Classic Bus Histories Episode 6: Leyland Titan (B15 & TN Series)

[@melodymonger]

As a 14 year old bus nerd who had to catch the bus to school I was dead excited when I read in 'Buses' magazine that the new Leyland Titan was going to be introduced to regular service in my area. They were *so* shiny and modern and were very comfortable to ride on. Occasionally, if I couldn't get a 248 to Upminster I would get on a London Country Bristol VR running on the 370 route. The contrast between the two buses was stark. Everything rattled on the VR: seats, windows, luggage compartments, ticket machines, etc. The interior was also very drab and utilitarian. The Titan, on the other hand, was fast and relatively quiet and just felt like the future at the time. PS I'm enjoying all of your classic bus videos, so thanks 🤩🙏👏

[@JakeSCOC]

@@melodymonger Thanks for your kind words. Glad you're enjoying the series. The Titan certainly has a much more solid feel about it that the VR! That colourful interior must have looked so bright and fresh when new too?

[@melodymonger]

@JakeSCOC Yes, they were so bright and welcoming inside.

[@jamesfrench7299]

⁠How fortunate you got to experience them daily when new whilst being a bus freak so you appreciated them. Closest I got to that were Leyland Tigers in the late 80s with Sydney bodywork based off German VOV design.

[@Gideonsmythe]

Excellent summary of their lives. I grew up in the seventies near Barking Garage and watched my local route 62 go from RT to RM then T within a year. While nothing compares to the RT and RM, the Titan was a significant improvement on the DMS and within a few of years Titans and Routemasters were the only double deckers you'd see in East London. Then came tendering and a return of the DMS and, worse, new MK2 Metrobuses in Titan's East London stronghold. It seemed....wrong. It was weird being deep in Metrobus territory in North or West London. Same city, completely different buses. They may have carried on for longer were it not for the low-floor revolution. It's incredible that in less than 7 years, TfL replaced every double decker type with new step-less vehicles and while that change was necessary it was a period when it felt like the soul of London Buses was sent for scrap.

[@ViatronTumpington]

Hi i'm viatron from Sheffield again, well done for coming up with a very good idea with the Leyland Titan B15 & the TN series integral rear engined double deck bus. But one very short lived bus type were the FODEN NC version which only five of them to be built via one of them didn't receive the standard Northern countries bodywork & instead it received an East Lancashire bus body for S.Y.P.T.E. back in the 80s & I hope you will come up with another Classic Bus Histories video titled "The Rise & Fall Of The Foden NC' including the older half cab Foden PVD6 versions. Thanks for your co-operation on this subject from David Viatron Esquire of crookes in Sheffield. So hold very tight please DING! DING!

[@mikehindson-evans159]

Well worth waiting for - please never fret about spending a little more time on polishing. Your audience is appreciative. Great video.

[@JakeSCOC]

Glad you liked it and thank you.

[@mistie710]

I remember the first production models coming into service at Hornchurch Garage (RD) when I was still going to school. To start with, they tended to show up on route 165 but when they eventually made it onto the 252, I'd sometimes wait for a Titan rather than one of the shabby DMS buses which were slowly being withdrawn. I still occasionally see T1 running around - not sue who has it now but it's always a welcome sight.

[@JakeSCOC]

Must have been very impressive when they first appeared.

[@DarrenSaw]

When a classic bus histories appears in the notifications it's time to drop whatever else I'm doing, make a cuppa and enjoy. Absolutely loved the Titan, it seemed pretty space age when the first examples appeared, scary how long ago that is now.

[@JakeSCOC]

Glad you're enjoying the series.

[@busnutta]

A great bus to drive and ride in. I grew up with them in South East London in the 1980s. I drove them at Bromley Garage from 1996 to 2000. Also helped restore T1030 when it first entered preservation. Happy days!

[@peterwilliamallen1063]

After not getting their actual full order for Leyland Titans the WMPTE operated their five Titans for some years being shared between variouse Garages in the West Midlands PTE area, as these were non stndard they were eventually sold to London Transport where they operated for years with the London Fleet but unlike the LT Titans with Dual Door configeration they operated as single door Buses with the MCW Metrobus taking over as the standard WMPTE Double Decker bus and the Leyland National as the standard WMPTE single deck bus, these Leyland Titans were later followed to London by the fleet of Volvo Alsa buses which again were not standard to the West Midlands Travel fleet. Nearly all the five WMPTE Leyland Titans have been preserved with one being scrapped and one preserved in LT Livery

[@WaterlooBlue]

I started at Leyland in 1976 in the Group Quality Department in Leyland responsible for ensuring new projects, trucks and buses had the right equipment to build the vehicles. After one week I was sent to Park Royal to look at the Titan. The QA Manager down there, Cyril Risbridger, was very accommodating and helpful however after spending some time in the production areas it became immediately obvious that there was a great resentment against Leyland, Leyland employees (to them Park Royal did not count as Leyland) and the Titan in particular, probably because it was a completely different build type being of an integral construction. On return to Leyland I did report some concerns about the production of the B15 and the bad atmosphere at Park Royal. Jake quite rightly identified the concerns in the video. Also Eastern Coachwork employees were not keen on building it either, not a traditional bus body on chassis plus the B45 was on the horizon. The Original spec. to fit the Leyland 500 would have been a disaster, that engine, the headless wonder, was an unmitigated disaster. Garners were always preferred by bus operators although the TL11 was a decent engine. Sad story all around.

[@JakeSCOC]

@@WaterlooBlue Hi George. Fascinating to read this. Many thanks for sharing your memories. Part of me always wonders how an ECW bodied Titan would have turned out? Would they have put their own slant on it?

[@WaterlooBlue]

@@JakeSCOC All vehicle engineering was controlled by Leyland Bus engineers in Leyland HQ and Farington Works.at that time. They had final say even though ECW did have an engineering department, they reported to HQ. Leyland Bus had a senior engineer assigned to the ECW plant full time.

[@keithbruce6926]

Another excellent video. This whole series is supurb. Keep up the good work.

[@JakeSCOC]

Thanks Keith

[@bittabivvy]

I saw a Leyland Titan (A928 SYE) in Las Vegas, back in 2015.

[@PaddyWV]

Two or three Titans still with Stagecoach Lancaster until the late Noughties. I don't know if any of those were preserved, having lasted that long! Hams Travel in Tonbridge had a few too, always impressive powering up the hill from the station towards Tunbridge Wells on the dreaded "Rail Replacement" service.

[@JBFlytography]

Stagecoach East Scotland had an open top Titan until 2013. They’ve still got it now but it’s not in service.

[@grahamariss2111]

Remember reading about this in the science magazine I got as a kid, it had a cut away drawing of it, described as the "Bus of the future". Never turned up in Coventry, around 79 we started getting MCW Metro Bus in Coventry to replace the Damiler and later Leyland Fleetlines.

[@peterwilliamallen1063]

I believe Leyland Titan 7005 operated from Coventry for a while as there is a picture in a a book called "West Midlands Buses and Trolly Buses" by Malcolme Keeley showing 7005 leaving Coventry Pool Meadow Bus station on 22nd August 1979 on Service 42 to Balsall Common via Westwood Heath which was a Coventry Garage Service as the Birminghm WMPTE 42 service operated to New Oscot, this bus later migrated to Walsall I believe later on. So yes one was trialed at Coventry

[@jamesfrench7299]

I came across T51 in a Sydney backstreet near the airport years ago. It had been driven all the way from Perth. I took some brief video on my cheap phone. It's now a mobile cocktail bar in Sydney and is almost unrecognisable. Melbourne had a few being used as open toppers.

[@MannyAntipov]

Re. Second hand use, I would like to mention that Reading’s 68 wound itself up at Thamesbus, an independent operator in southwest London and Surrey, and successors throughout the 2000s. It still survives but is derelict and not in good condition.

[@andicog]

Used to drive ex London Titans at MTL north, good bus and they made a nice noise, I've never driven a Leyland bus that I didn't like, first was the Atlantean, last was a Lynx that was very quick.

[@paulchance3766]

Great bus though did see then break down a bit, plus went on one as a special to see Shakespeares birthplace in 93' or 94' and on the way back it brokedown .... I remember knowing about them but only seeing them for the first time in brixton london in 1983.

[@JakeSCOC]

Yes I've had a few breakdown on me! Mostly the spring on the emergency engine stop going or losing a belt on the compressor!

[@stevedickson5853]

Sheffield was alive with Titans not so long ago run by Mass Transit doing the School runs painted in a horrid green livery , and it's a good job they were built well with the rowdy kids of today lol.

[@WOLFIE-96B-UK]

Excellent informative video 👍 It was great to see the London Northern RML in route 10 livery, as a crew driver at Holloway I drove that route and the 139.

[@JakeSCOC]

Thanks, glad you liked it

[@DavidFennessy-yj7du]

I drove the Titans at Catford Garage in the late 90’s, they stunk of damp must inside as they had no anti freeze/corrosion inhibitor left in them after continual topping up the header tank with raw water from a watering can at Victoria for instance on the 185’s , which was my main route, they used to glide although sluggish to accelerate, they were on the whole fit for purpose though, couldn’t believe how boring it was to sit on Stanstead Road in a rush hour at five o’clock on a summer’s afternoon though, they had firm steering but not heavy as such

[@JakeSCOC]

My Titans still have that dampy smell upstairs too!

[@aldeanblair9727]

Such a beautiful bus ❤ is such a shame they stopped making them😢

[@JakeSCOC]

@@aldeanblair9727 They're brilliant buses. Smooth to travel on and forgiving to drive.

[@JohnBrunton]

One of my favourite buses.

[@Zen7658-i2u]

Thanks for this excellent

[@JakeSCOC]

Thanks

[@craigsibley8161]

Good stuff 👍👍👍

[@ROCKINGMAN]

Another nice mini-doc on this type. Liked the Leyland lettering on the prototypes. Remember seeing them on route 24 back in '76 in Charing Cross Rd., wondering what they were. What is B15, could it be the 15th Leyland project? I saw one of the prototypes in Woolwich about 1990, possibly running out from Catford. They looked very shabby towards the end. I was indifferent to them, they were just boxed shaped and lacked the character of earlier buses. Would like to see you talk about Metro-Scania, possibly RM and RF types. Great stuff!

[@JakeSCOC]

Thanks. Glad you're enjoying the series. The B in B15 I believe is Bus so Project B15 meant Project Bus 15. Would probably be the 15th in the series. B20 was the quiet Fleetline, B45 was the Olympian and B51 was the ECW Leopard coach.

[@ROCKINGMAN]

@@JakeSCOC I guessed that was the case, thanks, hope to see more.

[@raymondhunt6109]

Drove one of the 1st Reading Titans ( 68 ) and if I remember rightly you could drive them auto or semi auto. Leyland would only spec them in London Transport interiors as Reading only wanted 2.

[@johngreene6805]

I loved driving a T wish I could drive one again

[@highpath4776]

Doesnt London Bus Co at North Weald have one running ?

[@petercollins5550]

I drove one, T68 for Avon Coaches, a pleasure to drive.

[@marksinthehouse1968]

The mock up photo looked interesting hint of RM in the dome area

[@sameyers2670]

Thank you for another interesting video. A couple of requests if I may, could you cover the Leyland/Volvo Olympian and the Dennis Dart please? Thanks.

[@JakeSCOC]

Glad you liked it. Yes they are both worthy of inclusion and are on the list.

[@richse188]

A batch of these were being used as school buses by Z&S in the Aylesbury area until probably less than 10 years ago.

[@michaelkeen5010]

Great video, it was a great shame that the numerically last London Titan, T1125 (B125 WUV), after service with Stagecoach East Kent at Herne Bay, and becoming their Show Bus painted in the ‘swoops’ livery, now resides in a forlorn state in a yard in another part of Kent. Also, in your photo at the end of the video showing 4 Titans lined up, am I right in thinking that T348, in Nu-Venture blue/white livery was the former Stagecoach East Kent example that also received the ‘swoops’ livery and was then based at Folkestone.

[@JakeSCOC]

Thanks Michael. Yes a real shame about 1125. Apparently it has a gearbox fault. I think you might be right about 348 too.

[@brianfriend3204]

Passed my bus test on titan at Plumstead before going to Catford garage.

[@JakeSCOC]

I passed mine on a Titan at BX and went to Peckham.

[@tpaul2866]

401S and 402S were based at Hornchurch I seem to recall

[@JakeSCOC]

Yes that's right 👍🏼

[@russb2286]

Had a ride on BCK 706 R. Back in 1979. Demonstrator for preston corporation.

[@1171karl]

How about a video on the Volvo Ailsa? I always thought they were quite interesting, would be good to see what inspired the design and its pros and cons.

[@JakeSCOC]

Good suggestion.

[@iainclark5964]

The top deck windows of tbe Titan used to leak like sieves if I remember.

[@mmichaelheath6194]

The Titan was designed around the London Bus specification which included the very expensive power hydraulic braking system. When the time came for the order for production was to be placed, there was a change in top management in London Bus and suddenly Metro Cammel were brought into the frame with the Metrobus. This had non of the London Bus special features - using air brakes instead of hydraulics. In addition, the production difficulties at Park Royal were due ro the workforce realising that the design "de-skilled" construction and so removed the vested interests of the various trades within that factory. In addition, Leyland had recently closed the AEC Southall factory and the workforce saw the redundancy deal that the AEC staff got. When Leyland "threw the gauntlet" down to the works committee to either increase production or Park Royal is closed, the reaction was "fine lets discuss terms". Once this had been agrreed, production shot up overnight and when the factory finally closed it was reported that only one man hadn't found another job.

[@simonwinter8839]

I could be wrong but I believe the Metrobus was delivered with hydrolic brakes and was refitted with air brakes when the bus had been in service for quite a while. I used to drive them and it was around 1990 that the hydrolic brakes were replaced with air brakes.The bulk of the braking was by a retarded that would cut out when the bus was moving at 3 m.p.h. When I enquired as to why the braking system was changed I was told that the hydrolic brakes had proved inadequate.

[@mmichaelheath6194]

Thank you, the problem with the Titan was that there was not enough room in the front independent suspension to retro - fit air brakes. The hydraulic brake actuators were very expensive to replace - over £1000 each apparently..@@simonwinter8839

[@DELTIC55007]

London Metrobuses had hydraulic brakes from new.

[@simonwinter8839]

@DELTIC55007 That's what I thought.Towards the end of 1990 London General (now Go Ahead) replaced them with air brakes.I was driving them on route 11 out of Stockwell garage.

[@JakeSCOC]

@ronmccullock1407 Hi Ron, I've seen your copy on Flickr but I assumed you had got it the same way I did! Mine came from a photo dealer at Detling a few years ago and has 'British Leyland' hand written on the back. If I'd have thought it was your picture I would have without doubt given you full photo credit for it as I do with all the pictures used on the video.

[@groeacht8525]

Metrobus next, or Ailsa / Volvo?

[@JakeSCOC]

Got to go back a bit before we go forward.... Doing a few halfcabs then moving back into the Olympian and Metrobus era.

[@stuartross282]

Titan was to complex built like tanks Olympian was its simply brother

[@stevenmacdonald9619]

The Leyland Titan was ahead of it's time, for sure. You only need to look at an Alexander Dennis Enviro, or a Wright Streetdeck to see that many of the exact same design features are there, before the hybrid and electric version started. As for the downfall of Leyland, it has to remembered just how terrible the late 70's was for Union strikes, or Union busting, depending on which side of that picket line you stand. What is fact, is the UK was very close to bankruptcy, and there were two solutions, neither of which were ideal. Either workers were going to have us taking loans from the IMF (and we saw what happened to Greece), or having joined the Common Market (the disguise the European Union wore to fool everyone), allow the UK to fall deeper into their pockets. We know how this story still plays out today, and it's getting very much like the late 70's all over again.

[@simonflynn168]

There is still one West Midlands pte still on the road

[@peterwilliamallen1063]

There are more than one on the road, there are at least 4, one in LT livery, two in WMPTE livery and one in Midland Classic livery

[@simonwinter8839]

My Father always told me that a camel was a horse put together by a committee. I think the Titan falls into this category !

[@JakeSCOC]

That's a brilliant description!

[@simonwinter8839]

@jakeyb2003 They were actually quite a nice bus to drive -I've been working on the buses in London since 1974.

[@a11csc]

not something seen round these parts

[@HaiderHaider-kk1dz]

Leyland atlantean best buses volvo

[@petersmith4455]

why didn't the clowns use a leyland 0.680 engine ? so its not a true leyland

[@johnmontgomery9149]

Personally any I drove were heaps of 💩

[@JakeSCOC]

We had a couple at PM that were slow. That was mostly the door interlock though

[@marksinthehouse1968]

No I’m metrobus driver we had a batch from westlink at V but were sold on but I l drove the all leyland Olympian for LT and armchair at Brentford nice but the Volvo Olympian to me was a massive improvement drove those on rail replacement at general ,looking forward to a metrobus and maybe a metropolitan video Cheers Mark 😊😊

[@williamwatson5871]

John Montgomery what exactly was wrong with them ?

[@johnmontgomery9149]

@@williamwatson5871 they were well knackered by the time the came to Clydeside

[@williamwatson5871]

@johnmontgomery9149 ahhh I thought you drove them from new in London

[@GraemeWight-wx3xz]

I cant stand the newer buses. Overpriced and highly uncomfortable. The seats force you to sit with rounded shoulders all crammed in. I haven't got one for years. It'll be even worse now with all the invaders being handed driver jobs.

[@JakeSCOC]

The seats can certainly be a bit thin on some them. Almost like sitting on an ironing board!

[@GraemeWight-wx3xz]

@JakeSCOC : aye that too. And its 27 times more expensive than it was 40 years ago. It was 8p to get a bus into town. Its now 2 quid.