Comparing some WW2 Naval rule sets

[@PaperSmiles]

GQ3 is a lot to look at, but it’s not that tough to play small games once you get used to the charts. The more stuff you want to add, the more complex it gets, but anyone should be able to pick up the mechanics very quickly when playing something like the Denmark Strait or River Plate actions.

[@CounterProductiveGames]

Completely agree. This is truly one set of rules that is as complicated as you want it to be!

[@mrbeast85]

For ships look at the 1/6000 scale from Magister Militum (formerly Figurehead range from Hallmark). They are surprisingly good for the scale although they are a little pricey for what you get. But they do allow you to have a pleasing game visually, but maximizing the space so you don't have the slightly absurd situation of WWII capital ships being an inch apart, which is a bit of an immersion killer.

[@NefariousKoel]

I'm liking GQ3. Although I printed off and mounted the optional 1cm=200yds ( 1/2 scale from default) turn and torpedo angle tools from their site in order to avoid needing more play area. Not gonna bash the others, just like the mechanics of GQ3 for the balance between detail and playability. With that d24 I mentioned not long ago the only issue I had (rounding the odd barrel down) is solved too. The pre-plotted movement is also simplified in doing so by Division, as recommended in the rules. So plotting larger numbers of ships is still doable without getting bogged down in movement plotting.

[@CounterProductiveGames]

Yep, GQ3 is still my preferred system as well. Not sure if I played moving by division. I think we just grinded out plotting all ships, but by division would be better!

[@fjellvross4603]

Sorry for taking this comment section out of it's sleep... Did you ever test/play "Naval Thunder - Clash of Dreadnoughts"?

[@CounterProductiveGames]

Don't worry about waking it up, I'm glad you stopped by. No, I hadn't tried the dreadnoughts version. In my mind, I'm sure it plays very similarly, just with a focus on WW1. Since I like this set, I'm sure I'd like dreadnoughts!

[@marcuscorder]

Well, this is cool.. I've had a huge Avalanche Press collection for years, including Leyte Gulf (the huge 2k piece game). And for the last couple months I've been collecting other systems, including General Quarters and War at Sea.. I've been comparing them all myself over the last few weeks, and thinking of getting topside minis, and other stuff too. I log in today, and you've got this video up, coincidentally. I'm not even sure why I collect any of it... My son just turned 6 and I don't have anyone else to play with much. I've got a ridiculous war game collection, and I pretty much just have them sitting on a shelf, waiting for the future I guess.

[@CounterProductiveGames]

my son is 17 and still has not interest to play :) So it's all just for me, but limited table space and limited time to play with all the games I have. But, I enjoy it all the same and play when I can.

[@j.allen.howard]

Hey there. Just now finding your channel as I start looking at Naval Tabletop Wargames. I wanted to take a quick sec and thank you for all you have done on KZbin and that I hope you’ll return soon. Your videos are awesome and I hope you are doing okay.

[@CounterProductiveGames]

Thank you so much and I'm happy to hear you enjoy them. I needed a bit of a break, but I think it's been a pretty long break and I should probably get back to it!

[@House-Atreides]

Thank you for the run down this really helped me make some decisions. I likely will choose the beer and pretzel version.

[@CounterProductiveGames]

Good choice, sometimes I'd rather just get a game to the table and play rather than struggle with deep rules!

[@jjsmallpiece9234]

The World War 1 version of General Quarters are also very similar - but obviously no radar rules. They are called Fleet Action Imminent

[@CounterProductiveGames]

I have been thinking about switching to ww1 just to lower some of the complexity in my naval gaming. WW1 seems like a good fit.

[@jjsmallpiece9234]

@@CounterProductiveGames The Royal Navy always win!! Its when we had a decent navy

[@CounterProductiveGames]

@@jjsmallpiece9234 I know which Navy I'll be playing then :)

[@shadowcat3163]

If looking for a WWI game try and find a copy of Avalon Hills Jutland from the 70's/80's. The counter sheets have all the ships in the battle in a top down view and plays like a Mini game. Matter of fact I have seen it played using minis in place of the counters. It also has a campaign game you can use to generate battles. Other older rules sets were Seapower III, Avalon Hills Bismark, and Seakreig

[@CounterProductiveGames]

Thanks for the game recommendations. I think my friend has a copy of Jutland. I'll check it out, thanks.

[@FeWolf]

I played Seakreig for years,and rated Ace, it is very complex. more than ASL, I would suggest Rising Sun Series ( Comand at Sea). is has flats and land, air, sea been around 30 yrs and you can use minis: , Vol. 1 in the series, covers the Pacific 1941-43. The boxed set now comes complete with the 3rd Edition Basic Rulebook (perforated for three ring binders) and the 2nd Edition Ship Data Annex enclosed. The 3rd Edition Scenario Book offers over 50 scenarios, from small ship actions, to carrier vs. carrier attacks, to midnight battleship encounters at Guadalcanal. Plus 140 ship counters (1/2" x 1") and over 280 aircraft counters and markers are included, along with a jump-start book to get you up and playing in less than half an hour

[@CounterProductiveGames]

Awesome, thank you so much for the recommendation!

[@FeWolf]

@@CounterProductiveGames if you like Starfleet Battle, you might want to check out Battlewagon by Amarillo Design Bureau

[@CounterProductiveGames]

@@FeWolf Yes! My friend has a copy of that and I'll be borrowing that for my next classic gaming game!

[@FeWolf]

@@CounterProductiveGames Awesome, I would suggest 2nd edition, it cleared alot of rules up. Looking forward to the podcast. 15.00 from wargame vault.

[@NefariousKoel]

Don't know if you've ever been interested in sci-fi starship combat but I'd recommend checking out 'Federation Commander'. It's a more streamlined version of the old Star Fleet Battles system. The power management, damage detail, and different weapon systems are cool. Marco Wargamer did a YT vid review awhile back if you're not familiar. It's hex & counter battles by impulses but with a lot more detail than that in something like Bismarck. It also comes ship data cards for two different scales so you can get more detail in 1v1's and smaller battles or switch to squadrons with the more compact scale without needing to change the rules (or play faster games). That similar GMT game in which you mark damage on the counters obviously took a lot of cues from SFB/FC. Although the GMT one looks to be on the simpler side of the bunch.

[@CounterProductiveGames]

I've seen it and picked up the starter rules, I just need to sit down and actually learn it. I liked SFB when I was younger, and a streamlined system would be great. I think the GMT game is Talon, I've looked into it, but haven't picked it up. I guess it's time for a Sci-Fi vid with the games I do have :)

[@przemekbozek]

Big thanks for the video, exactly the comparison I was looking for! Agree on how expensive the ships are. I'm not much of a visual guy and really like keeping distance more realistic - looked at topside minis but honestly, at a scale of 1:6,000 it's very hard to see the ships altogether, so instead I've started making my own generic counters (probably 2"x1") with generic symbols that I'll be able to use for all time periods (and sci fi). I've got a good system of printing and laminating my counters now and they stay pretty durable. Also printed off a generic hex board (again, laminated) so will be able to play on this one, with hexes helping me counting distance. Thanks to your vids I'll be picking up GQ3 (and possibly Naval Thunder) and Find, Fix and Strike for a quicker game (looks more menageable then No Safe Port I've already tried and more varied then Advanced Salvo from Minden Games). Seekrieg and Command at Sea both go too "charty" for me - I'm not a big fan of flipping multiple pages of rules. On the subject of Minden Games, have you tried their Battleship Captain? It comes with a full set of counters for period 1900-1945, so might be another interesting one. Plus, it's available on amazon at a reasonable price for a set (£17 game system, £15 counters) Also, big thanks for the Bismarck overview - I have Bomb Alley (Mediterranean) in the same system and didn't like it, especially flipping the pages for ship damage tracking and annoying "damage moving to the next section" rules.

[@CounterProductiveGames]

I have tried one of the Minden print and play from wargame vault. If you don't like the charts aspect, it's good. Ships take levels of damage which you can track with little counters and it plays fairly quickly. I have a video buried on the channel somewhere about it. I think I steered from it as I'm one of those that likes charts and ship data forms :)

[@przemekbozek]

@@CounterProductiveGames I've found out about Find Fix Strike specifically from your vid and really enjoyed the smooth gameplay. I think it might be a good place to introduce my girls to wargaming😜 For me a good balance is a system with around A4 page worth of charts and another A4 for a detailed Sequence of Play, and looks like both GQ3 and NT fit the criteria well, and with Fix, Fire and Strike I might be able to put the stats onto a really large counter if I'm determined😁 My birthday is coming soon, we will see if I can convince my wife something for naval wargaming is a good gift😁

[@CounterProductiveGames]

@@przemekbozek Especially if you point out the bonding time you can create with your girls!!

[@JMACCSArmiesOfMiddleEarth]

Great video. My club are defos in the simulation camp. Love GQ3 but we use 1/3000 scale as works well with the ranges and scales. Used the WW1 set they do to fight jutland once was and it took a full weekend.

[@bruceboyer8187]

We play a modified VarSea on a patio battle deck. 1/700 scale models. Mult evertthing x3. Scale is that the bridge is the actual size of the ship. Cause we like our models.

[@CounterProductiveGames]

That scale would be great, I could myself doing that for smaller games with just a few ships. And ships in that scale do look really nice!

[@bruceboyer8187]

@CounterProductive Games the Vat S models are marginal. Have 1/700 so qhy buy marginal q boats? Bought more 1/700 so nice models and fun n games

[@CounterProductiveGames]

@@bruceboyer8187 I'm just thinking about how much table space 1/700 would need for larger engagements, but I'm sure looks great with smaller engagements

[@chrisb.1116]

So many choices. What have you heard about Command at Sea?

[@CounterProductiveGames]

It is on the upper complexity, Not as much as Seakrieg, but not far behind. It's a little more involved, and more charts than GQ3. The ship data forms are also more involved than GQ3 and works on hull points for damage vs. the ship data forms boxes in GQ3. Good system if you are looking for more complex game.

[@thegrogshed]

To play minis on my table I'd need a 1:20000 scale. 🤣

[@CounterProductiveGames]

Time to bust out the magnifying glasses!!

[@robertmoffitt1336]

Hey, I have GQ3. Just got the Warlord Games Victory at Sea rulebook Friday. Just taking a peek at work, I'll catch the full vid later tonight after work.

[@CounterProductiveGames]

Let me know what you think. I'm not sure I'm going to pay out for the book at this time.

[@Bede0881]

All the ships are out of scale no matter the rules. The ships are representational anyway. You measure distance to a point on the model. It’s only a visual difference. Also, you can play any of those games on any size table. Just adjust movement and ranges. Again, the actual ship is only a point on the model, not the entire model itself.

[@CounterProductiveGames]

That is all true. Thanks for the comment, it's a great point to share! I might in the minority on this, but if the ships are too large and the table too small, it just doesn't look right. I can play it, but it will looks odd to me.

[@Bede0881]

I agree it doesn’t look very good to play say a 1/300 scale ship on a 6x4 table. But it’s a matter of taste and new comers shouldn’t come away with the impression that the rules are usable only with certain scale ships

[@CounterProductiveGames]

@@Bede0881 That is a very good point I hadn't considered.

[@kevoman2020]

What is the best for solo play?

[@CounterProductiveGames]

A good solo naval game that isn't mentioned here is one called "There's the 'effing Scheer" www.wargamevault.com/product/375836/Theres-The-Effing-Scheer?term=scheer, from the video, Victory at Sea would be the easiest to play solo.

[@RailRoad188]

Really helpful video! One little quibble: You gave WW1 too much credit for less complexity, you have wing turrets, casement batteries, too many different types of gun on a single ship, and most capital ships actually have torpedoes, admittedly torpedoes much shorter range compared to WW2.

[@CounterProductiveGames]

I guess that shows you how much I have not played WW1. I was just assuming it would be easier. Seems I'm wrong :)

[@garyclarkson5246]

What are your thoughts on War at Sea first version? I understand the only difference is the miniatures warlord games added.

[@CounterProductiveGames]

I can't compare as I don't have the full rules for either. All I've played is the quickstart rules for the Warlord game.

[@sanavkids4790]

I have only 2. 7mm warships but I still want to play this game,then I have to make paper ships, I also want to buy the rules 😢Oh god I have so much disadvantage

[@CounterProductiveGames]

As easy as naval wargaming can be to get into, it can be very difficult to get into. Good luck!

[@donaldcunningham2386]

I recommend you invest in some Davco or Navwar 1/3000 miniatures. Well detailed, and look great when you have painted them in camouflage and mounted them on small sea coloured bases. Gives you the effect of individual ships on a large sea.

[@CounterProductiveGames]

@@donaldcunningham2386 Thanks for the tip, i'll check those out.

[@marcusfranconium3392]

A question , has there been any collection editions combining Air , Sea and Land ? Ps i finaly got a hand on GQ3.3

[@CounterProductiveGames]

From what I can find, at the tactical level, the emphasis is always on the one and abstract the other things. For example, GQ3 has some air and land rules, but they are abstracted a bit. If you want a game that has equal detail for all three, you may have to scale up to an operational game like Empire of the Sun.

[@marcusfranconium3392]

@@CounterProductiveGames it could be fun to have a unified version , for grand scale play .a general staf and trickle down to single units . like the real thing a army staf , naval staf and airforce staf. cooperating together to achief an objective.

[@CounterProductiveGames]

@@marcusfranconium3392 Well, you could do that now,, GQ3 to play a naval landing game, once the units ashore use something like Bolt Action for the ground combat and maybe something like Check Your 6 for the air battles. I'm just not that ambitious. However, with sci-fi, dropfleet commander and dropzone commander play together with unified rules for just that purpose.

[@marcusfranconium3392]

@@CounterProductiveGames will do , thank you for the information on how to get the general quarters 3. Now i have to read the manual and paint some ships.

[@FeWolf]

Comand at Sea series, Rising Sun