How to use Cine EI on the Sony FX3 / FX30

[@estevanzamora]

I finally pulled the trigger on this update and was immediately met with a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. "I broke it," I thought. But I watched several videos before coming to yours and felt even MORE CONFUSED than before I went in. Thankfully, I found your video. You showing me AND telling me at the same time, while I'm able to follow along setting-byt-setting, was a God-send. Thank you. While I understand the value of Cine EI, I'll be keeping it off and making the camera "normal" again until I can practice it in real world scenarios. My A7S III did NOT like the thought of not looking the same as his cool cousin. 😅

[@PaulJoy]

Thanks so much for letting me know it helped.

[@propellavideo]

Fantastic. The best conversation of Cine EI online. Paul's channel is one of the best and deserves far more attention, his explanations are always fantastic. Big thumbs up from me.

[@PaulJoy]

Thanks for the nice comment.

[@grahamfjlaws6108]

Also, you will be getting a whole new audience with the release of the FX30 which also has Cine-EI with 800 ISO L and 2500 ISO H. Great videos with clear explanations - many thanks.

[@PaulJoy]

Thanks Graham. With winter arriving I’m starting to have more time for KZbin again and plan on posting more about using CineEI in the future.

[@nyambe]

Yes, I am here for that.

[@unihumi]

this is by far the best video about Cine EI for my FX3.

[@PaulJoy]

Thanks for letting me know, much appreciated.

[@anthonypc1]

Just learned the most from this one video. Thank you for actually clarifying the concepts!

[@PaulJoy]

Glad it helped Anthony.

[@cinematicknifeart9744]

Had the FX3 for days have not even played with it yet. This vid helped a LOT THANKS

[@PaulJoy]

Glad it helped, thanks for letting me know.

[@mitchellfilms]

At last.. a deep dive in EI ! Could find it till now. Thanx 👌🏻 Cheers Mitchell

[@skymakai]

Thanks for the video, Paul! I, for one, didn't know what the center number meant. One thing you missed is that you can also set LUTs to have an 'offset' in case you want to overexpose a LUT. Cine EI is confusing, especially with that highlight/shadown chart. People think it's going to give you more or less dynamic range in the shadows or highlights by using Cine EI. You are, but it's not how you might think. You're just over or underexposing the scene, BUT you're offsetting your LUT to see the offset that you'll have to do in post to bring the clip into a normal range. I think it's best explained as 'over/under exposure LUT preview'.

[@PaulJoy]

Good info about the lut Sky, I really wanted to make it clear that Cine EI really doesn’t do anything to the image. I can see it catching a lot of people out who are used to dialling up the ISO.

[@GeraldBertramPhotography]

Great video, Paul! I was waiting for this after all the talk over on the FB FX3 forum

[@PaulJoy]

Hi Gerald, many thanks. Hope you're good, you've gone a little quiet lately!

[@emergenceuniversity]

Wow, Paul. What an excellent explanation! One of the best I've ever watched. Thank you, so much.

[@PaulJoy]

Thanks for saying so, really pleased it helps.

[@LennyandSandi]

Thank you, very informative and I learned a ton! Now, I just need to watch a couple more times and see if I can wrap my head around the zebra/exposures limitation in the multiple modes you were using. Came across your channel a couple of days ago, and it's been a training platform for me and the use of my Sony FX3!

[@PaulJoy]

Really pleased it was helpful, this one is a little bit all over the place as I was just filming my thoughts but glad to know it made some sense :)

[@ChrisRigbyFilm]

@@PaulJoyI come from an FS7 background and used cine ei a lot. I loved how you could over expose, darken the screen, and still use the wave form to see where your highlights actually where to see if you were clipping. It seems like this is impossible to do on the FX3 without an external monitor. And even if you do use an external monitor to monitor the actual footage, it needs to be a monitor able to accept the raw output. Have I understood that correctly?

[@PaulJoy]

@@ChrisRigbyFilm Yes, unfortunately this is a limitation with the FX3. You can toggle the LUT on and off to see the effect on the external monitor or the histogram on the camera but you can't have the histogram show the pre-lut data whilst displaying the LUT. You could turn the LUT off and apply it on an external monitor that is capable if displaying Pre-Lut data with it's own monitoring LUT but that makes Cine EI pointless!

[@ChrisRigbyFilm]

@@PaulJoy ugh!! What are they playing at!! The whole point of Cine EI is that is a display aid, not an exposure aid. So why on earth do the exposure aids change when you adjust the display aid. Do you know, on the Ninja, if you monitor raw output, can you ad a lut to the ninja but have the waveform display pre lut levels?

[@PaulJoy]

@@ChrisRigbyFilm Yeah, I guess they have to give you a reason to buy the FX6 or 9 though! The Ninja V works in the same way as the FX3 and the LUT effects the tools. The Atomos Shinobi though does it in what I think is the right way and displays the exposure data from the signal unaffected by the LUT. I'm not sure why Atomos have different approaches on each device, it's a shame they don't handle it like PortKeys who allow you to choose either Pre or Post Lut data.

[@simonjacobsphotography]

Yep. The video we were all waiting for….. Thank you!

[@PaulJoy]

Thanks Simon.

[@phalanxfilmco]

The lower limit for zebras dropping from 99+ to 95+ is consistent with Sony's recommendation for recording in Flexible ISO modes (i.e., on Firmware 1) where they recommend a limit of 94+, since they also say to record in SLog3 at 1.7 to 2.0 stops over on the multimeter. (I assume that the jump from 94+ to 95+ is due to the lower base ISO increase from 640 to 800??) By shooting at base ISO with your MM set to 0.0, but with your EI value set to 1.7 stops under, you get the same recorded result at base ISO as recording in Flex ISO at 1.7 stops overexposed would have given on Firmware 1. Great video -- very technical and causing me to really have to think about things. You've earned a new subscriber! Presumably this means that if you choose to shoot in Cine EI but never change your EI value, you can leave your zebra settings at 95+ and expose at +1.7 on the meter, just like you used to on Firmware 1. I can see myself using EI values on commercial shoots but probably not for run and gun situations like weddings, in which case I'll just use the method I just described. Thoughts?

[@PaulJoy]

The base ISO and for that matter the CINE EI values dont effect the maximum brightness values of sLog3 and in fact if you turn off the LUT the max brightness reverts to 94+. I think it's just the LUT effecting where the maximum brightness value lands.

[@phalanxfilmco]

@@PaulJoy Interesting, makes sense. This is definitely an area I need to learn more about and frankly it's somewhat over my head at this point, haha. In the past I've had good results just using the gamma display assist option to get a rec709-ish looking image on the monitor without the shifts that occur with monitoring LUTs.

[@richiemelbymedia]

Appreciate this! Saved and will be referring to it often whenever I get the update completed on my FC3. Great work, thanks!

[@Cjmfilm]

Hi Paul - it actually is possible to send out 4K to a Ninja V (or a V+ in my case), if you use the monitor as a recorder as well; under HDMI Output settings just set ‘Rec Media dur HMDI Output’ to ‘Off(HDMI Only)’. Voila! Then you can use the monitor exactly like before version 2.0 - and you can of course still use the Cine EI monitoring capabilities on the FX3 display. I personally use a LUT on the Ninja V+ that fits the higher exposure that often gives the best results in Slog3. In that way my Ninja V+ actually shows the same image as FX3s display.

[@PaulJoy]

Hi Christian. I do actually cover that in the video at 4:49. The only problem with that approach is that in order for Cine EI to be useful you have to have the LUT enabled but then the lut gets backed in to the image sent to the Ninja. I think for recording 4K the better option is just to turn off Log Shooting and set a Picture Profile to use sLog-3 instead as then you can record internally as well for a backup.

[@Videosbyme278]

@Cjmfilm would you mind sharing that Lut? I will be using a Ninja V with the fx3 and would love for the images to look identical!

[@Videosbyme278]

Hey Paul Great Video! So I have a couple questions that I hope you'll have the time to answer. First, I am seeing conflicting info online, many are saying that when using flexible iso, the base ISO of the FX3 is still 640. Do you know if this is true or is it 800 like in Cine EI? Second, when using the Ninja V to record prores raw, is it better to use flexible iso? I saw that you said the Lut gets baked into the ninja recorder when using Cine EI, is that true? Thanks so much!

[@PaulJoy]

It’s hard to say but as I understand it the base ISO is 640 unless using Cine EI. The thing is you’ll hardly notice any difference between 640 and 800 so I don’t worry about it too much. When shooting ProRes Raw on the Ninja V there is no lut applied to the output. There’s no advantage to shooting flexible ISO over Cine EI.

[@imselende]

Thanks a lot Paul. I really appreciate this video and your effort into making it.

[@outdoorhabits]

After the firmware update, when I hit record on my fx3. It no longer record simultaneously at the same time on my camera and ninja. Am I missing something here?

[@PaulJoy]

Likely just because it reset all of the settings. Try turning on timecode output and Rec Control in the HDMI output settings.

[@thesamuelnam]

I still don’t get the benefits of Cine EI… I have fx6 and need to figure this out. I confused about the EI offset. WTF. Just show me what the Slog is recording so I don’t accidentally over or under expose. Someone please tell me.

[@PaulJoy]

It just allows you to record your data either higher or lower in the dynamic range and still see the image as you expect it on the monitor. If you tend not to shift the image this way then Cine EI is a little pointless other than being able to quickly swap between the base ISO’s.

[@t0mwhazzup]

CineEI is a great thing and your video explains it very well! Perfectly done! I have always overexposed my footage just short of clipping and brought it back in post in order to get the cleanest possible footage. It really makes a difference. Now that there is CineEI, I can still get a good impression on the monitor while recording about how the final image is gonna look like. I use EI200 all the time, so overexposing the image by two stops. But there's one thing I don't get: Now I have this overexposed video, when I bring it into my software (DaVinci Resolve) und put a Color Space Transform from Slog3 to Rec.709 on it, I still have the overexposure going on. How do I put it back to normal exposure correctly? Surely I can try to adjust manually by using Gain Gamma Lift or the Curves Tool, but that's just an approximation. How can I convert the footage to how it looks in-camera with display LUT and exposure shift considered? I have not found anything about that so far... Thanks for your help!

[@PaulJoy]

Really pleased the video helps. Regarding the reversal of the over exposure I do cover that in the following video but it's for Final Cut Pro. I think it might also work for Resolve but I don't use that so not sure. Let me know how you get on... kzbin.info/www/bejne/pn6tgJ2vmK9mlc0

[@t0mwhazzup]

@@PaulJoy Oh wow, that was a quick answer! I will check the video out, thanks for that 🙂

[@AllThingsFilm1]

Thank you for this walkthrough. It's the best explanation I've seen on Cine EI to date. One question. Where you show 800EI and 250EI side by side, and you turn off the LUT, the 250EI looks brighter. Does that mean the image will be cleaner with the brighter look? Or will the image be just as clean regardless of the EI displayed? Thank you.

[@PaulJoy]

The 250 EI looks brighter because it forced me to increase exposure levels and you can only see that with the lut Switched off. Yes in some situations exposing the image higher in the range and then dropping it in post will result in less noise, but that’s not true for all situations.

[@BarefootMediaTV]

nice shots! im loving this camera too but prefer my a7iv bc of all the noise. i use caleb pikes +2 stop lut and thats been super helpful.

[@PaulJoy]

Interesting you find the a7iv less noisy, I’ve not noticed that.

[@kartiktaakfilms]

thankyou brother for making this video ❤❤❤

[@PaulJoy]

It's my pleasure

[@grahamfjlaws6108]

This is all under fairly strict internal lighting control. I guess a video on how to use Cine EI in an outdoor "run and gun" situation would be very helpful.

[@PaulJoy]

I think a 'run and gun with Cine EI' video would be good too, thanks for the feedback.

[@ryansulak]

@@PaulJoy do you still plan on making this? it would be a huge help! should run n' gun shooters for travel work use Cine EI or should they use a different format

[@IgorRiccelli]

Hi Paul! Thank you for the very explanatory video. After watching this and made some tests and research by myself, I have to agree with other users comments that Cine EI has more disadvantages than pros, especially if you have been exposing correctly since previous firmware with FX3 and even more if you have a Ninja V in your workflow (as a backup or main recording) to monitor with the PQ function. Yes, if you are in a studio situation or you need to match with FX6 or FX9 it can be useful, but other than that no. Btw I wanted to tell you that, based on my tests, I discover another flaw that I haven't heard till now: if you shoot 4K 25fps in camera and send out an 1080p signal to the Ninja V for recording, the Ninja V receives a 1080 50fps signal. And there is no way to change this. So plus all other cons, you have now a different frame rate issue. I don't know why, maybe easy explanation, but I didn't find it until now. Hope this helps somebody else. Btw I think I am going to disable Cine EI and reset PP1 to slog3 and work like before this big non-revolution.

[@PaulJoy]

Yes the loss of external recording at 4k is frustrating for ninja users. cine EI is just a different way of achieving the same result so I guess it comes down to how you shoot and your preferred workflow. I really enjoy with way Cine EI allows you to switch between base ISO’s quickly but other than that it doesn’t really offer advantages over traditional log shooting if your used to working that way.

[@cammackey]

Can you have the in camera waveforms set to only read off the log image instead of the LUT? And is there a way to have the waveforms only read off the base ISO values? So say if I have a perfect exposure, but it’s super bright on the monitor. So I lower the ISO just to have a darker preview. I would still want the waveforms to read off the base 800 and not the lower ISO. Specially so I don’t end up peaking the highlights. Is that possible?

[@PaulJoy]

Unfortunately the FX3 and FX30 only have a histogram and no waveform. The histogram always displays the values on the screen and as such any lit applied will also effect the histogram. It would be great to be able to set the exposure tools to be pre or post LUT but that’s not an option. The best approach is to set a button for lut on/off and toggle between them if you like to expose using the values of log image.

[@cammackey]

@@PaulJoy do you know if that applys to the FX6 too?

[@PaulJoy]

@@cammackey The FX6 has waveforms but I’m not sure if it can switch pre/post lut as I don’t have one sorry.

[@AleksanderZh]

Well explained👍🏻 Thank you for this video.

[@PaulJoy]

Glad it was helpful, thanks for letting me know.

[@fotografkennethlund]

Hi - great video but I would like to make sure I get one thing right: are you saying that with CineEI, I *cannot* use my Ninja V+ as a 4K ProRes SLOG3 recording device (like I do now, using my A7 IV)? If I get you point in the HDMI-limitations chapter right, it seems to me that you're saying, that you can use an external *monitor* (ie. only for monitoring) but that the recording needs to be done in camera (SD/CFexpress).

[@PaulJoy]

Hi there. You can still record but the HDMI output Will be limited to 1080p when recording in the camera at the same time. Also, the LUT is aplied to the HDMI out so your not recording the pure Log signal. The best solution is to record in ProRes Raw as that gets around the problem and offers the best quality external recording.

[@fotografkennethlund]

@@PaulJoy Ah, thanks ! I believe my A7 IV cannot send out RAW via HDMI, though, but I might be wrong.

[@PaulJoy]

@@fotografkennethlund Ah, sorry I missed that you were talking about the A7IV. As far as I know the a7IV doesn't have Cine EI either so you won't run in to the problem with that camera at all.

[@steveloudon7491]

This is an excellent tutorial. One question if I may. You are relying on the external monitor and waveform a great deal. I don't have an external monitor nor a waveform in the camera. How reliable is the histogram in getting a good exposure?

[@PaulJoy]

The histogram on the camera works well although it’s very small. Combined with the built in multimeter and zebras it’s possible to work fine without an external monitor but having a waveform does a much better job.

[@steveloudon7491]

@@PaulJoy I have 2 college degrees and got an A in calculus but still don't grasp this concept. For example, everyone says that changing the EI does nothing internally in the camera, it just shows what the image would look like. If that's the case then why is there a graph showing the shifting dynamic range at various levels of EI. If the dynamic range is changing then something must be changing in the camera. What am I missing? Thanks.

[@squirtle4519]

Hello! I have a question. For the CINE EI. It's all about shooting Native ISO 800 and 12800. What's the difference if I set my SONY A7SIII ISO to ISO800 and 12800? Isn't it the same? What is the benefit and special for CINE EI? Thank you for the video!

[@PaulJoy]

Hi there. The end result will be the same however with Cine EI you can change the way the image is displayed in camera in order to expose either higher or lower in the dynamic range. You can also do that without CINE EI, it just makes it easier.

[@squirtle4519]

@@PaulJoy Thank you for the reply!! I wish I can have FX3 instead of A7Siii~

[@giacomom2370]

Hey Paul, so basically, from what I’m understanding also shifting the EI shifts the DR stops either to the highlights or shadows. Meaning, we should, in the case of wanting better highlight retention or rolloff have a 8.0E (3200 ISO) and have 2 stops more in the highlights. For better monitoring this we should have in the camera LUTs custom made LUTs that underexpose the image (in this example) by 2 stops so we can have a natural looking monitoring image. Am I correct? Thanks

[@PaulJoy]

Yes exactly. that’s the great thing about Cine EI as it handles the LUT automatically still showing you a correctly exposed image on the monitor.

[@giacomom2370]

@@PaulJoy Very handy in controlled situations and when you get around the workflow. We should be getting better looking images depending on the needs. The fact about shifting the DR stops either to highlights or shadows is brilliant. Thank you.

[@fsinkorea]

Thank you for this very informative video!

[@PaulJoy]

Glad it was helpful!

[@tmoon1351]

Thanks for a brilliant film you’ve really explained how are you use it very well. I’m watching it now for the third time round, A quick question when would you need to jump from the high base to the low base when you’re going from indoors to outdoors?

[@PaulJoy]

Thanks. So basically it's better to use the low base when you can but when you can't get enough light in to the camera to get a good exposure you jump to the high base. I did a shoot recently where I did all the interiors on high base and exteriors on low base so yes you could use it that way. You just have to make sure when using high base to keep the EI low, I used EI 4000 giving 1.7 stops of increased exposure to help reduce the noise in the shadows.

[@mitchellfilms]

Hi Paul this EI explanation video was missing on YT! Your the best! I have a question: at 14:43 minutes… what did you mean with: bring it up to… Via ND? Thank you and succes with your YT channel. Mitchell

[@jesse_berger]

Great video CINE EI explanation. What are the zebra exposure levels for CINE EI at 18% Grey, ideal for Skin tones, and what % is over-exposure?

[@PaulJoy]

Hi Jesse, if you mean with the lut applied then I set my middle grey around 45%. The setting for highlights depends on the EI value you're using so the best thing to do there is over expose a subject and then set max zebras and bring it down until the zebras appear.

[@jesse_berger]

@@PaulJoy Generally what zebra % setting do you like for skin tones?

[@barryfontaine8536]

I would normally set zebras at 68 for skin tones (caucasian) in a non-log recording. Can i assume in SLOG3 with rec709 LUT applied I can still use my skin tone zebras as always? Still set to 68?

[@orcapodmedia]

I will have to watch this video a few times. All this science.

[@gee4zfpv]

So i'm using the FX3 with a Small HD Cine 5 monitor. The monitor has the EL Zone system for exposure assist. Does this make using EI as an exposure tool redundant?

[@PaulJoy]

They are different tools. EL Zone is similar to false colour in that it allows you to identify exposure values in the image. Cine EI uses a dynamic lut to change the way the image is displayed on the monitor meaning you can change exposure levels whilst still seeing a corrected image on the monitor. Cine EI requires you to use a LUT and EL Zone requires you to not use a lut so they will not work well together. You could in theory switch between them though to utilise both tools but not at the same time!

[@christofferren9057]

I am curious on how to use catalyst browse to how to adjust ISO to get the right exposure in running gun situations. I do not want to manually change the exposure but instead access the metadata. I’m guessing this is possible. Can you make a video on that. Explaining the workflow? I’m guessing we will see a better picture quality doing it this way instead of using flexible ISO in camera. 🤔

[@PaulJoy]

Good question, I've only tried Catalyst a couple of times and found it clunky with limited export options. If they ever integrate it in to FCPX then I would be a lot more interested in it but I will bare your request in mind should I get to grips with it.

[@brady_ackroyd]

Thank you Paul, you mentioned that you can't always trust the M.M. because the camera is taking an average of the entire screen. Can't you simply change the metering to the desired location or reduce the metering area to center or spot to get a more accurate M.M. readout? I'm pretty new to this camera so I apprieciate the feedback.

[@PaulJoy]

Yea you can use more specific metering point but the trick is then what do you point it at. Using an average tends to give a more useful representation of the entire area.

[@streetlife20]

What if after all this you decide you actually want to use a different lut while you’re editing. Technically you’ve under or overexposed according to the first lut so what do you do then?

[@PaulJoy]

I use a separate transform lut that allows me to adjust the footage to be correctly balanced and then apply a colour correction lut separately.

[@BlaineWestropp1]

Great video, but changing the ei doesn’t change the DR above or below middle grey, and doesn’t change where white clips. It doesn’t change anything whatsoever. It is similar to adjusting the brightness of the monitor.

[@PaulJoy]

That’s certainly true If you change EI and don’t adjust the exposure accordingly. The point is that it’s the required exposure change that achieves those things.

[@javierbotella4489]

Hey Paul! Can you explain how you work with the metadata files in FCPX using Cine EI on the FX3? Thanks!

[@PaulJoy]

Hi Javier. I don't actually use the metafiles for Cine EI in FCPX, I'm not even sure FCPX supports that unless I've missed it in an update. I will put together a video showing how I handle it though.

[@javierbotella4489]

@@PaulJoy it would be awesome to see your workflow on FCPX!!

[@PaulJoy]

Hi there, I'm about to release a video showing this but I'd really like to have somebody try it out pre release so that I can get some feedback. If you fancy having a watch then drop me an email, theres a link on my channel about page... www.youtube.com/@PaulJoy/about

[@jackfisher7274]

Thanks! How are you getting both monitors to work together? My camera monitor shuts off as soon as I turn the external monitor on...

[@PaulJoy]

Do you have info display turned on? You need to turn that off, this is a limitation set by Sony for some reason.

[@jackfisher7274]

@@PaulJoy that was it... Thanks 😀😀

[@IIG3]

Thanks for the video! Very informative! Two questions re: the hdmi output 1) If I were to turn off the internal recording in the FX3 so I can preserve the 4k output to my ninja v, can I turn on the LUT to get my exposure correct using Cine EI then turn it off when i'm ready to record? Given I have controlled lighting and the ambient lighting is not changing (e.g. filming a sit-down interview), will the exposure I have set in my camera stay the same after I turn the LUT off? 2)If I load the s709 LUT to my ninja v, will I be able to turn off the LUT on the FX3 and still utilize Cine EI using the ninja all with a 4k output?

[@PaulJoy]

Yes you can switch off the lut and the exposure will stay consistent so that should work. And yes you can use the same s709 lut on the Ninja, I do exactly that although I just record using ProRes RAW as that also allows a backup recording to the internal cards.

[@focuspulling]

It was misleading to retitle this older guide to be applicable to the FX30, without clarifying that it fundamentally doesn't apply as to base ISO values which are quite different on the FX30. Vital to update at least the written description beneath (e.g., all references to x are y on the FX30).

[@PaulJoy]

That’s a very good point, thanks for letting me know, I'll update the description accordingly.

[@CrispinVideo]

Great Video but I am still confusing how to expose correctly with the ND Filter, EI ISO or Aperture. Which one should be the priority? I used to use 94+ zebra with base iso. The only thing I could expose the scene is using nd filter if I want to keep the right aperture.

[@PaulJoy]

With EI I would do it like this. If unsure just stick with the base EI values, 800 and 12800. 1. set shutter speed depending on shooting framerate 2 set iris depending on the depth of field required 3. Choose between low or high base, low first choice but if you can’t get good exposure because not enough light then go for high. 4. If too much exposure then add ND as required or consider changing iris choice.

[@christofferroeen7222]

hey Paul, i could really use some HELP on how to (again) upload my Phantom luts (33x or 65x) on to my FX30 - I cant do it after i have updated to version 2.0 - I think many suffer the same problem but there are no videos on this !

[@PaulJoy]

Hi there, it should still work, try this... helpguide.sony.net/ilc/2220/v1/en/contents/TP1000888940.html

[@Dyhbkonfuknkknfr]

Hey! When using cineEI, I still over expose for slog3 ??

[@PaulJoy]

It depends on what you mean by over expose. You set the EI and then expose correctly however depending on where you set the EI the recorded file can be exposed higher or lower in the dynamic range.

[@garlicjoe]

Appreciate this! i like the cine EI feature, because my A-Cam is a FX9 and i am used to this workflow. but how can i record with a burned in lut and how to get the cinetone proflie as a lut in Cine EI?

[@PaulJoy]

I think the only way to burn in a lut is by applying it as a picture profile when not using Cine EI. Not sure re Cinetone, that’s not log based so I guess it would need to be recreated as a lut.

[@mitchellfilms]

Hi Paul i have a question: at 14:43 minutes you say… i’m bringing it up.. just over 75%? How do you bring it up? With ND filter i guess? Thank you!

[@PaulJoy]

Hi, no I was adjusting the Iris / aperture.

[@Philmac4705]

Are the base ISOs in FLEXIBLE ISO mode still 640/12800? I can’t find good information on this

[@PaulJoy]

I believe so yes although I've not seen this in anything official from Sony. My understanding is that 800 base is only with Cine EI.

[@sr841]

Please help me to setup exposure graph on the monitor, which you are referring in the video. I have a different monitor, I hope this option is not monitor specific.

[@PaulJoy]

Assuming you mean the waveform, that’s a fairly common tool on 3rd party monitors and generally doesn’t require any setup. It shows where the various elements in the frame fall on a scale of brightness from left to right of the frame. Which monitor are you using?

[@sr841]

@@PaulJoy I'm using FEELWORLD - 7inch monitor, also if possible please advise me on shooting in low light, whenever I increase the ISO, I see a lot of grains/Noise in the footage, whereas when I reduce the ISO - video image becomes darker, So am I suppose to change only the Aperature and exposure meter, but then I may not get the proper clarity and lighting in the footage. The main challenge here, if it is overexposed then I can use zebra to understand where it is overexposed, but it is challenging to capture the noise in the footage, especially when the monitor is so small. I mean the camera monitor, the other big monitor is not always an option to carry around. So most of the time I have to depend on the tiny monitor that comes with the camera, but it won;t show the noise properly visible through that tiny screen, so that's a challenge, please advise me, how would you capture such noise in the footage, especially while shooting the footage and how would you adjust it to avoid such noises in the footage. Please advise and thanks a lot in advance

[@skyflightbe]

Where can i find display lut on or off? ithanks Gregory

[@PaulJoy]

I show that in the video I think?

[@alekseimutovkin]

I just don't get it... Why use Cine EI if what you see on monitor is not what is recorded? What's the point? To have another step where you can screw up a shoot? There are LUTs available, so you can "see" the approximate end result after grading. I watched many videos on Cine EI and I still have no idea what is the use of it? if base ISO is 800 then what's the problem of going down? It won't add noise right? Right? So why bother to remove the option of changing ISO? If I want consistent bokeh then changing F-stop is not an option... Shutter speed is also not to be touched usually. So why going to Cine EI?... I am switching from Bmpcc4k and find all that Cine EI stuff a bit confusing... To me it is simply a strange way to break the exposure triangle. Please, correct me if I am wrong. I really need to understand this stuff...

[@PaulJoy]

Hi there. Cine EI is very basic really, as you suggest it does just change the preview exposure on the monitor allowing you to shoot higher or lower in the available dynamic range but still see a normal exposure on the screen. The reason it’s fixed to the base ISO (zero gain) is because that’s where you get the most dynamic range. When you choose base 800 and set EI to 800 it gives you 6 stops of dynamic range above middle grey. If you were to reduce ISO that wouldn’t be true so I’m order to have EI work accurately it is based on using zero gain on the sensor.

[@mitchellfilms]

😂 my question was hidden… behind the compliments… I have a question: at 14:43 minutes… what do you mean with: bring it up to… Only bring it up with exposure? Guess ND filter is also an option…ist it? Cheers Mitchell

[@PaulJoy]

Ha, I did reply to one of your questions but third time lucky! I'm bringing the exposure up with the Iris / Aperture on the lens.

[@mitchellfilms]

@@PaulJoy Great! Besides Aperture is ND filter is also an option, is it?

[@PaulJoy]

@@mitchellfilms Sure, it's just about adjusting your exposure.

[@tmoon1351]

Sorry one other thing how would you explain the difference between s709 and 709( 800%) . When when is using Cine EI quick .

[@PaulJoy]

They are just different luts. According to Sony... 709(800) is more high contrast with broadcast colours and s709 is low contrast with cinematic colour that provides subtle and well-rendered facial tints, with a tone curve close to film charactristics, and low contrast

[@BestAudiovisualTricks]

Could you please make a video explaining (and showing) the difference between Cine EI and S-Log 3? Thanks matey! (By the way: Nobody has done that so far on KZbin).

[@PaulJoy]

There is no difference in the end result at all. Cine EI is just a way of shooting with a little over exposure (or under) at the same time as seeing a correctly exposed image on screen. You can also do this without Cine EI if you prefer.

[@BestAudiovisualTricks]

@@PaulJoy Cool! A lot of people like myself are confused about Cine EI and think it is another profile similar to S-Cinetone. Thank you for your answer, your answer alone could be a great idea to make a KZbin Short. I bet I’ll help thousands of people. Cheers to your success matey!

[@fredventure]

Why was the base ISO's only set to those two? Couldn't we have one at 2500 for instance as well haha

[@PaulJoy]

I'm guessing it would be possible to make such a sensor / processor maybe in the future we see 10 x gain stage cameras.

[@GarminPWF]

Hi Paul, im tested myself but what i see is not what i got, the file still didnt change anything after changing EI value. So user may get under/over exposure if didnt notice

[@PaulJoy]

The thing to remember is that changing your EI does not change your exposure, it just gives you a preview of what your image would look like at the selected ISO. Your actual ISO will always be 800 or 12800.

[@Chaelaz]

Well done. Thank you.

[@PaulJoy]

Thank you too!

[@MyPortugueseCulture]

Made me want to switch to regular log

[@SheaEvans]

Work around question... If you set PP1 to Slog, turn off "LOG" in the menu, and just use the PP1 to shoot with, aren't you now still shooting in Slog? In which case you could record 4k Slog internally AND output a 4k Slog via HDMI... and then instead of using a Lut internally in the FX3, you would just use the LUT on your monitor... to me it was useful in the previous firmware to be able to record a 4k flat Slog file internally, and then record a LUT baked in to 4k footage externally, simultaneously. That way I could hand off a close to finished file with the Ninja file, and still have a backup Slog file in case the "baked in" process didn't work for them...? Make sense?

[@PaulJoy]

Yes, the HDMI limitation is only when using Log Shooting Mode, if you turn that off and use a picture profile then it seems to work the same way as the previous firmware.

[@PUREMediaChannel1]

Hi Paul, I like you content!!! Clear and detail! One question: I use Ninja 5 with luts and check the waveform for exposure. gamma assist and check zebra on fx3. Keep my ISO to 800 or 12800 (flexible iso mode)and adjust the exposure ONLY with Aperture, shutter and light. Is it already the same concept of using Cine EI? Appreciate your help😊🙏 Thank you

[@PaulJoy]

Hi there. The end results should be exactly the same, it really just depends which way of working you prefer. Cine EI just makes it a bit easier to expose to +-0 if you like to expose a little higher then standard levels. Either way it just comes down yo how you like to judge exposure.

[@PUREMediaChannel1]

@@PaulJoy thanks man! Appreciate your help! Your explanation so far the best to me on KZbin. ❤️

[@discoverlost]

How can I watch internal playback with LUT on? This was possible prior with picture profile and gamma assist.

[@PaulJoy]

You need to turn off Gamma Assist for it to work.

[@clizzaudio]

how are you able to view the external monitor and lcd screen at the same time? My lcd turns off once i plug the hdmi into an external source.

[@PaulJoy]

You likely have HDMI Info Display turned on, you need to turn that off then it will work.

[@clizzaudio]

@@PaulJoy got it! cheers

[@PUREMediaChannel1]

Thanks Paul!!

[@PaulJoy]

You're very welcome.

[@tor2919]

I still don’t really understand the purpose of this. What is the difference from just under or overexposing 800 and 12800? Been watching a few explanation videos but no one explains what, precisely, this is for. What is the purpose? Since Cine EI has absolutely no effect on exposure.

[@PaulJoy]

The difference is that you can expose higher or lower in the dynamic range whilst still seeing correct exposure on the monitor. Yes you can do the same without Cine EI but it’s less accurate and the image will look over or under exposed on the monitor.

[@streetlife20]

I understand exactly what you mean lol. It’s so much easier to just shoot regular and under or overexpose. Matter of fact if I’m trying to overexpose I actually WANT to see the image as overexposed. Maybe I’m just backwards lol. I kinda get it though, you got the option to view how it’ll look with your favorite luts I guess

[@edwinkhudadian5022]

So, let me know if this is correct. If you are trying to preserve shadow detail in a scene, you should lower your EI levels and re-expose via iris or ND to see what your final image would look like in post?

[@PaulJoy]

Yes, the displayed image with the LUT applied shows what the final image will look like once the clip has been graded to bring it back down to correct exposure.

[@edwinkhudadian5022]

@@PaulJoy Awesome, thank you for the video and quick response. Would this work with another LUT, other than the one provided? Appreciate the help!

[@PaulJoy]

@@edwinkhudadian5022 Yes it should work with other luts as long as they don’t include any exposure compensation. For example you wouldn’t be able to use something like the Leeming Lut because that already darkens the image to prompt increasing exposure.

[@edwinkhudadian5022]

@@PaulJoy Thanks!!

[@JeffBourke]

The benefit from CineEI (for me) is it forces me to always use a base iso. Using the display LUT in my opinion is dangerous.

[@PaulJoy]

The main benefit of Cine EI is the LUT and the way it responds, I agree though, it's also nice being locked in to the base ISO's.

[@JeffBourke]

@@PaulJoy my issue with the display LUT is that if you use zebras at clipping, it can show clipping in your 709 LUT but you’re still good in slog3. So you don’t really know what is happening with your exposure.

[@PaulJoy]

@@JeffBourke Yes the clipping point for zebras changes depending on the index you use which can be confusing however you can still set them to show at the same point where the log file clips.

[@angelopoulis5825]

i assume it is the same thing if we just use the older method of shooting slog3, meaning log shooting off, and then set up a custom PP , Like picture profile 10, to slog3 and slog3cine..and just shoot log and avoid the limitations? same result , quality and dynamic range vs the new method log shooting on, correct?

[@PaulJoy]

I assume so yes, although I haven't tested that and don't have the tools to test the dynamic range.

[@angelopoulis5825]

@@PaulJoy i did a test for both, same settings and they looked exactly the same. also in premiere colour scopes look exactly the same for wide range. so i mean the old method sounds better then

[@PaulJoy]

@@angelopoulis5825 I guess it comes down to how you like working but it's good to know you got exactly the same results. Thanks for letting me know.

[@mreddieau]

I just can't see myself using this to be honest, still prefer doing it myself with flexible ISO and having clean Slog3 out in 4k to my recorder.

[@PaulJoy]

It's great that we can still just switch off Log Shooting and use Picture Profiles instead if you prefer working that way.

[@loadedmultimedia]

Thanks for the video Paul. Agreed Steve, I much prefer dual internal + external recording for redundancy, and for the ProRes files (pity Sony didn't add ProRes recording options). Also, is trigger working for you? My FX3 doesn't seem to trigger my Ninja V+ after the update. Is there a workaround?

[@HAlariousInc]

@@loadedmultimedianot sure if he would have the answer considering he originally said that there was an hdmi limitation that doesn’t allow you to record 4k externally if you’re shooting in log. (Which is wrong and doesn’t make sense considering Netflix’s approved camera requirements)

[@ourtvchannel]

Best explanation so far but still as clear as mud. I think Log generally is a ridiculous solution from the camera industry. Why do we care how a digital output is recorded to provide us with the best output for dynamic range. Just give us the normal view and record the best dynamic range into the file. We didn't need to know how Dolby noise reduction worked to record on Audio tape why all this nonsense about recording over exposed and correcting.

[@PaulJoy]

That’s a valid point. It really comes down to recorded video standards not being able to store all the image information available from the sensor. You do have a choice to record a more finished looking image and give up the extra dynamic range log offers just by using a non log profile. You also don’t have to shoot over, it just helps lift the shadows in to a less noisy part of the gamma curve if you have available headroom higher in the range.

[@MattTorres]

An issue is that rec709 has a wildly small dynamic range. You can record 15995949 stops of light but if youre showing a realistic range of contrast in rec 709 just generally applied, everything is going to blow out anyway. You're getting a larger amount of data than can be displayed and it gives you latitude in post to decide how to grade an image using that information depending on what makes sense for the shot. And you don't need to have tons of storage for something like raw. You don't need to use log if you don't need that and the extra dynamic range and that's fine. But that's what log is for.

[@musicpanda1586]

полезное видео, спасибо!

[@PaulJoy]

You’re welcome, thanks for letting me know.

[@cinema-q]

Thank you for going through this. I hope the external recording options still work in Log mode when using Flexible ISO. I’m still unsure what the benefit of using Cine EI is over Flexible ISO-is it only useful when one is using the ETTR method, since it lets you view how the image would look after bringing everything into its proper range in post?

[@PaulJoy]

Hi there. No I’m afraid the output is still limited to 1080 with flexible ISO. You need to switch off log recording and revert to using an slog picture profile in order to output a 4k log image for external recording. The benefit of Cine EI is just that it allows you to set exposure levels to a ‘normal’ setting whilst still recording an offset exposure. ETTR puts the data to the top of the dynamic range, Cine EI allows you to fine tune where in the dynamic range to put the data.

[@ValJedi]

i guess im an idiot, but im still not getting it.. okay shifting EI index dosent affect to actual image being recorded, then whats the use of this LUT adjustments? like you would still have to control your exposure through iris and shutter, and there you have aa spot to make a mistake and blow out the highlights... unless you're using a zebra. also in this scenario i guess ND is a must... (?)

[@PaulJoy]

It just saves you from having to view an overexposed image on the monitor of you want to shoot over. If you tend to shoot without moving the recorded image always from the ‘normal’ place in the dynamic range then shooting Cine EI will seem a little pointless.

[@ingriit7094]

Recently was reported an important bug if you use NINJA V as external record , because you'll loose ProRes4k by HDMI . It should definitely output 4K in flex iso log mode as that is the replacement for PP7. It's a Fw2 bug, need to report that to Sony.

[@PaulJoy]

Hopefully Sony addresses that. It shouldn’t only work in Flexible ISO though, there needs to be an option to switch off HDMI Lut output and enable 4K for all log modes. You can use ProRes RAW or just switch off log shooting as a short term solution though.

[@AM2PMReviews]

It’s funny how they have EI but no shutter angle setting

[@PaulJoy]

Shutter angle would seem like an easier addition to make the FX3 match the bigger cameras than Cine EI must have been. I do think Cine EI is more useful than shutter angle but yes, it does seem strange they didn’t add it.

[@robinprobyn1971]

With the original Cine EI in the f5/55 , you could only use one of the 3 preset WB, later FW let you do actual WB, the reason being better for grading , I guess with AWB , by the nature of it ,WB will be jumping around all over the place making grading a nightmare ..

[@PaulJoy]

Hi Robin. Yes grading AWB is a nightmare however some people do use AWB and then lock in the result so that it doesn't shift during recording. My guess is that AWB would mess up the embedded LUT workflow they have designed.

[@robinprobyn1971]

@@PaulJoy Yes ,originally you couldn't even do any sort of WB in Cine EI , only those one of the 3 presets , this was due to Sony deciding that was better for graders / colorists, after alot of complaints , and the fact that Arri cameras could , Sony changed it by FW update , that you could do a WB, but only relatively recently. But AWB has no place in Cine EI workflow , so I guess they just switched it off.

[@robinprobyn1971]

@@PaulJoy I think thats a pretty unorthodox work flow as far as Sony is concerned , or anyone for that matter :) and I suppose are trying to make it idiot proof by just not allowing it at all , certainly in the pro work flow/ Cine EI , no one is ever using AWB to elect their WB..

[@matthewwinne]

Did I miss the reason you wanted to overexpose by 1.7 stops?

[@PaulJoy]

I’m some situations exposing the image to use the higher end of the dynamic range will result in more shadow detail and less noise.

[@HGQjazz]

I think Sony intentionally makes things difficult, complicated, confusing. I still don't understand what problems this solves.

[@kidcoma1340]

It makes FX30 users feel like professional cinematographers, while they shoot their moms birthday with a „cinema line“ camera and brag about the „extended shadow detail“ to the guests.

[@PaulJoy]

I need to make another video about this and it is on my list! Cine EI is simple really, it just allows you to change the perceived exposure on screen whilst not effecting the recorded exposure. The reason for that is it allows you to use the full dynamic range available. Lets say you really need to keep the highlight detail in so you choose to under expose your main subject a little. With Cine EI you can adjust so that what you're seeing is closer to what the end result will be once adjusted back in post. It also forces you to use the base ISO values giving you the maximum dynamic range.

[@Xanderrealestatefilmmaker]

I'm still having a hard time understanding the purpose/why someone would want to change the "viewed" ISO value knowing the actual ISO value is always at either 800 or 12800. Why would you want to change how the exposure looks on camera knowing that the actual exposure won't look like that? Why not just keep the monitored ISO value at 800 or 12800 so that you know exactly what the camera is recording?

[@PaulJoy]

Hi Alexander. Cine EI is primarily designed to emulate working with film where you can use different rated film stocks. In ye olde days you would choose ISO rated film based upon requirements, so you might choose ISO 100 for daylight shooting or ISO 400 when you need higher sensitivity for lower light. When you loaded the film you would dial in the ISO rating off the film on the camera which would effect the way the exposure meter responded accordingly. Cine EI does the same thing, you can ‘rate’ your camera to be more or less sensitive and the meter and display reacts accordingly allowing you to still expose to a nominal level. As to why, well it mainly allows you to choose how to take advantage of the dynamic range. Let’s say most of you scene is shadows but your main subject is a face that’s lit. If you just use ISO 800 and expose the face to 50 % then all of the shadow data in the image is in the lower half of the dynamic range. This might result in loss off some shadow data and a noisy image. If you rate the camera with a lower ISO, say ISO 320 then you can still expose the face to 50% but all of the data will be higher in the dynamic range resulting in less noise and retaining more info. I hope that helps.

[@Xanderrealestatefilmmaker]

@@PaulJoy Thank you for the detailed reply, It's helping. In the case of your example with exposing the face in a predominant shadowed scene, if you rate the ISO to 320, isn't that just for the display on the camera? I thought with Cine EI any ISO other than 800/12800 automatically gets assigned to the base it's closer to for the final video file. So if you rate the camera to 320, the final video file will still be recorded at 800 ISO, am I confusing things or is this correct? So if that's the case wouldn't rating the ISO to 320 not make a difference for the final video file since it will be assigned to the 800 ISO base?

[@PaulJoy]

@@Xanderrealestatefilmmaker You’re right however If you rate the camera at 320 then you would naturally need to let more light in to the camera to get correct exposure. The end result would be the scene would all be exposed brighter.

[@NoiselessProductions]

@@PaulJoy Hi Paul, I hope you see this comment lol. Regarding this, rating the Camera at 320 at the M.M showing 0.0 is technically the same as using an ISO 800 with the M.M showing 1.3 right? The only difference at this point is that Cine EI is just showing you what the image looks like and the ability to eyeball it if you don't trust your M.M Whereas using Flexible ISO, it would just show a screen that is overexposed by 1.3? I do my work at a racetrack so I'm just trying to figure out for myself what is the most convenient way of getting most "shots" right lol.

[@GlassfilmWeddings]

Sad we can't use auto white balance like why!?! Also why would someone want to view their exposure at a different ei?

[@PaulJoy]

I'm not sure, I've read that it might be something to do with AWB effecting the dynamic range but nothing official. The main reason you choose a different EI is to allocate more dynamic range above or below specific mid grey point. So for example, if you're shooting a scene with a lot of darker areas and want more dynamic range in the shadows at the cost of less in the highlights then you can Dial down the EI and then adjust the exposure accordingly. In essence all your doing is increasing exposure, but this way you can still expose to zero instead of looking at an over exposed image.

[@GlassfilmWeddings]

@@PaulJoy still dont understand it. I just shot a 11 day music festival and updated half way through. Ive been using 800 and 12800 EI and setting the base switch like you. I just expose so it looks good on camera with the lut and then glance at the log image. I use the zebras at 96 +-2 on the log image. The zebras change once i put the LUT on and different LUTS show different zebras lol. IT was dark(USED 12800 alot. I used 50 1.2. Sometimes 800 looked good. I had a ND and would use it at both native iso. Worked well at 12800 when it was too bright and i stayed at 1.2 most of the time. Shooting SLOG i feel we dont need to be as careful with exposure as theres much more room to play in post compared to pp11 or ppoff. Just know brighter is usually better to keep detail in shadows

[@thehumancamcorder9326]

cine ei will help you maintain the same dynamic range while changing the ratio between shadows and highlights. that is all. and this is huge

[@tobiolatunji]

Right, because it records only at the base ISO

[@pavolpekar9888]

please enable subtitles :)

[@PaulJoy]

I need to get my head around how that works. I thought YT did it automatically but obviously not.

[@pavolpekar9888]

@@PaulJoy it would be great if it was possible ... thank you

[@ChadWork1]

I tried to understand, but I just don't get it. Extremely fiddly.

[@PaulJoy]

You just have to use what works for you, sometimes the simple approach is the best approach :)

[@Pfagnan]

OMG so complicated. I will just stick to S Cinetone

[@Dan_Yerlll]

There is literally no difference between doing this and “burning in” your digital ISO curve like on Alexa

[@JeffBourke]

(Poverty FX30 user)Using the display lit is annoying because you EI affects the histogram and your zebras also reflect the LUT so you have no idea when you are clipping the video proper.

[@PaulJoy]

You can tell when you're clipping by looking at the histogram because the highlights will start to form a solid line on the right if clipping. You can also program a button to toggle the lut on and off if you like to compare.

[@JeffBourke]

@@PaulJoy yeah but the histogram is reflecting your 709 LUT and not the actual captured image. It doesn’t work like this in the FX9 - histogram shows your captured image only.

[@PaulJoy]

@@JeffBourke Yes I prefer working that way too. An option to choose pre/post lut would be nice but likely not a priority for Sony with the FX3 I'm guessing.

[@familycarelearning]

so confused lol

[@PaulJoy]

Anything specific I can help to clarify?

[@familycarelearning]

@@PaulJoy I guess i am so used to regular mode. so there are only two base ISOs. but when you see the screen changing exposrure thats not really doing anything,. But it changes the look on my monitor as well so i never know if i am exposed properly. I just need to keep it on 800 or 12800 i guess but then it shows stops of liight so maybe the higher the number the better?

[@dhananjaysapkal2081]

Video starts at 8:14 thanks for wasting time

[@PaulJoy]

Full video structure with time code links is also in the description and timeline shows each part if anyone wants to jump to specific parts. Thanks for letting me know your thoughts.

[@fabianbetto]

This video helped me alot to understand Cine EI better. Wihch Luts you loaded in Slot User2-4? They are named AC-Normal.cube

[@PaulJoy]

Really pleased it helped. They are Alister Chapmans luts.

[@fabianbetto]

@@PaulJoy Are they made for ETTR exposing or more neutral expose? Never ckecked the Alister Chapman Luts. Looks like you like them as you installed them after the Leeming :-)

[@AMomentInTimeProductions]

you can actually see what the applied S709 LUT would look like on the Ninja V, by going into the Ninja V menu and tell it to preview the S709 LUT it will change just like on the Screen of the Sony FX3 Or FX30 which ever one your using.. It will work, and you can also upload custom LUTS onto your Ninja V as well.. Now The Ninja Doesn't Bake Or apply the LUT to the Written recording it's just a preview to your Ninja Monitor only.. I use the Sony FX30 With The NINJA V because first off CFexpress type A cards are way too high in price and the biggest card you can get is 160BG unlike the CFexpress type B, which is a better cfexpress, it's faster and way cheaper, so i record all My Video's to the Ninja V Using a 1.2 TB SSD drive which is only $99.00 for the SSD drive, this is much more cost effective.. The only thing to note is that you can only record RAW at max 4K-30P with the Ninja V, but if you get the Ninja V+ you can record ProRes RAW at 4K-60P. And With The Ninja V+ you can actually record 6K-30P RAW where you can't record 6K at all to The Ninja V the highest resolution you can record on the Ninja V is only 4k, but the Ninja V+ will allow up to 6K with a max frame rate of 30p..Using the Sony FX3 ,how ever the Ninja V+ will allow up to 8K 30P using the Canon R5 or any Camera that can record 8K Video. Just the Sony FX3 I believe the highest Resolution is 6K, the FX30 tho i think is only 4K but record in 6K but down samples it to 4K meaning it is recording 6K but down samples it to 4K written on the card or SSD your using.... Not i do not believe using the NINJA V that the Sony FX30 is sending a 6K image to the Ninja and the Ninja Down sampling it when writing the video like FX30 Does internally, i don not believe you get that quality using an external Recorder, with the Ninja V i think you have to record Internally to get that down sampled 6k to 4k.. Not 100% sure about that but i think that is how it works..

[@PaulJoy]

Hi, thanks for your thoughts. A few points here... When using Cine EI the HDMI output already has the s709 lut embedded in the signal and as such there is no point in applying an s709 lut on the ninja itself. The only time this is not true is when shooting ProRes RAW in which case yes that works well and is what I do. You can record 4.2K-50/60 RAW on the Ninja V with the FX3, I'm not sure with the FX30 as I've not tried that. The FX3 will output a maximum resolution of 4.2K in ProRes RAW regardless of whether you use a Ninja V or Ninja V+. When not shooting RAW the FX3's max video resolution is 4K, it cannot do 6K either internally or externally.

[@thai_le_foto]

So from what I'm understanding from all this, is Cine EI is backwards, limiting, and only works if you have more than enough light? Took me a few videos to get enough information thinking this would be a great option, but it appears it is not a great option. For some reason when changing the EI, it changes the waveforms to an incorrect reading, making you adjust to get the correct spot on the waveform, but when you see the actual exposure, it is way off. Mainly in low light situations. People saying only go lower EI than the base ISO which is not possible in low light situations, and if the aperture of your lens is limited to 1.4 or 2.8, and can not open up more than that.....we are stuck losing the shadows unless we use the flexible ISO, which is the normal mode to see the actual proper exposure and give us the option to recover low light shadows. Albeit sacrificing adding noise, which we can try removing in post and more preferred than having no chance at regaining the shadows at all. Am I missing something there? I just ran a bunch of tests trying to make this work and trying to give Cine EI a chance and all it did was convince me it was a limiting setting and to not use it since I know what the base ISOs are for maximum dynamic range....yet with full control of the ISO I have the option to raise exposure when in Cine EI, I don't....it just gives a fake reading which makes me close the aperture even more to "balance the exposure to 0,0" which makes the image EXTREMELY more under exposed.

[@PaulJoy]

I think what your missing is that Cine EI is all about retaining dynamic range, which it does by forcing you to use base ISO. With regards to shooting in low light, have you tried using the high ISO Base of 12800 with the EI moved down a couple of stops? Doing that will force your exposure to be 2 stops brighter than what you see on the monitor however when you bring it back down in post you should retain more detail than you would just by increasing ISO without Cine EI.

[@thai_le_foto]

@@PaulJoy 80% of the time I'm in 12800, it one of the primary reasons I got this camera for what I need it for. and from my understanding, dropping it down two stops would force me to open up the lens more to therefore expose 2 stops higher.....which is what I would normally do anyways without Cine EI....but in low light being if we're at 12800. Only some of the times is it too bright and needs an ND filter, and most the time it is either JUST right, or a touch too low with the lens wide open. Meaning there is no way to increase exposure those two stops anymore unless slowing the shutter speed even more and having a potentially unusable blurry image. I just ran a test after chatting with you and another guy about it to confirm, it is indeed MUCH better to not be in Cine EI unless you are afraid of accidentally moving off the base ISO, which....knock on wood....almost never happens, at least for me. And I know where the base ISOs are which get the exact same dynamic range if it was in Cine EI. Anyways, I did a test for Cine EI vs Flexible ISO in a situation I cranked the flexible/normal ISO up to 51200 to get normal exposure, and also both at 12800. As expected the 12800 were 100% identical both visually and data wise on waveforms, and the Flexible ISO ended up being extremely better by a very very large margin than the Cine EI in low light. The felxible ISO gave me an almost clean and very usable image and the Cine EI going as far as possible and then having to match the rest in post....was extremely worse in noise and grain. So after finally testing it myself and actually seeing the files side by side in tests. The Cine EI definitely is a very limiting setting in all cases from manually setting at the base ISO to in bad situations, needing to have the option to raise the ISO, which ended up being MUCH better in camera than post. And that was using DR which is largely better and more powerful editor than both Adobe and FC. The main take away I've found was I need to find smaller and more convenient lights for certain situations that I can use for run and gun gym or other types of faster moving shooting and stay on flexible ISO for best results in all situations.

[@thai_le_foto]

@@PaulJoy The sad thing is, I can't find if the FX6 also has the same settings or if it only has Cine EI, since I heard that is it's primary shooting mode.....and the FX6 is something I've been eying for future camera. Albeit, even if it doesn't have flexible ISO, it is still WAY better low light than the other RED or BM cameras.....but still, the FX3 is kinda spoiling me.......

[@PaulJoy]

@@thai_le_foto Sure, if there’s not enough light even at the high base ISO then Cine EI isn’t going to help you. In that case you have to add light or increase gain and give up some dynamic range. In that situation I don’t think Id choose to shoot in Log anyway as it limits the shadow information in order to capture more highlight information hence why Cine EI helps you shift the data higher in the range.

[@thai_le_foto]

@@PaulJoy Uhhh, Not sure that would be entirely correct. The whole reason for log is to retain that dynamic range the other settings can't. Also since the other shoot modes max out at 3200 or 4000 ISO, would would be extremely worse. From what everyone is explaining and how it's written online, it seems Cine EI is just a middle man, when you get the exact same results without the extra step without it. Just seems confusing. From what is being said, Cine EI you change EI setting which does nothing except show you a false reading to match.....but under normal situations you would already know by changing the settings to where you want the waveforms to be to get all the shadows and highlights needed, which ends up being exactly the same as the Cine EI results....just without having to do any extra steps.....I just figured there would be a better reason for it. I wanted to hope this would be a cool setting but I hate middle man stuff and that is exactly what this feels like now after all the research and actual testing. =/