Jaap van Zweden - Ashley Fure Filament Debut @ NY Phil

[@michaelsteel8059]

My god. What a lot of arrogance.

[@remomazzetti8757]

As Sibelius once said: "no one has ever erected a monument to a critic. "

[@AdamantSeraph]

Yeah! But in the same time we all hope that the spirit of Hitler died and that we don't get to ser many fuhrers arround anymore. Still, some conductors "suffer"...and look like an errected cock during pages written for serenity and calm.

[@billinrio]

Somebody should.

[@zeeschelp]

@@billinriobuild a monument for negations?

[@S_Morgan44]

Who hurt you? Because I'd like to shake their hand.

[@ewmbr1164]

Every cliche of a critic marvelously outperformed. Max Reger is reported to have sent the following note to a critic: "I have your piece in front of me while sitting in the smallest room at home. Soon I will have it behind me." Enough said.

[@zeeschelp]

i applaud you for sharing your opinion

[@matts9064]

Finally someone who heard the obvious. The NYP has been struggling for years! Thank you for your honesty.

[@vanessa7347]

What do you think of Dudamel?

[@jack.e.langdon]

From the National Review article: "You could never fool an ordinary New Yorker like that. If a cab driver or a plumber felt like listening to a traffic accident, he’d know where to find it. The cultural elite, however, are willing to pay for it - and actually want to pay for it. It is their badge of betterness. Van Zweden may not have a feel for classical music, but he is giving his audience the orchestra they deserve." Somehow, I don't think that the CEO of a tech startup in the upper west side ought to be speaking on behalf of the "ordinary New Yorker." Appealing to an imaginary aesthetic populism makes for weak musical criticism, Mr. Gelernter.

[@cb885]

Who's the ordinary New Yorker? You? Dude, musicians are not normal everyday working people. You are not normal. You are the weird part of society. Yes, working at a tech company or at a startup, or having your own business is VERY ORDINARY in New York. And what you call "weak musical criticism" is actually hilarious. If you don't have a sense of humor.. that's on you man. What about spending

[@fingerhorn4]

This kind of pomposity went out (thankfully) with the ark. Even in the 1950s and 60s, this kind of "review" was already considered old school arrogance populated by people like this prat.

[@punksterbass]

your assumptions about "Fure not knowing Beethoven" are absurd, to be honest. that, combined with this edgy, almost teen-like delivery makes you sound like someone who actually doesn't know what they're talking about but don''t worry, the actual content of your review confirms that notion.

[@jack.e.langdon]

Ashley Fure currently teaches at Dartmouth, has a PhD in music from Harvard, and was a post-doctoral fellow at Columbia. I think she perhaps might know something about Beethoven.

[@cb387]

@@jack.e.langdon As a Dartmouth graduate, I can testify that Dartmouth profs with Harvard Phds in the humanities don't know shit . Some examples (there are many more, I could write a book). - Once I had to correct a prof who said that a church with a enormous depiction of Christ in the absides was a "great example of Islamic art". Islam forbids representation of human figures, including Christ. - Another time I had to correct a different professor who said that ancient roman laws required women to be completely covered, while Tacitus and Livius, and Plautus, among many other Roman authors, describe Roman fashion for women as very liberal. - Once I had to correct a philosophy professor who misquoted Aristotle's doctrine of substance and accidents. He ended up confessing that he never studied Aristotle in school. All these three profs hold Phds from Harvard, and were ignorant in the very fields they studied. In the US, most programs do not require students to study the major influencers of their disciplines. Philosophy students don't have to study Aristotle and Kant, Art History students are not required to study Michelangelo, Religion students were never taught that Islam forbids representation of human figures, and so forth. The coursework is not comprehensive in college, or masters, or Phds. That's called postmodernism, and it's the reason why Europeans like myself laugh at the ignorance of Americans.

[@jack.e.langdon]

@@cb387 Hi. I'm happy you've taken the time to share your autonomous, personal anecdote. I am sorry that you had the unfortunate experience of having to deal with these issues, but perhaps you could have enough humility to acknowledge that fact that people are occasionally wrong or mischaracterize historical details. I would point you to your invocation of postmodernism as a notable example.

[@cb387]

@@jack.e.langdon I cannot speak of all disciplines. But I can speak for philosophy and modern literature. Postmodernist philosophy, for instance, arises from the philosophies of Bertrand Russell, Wittgenstein, Ayer (and a few others like Goodman). It's not only a new way to do philosophy, a renunciation to having an overarching view of the world, but a rejection of all philosophies that did that in the past. This is not my personal view, I have read and studied these concepts, written in very clear terms in the works of the philosophers I mentioned. There is no class on Aristotle at Dartmouth, for instance, precisely for this reason. He is considered outdated. So, pay attention to tell others they lack humility before knowing them. That in itself lack of humility. But I confess that I do not know enough about music. I never pretended I did. But having seen what I described happen in the visual arts, philosophy and literature, I can well believe that this lady didn't study Beethoven. Besides, I was there at the performance, it really sucked. It sounded like the the score of a low budget movie on demonic possession.

[@cb387]

​@@jack.e.langdon Besides, I was unfortunate enough to meet several people who work in the music field (composers, musicians and so forth). Most do not know anything about any other art form or cultural discipline, other than music. The average level of ignorance is well below the professors I quoted from my Dartmouth experience, and most seem to be unable to think critically or logically. A basement level intellect. From your comment you sound like a composer, musician or musicologist, lolz. So, I highly doubt you know anything about postmodernism in philosophy or literary criticism, no offense. You said that the reviewer is a member of the music elite, and so he cannot represent the thought of the average american. You are wrong. Cos the amount of $$ you make or your degrees don't influence your hearing capabilities. I am a normal person who lives and works in NYC. I hated that performance. I must be deaf. But it seems that the people who love this piece have a profession or academic background tied to music (musicians, musicologists, music intellectuals etc), while normal people, who don't work in music and are not "artsy", they all hate it. Or would not pay for it. Why is that?

[@mm-dn6oe]

I also find it strange to say that truck drivers prefer Beethoven and in the next breath complaining that the "cultural elite" prefer Ashley Fure, with this indicating some kind of problem. This is literally just not true, Truck drivers do not exactly listen to Beethoven en masse, it is more often the "cultural elite" that listen to Beethoven. Sounds like Tucker Carlson or something.

[@mm-dn6oe]

I don't understand how you could use the idea that the Rite was "simulated" barbarism while Filament is "genuine" barbarism. That's just arbitrarily assigning words to things and using it as an argument - certainly there's no objective elements in the music to point to that puts the pieces into those different categories that aren't subject to different interpretation. Someone 100 years ago could very easily have said the Rite of Spring was genuine barbarism and it would have exactly the same validity as the argument used here.

[@tannerharrodguitar]

But like, who are you? What makes you part of New York's "musical elite"?

[@danielgelernter6189]

Oh, I'm just a music-lover -- I make no claims to any particular status. Your music is quite good, by the way. Nocturne, Canvas, Gaudium -- first-rate.

[@qumarmadal6910]

An even better question.. how are you?

[@imazi643]

Inb4 tonal music is the only "good" music to your precious ears

[@billinrio]

An excellent review. As one who often sits shaking his head while other audience members are on their feet hooting, I like you sardonic style.

[@wouter6659]

Residentie Orchestra, Orkest van het Oosten, Residentie Orchestra, Netherlands Radio Philharmonic, Antwerp Symphony Orchestra, Dallas Symphony Orchestra, Hong Kong Philharmonic Orchestra & New York Philharmonic..... And you are calling yourself a 'Music Lover'????? Stop talking, start crawling back into your own afterwards. Besides: most important: Maestro Van Zweden is conducting the New York Phill like maestro's like Bernstein & Mahler did before him. And you somehow forgot to mention that, calling yourself a Music Lover? Oh wait: YOU JUST DIDN'T KNOW!!!! Enjoy walking the black carpet of shame!

[@saubrezn]

How can americans deal with Beethoven. You have no idea 😂

[@Joozt112]

hahaha

[@rodneyboehner3007]

Sorry to inform you, but the NYPO hasn't been good since Toscanini.

[@wavechamber]

I wonder why this man hates Ash Fure's music so much?

[@matts9064]

Have you heard it?! It is dismal!

[@pientje2007]

And Jaap....

[@jefftornick1786]

Because it sucks. I used to use the MyPhil subscription to go to just about every Philharmonic concert (and I still go to almost every Met production) but I finally decided about six months ago that I’ve given up on them. Until they come to their senses and knock it off with the complete garbage “new music” and Van Zweden is gone I’m completely done with them

[@WalterTaiebComposer]

I read your review yesterday on a friend of mine who's a conductor in Finland. It started quite a long thread. I obviously agree with everything you said as you can see in the video I did based on the concert preview. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gJXOm5ZoerGfgcU

[@danielgelernter6189]

I discovered your channel a few days ago -- I think your Fure & contemporary videos are great. I also think that if concertgoers are told often enough they can stop liking contemporary music, they'll eventually stop pretending to like it.

[@duwir5959]

Lars Vogt would ne a right choice for beeth 5.

[@duwir5959]

Sorry, be the right choice

[@pardaq24]

are you even real

[@ctfamily40]

I cannot tell whether or not this is some misguided skit. Are you for real?

[@janlotichius7949]

A failed musician. I feel sorry for hm.

[@circiter2411]

Too much snark for such paltry personality. Criticism is a difficult practice. It should be a balance between love and the desire to help improve whatever is not good. But love should be what you sense most. It will be what will attract an audience to the criticism. I do not detect love here, I do not detect enthusiasm, nor a desire to help improve things. I only detect a need to prove himself witty and knowledgeable. A desire to exploit other people's failings under the impression that pointing at them will make him shine. Well, here's the news, Daniel. It most definitely does not!

[@kristupasbubnelis1746]

What an arrogant, mindless nonsense you just said here.

[@tristanraissherman]

LMAO dude. Delete this.

[@michaelsteel8059]

And again one of the many critics that our world is apparently full of. How boring to listen to yet another arrogant critic who has clearly earned his spurs by watching and listening on the sidelines. Fortunately, there is also KZbin where this kind of arrogance is apparently the order of the day. Wasted time listening to this pathetic display of amateurism. I am now waiting for someone who really understands business, at least I can learn something from that.

[@richardford509]

Great review.

[@danielgelernter6189]

Thanks a lot! Much appreciated. Carnegie opening next week promises to be better.

[@hectorberlioz1449]

@@danielgelernter6189 What a bullshit....!

[@michaelsteel8059]

Richard Ford, let me guess. You are a cab driver?

[@hectorberlioz1449]

@@michaelsteel8059 who the fuck are you?

[@hectorberlioz1449]

@@danielgelernter6189 You have the knolledge about running a symphony orchestra like an amateur. Under Jaap the NYPO will develop as the foremost and best orchestra in the US. And yes Gilbert is a very mediocre conductor....