Classic Bus Histories: Foden NC

[@andrewhawthorn8289]

Great video! Im Edwin Fodens x3 great grandson. My great uncle john Hawthorn was chief designer and always said Foden should just stick to what they do best and focus on custom made trucks. Anyway im sure that weak transmission ect was due to some copyright Leyland had over a certain design, Foden were struggling at the time due to the totally unnecessary massive expansion aswell. Made me laugh when you mentioned over engineering. That was the Foden way!

[@JakeSCOC]

@@andrewhawthorn8289 Hi Andrew, it's a shame that this bus didn't succeed as it would have totally changed the UK market. That sounds right regarding the transmission as Leyland had their fingers in so many pies. I wonder if Foden were looking at a Self Changing Gears gearbox originally? Thanks for watching and thank you for commenting.

[@unclenolly3207]

I remember the SYPTE one - but I didn’t realise it was a Foden. I assumed it was an ex Doncaster Transport bus that the SYPTE had acquired following the formation of the PTE. Thanks for educating me - my bus knowledge is vastly improving thanks to you. 😁

[@JakeSCOC]

@@unclenolly3207 Always happy to help Uncle Nolly! Glad you liked the video.

[@anth5122]

I was an apprentice during this time at Wigan Lane and vaguely remember these Buses, I stayed there until it’s closure in 2005, very sad day

[@JakeSCOC]

@@anth5122 I bet it was terribly sad. It was certainly sad for those of us who were only associated to Northern Counties by enthusiasm but for those who had a more personal connection it must have been horrendous.

[@WOLFIE-96B-UK]

I learnt a lot from the video, I knew nothing about Foden's involvement in bus manufacture. Great stuff!

[@JakeSCOC]

@@WOLFIE-96B-UK That's great Wolfie. Thanks 👍🏼

[@thedaddie]

Another excellent video absolutely love your videos keep up the excellent work

[@JakeSCOC]

@@thedaddie Thank you very much.

[@mikehindson-evans159]

Rarer than a Unicorn, but distinctive in so many ways. Thanks for the research which obviously went into this. It is a rare documentary that can detail the life history of VERY example that was ever built.

[@JakeSCOC]

@@mikehindson-evans159 Thanks I'm glad you enjoyed it. Yes, I'm trying hard to think about any other buses that I could do that on... I think it's a short list!

[@adamlee3772]

Thank you for uploading this video. Very interesting to watch. Good to see SYPTE getting a mention there. I remember seeing that bus but thought they had a few. Perhaps 10. But that was just a guess on my part.

[@JakeSCOC]

@@adamlee3772 No problem Adam. Glad you liked it and it rekindled happy memories. Maybe they were Atlanteans of Dominators?? They had a few other batches with the same body.

[@adamlee3772]

@ thinking back, SYPTE had odds and sods in the fleet with fleet numbers in the 500 range. I do remember their Leyland Olympians had 500 numbers but can’t remember what exactly.

[@jadeboswell-rz2ly]

Hi Jake, Dad's opinion on the NC was that buses really don't need retarders due to there stop/start nature and fitting the Voith unit which was designed for coach on motorway use was its achilies heel. Good drivers can manage step gradients, but Foden thought they knew better.

[@JakeSCOC]

@@jadeboswell-rz2lyHi Jade. It does overly complicate things but the problem is - especially nowadays - finding good drivers!

[@craigsibley8161]

Another nice episode from SCTV 👍👍👍 Didn't realise so few were made. What a shame...

[@JakeSCOC]

@@craigsibley8161 Thanks Craig. Yes if only they'd revised the transmission and maybe put a Voith box in, it could have been a goer.

[@craigsibley8161]

@JakeSCOC Exactly 👍

[@StephenAllcroft]

Overweight, mismatch between engine and gearbox, transfer box weak, cooling not as effective as competitors : leaf sprung. Cost nearly as much as a Titan. Foden in administration from late 1976. I am surprised they got as many as eight completed.

[@ViatronTumpington]

Hi i'm viatron from Sheffield once again, the tribute to the Foden NC rear engined double deck bus was ahead of it's time via only two of these rare ones to be preserved including one from W.Y.P.T.E. while the other one from W.M.P.T.E. & it was very sad that Foden didn't kept up like on the other hand with both the M.C.W. METROBUS & the Dennis Dominator versions which they had great success thoughout the 1980s & the early 90s. But anyway with the downfall of the now very rare Foden NC via one for S.Y.P.T.E. bodied by East Lancs of Blackburn were kind of a very strange combination. But also Northern Counties did only bodied the very unique centre entrance Atkinson PD746 double deck bus for S.H.M.D. No.70 (now preserved at the Museum of Transport in Manchester) & also the very unusual Daimler Fleetline CRC6 dual door rear offside engined double deck bus from Walsall Corporation (also preserved) at Wythall near Birmingham. Thank you for your co-operation on this very special rare Foden NC bus subject from David Viatron Esquire of crookes in Sheffield.

[@JakeSCOC]

@@ViatronTumpington Hi David, glad you liked this video. Thank you for the information on the Atkinson, I didn't know about that. I suspect most large vehicle manufacturers in the UK have had a go at building buses or coaches?

[@69Phuket]

Excellent! PS was my local garage in Manchester.

[@JakeSCOC]

@@69Phuket A nice local connection for you then? Is Princess Road the one that has part of the museum in it?

[@69Phuket]

@@JakeSCOC PS was demolished 10 years ago. Queens Road in Cheetham Hill (QS) has the museum attached and is still there.

[@JakeSCOC]

@69Phuket Ahh thank you. I'm not very knowledgeable about Manchester garages. That's my Dad's department!

[@tangerinedream7211]

Remember the PMT foden here in North Staffordshire in period ,alongside the Dennis Dominator and an out of sequence registered VR as the testing trio. I'd read PMT put a high price on the bus after withdrawal leading to no one coming up with the readies, a shame.

[@JakeSCOC]

@@tangerinedream7211 Yes it was. We could have easily had a third Foden preserved if so.

[@marksinthehouse1968]

LT loaned one of the GMPTE buses saw it a couple of times coming out of Chiswick works ,I must admire the NC bodywork it was neat and tidy in design ,I like the potteries once known as PMT so only ran for 3 weeks in a month 😂does anyone get it 😊 Cheers Mark 😊😊

[@JakeSCOC]

@@marksinthehouse1968 Hi Mark, that's interesting to know. I must admit I was surprised that LT didn't get involved. Now I know they did. Yes the Northern Counties bodywork is very crisp and clean looking. We had family in Manchester (Pendlebury to be exact) and I always loved seeing the GM standards, especially in the brown, orange and white livery.

[@StephenAllcroft]

At the time this was being designed the Foden two stroke was still in production, that, or a Detroit, would have been a better match to the Allison MT645. The Ferodo retarder was a friction device and had a one shaft connection anywhere in the driveline. Crosville fitted it to some of their Leyland Nationals, and it was later used as a component in the Maxwell gearbox.

[@JakeSCOC]

@@StephenAllcroft Thanks Stephen. It's a shame they didn't persevere with changing the engine or the transmission to get a better match. It may have made it more reliable.

[@highpath4776]

@@JakeSCOC Or just re-visit their earlier rear engined design - presumably better than a Roadliner ?

[@JakeSCOC]

@highpath4776 Well yes. That's a very good suggestion.

[@bobwalsh172]

A lot of bus operators had a fixation on Gardner engines at the time. This was not without reason, as those engines were well suited to bus work; but it may have led Fodens to suppose that they wouldn't make many sales unless they could offer Gardner power. It's unfortunate that the attempts to marry the Gardner engine to the Allison transmission evidently didn't work.

[@JakeSCOC]

@bobwalsh172 Yes as much as I love the Gardner lumps I suspect that they were going down a bit of a rabbit hole mechanically with this. I think you're right though, they probably did think (more than likely correctly too) that Gardner equals it being more widely accepted.

[@markstramtrainbuscapades1729]

A very small nitpick but 6300 was actually a WMPTE bus, rather than the post deregulation West Midlands Travel! I remember occasionally seeing it, on it's regular route 50 (Maypole) hsaunt, though sadly never rode it!

[@JakeSCOC]

@@markstramtrainbuscapades1729 Yes apologies. A slip of the tongue there!

[@a11csc]

fascinating Jake

[@JakeSCOC]

@@a11csc Thank you

[@peterwilliamallen1063]

Correction, ROC 300R was not dilivered to West Midlands Travel, it was dilivered to the West Midlands PTE and was withdrawn by the time West Midlands Travel was formed

[@JakeSCOC]

@@peterwilliamallen1063 Yes you are correct. Slip of the tongue I'm afraid

[@DavidJones-wx4im]

The PMT Foden was sold to Trevor Wigley for scrap. It's engine was removed by cutting off the chassis frame and it was still in NBC red. The SYPTE version was the odd man out. Apparently someone at Northern Counties was discurtious to C C Hall of SYPTE and it was bodied by East Lancs. It was also classed as a Foden NZC.

[@JakeSCOC]

@@DavidJones-wx4im It's a shame when they literally cut an engine out like that. I've seen a few VRs like that. Can't do anything with them at all.

[@paulhopkinson610]

The SY one had an East Lancs body as NCME wouldn't build one with two doors. That may have been the cause of the discourtesy but was the underlying reason.

[@JakeSCOC]

@paulhopkinson610 Interesting. Thanks Paul.

[@carlwalker4808]

I do remember the PMT Foden NC was for sale in the CBW(Coach & Bus Week) in the past. It was a shame it wasn't saved from scrap. l've never seen the bus personally but only in bus magazines and books. I know they are two of the buses preserved now. l'm hopefully to see them both one day.

[@JakeSCOC]

@carlwalker4808 I suppose we should be thankful that at least two of these rare buses survive.

[@jamesfrench7299]

Alison functions on higher revs so was a bizarre choice to mate with a Gardner. It shows that the Voith fits well with lower racing engines as it was a successful match in the Metrobus. I drove MANs with poor low rev torque mated to Voiths that were slow from a standing start. This all changed with an Allison World Series transmission fitted to mo3271 which transformed the performance of the vehicle allowing the engine to be in it’s higher revving power band much more of the time. It went from a bus most drivers hated to one that was sought after.

[@JakeSCOC]

@@jamesfrench7299 Thanks James. If they'd maybe put a Voith unit in or maybe higher revving engine they could have dropped the torque converter and possibly had a much more reliable bus.

[@jamesfrench7299]

@ I have heard Voiths are quite pricey and Alison is much cheaper. That was the factor in putting the Allison in the MAN when it’s Voith catastrophically failed. In that case it was more than fit for purpose. Adding a rev multiplying converter added complication to an already daft choice of transmission to a super low revving lump.

[@JakeSCOC]

@jamesfrench7299 Knowing how hard up for cash Foden was the cheaper option sounds about right - despite Northern Counties paying for the development.

[@jamesfrench7299]

@@JakeSCOC 👍 I think we have worked out the reasoning.

[@steveastin2684]

I've had a ride on the wmpte one just after it's preservation debut seemed a decent enough vehicle overall

[@JakeSCOC]

@@steveastin2684 I'm envious Steve. Never been on one but I've read the same as what you have said. The ride is smooth and comfortable.

[@michaelcolllett9082]

Remember well wmpte foden 6300 was used on Birmingham 50 to Maypole which I ride .Good heard had been saved as 6301 was Leyland Fleetline Fleetline with Leyland engine not standard Gardner

[@JakeSCOC]

@@michaelcolllett9082 So you rode on the WMPTE one? What did you think?

[@leylandlynxvlog]

It's a shame no one saved the only East Lancs bodied one. Perhaps it would have been more reliable if they had used a different engine. Did the Cummins L10 exist back then? What engines did Foden use in their trucks?

[@JakeSCOC]

@@leylandlynxvlog The East Lancs one would have made a brilliant comparison to an early Dominator in preservation. I believe a lot of Foden trucks had Gardner engines in them although Foden did build their own engines too.

[@leylandlynxvlog]

They all seemed to only last until 1985.

[@JakeSCOC]

@@leylandlynxvlog They did. I suspect operators just got fed up with all the transmission failures.

[@timbounds7190]

So....Foden took a famously reliable and economical engine, mated it with an entirely unsuitable transmission, thus created an unreliable, uneconomical bus! Genius!

[@JakeSCOC]

@@timbounds7190 Exactly. You would think Gardner engine =winner but not in this case.

[@leylandlynxvlog]

Imagine refusing to give it to preservation and selling it for scrap for £800, they could have at least sold it to the preservation group.

[@JakeSCOC]

@@leylandlynxvlog Just shows how petty some people can be eh?

[@leylandlynxvlog]

@ certainly does