286]

An excellent talk by Stephanie. I agree with everything she has said. What a God loving beautiful woman. Intelligent and easily understood, just excellent.

[@ajnorton9295]

I always felt that if pregnancy didn't come naturally then I would try to adopt. I never felt IVF was right, or for me. I'm always willing to learn though. I think many people get offended because we all love someone who was a test tube baby, and we wouldn't want life without them. It's a little tricky for sure.

[@carolinathomas1112]

Mmm yes but even when it comes to adoption, the fact that you get to pick and choose what medical diseases would you accept and which ones you didn’t is as inmoral as the views for IVF.

[@ifeadebara4621]

There are many parts where I laughed watching this. Clearly, the two individuals in this conversation don't really understand what IVF is nor do they understand that medical science is not as developed as they make it seem. Let me just announce to you, no medical doctor can make a single baby no matter how much they try. This is why in IVF cycles, not everyone is able to produce mature eggs (no matter how much medication you receive), not every egg fertilizes, not every fertilized egg becomes a blastocyst, and not every blastocyst implants in a healthy womb. So go fight with God who formed those babies in the first place. God is in control and not one child can come into this world outside of God's will. Every single child, whether in the womb or in a tube is formed, created by God. You should use more scripture in your conversation though, I can't really see this being a biblical conversation. Was Mary not a surrogate for Jesus? Why is surrogacy also wrong?

[@pavlinakom]

Let alone, I also.feel and think that also God is the one, who allows in the end for the IVF to succed. You can not have a child, without God's permission. Could she describe an ethic IVF please? A one that doesn't harm ebryos at all. Thank you.

[@dvbibbs192]

I would like to hear Stephanie's own IVF experience but she will never share that.

[@idadelanghe]

Enjoy this I think it would be tremendously more helpful if you could weld and research the principalities behind this. For example, when someone has an abortion they are making a blood covenant with Molock. Are there any spiritual covenants or agreements that are being knowingly or unknowingly entered into through IVF?

[@SK-ou4gt]

horrific hateful analogy with slavery and of course these haters invariably bring in the Holocaust.

[@TheJacksonsATL]

I am a Christian. I am an IVF mom. This video is so bad, this video lacks first hand experience, and actual voices of those who go about this journey ethically…and to compare my son and other babies conceived by ivf to those who were conceived by rape?! I didn’t chose to be infertile…but I am thankful to God for IVF. You guys chose the most extreme cases and painted everyone with it. Why not talk about how to go about ivf. This video is so harmful. 😢 you have no idea of the pain this journey brings…no idea.😢😢😢

[@BobEhAnderson]

Totally agree, they either ignorantly or, more likely, willfully exclude the fact that IVF can absolutely be done in a morally acceptable way. It kind of seems like they are just looking for clicks or something. Technology does not have morality, it is not evil/good in itself, it is how the technology is used that makes it either good or evil. As Christians we are commanded to be fruitful and multiply and subdue and take dominion over the earth. As far as I’m concerned, IVF (done properly) is fulfilling both of those two commands!

[@cjdflkj]

Why don’t you? Did you even listen to any of the points beyond 5 minutes?

[@disciplesofJesusChrist]

In the end it’s worth it having a baby even if it’s hard and last resort and people say stuff against ivf. A human is a human after all.

[@anabberries]

Ivf kills the extra unwanted babies, I don't think God intended babies to be born like this. Why not adopt or foster to adopt instead?

[@yeshalloween]

@@disciplesofJesusChristyou didn’t actually listen did you

[@TO23818]

The Church also needs to address the idolatry of family as opposed to only putting that burden on individuals/couples. The Church “others” and excludes singles, childless couples and even empty nesters. Church life often exclusively centers its operations around “family life” and the rest are often left out which definitely signals a hierarchy within the body of Christ and a validation of a person’s apparent importance through marriage/children.

[@jjjxoxoxo]

Christian couples able but choosing not to have a child is sinful. Ivf is sinful, though i understand unused embryos that never get to be born is just as deadly as natural conception with 23 million miscarriages occuring every year naturally.

[@peterfox7663]

While the discussion about the ethics is pretty good, the "right to develop alongside its peers" seems far-fetched.

[@sueg2286]

Really!. Only if you assume that that is it normal and good NOT to develop alongside your peers. Which seems a very strange view to hold.

[@fairyserum]

I just wanted to ask a question for this video. Have not finished it but it is rather interesting and relevant to a assessment topic that I am focusing on. What denomination do you guys fall under? Would greatly appreciate it.

[@philmiller2010]

No one has a right to children.

[@mtnshow1]

Since it was conspicuously omitted from the broadcast, I present the real reason why Catholic apologist Stephanie Connors believes in the immorality of IVF. Donum Vitae, 1987, Section I subsections 2-6. John Ratzinger (et al).

[@MegananaOwl]

Thank you so much for speaking on this topic! It is always better to be informed and make your decisions before an emotional situation arises. For example, my husband and I both made the decision that pre-marital sec was not an option while we were dating. Did we face temptation? Absolutely!! But we were able to withstand it because our pre-decided convictions that were based in what we learned from the Word of God. We were aware of the potential of temptation, and therefore we prepared for it ahead of time! Christians need to be prepared to face for a whole slew of temptations, and the emotional crisis of infertility is one of them.

[@rw3452]

Cheers steph for giving no ideas for option for men… blind spot maybe?

[@juliemartin258]

So are children that were adopted ( which is very expensive) just “objects” that were bought/sold?!?

[@sueg2286]

Someone HAS to care for unwanted children, so unless we want them raised in institutions, there is no other way for them to be cared for. This is totally different to the situations described in this video.

[@lynghee159]

Husband was impotent but didn't hear you address this?

[@mnelisi]

One thing I’ve realised about American Christianity, being from South Africa, is that you guys deal with, advocate for or debate a lot of stuff that for the rest of the world it’s usually personal conviction issues. And being on the outside looking in, you can see how the day’s politics affects people’s ministries. My wife and I prayed and read up on this issue of IVF for 2 years and we didn’t feel the Holy Spirit lead us away from it at all. Luckily we conceived last year. But her pregnancy was not great, Drs said her second might be worse. The issue of surrogacy is very much on the table for when we try again for the second. All I’m saying is that everyone in the world knows American politics and how they permeate the church there, so we can see through that or take such issues with a pinch of salt

[@kait-01751]

In South African Christianity, do people desire to think biblically about all sorts of topics? Daily life matters as well as cultural ones? Or is everything subjective in the sense that it's up to each individual to decide what is right/wrong?

[@mnelisi]

@@kait-01751 South African Christianity? No such thing. There are 10s of millions of Christians here and I never tried to speak for any of them. What I’m saying is that your “desire” to think biblically is also many times motivated by political outlook and the two are so connected that many white Evangelicals can’t see it. If you saw it, white Evangelicals wouldn’t have been Trump’s largest constituency

[@kait-01751]

I believe I'm speaking to a Christian sibling here so while it's hard to convey tone in writing, please know I'm writing this respectfully and with concern for the body. Can you see the incongruence of speaking for "american christianity" and "white evangelicals" but not "south african christianity"? Do you not believe there are millions of Christians here, yet you are trying to speak for them? I don't understand this. Also, to rephrase my question, is christianity, to you, a subjective experience where what's right and wrong is determined by each person's interpretation of the Holy Spirit?

[@shokokrossi]

@@mnelisi As a german and a Christian, I totally agree with you. The white evangelicals have been polluted to the core. Largest Trump constituency. Unfortunately, made may Germans or Europeans either to want have nothing to do with the church or just confirmed their beliefs that the church is corrupt and fake. Shalom

[@shokokrossi]

@@kait-01751 Even in and Europe, that is exactly how it is conveyed in our news.( Mnelisi’s view). And we also call you” the white evangelicals, or the “ the Christians right wing group” and so on and so forth. All in German. And in voting for trump, many Christians’ here were so disappointed. The non Christians were happy because it confirmed their view and belief

[@stormy7709]

What is the strongest evidence that god exists?

[@melaniedouglas6294]

I love your clear thinking. I would be interested in your comments on the ethics of different types of contraception eg emergency contraception and intra uterine devices. Thank you

[@sidepot]

@Excuse me but There are plenty of men that have reproduced very late in life. You think that ED is part of your god’s design? You are seriously delusional. Excuse me but…..you’re an imbecile.

[@sidepot]

@Excuse me but Well you certainly didn’t make yourself very clear. Check any of my comments and there is no way to misunderstand my stance against this nonsense and the two morons in this video. I’m glad you disagree with them and speak out against them. Just make your position more clear next time, doofus.

[@sidepot]

@Excuse me but I don't give a shit. Doofus

[@denniswakabayashi9000]

Vote Trump If you want free IVF.

[@adeniranm7647]

So, essentially the argument is: 1) Human persons have intrinsic value (they are subjects not objects). 2) We have a moral obligation to treat other human persons with dignity and respect (as subjects not objects). 3) The practice of IVF devalues human beings, by treating them as commodities (objects) which can be manufactured, bought, sold, or traded. 4) Therefore, IVF is an immortal practice. Is that a correct summary?

[@rustuslandon5612]

It's obviously immoral. What God do YOU serve?

[@dvbibbs192]

Stephanie's eggs are dust at this point. The woman went through IVF with most likely donor eggs but she will never admit that since it's bad for her business.

[@Lilkahuna77]

I am a Christian and I just don’t agree with this. My husband and I got married then tried for a baby got naturally pregnant but at 7 weeks baby was stuck in my fallopian tube but found my ovarian cancer I didn’t know I had. They did surgery and sadly removed both my fallopian tubes and ovary that contained the cancer so IVF is our only option for a baby. Yes I still believe in a miracle. But I believe as Christians it’s okay to go through ivf to bare your own children even if a “3rd party” is involved it’s a way for us to be a light in these doctors lives and be apart of something God has his hand in. Im very thankful for ivf in todays world ANYTHING can be used for good or bad even the Bible. Bc you believe IVF is outside of Gods design does that mean with what happened to me I’m just not meant to be a mom and bear a child?? I know pastors who have gone through IVf and give God all the glory just bc it might be outside of His design doesn’t mean Gods hand isn’t still in it and apart of His plan.

[@sueg2286]

I believe you are in a delusional state about IVF because you are desperate for a child.

[@miketisdale7341]

We certainly know there are some who for a myriad of reasons are unable to bear a child in this fallen world despite having a godly desire to do so. My wife and I could not for over four years, and in hindsight we thank God for this because it drove us to adoption and then later after that to fostering and then adoption again. I can understand the desire to bear a child of your own, because this is what we dealt with in my home. In the mindframe of “the hands and feet of Jesus“, there are many who will never consider fostering and/or adoption because they have had a biological child. The church needs those who will. Do we not have a better example of this in that we all have been adopted as sons and daughters to God in Christ? Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. Romans 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” So rather than the deceptive and evil industry of IVF, follow the example of your heavenly Father and adopt a child who needs you in the same way as you needed adoption in Christ.

[@denniswakabayashi9000]

​@@sueg2286 ONLY a nutjob would believe a literal speck of cells (early embryo) is already a human being! All 50 states allow IVF. Hundreds of thousands of embryos are created and destroyed each year in America for assisted reproduction and research and no one has been convicted of murder.

[@JeremyKu]

As a religious Jew, I found this very interesting on several levels. I think one of the main differences between the view expressed here and the Jewish approach is the issue of having a right to a child. For sure, this (very understandable) feeling exists among Jews too but for Torah-observant Jews, it's not a question of right at all but rather, of obligation. The first commandment in the Hebrew Bible (to all humankind) is to be fruitful and multiply. We don't have the right to do so - we are commanded to do so. This view naturally influences the approach to IVF - for sure there are restrictions and proper ways to do it (and other factors related to the general issue of having children) but in general, we are encouraged to utilize this wonderful (miraculous?) modern technology to fulfill God's command. Regarding the issue of reducing the number of fertilized embryos (whether frozen or not), Judaism considers a "human life" to be viable after 40 days and a 4-5 day-old embryo consisting of a few cells is certainly not a "human being".

[@sarahsays194]

Hello! I have a question for you. When you say a Torah observing Jew what does that entail exactly? What laws are ignored and what laws are considered valid for use in modern times?

[@JeremyKu]

@@sarahsays194 There are 613 commandments in the Torah, some of which are positive commands (to actively do something e.g. "Honor your father and mother", Observe the Sabbath Day") while others are negative commandments/prohibitions (e.g., "not to eat certain foods - pig etc., not to murder, steal etc.). A "Torah observant" Jew tries to adhere to and perform as many of the 613 as he/she can. It should be noted that no-one can ever perform them all - some are only for certain people/only in certain places/only at certain times/only when confronted by a certain situation. Part of God's covenant with the Jewish People involves them being faithful to the Law He declared as eternal. On a more philosophical level, the commandments are aimed at improving us as individuals, thereby making the world at large a better place. No laws are "ignored" but obviously, some of the commandments (e.g., the strict instructions on how to treat slaves well are no longer valid. It doesn't mean the law has changed, just that it's not practically applicable. There is obviously no commandment to have slaves - that was just the reality in the world at the time the Law was given, hence the need to care for their welfare).

[@sarahsays194]

@@JeremyKu Gotcha. Thanks for answering!

[@kait-01751]

Thanks for your perspective. How does Judaism handle the text of Psalm/Tehillim 139:13-16? Especially v 16 that describes G-d seeing our unformed bodies and writing our days before any had come to pass?

[@sueg2286]

Your view is very sad, and wrong on all levels.

[@timmytime23]

Dr Sean, I want to say you are one of my favorite apologists. I appreciate your extremely thoughtful views on topics. And your willingness to empathize with, while confronting, opposing viewpoints is very admirable. I subscribe to your channel and try to watch ever video you release. With that being said, the viewpoint proscribed by Stephanie in this interview is the most despicable I’ve seen you platform. As someone in a family/marriage that has gone though IVF, twice, I have some experience. We spoke with and interviewed many doctors and hospitals about the process. It is embarrassing how many blatantly untruthful (or ignorant) claims and assertions that she made during this interview. No doctor is recommending putting in 5 embrios at a time. No one. We had to beg our doctor to put in 2 both times. And that was the most they would allow, even though they recommended only one. Her correlation of a person struggling with being conceived from rape, to that of one being born into a loving family using science and technology, is intellectually dishonest. Both of my children know they were born through IVF. And they know Mommy and Daddy did it in a safe and responsible way for them to have a life. And they are grateful for it. Her comments about freezing a 5 day old embryo (that is smaller than a pen dot and is weeks away from having a heartbeat) as being “inhumane” are just plain asinine and ridiculous. To think that a 5 day embryo has the capacity of consciousness and feelings, long before having a heartbeat, is absurd. If everything she believes about conception and the value of unborn life is true, then God is the greatest abortionist/killer of unborn children of all. Far more than half of all conceptions end before the mother even knows she was ever pregnant. And another half don’t make it past the first trimester. Although I vehemently disagree with the late Christopher Hitchens in this point, this is the example that he is referencing when he says religion poisons everything. How someone who is as good at heart as Stephanie probably is, can be so cold-hearted and evil in her assertions is because her version of religion/theology tells her so.

[@funnylittlething808]

Freezing embryos isn't about how it makes the embryo feel, it's an unnatural process that artificially manipulates what would naturally occur in the womb. A child is meant to be free to develop from the moment of conception- that's what she's referring to. Freezing an embryo comes under the umbrella of objectifying children and choosing when and how a person develops (stunting the growth of a person for convenience essentially). That's what is inhumane. As for God being "the biggest killer of all", what's wrong with that? He is the giver and taker of life, we are not. We sin against God when we make ourselves God. Our actions are not at all comparable to the actions of God when we are His creation, and He is the only moral authority over His own creation.

[@sidepot]

@@funnylittlething808 Wow, you really are a delusional moron selling this 'god can do whatever the fuck he wants' bullshit. You people are atrocious

[@sidepot]

@@funnylittlething808 God can do whatever he wants including slaughtering women and children but you also want to claim rights for embryos being free to develop naturally? You have to be an idiot. What are they using to brainwash you so deeply?

[@user-qx6ly1fm9s]

If you implanted two at once- did you have twins? Or did one human die in the process?

[@gabyajibade2923]

I have a really important question…so babies made from ivf how are they accounted for in terms of names written in the book of life considering they weren’t necessarily in God’s plan from the beginning but instead a result of a sinful act?

[@TheJacksonsATL]

Ivf is the process of putting sperm with an egg. The same process that happens within a fallopian tube. IVF is bypassing the tubes for women who may have damaged tubes. Once the egg has been fertilized and reached the blastocyst stage (as it would happen in your tube) it is placed back into the uterus. Nothing can make an egg implant or grow ask anyone who has failed transfers. If anything ivf moms are front and center to see the miracle of life. So you think God isn’t aware of IVF? Or that he hasn’t given man the ability to perform such a thing? Do you believe something can go on without God knowing about it? God gave man the ability to do plastic surgery for war vets during WW1&2 and what started off as something innocent has turned into the industry we have today. God gave man the ability to treat cancer so should those who have cancer just throw their hands in the air and say welp, this is God’s will for my life so why try and fight it just because some people have sinful practices in that space? The presenter is taking the most extreme cases, as most Christians do to make a point. For those of us in this space it is rare to get 11 embryos (unless you have pcos) I barely got 2 smh. In my ivf groups some people have none. Ain’t nobody transferring 2-3 embryos at a time because clinics don’t even allow that. Some of her points are valid and should be explored, but that can be said within any space. The fallenness of man will always show itself. There are definitely ethical ways to go about ivf. I know because we did. It just depends on the person and their conventions.

[@pavlinakom]

You don't have to worry for that. Christ loves them equally.

[@rwalt862]

I am relieved to hear that you have taken into consideration the experience. You have no idea what infertility is like until you go through it! We have been waiting for over 3 years for God to bless us with a child. We did IUI but have not done IVF, and the main reason is the expense. We would rather adopt. This episode gave me a lot to think about.

[@sueg2286]

It is sad that your main reason for not doing IVF is the "expense". The expense would be the last issue on my list of concerns.

[@rwalt862]

@@sueg2286 And because people can be educated and change their minds, I wouldn't do it two years later.

[@dannyqin7118]

Hi Sean, any chance you can start uploading these interviews on Spotify? I would love to be able to download them and listen while driving.

[@pavlinakom]

Could you say, what are the things that can be done, that can sanctify, as she said, IVF? Ι agree with everything she said,BUT the oursourcing to a third person. That is helping, mediating, not outsourcing really. Thank you.

[@LavenderValley777]

What about Christian marketing business working for this IVF hospitals along with other hospitals... I think it's wrong but other people i know are working to market IVF hospitals

[@Past_Tense_]

I am a Christian and value some of the ethical concerns that has been brought up. Both my wife and I have decided to pursue IVF. I will have to respectfully disagree as the logic this implies would also mean condoms are an issue but in fact, they are not. If you look at the other side of the coin, Jesus, Adam and Eve also bypassed the normal covenant that marriage brings for children.

[@cathyphillips9120]

As an RN and Christian woman I believe IVF is a good gift from God to my son and daughter-in-law. They tried to conceive several years without success. There were blocked fallopian tubes. They went to a Christian doctor who harvested sperm and eggs, Then fertilized one egg in vitro then implanted that fertilized egg. They have a healthy loving christian family. IVF is their gift from God, answer to many prayers. What about tissues grown in labs for burn victms, then discarded? Early embryonic tissue does not have heart, lungs, brain just like other tissues grown on labs that are sometimes discarded.

[@nomen6]

Can tissues grown in labs for burn victims turn into humans if the right conditions were in place?

[@funnylittlething808]

An embryo is a name for the early stage of development of a human being. It is a person. A piece of my skin is not a person.

[@merrygrammarian1591]

Discarding tissue does not end the life of an individual. "Discarding" a unique human in their embryonic stage is completely different. An embryo is not a potential human. It IS a human, just in an early stage of development.

[@cathyphillips9120]

Any tissue can change with introduction of stem cells. em·bry·o = an unborn or unhatched offspring in the process of development, in particular a human offspring during the period from approximately the second to the eighth week after fertilization (after which it is called fetus). A fertilized egg is a clump of dividing cells until it develops a brain, heart and lungs. Discarding a clump of cells not used for IVF is not the same as aborting a fetus! During IVF - Once the embryo reaches the blastocyst stage, approximately 5-6 days after fertilization, it hatches out of its zona pellucida and begins the process of implantation in the uterus. It has no heart, brain or lungs. It is literally a clump of cells.

[@jarenvarmer3774]

Would you like to trade your whole life to cover a burn victims arm? It's all well and good when it's someone else's life right? What made your life more valuable than theirs?

[@jjjxoxoxo]

If God reveals that the 5 day embryo has no soul and that the soul is given at some other time, I am sure everyone will say i knew it, but intelectually convinced ourselves to know about something with not one clear bible verse advising us.

[@pavlinakom]

Great the comment about Restorative Medicine. Great, really. Can you make a more extensive session about that? Thank you.

[@SK-ou4gt]

oversimplified reasoning as an excuse for hate. sperm = not human, egg = not human - put them together in a petri=dish - BOOOOOOOOM - a human who becomes an excuse for haters like this hater to hate.

[@adamwalker2377]

Since the birth rate has collapsed since we rejected the female role defined by the same religious worldview that informs opposition to abortion, infertility must not be ALL that bad.

[@kensey007]

Glad to see a pro life proponent addressing IVF. I always felt it was inconsistent for people to protest abortion clinics but not IVF clinics when perhaps (?) far more embryos are destroyed via IVF.

[@sidepot]

Fuck you and your bullshit religion. You worship a god who slaughtered women and children. Suckling babes included. A god who killed the first born males of Egypt and then made a holiday out of the event. Seriously go fuck yourself. Imbecile

[@dco8886]

@@sidepot ayyyyyy you again LOL! Go see a therapist and put down your phone.

[@dco8886]

I didn’t knew too much about IVF and thought it was no big deal. Until I learned more about it and it is troublesome really. It’s crazy how disturbing the reproduction issues are in this country (and the world I guess). Either people get pregnant put of the blue and have an abortion or embryos are created and then discarded or experimented on. Judgment is going to be really heavy for us humans. We’re really pass due on that.

[@sidepot]

@@dco8886 You write at the level of about a 9 year old. What the fuck is wrong with you? You still know nothing and you are obviously too young and too fucking stupid to know anything about reproductive issues. Grow up a little bit first before you start passing judgment on things you know nothing about. Meanwhile sit up to the table and have yourself a nice big fat cup of shut the fuck up.

[@courgette3401]

No embryos are destroyed. It is a blastocyte until day 10 to 12. Any such destruction occurs on about 3 or 4. The human body fails to allow the majority of these developing cells to implant in the womb because they are not quite perfect. In ivf the dr makes this same call. Any healthy balls of cells are used or frozen. My cells were put back into my body at the 15 cell stage. I don’t think people realise how early on in development these things happen.

[@jaim0368]

I continue to be deeply thankful for the beautiful theology of the body that our Catholic brothers and sisters uphold. I'm curious, does anyone know if there has been any research done on potential attachment differences in children conceived naturally vs via IVF?

[@jaim0368]

@Excuse me but There is lots of great research into the effects of religion. The channel Inspiring Philosophy has some great videos that cover the meta-analysis of the research into religion vs secularism, intrinsic vs extrinsic religiosity, etc. Great question!

[@jaim0368]

@Excuse me but I'm not sure off the top of my head. It's been a minute since I looked into it. But he's pretty active in TikTok, too, if you want to engage directly with him.

[@jaim0368]

@Excuse me but I guess I'm still not sure what the relevance of that is to my original question. I think research into all these things is relevant for a potential parent to have informed consent. Humans are pretty terrible at foreseeing unintended consequences which is why scientific inquiry shouldn't be stifled just because it may hurt someone's feelings.

[@jaim0368]

@Excuse me but Why do you believe that studying attachment styles is dehumanizing? What have I said that makes you think I maintain a double-standard in this regard?

[@courgette3401]

Oh I’m sure ivf children are cherished at least as much but I suspect even more than naturally conceived children. I have experience of both.

[@ethanmaxwell4424]

i want to note the marked lack of direct scriptural references. when scripture is mentioned a large degree of personal interpretation is inserted. I am frustrated by this. I will ask god myself what is right for me and my family, he knows our hearts and desires.

[@Eikenhorst]

Interesting topic that isn't much discussed. It is true that many embryos are killed in the IVF process. But in the case of infertility, doesn't it matter that with IVF you get one or two living humans, even at the cost of maybe tens of embryos that didn't make it, while the unfertile couple would never produce any living humans. So yes, you could say potential life is killed in the process, but in the end the fact that more life is created due to IVF must count for something too, no?

[@williammemecraig1357]

Excellent video; Stephanie is the greatest

[@peterfox7663]

At times it seems her message is IVF is wrong. At others, it seems the message is IVF is not ideal. If it's the former, I disagree, especially when it's a married couple who are considerate and purposeful when they go through the process. If it's the latter, I would agree. An analogy: No one would say cutting off a diseased or damaged limb is wrong, but it also would not be the go-to remedy - it is typically a last resort.

[@mayibongwe12]

Great interview. Many thought provoking points to consider. It is clear that she has thought through this very carefully. The odds of any one couple conceiving through IVF are (as I understand) less than ideal currently. This is one of the reasons why many couples have to go through the process multiple times before they can be successful. I would think because of the stress and pain this may cause that many people would pursue the restorative medicine route she references as a first option. My guess is that for many couples who go for IVF, it is probably the only route realistically available for them to conceive. I get the sense that for many of these people, Stephanie's model will be unconvincing/unfulfilling.

[@liene93]

Good I can find so many christian videos on IVF on KZbin! It can be hard to turn to anyone with this subject. I can agree on everything when it comes to IVF, but I have a harder dilemma than most, I think.... I have a terrible genetic disease and my children risk 50% to get the same genetic condition, that means they will have tumors growing on their nerves in the future, and this disease is a slow killer to come in the world and nothing to joke about. Therefor I and my husband were offered IVF. The cruel thing with it is that those embryos who have this genetic condition will be destroyed :( and only the healthy ones will be put inside the womb. I don't know whether I should pray to God that our child will be healthy even if we do it the natural way, or pray to God that all embryos will be healthy. I saw someone else comment that they decided the amount of embryos there will be created during IVF which means they will use all of the embryos in the end - and that seems moral to me cuz none of the embryos will be destroyed, but I just can't bear the thought that if our embryos would have this genetic condition that they'd be destroyed :( adoption seems like the best option, but I truly want our own children who have pur genes. Adoption would be cool too, but I want at least one child that we have naturally. Am open to receive prayer, since God already promised we will have children - I just don't know if God meant our own, cuz God's ways are not our ways.

[@sueg2286]

Then do NOT have children. It is not a right.

[@leftykiller8344]

This was a fascinating discussion. I agree that IVF in it’s current form, is not good for the moral and ethical reasoning that was mentioned. My only have two things I would push back on. One is the Trinity analogy to conception. Because to say that bringing a child into the family outside of that is wrong, means that adoption would be wrong. My other pushback would be about people choosing to have children or not. Let me start off by saying that I believe that life starts at conception, and that I believe abortion is wrong for multiple reasons. I agree that anything can become an idol for people, including things like marriage, singleness, and having/not having children. God also made us an intelligent species and there are completely natural ways to lower chances of conception. People have been doing that for thousands of years, partially because pregnancy and delivery used to be incredibly dangerous for both the child and mother. Those would be the only two things I would push back on though.

[@sueg2286]

Adoption does not mean that the couple adopting become that child's biological parents. They are agreeing to care and love that child as if it were their own, but it is NOT their own offspring.

[@leftykiller8344]

@@sueg2286I completely get what you’re saying, as my oldest child is adopted. I had to find and re-listen to that part of the podcast to even remember what I was referencing there. lol Upon listening to it again, a retraction is merited on my part. The argument put forward in the podcast was referring only to how babies are made. I misunderstood the argument and conflated “making a child” with “bringing a child into the family”, because, to me, the end result is the same.

[@fhengal]

Minor pointː Just as a principle or an axiom for Biblical Christian ethics for human beings, I question this reference to the Trinity as a prescriptive rubric. On the one hand, I agree with the vast majority of what is said in this video. On the other hand, I think it may be over-reaching to say that all human action (or all human interaction/relationships) is supposed to directly or indirectly mirror the Trinity in some way. Should we really think that way about all of human life and action? If so, why? What evidence do we have that some kind of pattern resembling the Trinity is hard-coded into God's creation, whether in us as His image-bearers or in other products of His creation? This is a vastly broader topic in application than this video (though perhaps simpler as a stated principle), but to what extent should the Trinity serve as a model and an analogy for discovering ethical practice for humans? We're supposed to image God in ethical character (and perhaps in other ways, too), but clearly we are not God in nature/essence (nor even functionally in) mirroring all particulars of His being and how He relates to Himself. So, I wonder whether the analogy to God's being is being taken too far here. Is Connors just making ethical claims based on an aesthetic of symmetry or similarity to God in a way (i.e. human reproduction) that is actually unnatural to human beings? Does being made in the image of God somehow necessarily require human beings in their nature or in their interactions (even with each other) to reflect/image the Trinity in some way(s)? I'm skeptical of such a claim without good arguments and/or proof. God does explicitly command us to "Be holy as I am holy," but does any of the Biblical text anywhere imply that we are to "be Trinity as He is Trinity"?

[@Jesusluvsmeandyou]

Thank you for having such thoughtful conversations!

[@jomr4249]

The only thing I don’t agree with this is she keeps calling an embryo a child… you are “freezing a child in time”… but children aren’t created until an embryo and sperm come together!

[@snow24121]

An embryo is what gets created when an egg and a sperm are combined. That is literally what an emryo is.

[@ihamburgerz]

There should be some more thought put into this topic from a Christian point of view. I was a test tube baby and frozen for 2 years, and it's what really got me interested in science. Though I agree that when it comes to explaining a Christian stance in gray areas such as this it is good to play it safe, I think it would suite those who are interested in this topic to be presented with more of the uncertainties present. This way we can delve deaper into the issue and really parse out the details within IVF that are more controversial to Christians, and this could possibly allow for this practice to continue in a Christian manner.

[@sidepot]

I think Christians should keep their laws out of the bedrooms (and the kitchen as per the way she described getting pregnant) and they should stay the fuck out of science.

[@ihamburgerz]

Yas, queen. Gimme the loot

[@kait-01751]

It wasn't discussed here but there are other resources that delve into IVF as it relates to the theology of the body. Check out Christopher West and Nancy Pearsy. Sean touched on this briefly but Roman Catholics tend to have a more developed and articulated view of the body as well so looking for Roman Catholic resources could also further shed light on this other moral area of IVF

[@sueg2286]

There is NO way to continue IVF in a Christian manner. Please watch the video several times so that you absorb the information presented.

[@gyoparpavai3663]

That is why our clinic implants merely one embryo and they help to create just a necessary few 1 to 4 little life. It is likely to loose some naturally during the process, like they are not implanting or there is a miscarriage (God`s will), but the rest 1 to 2 is usually born as there are not too many embryos created. Infertility is painful and people who is not experienced it, hardly can imagine the pain. Yet I believe, if we should have any babies (according to God`s will) we will have, if not, non of them will be born.

[@sueg2286]

You state in such a non chalant way about about ONLY losing a few CHILDREN during the process.

[@chinwesdiary9175]

Stephanie you're saying rubbish. IVF and other medical treatments are God's gift to man. He still knows their names even if its IVF

[@SeanMcDowell]

Stephanie never said God doesn’t know their name. And she goes out of her way to say that all humans are valuable regardless of how they’re conceived. Her arguments deserve a better response.

[@henrythecat3094]

I don't think ivf is bad for couples dealing with infertility. I think ivf is wrong when is used to pick the gender and also when they "discard bad embryos"

[@miketisdale7341]

Adoption is good for those dealing with fertility.

[@ManuS-rm7jk]

I don't agree with all her points but she is a very smart woman.

[@steve3847]

This woman compares parenthood to slavery. I’m completely baffled at this.

[@miketisdale7341]

Please give the time reference. I know she did not liken the two in the way you are alleging, but for some reason when the word “slavery“ is used to make an analogy in principle, some people lose their minds.

[@daniellanewman5439]

My question is has anyone looked into the fact that masturbation is done in the process of obtaining sperm for ivf? From a Christian standpoint do you both believe that is sinful? Do ivf specialists allow sperm to be retrieved without masturbation?

[@TheJacksonsATL]

Men can elect to be put to sleep and have a procedure to remove sperm without masturbation…

[@slumbermoon]

Playing God and idolatry come in many forms in these last days…

[@worldview730]

Great research & presenter you are , you have the gift of explanation & discernment, & make this hot button topic more understandable.

[@rnbham39]

I really appreciate this entire conversation. As an RN in the critical care environment, this kind of thing is so out of my wheelhouse. I wholeheartedly agree with every point. SO so awesome. Great points beyond my knowledge base. So grateful to have been informed. I always have believed that no matter how a person got here, they were all authored by God but the list love, lust, violence or technology...we all have worth because we all were created by God. I'd highly recommend the book, Nine Months with Cerian By Sara Williams...it's not really about abortion per se but about how one woman's experience finding out she was carrying a child who would never live. INCREDIBLE, life changing book. Thanks ya'll!! EXCELLENT talk!!

[@SeanMcDowell]

I’m so glad to hear!

[@sidepot]

You sound like yet another brainwashed moron. Well done 👍

[@isabella805]

I really appreciate this conversation however I think you miss another really critical perspective on why these forms of conception are wrong - and that is the donor conceived child's. As a person adopted as a baby, I am all too aware of the trauma that is inflicted due to separation from your family of origin, growing up without genetic mirroring or knowledge of family history, and having to "pretend" for the sake of your adoptive parents that you are their natural child, denying your true identity and hiding your pain. To intentionally inflict this trauma on a person is morally wrong, yet people turn a blind eye to this and focus on the infertile couple's pain which is really not comparable.

[@SeanMcDowell]

I can understand why this would be painful and really appreciate you sharing. My sister was adopted.

[@ineedmoney737]

This is a perspective I’ve never thought of! Thanks for sharing!

[@SeanMcDowell]

@@ineedmoney737 You bet

[@sueg2286]

Excellent comment. I agree too.

[@MrDreadEnd]

I think the strongest message is the ideal circumstance of a mother reproducing with a father and there being immense value in the loving relationship producing life. While not restricting or denying the value of person that is the product of unideal conception we shouldn't be quick to engineer an outcome without natural circumstances. There is a quick solve to the half sister half brother marriage, exchange of dna documents or agree not to reproduce due to the risk of mental illness. Gattaca is a great film to watch for those thinking about tube children. I watched it again recently and it seems relevant in its context.

[@sidepot]

Then there is the alleged god design of two humans populating the entire earth. Who did Adam and Eve's children marry and procreate with?

[@MrDreadEnd]

@@sidepot other people could be early incest could be something else as there seems to be indications of other people. Just to be clear I'm open to more literal or more metaphorical understandings of Adam and eve.

[@sidepot]

@@MrDreadEnd How do you have a potential of being more literal than what the text says? Being open to more figurative is understandable. Otherwise it sounds like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. The major problem with literal or metaphorical is when do the readers make that determination? Over the centuries it has shifted majorly. Literal six days or metaphor? Four pillars of the earth? Foundations of the earth? This bullshit never stops shifting.

[@MrDreadEnd]

@@sidepot ignorance, I don't know how to determine whether genesis is written literally or figuratively for myself so I'm open to interpretations and the reasoning behind them?

[@sidepot]

@@MrDreadEnd Ultimately I could give two shits about an ancient book full of nonsense.

[@drtertiusventer26]

This was a most upsetting interview. The most important is that I noticed that Stephanie Gray Connors has never struggled with infertility. Her approach to the problem and pain that infertility causes is totally unsympathetic and cold. I have no doubt that this interview has caused a lot of deep pain, even confusion in couples who have been helped with IVF. To use extreme examples of the misuse of medical technology is important to point out but should never be generalized. It is unfair and inappropriate to couples where the technique is used in a thought-through loving relationship between a husband and wife, where religious conviction and ethical aspects were prayed through. A couple seeking ethical doctors and have a limited number of embryos and have decided from day one that every single embryo will be implanted in the wife though not all at the same time. I am disappointed that Sean McDowell, whom I truly respect, and I was a student of the Biola Apologetics program, that he did not challenge her on the numerous poor arguments that she put forward.

[@SuperSaiyanKrillin]

"The most important is that I noticed that Stephanie Gray Connors has never struggled with infertility. Her approach to the problem and pain that infertility causes is totally unsympathetic and cold." With all due respect this is just a poor argument and doesn't at all refute Stephanie's ideas. The same argument can be made about Christians who are against abortions and homosexual acts - would you dismiss Christians holding these views because they aren't homosexual or have never had an abortion ? Also just because something is "prayed through" and "thought through" doesn't determine the truth or morality of a given act - which as a Dr i'm sure you are well aware

[@drtertiusventer26]

@@SuperSaiyanKrillin 'just a poor argument' It was not put forward as an argument but as criticism being 'unsympathetic and cold'. Just as Christians and everybody else should be sympathetic towards homosexuals and woman confronted with unexpected pregnancies whether one agrees with it or not. Sympathy and sensitivity are vital in dealing with people who might struggle with these issues. '"prayed through" and "thought through" ' Again I was making a plea for sympathy towards people struggling with infertility. I did not address the issue of truth. I did not address her poor arguments (someone else in the comments did). I just expressed my surprise that Sean McDowell did not challenge her or at least put a disclaimer that he did not agree with all she said. The impression was that he fully agreed with her. The reason I commented was the lack of sympathy for the deep pain people experience on many levels for whom infertility is a reality.

[@saragrace1258]

Thank you for expressing disappointment in this discussion. I have been struggling to find any Christian’s discussing this in a way that would relate to my situation. When I saw this long video I figured here I would find some guidance. But I found more of the same narrow minded view points. Most of what she said I DO agree with so to show what I mean I will touch on my situation. My husband and I are each others one and only. We’ve been together over 20 years and I am 34. That is a blessing. He was diagnosed with stage 4 pancreatic NET cancer 5 years ago. Even through the devastation I’ve seen God working to make this evil inside “better”. We had frozen sperm the day before he was to start chemo. We only had time to freeze one sample because I had a miscarriage that very same day and the chemo could not wait. We had enough frozen for 2 insemination attempts but were told we had a 5% chance of conception with each attempt. We just found out I am not pregnant after our first attempt. We have one more sample. I’m faced with trying one more time and likely not becoming pregnant, or with using Ivf. I have always been against Ivf for many of the topics she mentioned (all but the conception not being during a sexual union), but I never thought about it deeply until being in this situation myself. We’ve been praying on this for over a year. I’m starting to feel that God is reaching out an olive branch and I should put my pride and judgments aside and take it. If we use ivf thoughtfully and carefully we may still not fall pregnant, but the odds would be better. If we created only as many embryos as I feel comfortable implanting and birthing at once (likely 2), we do not freeze any, we do not intentionally kill any, we do not sell any, we do not donate any… then in Gods eyes would that not be us using technology for good, to make another disciple of Him. Would it not be similar to us having never used drugs in the past as to honor our bodies, but now my husband using many drugs daily to extend his life and ease his pain? If anyone knows of any discussions that talk on this, I’d love links. God did not want my husband to have cancer, nor did he want anything to effect our fertility. Is it wrong to cautiously use Ivf?

[@user-qx6ly1fm9s]

The IVF industry kills humans though. Whether it’s implantation and one or more embryos don’t survive, the amounts of embryos that don’t survive the process in general, or killing embryos to reduce amounts- those using the industry are contributing to human killing. Yes infertility is painful, but does that justify the means to get what couples want? Not everything the medical world has introduced is moral, whether it works or not.

[@mytreasuredcreations]

​@@saragrace1258 I don't know where you are in your journey, but have you ever considered God 's sovereignty in your circumstance? Have you read any books from Joni Earckson Tada? She speaks on God's sovereignty and suffering. ❤

[@Jenna1814]

I am a little shocked that I listened to this because this is something I have struggled with. From what they are talking about that is not my experience. My IVF process was much different.

[@Michaela417]

Ok so I agree that its wrong with how they go about IVF by reducing the preagnancy and experimenting with the embryos. But I still think it could be ok If it was made more humane.

[@TheJacksonsATL]

IVF isn’t bad…bad people do bad things with ivf…I am an IVF mom. I made it clear that we (my husband and I) will be having all of all babies 😊

[@sueg2286]

There is nothing humane about ANY of the stages of IVF and it is not possible for it to be made humane.

[@sueg2286]

@@TheJacksonsATL You have closed your mind and your ears, in order to protect your sinful desires.

[@theologymatters5127]

I love her!

[@Tylerstrodtman]

This is all so interesting! What i thnk would be interesting, to steel man the opposing view, would be applying these arguments then to adoption, i.e. choosing characteristics, the "right" to a child, the concept that God's design for children to be born into marriages, etc.

[@SeanMcDowell]

Maybe we’ll follow up with a debate or something like that…

[@ChalkboardCreativeHomeschool]

@@SeanMcDowell the Center for Bioethics has a KZbin channel about this very topic and more. Thanks for this episode. Absolutely wonderful interview and excellent points. You handled a sensitive topic very well and thoughtfully.

[@ineedmoney737]

@@SeanMcDowell I would really be interested in that debate!!

[@Jennifer.villezcas]

Congrats on the 100k!! Love the message, biblically grounded as always

[@SeanMcDowell]

Thank you Jennifer!

[@sidepot]

He has 100k subscribers listening to this bullshït? How completely appalling.

[@walterquick6180]

I sought out this video after the February 2024 IVF ruling in Alabama.

[@Good.Vibes.and.Golf11]

Yep, me too Walter. Did it help?

[@snow24121]

You should find a better video lol

[@maximummilitiaimmaculataem883]

No.

[@MrDreadEnd]

Honestly the rights conversation was sensible but alienating down the line. The idea that an embryo has the right to age seemed like a weird point to make. I don't emotionally acknowledge like a week old embryo as a person in the same way I understand a latestage embryo or a child or a grown human but I acquiesce that I can't accept abortion as a practice as I have no say so on what is fully human or not so I can't with certainty say abortion is not murder. With that being said it seems weird to move through this conversation with a concept of rights associated with a not fully grown person. I'm not arguing removing rights from non fully grown persons but there is a stretch in my opinion regarding how we are understanding the concept of rights amongst people. Reading the bible rights seemed very subjective to the type of person or circumstance the person is in. The bible doesn't seem to comment on what are inalienable human rights beyond genesis(fruitful, domination, etc), just what is good.

[@marvalice3455]

what is the practical difference between aborting an embryo, and leaving it frozen till it dies?

[@MrDreadEnd]

@@marvalice3455 I think the difference is there in that one is attached to the mother directly and the other is not both are killing one is more direct one is indirect. I'm curious if one would charge a mother who doesn't promote the health/development of her unborn child with murder. Death by neglect seems different though marginally. It doesn't matter both are bad. This is challenging for me to answer emphatically because again I share no immediate connection with a fresh embryo it is also my understanding that many embryos die before the parents are even conscious it is there. I'm not sure God was concerned with how we process the messy journey to life on earth this way. Beyond knowing he knew us before we were born unborn life doesn't seem to be a primary concern. I hope someone will rebuttal while I would never be party to an abortion I wonder if it's necessary to put an unborn life on the same weight of a born life to communicate the moral, biblical/spiritual shortcomings of abortion.

[@peterfox7663]

@@marvalice3455 Is someone advocating for leaving frozen embryos to die?

[@paulajames6149]

There are some harsh words in this comment feed. This is a very interesting topic. Love hearing all the points. They all make sense but I need to think through it some more before making any conclusions. Very complicated and delicate topic for sure.

[@SeanMcDowell]

Good for you

[@Jesus-is-Salvation]

Powerful interview. I just had a cousin go through this process and was wondering about this.

[@angelromann]

Thanks for having this conversation, found it to be though provoking and definitely a chance to read and learn more about it 🙌🏼

[@ter8330]

If a person is born completely dead, then to seek to hear is a sin because UTLIMATELY if God WANTED them to hear, HE would have CREATED them TO hear? Am I understanding that? Please save the "we are talking about life argument" It isn't different A woman is unable to conceive A man is born completely blind or deaf Give this a shot..

[@ObiWonGinobili]

Christian theology believes in the fall of man spiritually, and from the dawn of humanity in the Garden have "fallen short of the glory of God," and inherited a 'sinful nature', so in some cases theologically speaking someone who is born blind or deaf, can be accredited to the fact that we are sinners by nature, not only by our choices, sin in Christian theology is not only a verb, but also a noun. There can be other reasons I can think why someone maybe born blind or deaf theologically speaking. But Are you positing that it is somehow unjust for God to deal with who He created, however He wants & wills to? In Christian theology God is a just God, and He can not sin. Also there is no such thing as a 'person born completely dead' thats a contradiction. Something would first have to be alive in order for it to die, so your question requires that you determine when human life actually begins, which is at the moment of fertilization.

[@ter8330]

@@ObiWonGinobili Born completely DEAF, not dead. Misspelling. Also, God can do what He wants. I was merely saying that no one I know esp in my circle or at church has a problem with anyone who is deaf having sugery in order for them to hear. If they can't hear, God created them that way. If they cannot have children, God also created them that way. Why is surgery/procedure ok for one situation but not another? Be content with what GOD has allowed.

[@ObiWonGinobili]

@@ter8330 Well I think it's a illogical to think scientifically speaking that an embryo or even a zygote, has the same value as an organ like an ear, or the same value as eyes. Those organs don't have a capability of becoming human because the nature of their biological material does not dictate to grow into a human, where as a zygote and embryo do have that potentiality. So the genetic material is of a different fundamental nature. So as I said in another comment IVF is essentially like the StarWars movie, freezing human life forms ala Han Solo, or more recently in Mandalorian with bounty hunting. So it's very sad, and I wouldn't call it a merely a 'surgery' as if this is constituting a hip or knee replacement. That's like calling abortion, a "medical procedure'' only to guise the fact that it's a form of killing/terminating human life forms. IVF is a form of idolatry and only proves Romans 1, "They worshiped created things, rather than creator God."

[@ter8330]

@@ObiWonGinobili You are missing the point entirely. As man IS, let it be. Born dead? So be it Born without the ability to have children? So be it. God is SOVEREIGN is my point. Let what IS,..... be.

[@ObiWonGinobili]

@@ter8330 If someone is born with a bodily defect (cleft palate for example), it's not sinful for them to seek medical surgery, so your logic is not adding up. Humans have free will God ordained that as well. Also medical knowledge/surgery is likely ordained from God, that type of common grace can be within his sovereignty.

[@mombythesea2426]

Yes. It's sinful

[@dvbibbs192]

So Stephanie has sinned.

[@elizabethryan2217]

Great discussion. 👍 Thank you both 🙏

[@lordwilmore8775]

Thanks for doing this interview!

[@dinahlopez6408]

Very interesting

[@Kara-jc1hd]

Okay! I’m impressed! I’m happy you were able to touch on this! This is the only way to consistently defend that life begins at conception in the abortion debate. Now, I consider myself pro life, but I do not hold the view that life begins at conception. I would say that it begins when there is brain activity. Therefore, thankfully, I don’t need to deal with the IVF issue. But it’s nice to hear some consistency from the pro life people who believe life begins at conception. I would say, though, that your position is a painful hill to die on. I wonder if it’s needless…

[@sarahsays194]

Hello! Genuine question for you. When you say you believe life begins when there's brain activity, are you referring to it being a human or personhood?

[@PilgrimStanding]

Short answer. It depends. Premise 1. Embryos/Fetuses/Babies/zygotes are people from conception. Do they kill embryos, or create embryos and leave them indefinitely stored in cryo until they kill them...then no it is not morally right. If they fertilize one embryo and then implant. Then imo that is a similar process to natural conception and implantation. I would suggest it is not morally wrong. This is before looking at the show. I'll see if my views are adjusted afterward.

[@cogirl1465]

I agree I don’t think it’s wrong if you adhere to scripture.

[@joakimkarlssonable]

What's the difference between killing a fertilized egg and an unfertilized egg. Both are alive and have the potential to become human adults. Why is it ok to kill an unfertilized egg but not a fertilized one.

[@peterfox7663]

An unfertilized egg in and of itself has no potential to become a human adult. It's genetic material, not a human life.

[@pavlinakom]

The egg is a cell. Not a person. It is not nice, but still no bad.

[@sueg2286]

An unfertilised egg is NOT a human. A fertilised egg IS a human.

[@silkwurm]

I’m not sure why but something about this video was harder for me to watch than most of your other videos. I guess if Abraham and Sarah had access to ivf then there’d be no judaism. It’s pretty similar to ivf so I can probably guess the answer but it would have been interesting to hear a question about artificial insemination.

[@madcatz990]

I think you have that backwards, if Sarah and Abraham had access to IVF there would be no Islam

[@sueg2286]

That is wrong too. IVF and Artificial insemination leads to abuse of life. A strange but illustrative example...Cows are artificially inseminated every year to produce a calf, the calf is the unwanted by product, and killed, denied ANY of its mothers milk straight after birth, and the mother screams for her calf until she has to give up....then she is robbed of litres of milk twice daily all of her miserable life. This cycle continues until she is of no use to the dairy industry at age 5 and killed for pet food....Natural life of a cow 25 years... Dog breeding, abuse, artificial insemination of dogs for breeding, making lots of money for breeders, horses the same. Artificial insemination leads to gay men and gay women raising children with two parents the same sex, etc etc. All kinds of evil comes from IVF and Artificial Insemination.