The DF64: Niche Killer?

[@arcoirisaycaramba2857]

7:36 James: So now seems like a good time to talk about... Me: Squarespace? James: Retention Me: Retention

[@Sheikahnox]

Best comment, thanks for making me laugh out loud 😆

[@AminHafiz]

I was about to double tap and fast forward 🤣

[@schubertuk]

More roughage is probably in order...

[@camsloan8671]

Lmao this killed me! 😂

[@OreoMcFluffy]

My moment was at 9:37 🤣 “Actually before we wrap up on the ergonomics stuff, (pause) let’s talk about our sponsor!”

[@maclunar]

"I got a little taste for the fancy-fancy" - James Hoffmann, 2021 (12:36)

[@dogflirt]

Aahahahaha I just went to the comments to make this exact post 😂

[@user-oj6jn5ii6e]

13:13 “It was pleasing in all the right places” - James Hoffman, 2021

[@chainbraindg]

this quote can summarize my spiral out of control into the world of coffee

[@theposeidontrident]

I was about to quote this line too! 😂🤣

[@ImnotgoingSideways]

Sounds like a line from Clockwork Orange.

[@kittisiri]

I've been using this grinder for a month now. There's something that James might have missed. The portafilter fork: When I received this grinder, it came with 2 rubber sleeves attached to the UPPER fork legs (as James' unit has), and 4 additional spare sleeves. That way, I can put the spare sleeves on the 2 LOWER legs, and it held any portafilter/dosing cup super tight. No problem at all. I even decided to remove the UPPER sleeves later on, so it's easier to put a portafilter in/out. Other than that.... The silicone declumping screen when you press the bellow: James was right. (However, after 2 weeks of use, I've learned when and how hard to press the bellow to deal with it.) The messiness if you don't spay some water before grinding for filter-size: James was right. The not-so-charming overall experience (compared to Niche Zero): James was right. The good quality of the ground coffee this machine produces: James was right. The low retention: James was right. Most of the time, it's within +/- 0.1g if you "bellow out" every time you grind. :) The solid build: This thing is heavy. Solidly, metally HEAVY! The awkward bellow lid: Hmm, I don't think it's awkward. It's a lid! James. C'mon. The weird, ugly-for-no-reason fonts: I didn't even notice until James pointed that out. Now I cannot unsee it. (and I'm sad) However, for the price I paid... $385 USD for the Zentis NZR-64 (this grinder's name in Thailand) AND Mazzer 033M burr combo VS $960 USD for the Niche Zero (yeah, that's the cheapest price you can find in Thailand, and it's still out of stock since January) it's a no-brainer. I'm using it every morning, and I'm glad I bought it. Cheers!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

[@mohdbq6694]

Political things are there why not telling honest truth abou the grinder

[@mohdbq6694]

I mean yes niche is better flow , worse build and material, df64 is 2 time heavier than niche

[@kittisiri]

@ You're welcome! If there's anything you guys wanna know more about this grinder, feel free to ask.

[@kittisiri]

@@mohdbq6694 I'm sorry but I don't really understand what your point is. If you're criticizing James, well, he just reviewed a grinder. Don't see how that being political. And he did a pretty accurate and informative review on the product.

[@lendl3001]

"No chaff in the coffee, it's entirely on the grinder" HAHAHAHAHA

[@BurnsRubber]

Laughed out loud 😂

[@ashfanman]

Actually choked on my coffee.

[@TheBradfordG]

Definitely snark! I love it!

[@broderfoder9348]

The "chaff everywhere" is a radar countermeasure feature.

[@dddsa5951]

These two look like Wall-E and Eva of coffee grinders

[@vanhoeppen]

I scrolled through all the comments to check if anyone else saw this! XD

[@remnant24]

You must be visually impaired.

[@randydowdy4064]

Tape some arms on it and you will have a "Tom Servo" robot from MST3k

[@spamcan9208]

@@randydowdy4064 Love that show!

[@walterw2]

i was thinking the old "PC vs Mac" aesthetic but i like yours better

[@carolinarobinson7033]

“I’m not, in this moment, having a particularly bad time.” - James Hoffman 2021. We’re all having a great time here James!

[@yajt6651]

The biggest Niche-killer could be Niche and their being so “supply constrained”. This DF64 may not be the right fit for everyone but any respectable grinder that someone can actually take home beats waiting months for the *chance* to pre-order a Niche. Actually having a grinder is a rather important part of the experience of using a grinder.

[@maxwalker4121]

Niche is a new company - it takes time and money to grow. Cash flow has probably killed more companies than poor design.

[@siddharthkrish]

unfortunately, the reason why I finally gave in and bought something else (eureka mignon). after staying up till 2 am my time on pre-order days 2-3 times and being unable to place the order, my need for good coffee overtook my need for a niche product ;)

[@cirruspe]

Couldn't agree more. It shows that it's more to a company than just creating a great product. Also seems like for non UK buyers the Niche becomes very expensive when you include all VAT and import taxes.

[@PrOXiMATEHD]

@@siddharthkrish funny to see someone have the exactly same thought process as me lmao

[@joeees7790]

They're still just pre-order? Wow. I see if you want an EU model shipped in maybe August that's actually a "Buy Now" option on their site. UK/US not so much. I like the idea and execution but I have concerns about the longevity of the company and parts availability for repair should the need arise.

[@hien512]

" It's ugly for no reason" I've never related so much to a grinder

[@Dre_Wolf]

“It’s just ugly for no reason.” - James Hoffmann (2021)

[@martyhopkirk6826]

Hey! Is your name deliberately echoing Dire Wolf? If so, congratulations!

[@lizcademy4809]

Could have ben worse ... at least they didn't use Comic Sans!

[@bbenny91]

@@lizcademy4809 or Papyrus...

[@GarrettMaring]

This is so true. It is offensively ugly for no reason. It's targeted too--the Solo looks intentionally undesigned. As a lesson to the folks who designed this, shit is not minimalism...

[@Dre_Wolf]

@@GarrettMaring I specially agree with the power button placement, too. The designers should rethink this. Tsk tsk..

[@psychedalek]

"There's almost no chaff in the coffee, it's entirely on the grinder."

[@doughooker1784]

I almost died from laughter from that bit... that chaff mess was epic

[@clayskii]

Getting rid of fines the easy way

[@evindrews]

lmao had a good laugh

[@zehph]

Absolute savage! 😎

[@terryzettle3617]

You don’t want it in the coffee........so, yeah!

[@zhuoming95]

Seeing the Morning Capsule machine at the background....can't wait for your thoughts & review!

[@vvalekk]

i was wondering what a nespresso machine was doing in james' studio. Today i learned..

[@clifbarnett131]

I just bought the DF64 about a month ago. I'd seen this grinder floating around in some of your other videos and was scared of the day you'd review it (thinking you'd point out tons of flaws that I hadn't noticed). Thankfully, I agree with everything you've critiqued about this grinder but I still love it. Pairing it alongside my Comandante C40 has been great. Previously I was hand grinding for espresso so this really felt like a step up (despite a less than perfect workflow). Also, thankfully, I enjoy tinkering like you pointed out. Thanks for the review!

[@manofthewild07]

Thats what I was wondering. I'd be more interested in seeing a comparison of this to hand grinders. Currently I have 2 grinders, one for espresso and one for pour over/french press/etc. I would like to replace both with one reasonably priced grinder that can handle a range of grind sizes. Nobody seems to do reviews that compare hand grinders with entry level/mid level electric grinders.

[@radleychin6565]

@@manofthewild07 yes please a comparison to hand grinders. My current workflow is Hario Skerton Pro paired with the Flair Level Espresso Signature non pro. Would I notice an improvement from this or would I need to get something like the Niche to notice an improvement over my Hario Skerton Pro? I'm intrigued by the DF64

[@BigTwitchy]

@@manofthewild07 Ditto - I want a decent grinder, but it has to be capable of both filter and espresso as kitchen space is limited. And my better half would kill me if I got two more unitaskers.

[@vihanjain6975]

@@manofthewild07 pretty sure a JX Pro or a K-Plus with its blind basket would suit your needs well!

[@mattscarf]

@@radleychin6565 You’ll notice a huge difference with this compared to the Hario. But that would also be the case with a 1zpresso.

[@Krmpfpks]

The fact that you can get worked up about the font on a grinder is the reason we love you!

[@LordOwen4]

Yes, you can bellow as a verb. See: Brian Blessed.

[@simply_psi]

That made me chuckle, Brian Blessed is definitely the definition of to bellow, "Gordon's alive"

[@sh_rl.lr_hs]

That coffee dust happening without the spritz of water seems like a HUGE design flaw

[@FredKitt]

James: "Can you verb Bellow?" Me: "My day is infinitely better now!"

[@vl507]

Can you verb, verb?! 🤪

[@matthewr8502]

There isn't verb that cannot be nouned[*]. And below is a lovely word and so enjoyable to say that increasing its range is a good thing. [*] Except medal in the context of the Olympics. Those people should be burned with cleansing fire.

[@Lu-db1uf]

Welcome to the English language lol

[@paab3567]

With just over a month of use now, I have to say I've thoroughly enjoyed the DF64. At the beginning I found that it was messy but learned to deal with it very quickly. I've never had the issue of the dosing cup or portafilter ever slipping out. Have been grinding around the 10-15 range for espresso depending on the beans. I've had surprisingly fluffy grinds, but find that they are heavily distributed towards the front, and if I used the bellows while the portafilter was full that it would blow away some of the grinds found therein. The solution has been remarkably simple and the workflow has become entirely pleasant: grind into the portafilter with only the lid on -> Remove the lid and place on bellows -> place the bellows back onto the grinder -> Replace portafilter with dosing ring -> Press bellows into dosing cup and top off. Admittedly, having written that out it feels like it's a lot to do, but, on the day to day, it feels relatively premium (when compared to grinders below the $1200 range) and really has produced a very good shot/cup. The button placement is ludicrous. The fact that the power button is always lit up is a little weird. The design is meh. 8/10 would buy again and recommend to a friend

[@zenadventurer69]

If you’re looking at the DF64, no doubt you’re going to watch this. And you should. Everything James outlines here is still valid, even though it was shot more than a year ago. But a couple of things of which you should be aware: new models feature a revised dial, thanks to James. A number of online purveyors make aftermarket grind indicators which slip on over the top - they are a must. With regard to criticisms of the declumper and the mess: valid. A number of viable solutions, from aftermarket chutes/declumpers to slanted portafilter forks (recommend) to slanted sleeves that fit over the stock dosing cup as well as some larger aftermarket cups ideal for doses to 60g (in my experience). Used in concert, these virtually eliminate any overspray, even with vigorous bellowing. Speaking of: One thing James missed, which will help with any “re-grinding” issues…always starts “bellowing” toward the end of the grind while the grinder is still grinding and continue through past the point where all the grind has been dispensed into the dosing cup. This, along with the mods, will help mitigate the mess. Per Joe at Espresso Outlet (a great source for this grinder), you really don’t need to do the declumper mod if you combine these accessories and remember to bellow while the grinder is still grinding.

[@TheFinalMB]

James: “And this does fit inside a 58mm portafilter” Me: *stares with derision at my 51mm portafilter*

[@Melnihr]

I have a df64 and 51mm portafilter, and I can say it comfortably fits inside my 51mm dosing funnel if not the portafilter directly 👌

[@TheFinalMB]

@@Melnihr that’s is actually pretty reassuring :)

[@andrewsharp9131]

@@Melnihr thanks for the important detail! Cheers

[@pithyginger6371]

I’ve removed the forks and grind BDT style into my 51mm portafilter. Pretty good results so far

[@bassond87]

I see that Morning Coffee machine in the background and am excited for what is to come

[@chriscollins0n]

James: "Can you verb 'bellow'?!" Me: Can you verb 'verb'?????

[@chaosite2]

Yes, in English every noun can be verbed.

[@martyhopkirk6826]

@@chaosite2 No. No it can't.

[@zedorda1337]

@@chaosite2 You mean in Engrish.

[@lucasseuren4180]

I am a linguist and I approve this verbing :P

[@SeamusMcFlurry]

Can you verb the verb 'verb?

[@chton]

Aah, time to take a big sip of this coffee, safe from any temptations of new coffee equipment, and click the new James Hoffmann video notification

[@cryx4]

Mistakes were made

[@nobeliefisok9174]

I have a DF64 I have been using for four months now. I do not have the static mess you do. Not remotely. I also don't remove the cap like you do, l lift the entire bellows, and found this to be better. For pourover coffee, on my machine I am getting excellent results. That and the low mess, I am completely satisfied.

[@trev_mcnaughton]

Wow, I just got the 2nd gen of the DF64 and it's like the company watched this video and took the advice.. so far it seems like a lot has improved line for line from this video. I'm excited to give it a try... just wish it had of arrived yesterday when I had the day to give it some attention before work 🙂

[@jean-frustre8594]

Hey ! How do you like after couple week ? Did you get de df64P version ?

[@trev_mcnaughton]

@@jean-frustre8594 no, just the regular df64 gen 2. I really like it. I think it's pretty consistent and handles fines really well. I'm also finding it to be a lot better using RDT even with the plasma generator function..as it gives a slower/better extraction like James' newer video covers. I did have to replace the power button already tho, and noticed a few other people mentioning they had to as well.. so troublesome switch is easily replaced with a big chonker switch.. otherwise it's been delightful using it.

[@jean-frustre8594]

@@trev_mcnaughton awesome ! At least its fix now :) Thank you very much for your respond ! Enjoy your coffe !

[@trev_mcnaughton]

@@jean-frustre8594 no problem!

[@MarkEichin]

"Can you verb bellow?" If you can verb bripe, I'm sure you can...

[@davidmarshall2399]

Drinking game: take a shot every time James said Bripe during that video

[@ant1.v]

Love mine, and for half of the price of the Niche here in Canada, was a no brainer for me. Workflow is enjoyable on my end, not much static on my end and all I use is light/medium with lots of honey and natural. All in all, a really good machine for the price

[@BradleySpahn]

I’d wait to add the honey until after grinding 🙃

[@itsaflyboything]

where did you get it from in Canada? I don't mind buying it from the states or ali, but in country would be nice

[@ant1.v]

@@BradleySpahn haha you know what I meant!

[@ant1.v]

@@itsaflyboything got it from TheGluons in Singapore. Don’t know of anyone here in Canada selling them.

[@Frank-i-e]

It’s funny, 2 years later it seems like Turin just changed pretty much EVERYTHING you mentioned in the Gen 2. lol go Hoffmann!

[@tung_tr]

This is the review I've been waiting for!! I do really love the aesthetic of Niche Zero but here in Vietnam the DF64 is half the price, for that level of output quality (UX aside) it's kinda no brainer. I'm getting one, thank you James, excellent content as always.

[@riadyl3311]

God bless whoever manufactures this machine

[@ivyhe7234]

Even in Canada it's almost only half of the price due to custom and shipping fees...

[@johnvuela1211]

Hi Trinh, how has been your experience with it so far? Thank you.

[@tung_tr]

@@johnvuela1211 I'm happy with it so far. There are 2 things that bother me a bit but I get used to it now: sometime the last bean will not get through the burr, it keep bouncing on the burr :D the other thing is the static (which James mentioned here) but can be reduced with a spray of water. But it's over a year, now there are new grinder with better performance (as I saw the reviews) and even cheaper than this. So you might want to take a look

[@johnvuela1211]

@@tung_tr thank you very much! Which ones are the ones you mean are currently more interesting? O would appreciate your advice. Thank you!

[@ConorMurphy1]

Great review James! Every problem you note seems to have been resolved with the upgraded models, the d64p and d64E. Always good to see a company address concerns that come with user feedback. I recently received a d64e and have none of the issues mentioned. IMO the biggest issue for me was purely aesthetic. The original design was described by one person as looking like "a robot begging for nickels"...

[@michaelbrathwaite7019]

Are you in the UK? If so, where did you buy it? Thanks

[@cringeginge7663]

It really does look like a robot begging for nickels

[@bcc5701]

@@cringeginge7663yeah it’s like a poor robot

[@rafaellewis1263]

That just makes me want to get a yellow version and put googly eyes on it.

[@jean-frustre8594]

How do you like it ?! Iam interrested to buy it too ! Thx :)

[@TheLeontheking]

Info for german audience: Grinder is now also sold as "Probarista"

[@luvinfunvan]

"as a reviewer you should understand where my priorities sit" - This is one of the reasons why you are one of the best product reviewers on KZbin regardless of the product category.

[@tonydesanto3238]

Completely agree. He helps one understand where he’s coming from and what his priorities are…recognizing that others’ priorities may differ. I really like the transparency and maturity in his reviews that brings.

[@chiueugene]

Proud owner of DF64 here, we managed to get it for less than half the price of a Niche Zero, so despite how I agree very much with James on the issues and experiences from DF64, I can't really complain for the quality/price of what we have been getting from this grinder. I think the best analogy to sum up these 2 grinders would be Niche Zero - Apple iPhone DF64 - Android phones

[@mitchellsteindler]

Except Android has actually advantages other than just price

[@ed4008]

Seems like james had an older version of the df64 the dial has been upgraded and the declumper has also been upgraded by the manufacturer from what was shown in this video … I like the df64 it’s a well priced great little single dose grinder and I have zero complaints it has worked very well and produced some wonderful coffee for me so far

[@darkmann12]

Are you able to verify that this is with the base df64 and not the df64e or df64p? Thanks

[@mjod]

Okay, but where do I get that FRESH T-shirt!?

[@SWatchik]

I need one..

[@khklavs]

It's already sold out.

[@joaopcoutinho]

That's what everyone wants to know

[@jameshoffmann]

Coming soon

[@PanSangex]

@@jameshoffmann worldwide shipping please senpai

[@brandony8691]

I, like many others, was considering the Niche but ultimately opted for the DF64 due to supply constraints (as well as the added costs of importing the Niche to the US). I ordered mine through Espresso Outlet and upgraded several features, most importantly the burrs to SSP high uniformity. Altogether I paid about $625, which was still a bit cheaper than the Niche after taxes and such. What I've liked: +Grind size flexibility: With the SSP burr set, I've had no problems with dialing in everything from Turkish fine to borderline cowboy coffee. +Great tasting coffee: As mentioned, these are flat burrs and with the SSP upgrade, I find what everyone else says to be true about having great clarity with my coffee now. I can now easily pick out the tasting notes on the specialty coffees I buy (or sometimes I also can tell when the tasting notes are perhaps off now). +Decent workflow: I found that with a few upgrades and modifications, this really doesn't make too much of a mess and generally allows me to turn out good coffee fairly quickly. What I've not liked: -Bizarre declumper: the new declumpers that come on version 4 of the DF4 are improved, but still baffling. It actually now comes with two layers of plastics that have different shapes. These end up bottlenecking the machine a bit, which results in more retention that should be the case. You can modify this by taking off the top and unscrewing the access point to the declumper, and taking at least one of these plastic pieces out. I found that retaining one of these pieces declumps alright but also doesn't cause a bottleneck. -Popcorning: I didn't opt for the optional anti-popcorning device that the distributor offered to install, and I slightly regret it. I normally keep the bellows on while grinding, which means this is a non-issue most of the time. However, if I lift the bellows off while grinding, look out! You have grinds and partial beans flying everywhere! -Fineness (or lack thereof) of the grind settings: Because this is a multi-purpose grinder, the grind settings are very wide, which can make dialing in the right espresso grind a bit tricky sometimes. On this machine that has 90 grind steps, adjusting from say 12 to 11 can cause a massive difference in how long it takes to pull an espresso shot. I keep pretty detailed notes on my phone of the grind settings I use for different beans and I've gotten a process down for quickly diagnosing whether to grind finer or coarser when trying new beans. I quite enjoy the process, but I can see others frustrated and annoyed by it. Overall: I really like the coffee that this grinder helps produce, and purely from a taste perspective, I am happy with my decision. From a workflow perspective, it's not bad, but can be a bit fussy with dialing in grind settings with new beans. Probably the only gripe I really have though, is how much popcorning goes on with this thing. EDIT: also, I completely agree with you. I think this is the perfect machine for those who like to tinker. It has a high ceiling if you are patient and handy, but perhaps a bit more variability than the average person might like as it comes stock. With my mods, I've gotten great results!

[@kchello6533]

I got the same ver4 with 2-sheet declumper, are you suggesting to remove the outer one (with circular slits on it) to get a better flow of coffee grounds?

[@dananskidolf]

"The DF64: Niche Killer?" Everyone who bought a Niche after James' review of it and is now broke: *panic*

[@GarrettMaring]

This looks much, much worse. You're good with your Niche

[@PitufinVeloz]

@@GarrettMaring Totally agree. I'm 100% satisfied with my Niche. For me the best grinder for its money.

[@littlejackalo5326]

Anyone who bought a grinder that costs several hundred dollars (and it's made in China for about $45), deserve to be stripped of all their money. Especially if they had to save up for it. People that buy things that cost 5-10x more than they should, and have to save up for it, are the most irresponsible people on earth. $700 for the niche, and $575 for this one (which are made in China), is absolutely disgusting. It's laughable that coffee tools would spend SEVEN. HUNDRED. DOLLARS on the Niche grinder that it's made in China for about 8% of that. The 64 is almost just as bad, for $550/400£. Whenever you can "buy it on Alibaba," and that mean one of two things. Either you are getting junk, and you should be paying junk prices. Or it can also mean that you're getting something half way decent, and it should cost somewhere between 20-30% as much as a comparable one made in the UK, EU, or US. The 64 and the niche fall into the latter category.

[@PitufinVeloz]

@@littlejackalo5326 By the time I bought the Niche there was nothing comparable (single does grinder with almost no retention). The only similar in concept I found at that time was a Italian grinder (if I remember correctly) which price tag was over 3000€. I'm also no advocate of buying things made in China but that battle I lost long time ago as almost everything is made in China. At least in the case of the Niche its design and development is European, and this reflects still in its build quality and foremost its functionality. And yes, it might be cheaper to produce in China, but production is only one part of the cost of a product and generally the more units you produce the cheaper the production price. The other factors are design and development among others, those costs are much higher and have to also be reflected in the price of each unit. What I mean is, its not as simple to say the unit costs 45$ to produce and the rest is rip-off...

[@Kweesh]

@@littlejackalo5326 Sauce?

[@lubenzz]

Please do a long term review of the Decent and maybe the de1xxl.

[@jimc12]

James is like the David Attenborough of coffee. 🤣

[@ivab6940]

Spot on 😂😂😂

[@anarchytect1469]

Imagine him guiding us through a journey to a roaster in the middle of any coffee producing region

[@proactive_studio]

I’ve been thinking the same thing!

[@rozen10]

Brilliant,

[@martinkoorosenmejer9044]

I bought a D64 a couple of months ago after considering the Niche, Wilfa and a number of Eureka models. I’ve moved to making mainly filter coffee in the last year but wanted a grinder that could do espresso well because my preferences could change again. Since I live in Germany, the Niche has just got too expensive so that was quickly out of the question. I was seriously considering a Specialita but the grind adjustment doesn’t seem suitable for switching between filter and espresso (and it wasn’t designed for single-dosing which has been addressed since then). The Wilfa was sold out for months and I felt it might not be great for espresso. Then the D64 came around. I was attracted to the 64 mm burrs and easy grind adjustment. I liked the idea of knowing that the cup quality is good and can be upgraded with better burrs. I was very unsure about the looks. The experience with the D64 has been mainly good. The overall build quality is good in my opinion but I agree with James’ point on the bellows. I have good experiences with both filter and espresso making and changing between the two is very easy. I’m probably not as experienced in tasting as many here but my coffee tastes significantly better than with my previous Ascaso S1. The grind adjustment is great and the retention is usually about 0.1 gram (what I put in, what comes out). The static is a big issue as the video also shows but can be solved with RDT and I use an Acaia dosing cup that I hold close to the outlet (not sure if that’s the right term). This works well but isn’t super convenient. The looks - I don’t think I’ll ever get to love the looks but I do think it looks better in real life than on pics/video. The thing is I don’t love the looks of the Niche or the Wilfa either (if just the Lagom was cheaper or the ODE was better for espresso 😀). I quickly took the ugly Pro Barista sticker off the front and I don’t like the PB logo on the lid. The dial design isn’t pretty - maybe there’ll be a way to change it one day. Overall, I’m happy with my purchase but it comes with some compromises.

[@BensCoffeeRants]

DF64 with SSP espresso or multipurpose unimodal burrs is a great upgrade for filter coffee. If you're doing mostly filter, I'd go with Unimodals, if you're doing a bit of both or mostly espresso, I'd say espresso burrs.

[@mccannger]

I've had my Solo for a year now and buying in making the decision to buy it, James' video was very helpful. Thanks so much. I can relate to many of James' frustrations on the workflow side. Apart from that, I think it's great! Certainly for the price. I have had grinders up to £1300 in the past and I think I'm getting coffee that's as good out of this ... but then I've changed my workflow a lot as well as upgrading to a rotary pump machine too since then. Coffee ... such a simple thing yet with so many hidden depths ... we're always chasing that percent or two additional in the cup! Love it. Upgradeitis has me in its grip once more though, so have ordered a set of SSP Multipurpose burrs for my Solo. Think this will be me set for at least the next 12 months :) Happy brewing all! ☕

[@mroctarine]

James mentioning 3d printing and I'm now looking forward to him reviewing all the coffee stuff on Thingiverse. So far I've made a V60 filter holder, bag clip with screw top for beans and I'm eyeing up a dosing funnel.

[@sultanalshammary6782]

what I've gathered fram james' videos is that the perfect grinder doesn't exist.

[@brucetaylor7095]

If you mainly use the machine for espresso, there is no chaff mess. Also, my machine came with silicon grips for the bottom two prongs of the portafilter/doser holder, so you may have missed those when unpacking your machine? The bottom grips hold the portafilter and the dosing cup very well. I don't see any clumping with my machine. Love it!

[@benjaminarbez7522]

That Drink Morning capsule machine in the back, Nice! Looking forward to the review

[@EugeneHo]

Looking for the review of that Machine!

[@THEdavehogue]

Full disclosure of my personal bias before my nitpick of the nitpicking: > I have one of these on order (mostly due to the staggering challenge of trying to procure a NZ). For me, a less popular grinder vastly improves the buying process, since there's not a crazy supply/demand imbalance (of course that will likely change after this video -- RIP all y'all that want one now and are gonna have a hell of a time ordering) > I prefer the minimalist/industrial aesthetic of the DF64 over the somewhat bubbly look of the NZ. ---- Now on to my review of James's review: > Maybe falls under the "modding" umbrella, but I'll likely just remove the declumper altogether and just manually declump as I transfer the grounds to wherever they're brewing. Declumping is a pretty standard part of most espresso prep anyway, even with a grinder like the Niche. > Grind size range: If it's an espresso-focused grinder and can still grind for filter, sounds like it's doing exactly what it's designed for. In fact, if you've got what feels like a very large adjustment range on the outer wheel, but the actual grind size range is small, precise adjustments will be much easier to make with this grinder. Press the bellows a bunch of times: TONS of people (most of r/espresso and other similar groups) use a kind of aftermarket bellows for the Niche. I'd much rather have the bellows built into the grinder rather than have to have another random bit floating around my workspace. > Work out the static thing: ok so we just pretending the Niche doesn't come with a spritz bottle? Both grinders have static issues. I feel like James missed the detail here that the distance from spout to dosing cup is 2-3x longer on the DF64. I think that's a minor design flaw if I'm honest. NZ wins here. > Scripty 90's font: fair, *the real crime is that font* -- Probably again considered modding but I'll likely remove that decal and likely do some etching on the top of the adjustment dial. > Power button: I'd make the counterpoint that hiding the power button neatly below the dosing cup (but certainly not inconvenient to reach) is an aesthetic choice up for debate. Is it a little easier to reach for a power switch on the side? Maybe. Is the power switch on the side a little ugly? Maybe. Personal preference here IMO. UX is not gonna be vastly different. _whew_ ok. that was a lot. Sorry for those who made it this far into this novel of a comment.

[@hmoose1357]

I'm getting on fine with mine. Niche wasn't available when I needed a new grinder. Yes it can be improved but I don't mind the workflow and have been getting good tasting coffee with it.

[@LordHosenscheisser]

the capsule machine in the back gave me goosebumps … I am looking forward to see what he has got in his mind with those

[@joedavey84]

Hey James any plans on a review of the Baratza Vario? Seems to be in the same range price-wise, flat ceramic burrs, etc. Would love to see it. As usual love the channel and the content!

[@BensCoffeeRants]

Baratza vario is good, I've had one for 10+ years. It's got 10mm smaller burrs though, so grind quality should be better from this thing. Baratza grinders have been known to have some reliability issues, although support is good and parts for repairs are relatively cheap. This one is newer so haven't heard much about long term reliability but the motor is supposed to be pretty hardcore and seems like a solidly built grinder.

[@travelshootexplore6952]

Had this grinder for a month. Upgraded from my stock Breville Barista Express Grinder. I love it. Yea it has some design flaws but for the money, its performance is second to none. True I probably won't be keeping it for a long time but the money I saved will be spent in the future for a much better grinder than for example a niche.

[@ben3561]

Just came here to say I love the channel and also: "Is that a Nespresso machine, right hand in the background on the countertop???"

[@Grogg22]

Hi James - Thank you for the link to Espresso Outlet. At the date of this comment I was able to pre-order the DF64 v4 for $440 (USD). That enabled me to add several options and accessories I otherwise could not.

[@toxicalmas]

And today's video is sponsored by Monotype. James talking about fonts and using the term "Sans Serif". I am mesmerised.

[@DancingSpacePotato]

What I love about having my coffee while I watch is how easily I get pulled into the video then I take a sip and I’m whacked by something I never noticed about a coffee I’ve been buying and drinking for months. Trying not to think about what I’m drinking is hard and the most interesting coffee videos on KZbin make for the perfect distraction to pull me out of the cup so new things can leap out

[@gunayorbay]

I recently moved to flat burrs for espresso and to me there is no going back to conical, charming or not.

[@arsanzic2161]

It is absolutely awesome to see a person speak with so much experience, and yet so openly and honestly.

[@vespresso1]

My favorite quote from the review. "I want to enjoy making my coffee as much as I enjoy drinking my coffee".

[@redleg1013]

Last time I was this early Juan Valdez was still hand picking coffee beans.

[@fionahepburn4800]

I have been using this since april.... You definitely need to use the rubber fork covers, that will stop the movement of the portafilter/cup. I love the coffee it makes, I only make filter/pour over (with the occasional cold brew) which has made some delicious cups of coffee. It has been smooth, well balanced and fruity.... It feels well extracted and have enjoyed playing with ratios and timings for my liking and had great results. There are some quirks/lessons to be learn when using it, in the morning when grinding I weigh, add a couple of drops of water then put it in and turn the machine on. This is usually when prepping for my day/going to work so when it is finishing the last grind give it a gentle pump on the bellows 3/4 times and the rest comes out. I am looking at some mods for the pop corning but have not had much of an issue with this. I like the look but it is tucked out of the way behind my coffee machine, a wrap would look awesome. The portafilter I hated at first but have gotten used to it, I did buy a standard metal one of ebay but this didnt fit- still looking for something that will fit. There is a knack to screwing the burrs back- push the top burr holder all the way down gently then screw, otherwise you are turning the ring forever. Ultimately (without tasting the niche) I was looking for a grinder and the niche was the one I was after but it has out exclusified (not a word I know) so i was impatient and bought the DF64/solo. I am happy with the results and will probably keep it as long as I can. I will be buying an espresso machine in the future so this may change but for now I love it.

[@siangfattchan9434]

someone i know actually destroyed the threadline indefinitely and the grinder is not functioning as it should be anymore

[@kiwimig123]

I've had the DF64 for a couple of months now. I've been wanting to buy a Niche for awhile but they never seem to be available so I gave up and tried this one out. I came from a Ceado E5 and it drove me nuts that I had to purge so much coffee day in and day out. I wanted a grinder that had very little retention and this gave it to me. The bellows is not elegant but does not wreak havoc on my workflow. Just a few presses and you're done. The dial is indeed ugly but I don't go around admiring the font or design once I've dialed it in. Any proper version 2 can solve that cosmetic issue. I like the dosing cup because it's clear. If you place the silicon sleeves of the fork at bottom "tines", then it will stay in place. The power button location is indeed annoying but at least it has an automatic stop function after 45 seconds. Bottom line, this grinder makes good coffee, it's very affordable and best of all, is AVAILABLE. It's hard to admire a beautiful grinder like Niche if you can't buy it.

[@chrisjs6123]

I can’t imagine buying one of these over a Eureka Specialita. That thing is so beautifully built and makes great espresso. Niche in Australia is a stupid price. Eureka seems a much better company.

[@Sn0wman5]

And Eureka is bringing a single dosing hopper

[@LucasFernandes-sr8gc]

I was able to buy a brand new DF64 for $460 all in from Alibaba. Granted, it's pretty ugly. Abhorrent, really. A eureka specialita is at least 1.5x the price. This grinder has 64mm flat burrs and makes REALLY nice espresso. It punches well above its price point. For comparison, the niche is $700 USD in the states for a smaller, conical burr set and no SSP compatibility. I think James's review is pretty spot-on. Yeah, it's ugly. No question. But if your main concern is value in terms of what's in the cup, this thing is the jackpot.

[@zilinc]

1790AUD vs 500GBP

[@chrissymostuy]

The Eureka Mignon Notte is only $329 USD and is identical to the Specialita minus the sound deadening...it’s an absolute steal.

[@LucasFernandes-sr8gc]

@@chrissymostuy I definitely can't argue with that price point! I suppose my only counter point is for ~$450USD (depending on seller) you get a 64mm burr set and a single dosing grinder right out of the box with the DF64. I think that step up is worth it for me.

[@pejolll]

The level of fussiness in Jame's reviews is extraordinary, that's why I love this channel a lot. (>.

[@dollhausenx]

A couple days ago I had a Niche in the cart and I decided that I found the whole process so annoying that I backspaced out. Then I saw the fancy-fancy shootout and decided that the Lagom P-64 was the ticket. I agree that I like the design of the Niche, but would prefer to just buy a grinder without the unpleasant experience. Plus, flat burrs.

[@stevewilcox6375]

"Give me the grams!" James bellowed. Yes it's a verb.

[@rrcaniglia]

I am not a coffee aficionado, but I love watching your videos. Your style. Your way of speaking, so precise in articulation. Your insights. Brilliant, as you Brits love to say. So, I was forced to smile when, in this video, you challenged yourself on making a verb out of ‘bellows’ and then talked of “popcorning”. No criticism. Just made me smile.

[@imuha8]

there is something appealing on watching this man talking

[@BarryTrike]

First person to combine caffeine and ASMR.

[@dnosal]

I have DF64 also for few months. To fix clumping issue remove one of those 2 gaskets glued together. I least I had that issue. I removed one gasked and it just works flawless now. Also to get that little cup sturdier, move rubber fits on fork to lower one. Those aren't even hacks, just repairing wrong assembly for me.

[@AndyZE123]

Every time something is called the killer, I know that it won't be. Does anyone remember the iPod killer, the Zune!? What happened to that? Great vid as usual James. Thank you.

[@kevinj9059]

I enjoyed James saying "thwacker" I don't know why, but it made me grin

[@toasterboy708]

Kinky...

[@jonathanfong3033]

Thé last couple of videos can just be called James being very cross.

[@geoffsemon7411]

I've had the DF64 for a couple of weeks and so far, it's excellent. I'm not having any issues with the mess from static electricity so I think the may have improved this. Retention is vey low being less than 0.1gr and is normally less than 0.04gr. Just needs a coupkle of puffs and it's good. The grind is very even with no clumping and is a great match for my '92 La Pavoni Professional. Here in Australia a Niche Zero costs around $1800aud and a DF64 from BPlus was $740aud including shipping which took about a week

[@BensCoffeeRants]

I don't think many (or any?) people got as bad static as they show in this video. I did find the plastic dosing cup gave some pretty bad static on ANOTHER grinder I tried to use it with, it seemed to work fine with the DF64 but this other grinder just didn't like the plastic cup. If I tried dosing direct into the portafilter or a metal dosing cup instead of plastic it was much better.

[@damoncook3339]

Ha, I just did a search for 'floored cheaper grinder' thinking 'floored' was some new coffee nerdery I needed to learn. I came here from the Blister Crafted podcast - Coffee Part 2 where an earnest conversation is being had between an expert and a tyro on how to get the best set up across both espresso and pour-over. Worth a listen. The DF64 is given some mention along the way.

[@pdpotman420]

"Ya ya ya , there's a little snobbery here" could be the tag line for the channel

[@IMAWriterRobJ]

James Hoffman: "Fair to a fault." As always, a terrific, entertaining review.

[@HappyNBoy]

This is the grinder I see on your channel that I think I'd be interested in buying the most. Looks the most like something I'd have on my countertop.

[@paradise_valley]

Mate are you his long lost brother? 😅

[@HappyNBoy]

@@paradise_valley nah, we Hoffmann's (two fs, two ns) are more numerous than you'd think. But James and I do have strangely similar head shapes.

[@MaakBow]

I don't get why people think this is ugly...the niche is ugly.

[@paradise_valley]

@@MaakBow nah it's the small things - it could've gone minimalistic like a Fellow Ode instead of switch between a ugly script in italics for numbers and then the serif fonts carried around the rest of the machine. Some people get snobby over plastic grounds containers, the button placement and numerous inconsequential aesthetic inconsistencies. No matter - opinions vary but sometimes these affect the functionality, like the cheap housing etc etc. Not sure exactly here in this case though whether you really are getting what you pay for, that's up to you to decide.

[@HappyNBoy]

@@paradise_valley I do actually have to agree with the point about the inconsistent typefaces, that is kinda gross. I think the general look of this grinder, as a motor, burrs, and some spouts in a neat little cylinder looks pretty cool to me.

[@kirstyloschiavo6274]

Finally! Yay Thankyou. Ok. So my coffee bin fits perfectly fine, it is tight. You do get a second pair of rubber sleeves you can put them on the bottom set of prongs if you need a tighter fit. I have a 51mm pf so that’s not even something I put on the prongs, only the basket. I tried a spritz of water in mine and all it did was choke it up. I don’t have any major issues with mess, only it blowing all over the counter when using the bellows. I remedied this by holding the dose cup up higher, over the spout. I have a La Pavoni Stradivari which requires a finer grind than pump driven machines and I have my DF64 around number 11 and extracting very well at that, so I don’t understand why you have yours at 5 and running out of adjustment? The button placement is weird sure but I don’t have a problem with it. I think it’s aesthetically pretty pleasing compared to a lot of other grinders. The lid is awkward to get on and off the wobbly bellows, so I just take the bellows off to put the coffee in, it’s easier. Here in Australia the niche is closer to $1,800 and unobtanium. I bought my DF64 with postage for $680. There just isn’t $1400 worth of ‘better’ in the Niche. There just isn’t a comparison. I know price isn’t everything and there’s no point buying something cheap if it sucks, but it doesn’t. I don’t find the workflow to be difficult or cumbersome. I have a manual lever machine so I’m at the outset all up for the process. The closer relative of this grinder visually is the Lagom and even that is $1300 in Australia. So really, in my opinion, this grinder wins for the bang for buck aspect. Literally the only decent single dose grinder at its price point. So I think the only niggles you had came down to tiny things, variable experience (like the dose cup being loose and I’ve watched other you tubers get a very firm hold with their pf’s) and then just personal preference as to workflow, and that personal preference can only ever suit the individual. So overall I think a great result for this grinder and Thankyou again for reviewing it :-)

[@brynybach7741]

I bought one of these Solo's because I couldn't get a Niche no matter how I tried. The Solo is also a hundred pounds cheaper than the Niche in the UK which can buy me a lot of coffee beans. I have to say I have been totally delighted with it. You need to check James, that the rubber grips on the dosing cup holding tines are actually on the bottom ones. They can be easily swapped over and this will make all the difference.

[@andreavon3551]

Once again James Hoffmann puts on a great video. I have the Niche and find it a pleasure to use, I had a Mazzer flat burrs and honestly the Niche is simply better. I don’t really care about flat or conical burrs, I only care about how my coffees taste.

[@BradleySpahn]

What Mazer did you have?

[@andreavon3551]

@@BradleySpahn Mazzer Mini, 58 mm burrs

[@lk285]

Was looking this up literally 2 hours before this video dropped. Thank you!

[@reedcole5780]

James is very responsive to the algorithms.

[@Max-wl5ll]

I was looking it up LITERALLY yesterday, wondering why it doesn't have a lot of coverage. Thanks James.

[@eoingrenham]

Worth noting that the price of the Niche is now more expensive for anyone in Europe due to custom charges. The Niche is now closer to €750. I decided to keep my Super Jolly and spend €100 euro on the single dosing upgrade from Daniel Wong. So far I'm really happy. If anyone else is in the same boat and is considering upgrading their grinder just for single dosing functionality, it's definitely worth considering.

[@jcsibal]

I have the DF64 mostly because I couldn’t buy the Niche it’s very difficult to purchase and the few outlets that had it scalped the prices up ( almost double the DF64) The DF64 is great value, seems like its built like a tank, and to me, allows very good, coffee with all the nuances. Maybe someday I’d be curious to try something with a better overall operating experience but for now, it’s comparable in function to the Niche at a much better value, and I was able to buy it in a day.

[@TheDennzio]

The truth is the Niche is cheaper and it's readily available

[@oakraptor]

@@TheDennzio The niche is over double the price of the D64 in Australia

[@sven5666]

​@@TheDennziothe Niche is at least 650€

[@eunhyuekpark6159]

I'm pretty sure the sticker for the dialing gauge was probably left over parts for an electric power controller......I see that text on old electric parts all the time XD.

[@risingtoneofthemojo]

When James mentioned the font all I could think of was the 'Papyrus' SNL skit 🤣🤣🤣

[@physh]

Adding a good quality funnel allowed me to grind straight into the portafilter. Same with most grinders, really... The more you direct the grounds, the less mess.

[@makeme.coffee]

Agree 💯

[@SoemarkoRidwan]

This just jump on top of my list once my 8+ year old eureka mignon eventually dies. It cost less than a third of Niche Zero where I am. I can easily add the SSP burr into the budget right of the bat.

[@onionring1531]

Ah yes I can see how such a distasteful *1942* font could negatively impact the coffee making process *slurps cheap instant coffee*

[@Toschez]

It’s Brush Script, made in 1942 though. But I agree it’s totally devaluing.

[@RedLtdGuitar]

😂

[@SimplyJustRed]

After binging through a lot of your material, James, I have to admit that there's no more perfect quote of you I found than: "Can you verb 'to bellow'?" ❤️

[@mommachupacabra]

If I'm going to spend $500 on a grinder, I expect it to work without hacks or doodads, and certainly not to leave chaff all over the housing. :) (Got my Barista grinder at a thrift shop for $5, needed cleaning, its coarsest setting is too fine for French Press but I don't do that style at home. Does perfectly fine in drip through espresso style.)

[@LucasFernandes-sr8gc]

Counter point: $500 is diabolically cheap for an automatic, 64mm flat burr grinder. In fact, it's unheard of, and I don't think anything else even approaches that price point in the US. The Niche costs $700 here. $500 is a lot of money in a vacuum, but it's not a lot at all for what the DF64 offers. No doubt, it's ugly, and it's capable of quite a mess. But $500 for a single dose, no retention, 64mm flat burr electric grinder with SSP compatibility? That's easily $1,000 worth of grinder features. The compromise is the appearance. And while James has his issues with the bellows, I've owned this grinder for about a month and I can't say I have the same issues. I don't think there is "re-grinding." The bellows just expel the remaining coffee grounds, much of which are going to be fines. The coffee flavor you get at any given grind setting is consistent and repeatable.

[@narongdetuk145]

The df64 that I get have 4 rubber 2 on the grinder 2 in a little plastic bag. I don’t get the static electricity issue.(Thailand) The plastic cup few cheap. But most part I do the filter so I get the stainless cup that fit the holder. For the power button, it help me fit it both left or right side of the counter. It quit cheap compare to niche zero. 38,000 thb. for niche zero. 12,900 thb. for df64. Agree with the messy.

[@Rock-Steady1888]

Having bought the 64mm keber titanium burrs from Bella Barista for my Solo/G itoa/DF64 when they first arrived in stock very recently, this video actually encouraged me to stop procrastinating and actually fit them, and I have to say, what a bloody difference it's made to this grinder, I have a much better espresso range now, and 0 on the dial is actually 0 with the burrs as well, anything past zero and your hear them chirp slightly, yesterday and today I've been using the Square Mile Bookkisa beans, at setting 14, I'd say it ground in easily under 20 seconds, 18g grinds, in 36g liquid out in roughly 30 seconds, tasted great, no noticeable spurting or puck flaws, so a big improvement, especially when paired with the popcorning Funnel I had made by a friend, it's turned an unloved grinder into something I've now been enjoying using as much as my Niche the past 2 days, a better clump crusher is absolutely essential for the Solo/G iota/DF64 as well imo.

[@nix4644]

I've said this to my wife and I'll say it to you. You coffee snobs are hilarious in your devotion. Update: Divorce is pending...

[@Dartania]

May your next wife like high tea! 😈

[@bobgruner]

Thank you for this. I have a question for you if you have time to answer. I purchased a Baratza Sette 5-6 years ago that I mostly use for filter coffee, some espresso. It's fine; I've been able to make it work for me, but the grind consistency is poor - it's obvious that the it producing a lot of fines. That's probably not a huge issue because I tend to grind pretty fine anyway. My question is, what grinder would you buy today if you could have only one for filter and espresso and price was not an object? I know I could go back and re-watch all your grinder reviews and try and figure this out, but you're so damn even-handed that it's hard to come to a conclusion. Thanks again.

[@manuelreilander3647]

They recently introduced V2 and moved the Power Button to the side ;-) Would love to hear your thoughts!

[@ThinkBeyondTheBox]

late to the party but I actually prefer the button out front. For those of us with a smaller kitchen, having the button on the side limits where you can place the grinder.

[@charleslee1308]

I just received a unit last week am happy to report that they've fixed the biggest issue: the numbers are now in standard sans-serif font, the script is gone.

[@thiennguyen9747]

need help, i want to ask where you order it from, there is a site popular on google and i am not sure if its legit, 385 before shipping! i am so torn please help

[@geofftech]

I got a DF64 back on August to compare against my NZ. And I gotta say that I prefer the DF64 over the NZ. My DF64 has much less static spray than the NZ and I don’t have to RDT.

[@Alice_Walker]

I gave my grinder away on the weekend because I accidentally gave up coffee when I started drinking matcha 18 months ago but I still love listening to James! 💜

[@TheHiTechHippie]

Would love to see this vs nich vs Sette 270wi as a best filter and espresso grinder comparison

[@BradleySpahn]

Ya! Not enough Baratza content on this channel.

[@huFfproPane]

As the sette is quite often a write off within 2 years due to plastic parts... I doubt it will ever be reviewed

[@TheHiTechHippie]

@@huFfproPane I'm more so looking at finding one grinder as a pour over and espresso solution. Where i'm not breaking the bank, getting both the ability to grid coarse enough for pour over and fine enough for good espresso

[@faidzjalil]

In my area, I can get the DF64 with factory fitted italian titanium coated burr for a tad less than £300...a no brainer to get one?

[@DGooseYT]

its about £260 in Indonesia with other brand name, and it comes with Titanium burr Niche Zero is about £790 here

[@barjee8965]

I love that you called out the font of the numbers