The Transphobia in Heartstopper S3

Heartstopper S3 was a bit heavier than previous season, including it's exploration of current transphobic rhetoric
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/ @jammidodger

[@hiyuodin]

"I'm getting so mad over a fictional scenario" Except you aren't. You're getting mad over a fictional _depiction_ of actually real scenarios that happen to trans individuals, there's a difference. You're right to be mad about it, so is everyone else who are mad about how Elle was put in that position Also the title scared the shit out of me thinking this was going to be a video calling Heartstopper out for being transphobic as a whole :'D

[@Duxvyrixukis]

❤that deserves to be pinned

[@mujiescomedy279]

Same (about the title). Until I remembered what he actually meant. And the rest of the comment is also very true

[@Nightmaremarshmellow5614]

This is so true but depressing

[@noaho.o4770]

Thanks for your comment, I was about to watch the video because I thought the same about the title, but now I won't watch it (for now) to not get spoiled heh (haven't watched S3 because I watch it with my partner and we haven't had any time to do so yet)

[@LoremIpsum-dp1li]

I was also worried about the title. You could say my... ehem... heart stopped after seeing it.

[@borealernadelwald]

To be fair, the trans bathroom issue did increase the assault of cis women.. because transphobes have assaulted more masculine looking cis women, thinking they were trans. Just let people use the toilet in peace.😭

[@sallygreenfield6991]

The ridiculousness of the bathroom complaints astounds me. I share bathrooms with trans people every day and have never been afraid or even close to assaulted. My sister was assaulted in a bathroom by other girls when she was in high school. Does my anecdotal example mean it would never happen? No, but the stats back up my experience more than the alternative. There are truly challenging questions around gendered aspects of society and where trans people fit in. I think there are honest arguments, for example, about sports teams (I know where I land, but I do understand where the other side is coming from on that). But the bathroom thing is just a non-issue.

[@nikitatavernitilitvynova]

In Italy some restaurants are so little they have one stall for all. I remember reading about a well known university in Milan wanting to add a gender neutral bathroom and most people voted against it. My mom was shocked for some reason about my response. I told her each stall is closed. There's a fucking door in front of you at the bathroom. It's not like they can see you naked peeing. And if you're just washing your hands tell me how that's controversial? I can guarantee most people in a bathroom don't have elaborate plans about assaulting others. But are rather head empty if not for their sudden urge screaming at them to go use the restroom. Edit: a really good argument I heard was that if someone is willing to assault anyone in a bathroom, the sing on a door alone isn't enough to stop them. They won't read the ladies sign and have this force field telling them not to go inside. If they're cu-cu crazy enough in their head, they'll march straight inside to hurt anyone. A sign on a door won't stop anyone. I mean terrorists and killers attack civillians all the time. Don't they realize they know and were told to not attack at a concert because it's taboo yet they still do it? It's literally the same exact thing. People aren't supposed to enter private properties but burglars do it all the time. They seriously believe people with nefarious intents won't enter the ladies bathroom if they wanted because it's for the ladies? Give me a break!

[@borealernadelwald]

@@sallygreenfield6991 Additionally women have been assaulted on the women's toilet by cis men, looking like men. If someone wants to assault another person, they won't be held back by a sign. I mean who in their right mind would go through transitioning just to mess with people in public toilets when they can easily just do it anyways? Regarding gender in other aspects of society.. I'm agender and I've never understood the concept, really. Even before I knew I was agender, it always confused me. But that was mostly about interests, mannerisms, clothing and such. There are definitely biological differences that I do acknowledge, like you mentioned in sports, but one cis man might have a big advantage over another cis man in a certain sport (height, genetic advantages in terms of muscle density or other quirks), and no one bats an eye - some are even celebrated for it. So in the end I find it a non-issue as well, personally.

[@MarielWhalley]

​@@sallygreenfield6991 dude yeah, SAers are anyone, not defined by sexuality and gender, specially in school when assault is part of bullying. Having gendered bathrooms or limited bathrooms don't decrease assault. Personally bathrooms should be single room bathrooms instead of stalls, that would actually stop any kind of harassment (maybe? Idk, the education have to change world wide too)

[@Suited_Nat]

@@nikitatavernitilitvynovahonestly, I’ve heard that Italy’s politics are pretty unwelcoming to queer folks, I heard about a case with lesbians having IVF and politicians trying to make it a law to require only one of the parents can sign the birth certificate- despite the lesbian couple being a couple?? It’s fucked up.

[@GorbyGames]

oh my god the title- i thought you were gonna say the show is transphobic i was so scared i love hearstopper if s3 was somehow transphobic i would have cried

[@echolynn13]

I don't even watch it, but I've heard great things and one of my best friends loves the show, I was so concerned when I saw the title-

[@riazmiah2327]

Ngl, if Heartstopper s3 was transphobic- I’dve cried too...

[@alyamd805]

@@riazmiah2327 Do you need Jammie to tell you it's transphobic? Or are you able to make up your own mind? Or is Jammie the oracle on what's transphobic and what isn't?

[@amaranta8650]

⁠@@alyamd805maybe they haven’t watched it and would decide not to if it were transphobic? or maybe they’re cis and would defer to the more nuanced opinion of a trans person on what is or isn’t transphobic? especially if it turned out to be like very subtle transphobia or a microagression that people might miss if it’s not something they’ve experienced. that does not mean they’re unable to form their own opinion or that they view jamie as an “oracle”

[@artheenbyrogue804]

​@@Lemmondoodles??? I don't know what you read but Alice is non-binary (uses they/she pronouns) also did auctions to make donation to Gaza. Please DON'T pirate this season considering someone already tried leaking it.

[@Emma-Maze]

It's implied that the bullying Elle faced in the past was really severe and that that is why Tao is so extremely protective to the point where he comes across as rude and possessive.

[@vaelia1203]

Yeah and the fact that his other best friend was bullied for his identity too. Tao witnessed two of the people he loves the most being treated like crap because of who they are ofc he's over being nice. It would've been weird if he wasn't.

[@elieli2893]

I mean it was mentioned in like the very first episode of the series that she's just transferred to an all-girls' school after being bullied in the school the others attended.

[@SmallIGuess]

actually he's like that over all his friends because of something he mentioned in the last episode of season two, spoiler warning real quick it's that his father died when he was younger, and he just doesnt want to be left behind at all, he's so fiercely afraid of it that he wants to keep all his friends so tightly together, similarly to his meltdown at the end of episode seven of season one. But it definitely is a factor, he does say to Nick he's not really aware of Charlie's experiences of bullying, and Elle only let him know of her experiences with Harry in episode seven as well

[@kaedynBond]

Also, Elle is the reason he grows his hair so long as Elle was getting in trouble with the dress code for growing out her hair

[@SmallIGuess]

@@kaedynBond I didn't know that actually! The more you know haha

[@KeoTheUndamaged]

Bigots: ‘Minors shouldn’t transition they are too young’ Also bigots: ‘As a minor. What is your opinion on this sensitive topic which I am blindsiding you with and tricked you in to attending’ It felt like a ‘I can’t win a debate against an adult so I’ll pick on a child’

[@itsnemosoul8398]

I don't think children can consent to permanent bodily changes. Doesn't mean I'm a bigot or against trans people. Heck, I'm part of the LGBTQIA+ community myself.

[@philippenachtergal6077]

Also transphobes: Oh my child is intersex, we have to correct that surgically immediately and never talk about it ever again.

[@philippenachtergal6077]

@@itsnemosoul8398 Correct me if I'm wrong, but transitioning as a child rarely involves surgery during childhood. Those people are also opposed to puberty blockers (when used in this context) and social transition. I can accept the wait for 18 for surgery, the rest is bollocks.

[@rosieg6989]

@@itsnemosoul8398 Being lgbt is how you are born, trans kids often know something is off as young as 3, and something is severely wrong at puberty, so pre-puberty allowing them to socially transition can really help them, at around 11 have them on puberty blockers to give them more time to mature and figure themselves out, then at 16 if they realize they aren't trans they go off the blockers and go through their biological puberty, but if they are trans they can stop and start hrt to go through the opposite puberty, and at 18 if they did the previous steps the only thing they need is bottom surgery if they desire it, but if they don't do any of the steps above ftm's will need top surgery and mtf's will need adam's apple removal, laser hair removal, voice train, and some things like shoulder width will be permanent. And of course that's if they make it to 18 because if they are not allowed to be themselves and are in an unsupported family then suicide is very common.

[@rosieg6989]

@@philippenachtergal6077 Trans kids should be allowed to medically transition in stages at appropriate ages. If they are not allowed to transition at all before 18 then there is usually are severe consequences.

[@astel3139]

My father interviewed a few people a year or two ago, all in the "music world" (singers, and all of that) and one of them was a woman who directed an orchestra. She actually agreed to do the interview, on the basis that they would only talk about music, and not about the fact that she's a woman in a man's world, because she was fed up with people never actually talking about her music, whereas other directors were never asked what it was like to be a man in a man's world, and they got to talk about their actual jobs. And I think about that a lot

[@ArturGlass.C]

Yeah that's so comment. I feel like as an interviewer you really should only bring it up if it comes up. I know plenty of artists and feminist that wants to make their positions public and really be open about what it's like or how it impacts them. But there's women who just don't, feminist or not, they don't owe people to have any specific position or to make any of them public, like trust that it will be brought up if they want to.

[@princessthyemis]

wow!!!!!!! That's so true! eye-opening!

[@jasperwisecarver]

THIS!!

[@Rmlohner]

I know Joss Whedon is a shit person, but I'm still really struck by his answering interviewers who ask why he wrote so many strong, tough female characters with "Because you still feel the need to ask that question."

[@jasperwisecarver]

@@Rmlohner YESSS!! I don't know much about him but that's EXACTLY how people should be about that question, otherwise you're only perpetuating the same exact issues we've had in the industry for so long

[@randomschoko1323]

For people who are reading comments before watching the entirety of the video: It's not about the show itself or a person involved in the show being transphobic it's about a scene in season 3 that depicts transphobia.

[@agnessofiacastrocarvalho774]

A bit clickbaity that tiltle tho right?

[@mandarinablue38]

​@@agnessofiacastrocarvalho774 yeah not sure I like it.

[@BryanLu0]

​@@agnessofiacastrocarvalho774"Depictions of"... would just make the title too long

[@topgunvinylrecord]

@@BryanLu0 long titles arent bad though and jamie has titles way longer than that. he could’ve had “transphobia shown in heartstopper” “how heartstopper handled transphobia” “transphobia depicted in heartstopper” exedra

[@geraltrivia6148]

@@agnessofiacastrocarvalho774 It's exactly how another trans KZbinr, Lily Simpson, titles their video essays about popular media involving trans people. I legit thought this must be a collaboration with Lily when I clicked on it. Being a follower of both, I'm all for it! But apparently it was more appropriative than collaborative. Hopefully, Jammi's not so starved for material that he's stealing ideas from smaller trans KZbinrs and this was a one-shot. Lily's got a cat to feed, Jammi! Be nice!

[@valeriedefarias]

Best “debate” I saw about trans people was on a French news channel. It pretty much went like this: Hoste: You are trans? Woman: Yes. Hoste: Are you happier? Woman: Yes. Transphobe: But… Hoste: Shut up! Thank you all for watching the show! See you next time! End of “debate”

[@LucyJrts]

Was a trans man in that clip, not a trans woman, and the final comment from the host was... a little more candid than "shut up" 😂 But yes... always a good watch, that clip!

[@valeriedefarias]

@@LucyJrts you’re probably right! I’m probably miss remembering! I watched it on tv a while back but the host’s response stuck with me ^^

[@riomadar]

Yes i know the clip! The transphobe said something like "but god-" (mightve been jesus? It was something religious) and the host/interviewer said "Shut it!"/ "Can it!"

[@dinosaysrawr]

I love that clip. Thanks for reminding me of it. We need to see that sort of thing more often.

[@chester1882]

BASED BASED BASED

[@404maxnotfound]

Heartstopper a good example of why we need more queer creatives invovled in media. You wouldn't typically find this type of conversation in any cishet made media.

[@aimeerivers]

the interview also got Elle really down about her art for subsequent episodes and i thought that was really powerful to portray to show the impact these types of negative experiences can cause.

[@erikperhs_]

Is that realistic though? It seems like her art can only come from a happy place, which is not very common actually. Most artists thrive when they're going through a bad time.

[@eliasneto4535]

​@@erikperhs_That is a myth based upon artist who did not trive during their lives, with their misery used to increase the value. As someone who tried to make anything creative after a bad experience, the results are not productive on the slightest.

[@defectiveshark7602]

@@erikperhs_ This is absolutely a myth, it's the romanticized image of the "tortured artist". Everyone's different and there are certainly people that can make art while miserable, but most artists do much better overall and have much more motivation when they're not horrifically depressed.

[@onettaviator5396]

​@@eliasneto4535 Me, personally, I can go either way? Some of my best work was made at my lowest. Others were made when I was happy as hell!

[@moonflight3806]

@@erikperhs_ As an artist: 1. “Thrive” would NOT be the right word lol, even if you make good art that is still the opposite of thriving 2. My art does not get better when I’m going through something bad, the vast majority of the art I’ve created was made when I was happy or at least neutral. Heck, the reason most people create art is BECAUSE it makes them happy, so in a way you often have to be in a happy place to create art consistently.

[@artheenbyrogue804]

I was watching this and I was so mad for Elle. She's one of my favourite characters and she's so lovely and didn't deserve any of this especially since the point for Elle was to talk about her art. I was so happy that Tao tried to help the best he could as a straight guy and as her boyfriend. I definitely cried when I saw this season.

[@silvermoon2281]

SAME, my heart dropped when the interviewer mentioned “wanting to consider perspectives on both sides,” and you see Elle feeling absolutely trapped. I’m SO glad they showed representation of her parents supporting her, and her very natural state of shock (followed by lovely moments with her art friends and Tao 💖).

[@artheenbyrogue804]

​@@silvermoon2281 yes me too! The parents were so sweet and I'm so glad Elle had Tao as well as her other friends who could also understand how she feels about being trans too.

[@Toby-ec7rw]

I (a trans girl) changed my name to Elle because of hearstopper I didn't change it because of hearstopper but I just couldn't find a good name until I found out about Elle and heartstoppper

[@StarryMysts]

@@Toby-ec7rw thats cool :)

[@Milo-hp9fw]

@Toby-ec7rw Elle is such a pretty name, too! You chose well :)

[@SailorDisco]

The whole time I was watching that I kept wondering if Yasmin Finney even needed to act in that scene 😬

[@SailorDisco]

Not to take away the fact that Yasmin Finney is a hugely talented actor, that scene just felt so real.

[@erinhawkins1950]

On a better note, my trans son was interviewed for Teen Vogue last spring for an article about trans Irish dancers and it was super positive. You can still find the article online.

[@whatismylifeanymore]

Omg amazing!! If you could link the article I'll definitely read it:D

[@IvyGreen-v3w]

Oh em geeeee that made me smile🥹🥹

[@helenharvey7357]

​@whatismylifeanymore a lot of time youtube will block links just to avoid scammers putting sketchy links in comment sections I looked up teen vogue Irish dancers and it was the first link off of Google the title was for Trans Irish Dancers, Hate is Against the Spirit of the Sport if you want to search it

[@sezzyridge]

That’s so neat!

[@thomaswall1079]

Omg that's amazing!! I'm Irish and Queer, where can I find it?

[@FishareFriendsNotFood972]

Ugh, yes, the amount of 'debate with me your right to exist' conversations that trans people much endure is heartbreaking

[@angelinabrown3142]

"Trans identities"...🚩🚩🚩🚩 I just love how Tao and her parents had her back. Mum was ready to throw down with that host.

[@wegotthechoccies]

When I watched the scenes of Elle's radio interview, I started getting really angry, saying 'she's literally 17! She's younger than I am, why are they doing this to her? She's a child!' And then reality hit me really hard over the head and I realised that I have been facing interviews and conversations like that since I came out at 11.

[@boingooingo3317]

Honestly yeah, the excuse of using "think of the children!" Half the time and then turning around and harassing trans kids/hindering their lives or policing harmful traditional gender roles.

[@88megagirl]

Honestly I loved that they added this scene because its especially relevant and the moment, and the way Heartstopper handles these things is incredible. Yasmin did a really good job. I wanted to hug her so badly and throw hands with the radio host.

[@MariaNordlund]

I’ve just (binge) read the comics, so pondered that this didn’t sound familiar. But it’s an added scene, heard there’s some added characters too. Have just watched a “sweetest moments “ compilation to see a bit how the graphic novels have been turned into a tv show.

[@tylerbailey9329]

I loved her in Doctor Who. I might have to check out this show.

[@javencummins1426]

​@tylerbailey9329 This is her start to acting in TV! I definitely think it's worth a watch.

[@jrlombardi5251]

​@@MariaNordlund the comics are way way shorter than the tv show, so tons of characters, moments and plots are extended, many are completely original, like almost all of the secondary plots. The tv show is an expanded version of this world let's say.

[@savannahrusso5117]

As I was watching this scene I legit felt my heart drop as the questions started turning. I had my happy goggles on and was just excited for Elle and felt like I'd been hit over the head. Like, wait, what, no. It was heartbreaking to see her face change.

[@TarsaMom-2]

Exactly!! I actually was like, WTF!!

[@i_am_humon9276]

I guess they should've called it heartdropper (☞͡͡°͜ʖ͡͡°)☞

[@AkumaNugget__]

Fr

[@Ray-hk1zm]

I knew something bad was going to happen but was expecting it to go in more of a like "invasive questions about her transition" direction, this was so crazy heartbreaking and I felt every second of it (Yasmin is SUCH A GOOD ACTOR AGHHH).

[@RayGoodspeed]

Well said Jamie. The scene was infuriating and distressing - even for this 65-year-old cis gay bloke. And "Elle" is only 16 in the programme, and was used, disappointed and crushed. I imagine Yasmin has plenty of her own experience to draw on, but still found it difficult to act in.

[@spidybat7658]

My dad sat down just before that scene and listened to it while he was on his phone. He is also cis and just a little younger than you. He had a rant to me how bad that interview was and how horrible that interviewer was.

[@SamirCCat]

I'm so glad to have this warning before I watch this episode! I'm very sensitive and live with mental illness, so I easily get upset when heavy topics, like transphobia, is brought up, and now I know what to expect of season 3! I'm not even trans, but I am deeply engaged in all LGBTQ+ people's rights, and I would've reacted badly with anxiety had I not known this interview was going the wrong way. Now I can prepare myself more and choose to watch it when I'm not struggling with my mood. Thank you, Jamie!

[@Alastor_slays66]

Please don’t call anyone “cis”, as a bisexual male I just honestly don’t like the term, just call us females or males!

[@Soken50]

@@Alastor_slays66 It's just a Latin prefix meaning "on the same side", used in opposition to "trans" which is a Latin prefix meaning "across". In the context of gender it refers to the alignment of someone's gender with their biological characteristics. "male" and "female" are terms that define biological characteristics, not gender, it is totally unhelpful when discussing trans/cis topics, trans people are also male or female, their gender just so happens to not line up with it.

[@dropinarte]

@@Alastor_slays66it’s a Latin term 😅 it’s really old and biologically accurate. Your comment comes across a bit transphobic..

[@nininoona]

The moment the interviewer said "hot topic right now" my heart dropped.

[@whatismylifeanymore]

I mean, the interviewer isn't wrong. It is a "hot topic" rn, but not in a good way.

[@izziek86]

Could you say… your heart… stopped? But yeah attempt at forcing a pun aside it was a difficult scene in an already emotional season! Literally found myself audibly sobbing a few times this season.

[@ashbridgeindustries380]

I'm not exactly a celebrity, but I have a small following on TikTok, and it's so exhausting being made to feel like an ambassador for all trans people every single day. Yes, I do post trans-focused content, but even on videos that are totally unrelated to my identity, there will be comments essentially asking me to justify my own existence, right there on the spot, in less than 200 characters. I hate that it's just a fact of life for trans people at this point. If you exist in the public gaze at all, there will always be someone trying to put you on the spot and force you to answer their questions on behalf of the entire trans community.

[@shawnbay2211]

I am haunted by a speech where some1 said that ppl do this [force somebody 2 constantly explain themselves] so marginalised groups get 2 exhausted 2 perform any meaningful political action 😨 We can’t win by playing their games. We win by undermining their structures. & that’s already extraordinarily difficult. But we can’t do any of that when we’re 2 busy feeling inclined 2 explain ourselves 2 ppl who already decided won’t listen. I guess there r genuinely ignorant ppl & I’d want 2 send pre-written responses. If they don’t wanna listen, it’s pretty satisfying removing their comments & deplatforming them.

[@elieli2893]

@@shawnbay2211 Yeah, that sounds so scary, that it would be purposefully used as a tactic. Hate that. Being trans in my country is exhausting (well, at least it's not a crime and you don't get shot for it, so yay? ;__;) - I've seen my friends struggle a lot. I myself am nonbinary, and that is not recognized in any way by most media, and especially not by the medical side of things. Getting gender affirming care here is a nightmare, they aren't there to help you, they're there to reluctantly give in after they don't manage to defeat you during multiple years of straight up discrimination and uncomfortable experiences. The moment you admit to them you're not binary, it's bye bye to the possibility of getting hormones, in the cases I've heard of. And when media talks about that whole deal, they keep bringing up weird statistics about people dropping their hormonal therapy or not "going the whole way", and treat it like it obviously means people regretted their decision. To me, those stats scream "this percentage is all the nonbinary folks that got care to the degree they were happy with". But again, those articles do not recognize the existence of anyone outside the binary. I've heard people recommend just straight up lying to the clinic about your identity to actually get the care - and that is such a huge red flag, as well as a horrifyingly dangerous thing. I just wish one of the leading doctors of one of our only gender care clinics wasn't an outspoken trans denier. That would be a start, you know? I'm personally so relieved I don't currently feel the need for hormonal therapy. Getting a mastectomy is possible privately, although it costs thousands. I'd much rather pay myself sore and get the treatment at some point, than to get bullied for years by some bigot whose job is literally to help me. Well, at least in the last election for our parliament, some of the voting poll questions answered by the politicians were about their opinion on legally recognizing the existence of a third gender, so that's nice I guess. At least I could choose who to vote for with the knowledge of their awareness and acceptance of my existence :D I really don't talk about being enby at all unless it's with people I know and trust. The whole thought exhausts me, for understandable reasons. Luckily my language has neutral pronouns, nothing gender about them, so no one has to out themselves to just get addressed with the right ones :D Then again, that does not stop people from being pricks, unfortunately :/ Sorry for the super long rant!

[@PokhrajRoy.]

I want to use “No ifs, no buts, no coconuts.” more often.

[@elizabethsommerer2164]

I need it on a t-shirt being said by a dinosaur.

[@MidnightSonnet]

It's an extremely old saying, lol. My mother and father used to say it to me when I was a kid in the 80s and 90s. Jamie probably picked it up from his parents, too, lol.

[@yettispaghetti6784]

@@MidnightSonnet My little sister picked it up from her older elementary school teachers and I picked it up from her 😂

[@MidnightSonnet]

@@yettispaghetti6784 that checks out, lol. Her teacher is probably around the same age as me.

[@ginadanca9595]

same!! I kept repeating it hahah love it

[@aeronhoare7706]

Between Alice's initial highlighting of the issue in the episode itself, and your response here, its definitely informative of a very problematic issue in media. I for one would be very apprehensive about being interviewed. It sucks for people who have to deal with this like Elle does in the show, Yasmin nailed the performance imo

[@annaf4720]

It's such a lose-lose situation the media has created for trans people. As Jamie mentioned, trans people are never invited on to just exist and talk positively about a topic, and so we lack that positive representation. They are only invited on to be one half of a debate and have to listen to someone attacking their rights, so naturally trans people have gotten wise to this and just turn down all mainstream media invites to protect themselves. So we end up with either cis allies being the only ones to speak up for trans people (not ideal), or transphobes getting to share their bigotry unchallenged with nobody there to "give the other side", so more and more bigotry gets normalised. The media have created this by insisting on "both-sidesing" trans issues "for balance" instead of just letting trans people exist and share their stories outside of the context of a debate. It normalises this idea that any time trans people are mentioned the average person can feel emboldened to just start debating things and asking about sports and toilets instead of actually taking an interest in trans people as individuals, or empathising with the challenges they face. It's dehumanising, turning them into representatives of an idea to be challenged rather than a person. Really sorry if you're trans and having to navigate this.

[@ollieoopsie]

I watched S3 with three trans friends and I am trans myself, and when we watched this scene, we got a little suspicious when the interviewer first asked about Elle’s identity in her art. By the time we got to the end of the scene, we were all yelling at the TV. I do genuinely wonder how quickly someone who isn’t trans would catch onto the direction the conversation was going.

[@rosejones8058]

Not trans and I had the most horrible sinking feeling watching this scene. Always suspicious of live media being manipulative. Yasmin Finney went through a lot, I suspect she has had input into this scene.

[@whatismylifeanymore]

Not trans myself but I am bigender, but I don't know if I would have caught that tbh, atleast from a trans perspective. Maybe as a writing perspective I would have caught that as I am a writer myself(not professional yet). I think it's important to talk about this so people who aren't trans can recognize the signs and call them out:)

[@Garsnoos]

I'm a cis woman and tbh I had a bad feeling about the interview from the start. I could quickly catch on when it was going real bad

[@LoremIpsum-dp1li]

> _I do genuinely wonder how quickly someone who isn't trans would catch onto the direction the conversation was going._ That's why it's important to have a scene like this in a show. That way, cis people will be able to recognize these kinds of situations.

[@Sophie_Cleverly]

I knew the vibes were off immediately and I could see where it was going, I was shouting as well 😆 I'm cis but watch a lot of trans creators

[@Milesmorales-spidey]

The attack and spin that you can either be trans or a feminist is crazy So many cis women are so far away from feminism I really struggle to see the link (cough cough interviewer on radio)

[@HiBuddyyyyyy]

That sort of take pisses me off so much. Trans people are included in feminism, if you are an active bigot, you are not a feminist. It seems so weird as well, so many people want to separate cis women and trans ppl (I know it’s the thing of ‘protect the poor women🥺’), even though some trans ppl are literally women and some trans ppl are affected by the same things cis women are because they are afab. It is not trans rights or women’s rights, both will benefit the other and are equally important.

[@M_M_ODonnell]

At some point anti-feminist gender essentialists decided that now that "feminism" was a word that most people had positive associations with, they could just take the word and slap it on whatever flavor of rancid patriarchy they're pushing at any given moment.

[@rosiefay7283]

Not all feminists agree on every question. It is possible to be cis and feminist and a trans ally.

[@annaf4720]

​@@rosiefay7283 I would say most cis feminists are trans allies, particularly millennials and gen Z. Modern feminism focuses on intersectionality. I'm a cis woman, but if I only cared about the oppression of cis women, I'd consider myself to be doing feminism very wrong. If you care about sexism, but ignore homophobia, transphobia, racism, etc then that feels very short sighted. If you can empathise with the way the patriarchy hurts cis women, but turn a blind eye to the way trans women are equally (and often more so) harmed by it, what kind of feminist are you? You'll notice at all the gender critical rallies you'll get the occasional young women, but most prominent "gender critical" women are around JK Rowling's age or older. Posie Parker, Julie Bindel, Helen Joyce, Maya Forstater, Kathleen Stock, Alison Bailey, Helen Staniland are all over 50 for example. Compare to younger feminists like Emma Watson who are trans inclusive because our generation's feminism has had more of a focus on intersectionality. We're also the first generation to have been exposed to positive trans representation (like Contrapoints or Jamie here) via social media, and are more likely to have lived at a time where we might have met or befriended a trans person because they haven't felt forced to hide who they are. Surveys show the people most likely to be transphobic are straight, cis, conservative men. It is absolutely not a feminist movement. The people most likely to hold positive views of trans people are lesbian and bisexual women, so when TERFs claim to be speaking for lesbians and women they are wrong there too.

[@Milesmorales-spidey]

I think it’s super easy for TERFs to hide behind doing “what is best for cis women” and to “keep the cis women safe” because they play on how hard the fight for women has been historically and how this is a step backwards. How is making a community feel safe and respected and valued in any sense, a step backward will stump me every time. I heard a debate at uni that talked about how what charities want to appeal to causes, they use women and young children because they get a better response even if the charity if for men or animals, they’ll use women and young children in their ads. What better way to instil fear and false facts than give absolute shit facts about how trans communities are hurting cis women and children the most Trans rights are human rights and in 2024 , I’m so sad that we still need to be spreading this message

[@vegan_blueberry]

I love Heartstopper💛 The show helped me realize that I'm aroace like Isaac.

[@ShiaraPhoenixfire]

I made my wife watch it because since she realized she was aroace she was wanting to see good representation and now knows why I fell in love with all Heartstopper media. This is why things like this matter to people of all ages.

[@NorsePearl]

I haven't seen the show myself, but I'm always looking for more aroace representation in media!

[@stellasdoesstuff]

​@ShiaraPhoenixfire you and your wife should also read Loveless, which is a novel by Alice Oseman (the creator of Heartstopper) which she wrote shortly after accepting her own aroace-ness. The main character is aroace and there are a bunch of aro and ace characters in the book. Alice wrote the book they would have appreciated when they were younger and still struggling with identity

[@kaseyford1490]

Congratulations for coming into your true self. Fellow Aroace here 💚💜

[@Garsnoos]

Hello from a fellow aroace ❤ I love Isaac, his journey is quite relatable and I'm so glad we get that kinda representation in media!

[@linnea929]

as a cis woman, I’d just like to say that the amount of times that getting assaulted crosses my mind when entering a gender non-specific bathroom is *EXACTLY THE SAME* as when I enter a women’s restroom. creepy people aren’t just gonna look at a sign that says women or men and decide that they aren’t gonna be creepy, they’re gonna do whatever they want wherever they want

[@Alastor_slays66]

Don’t use the word “cis” to describe yourself, just say woman and you’d be fine.

[@mossy__snail]

lmao dude it's just to indicate that she isn't trans chill

[@waffles3629]

​@@Alastor_slays66 and trans women don't need to say trans either, they can just say they are women and they'd be fine

[@Alastor_slays66]

@@waffles3629 Exactly

[@Ray-hk1zm]

@@Alastor_slays66 This is such a weird take lol. She's making a point about how transphobic cis women like to pretend they're a monolith that are universally scared of trans women in their spaces and how she (a cis woman) is pushing against that and reminding people that some cis women are allies. It's relevant that she's cis (and also cis isn't a dirty word, and neither is trans).

[@cyrus7107]

oh my god you scared me for a second 😭 but it’s wonderful to hear that such a popular show is addressing these things. we really need all the support and awareness we can get right now

[@j.apenrose7896]

I loved so many parts of season three. I'm trans, ace, and have been admitted to psychiatric care and found it helpful for bipolar. They did such a great job of representing a lot of things that never get shown, and I appreciate it so much

[@nobodishere]

heartstopper is great with Introducing the idea of trans people to cis people. I had a watchparty with some friends and the cis ones asked me and my also trans now boyfriend about the dysphoria that elle had, and it was so cool to just have them ask and like... understand!

[@totally3totally]

I'm cis and I get anxiety just listening to your description of the plot. So sorry that trans people often have to experience this in real life.

[@crashley47]

the least you can do as a cis person is to support in one way or another, anything is everything :)

[@randomschoko1323]

I liked that they included the way the media and a lot of ignorant people deal with and talk about trans people. I also think that showing the more subtle levels of transphobia and how damaging it is is apropriate considering that the character is a teenager and that the show in general has a more optimistic way of dealing with experiences of queerness etc.

[@bioluminescentlyunfolding5716]

I think you make a really important point re: the way the bathrooms issue comes up - there's this constant problem of the air in the room being sucked up by the transphobes' claims, and that means there's probably a ton of people who don't even grasp that the implications of excluding trans people is having a class of people who literally have no right to a very basic public convenience. Like, this is an issue of trying to introduce exclusion of a vulnerable minority into a public health context, and it's frustrating how transphobic rhetoric constantly leads and drives the wider conversation. I did really appreciate the way they showed the sort of media ambush that happens to people like Elle in real life. I felt for her so much, and yeah, it was terrible from a safeguarding POV.

[@thatboredaroace]

welp. after being subbed to jamie for like. two years. my egg got annihilated this morning. :)

[@theMyRadiowasTaken]

brother/sister/sibling how did it take you this long 😭 /lhj

[@CactusMuffin]

Keep going. As scary as it can be it is also very freeing and rewarding

[@thatboredaroace]

@@theMyRadiowasTaken i was always going "welll i wanna be a girl but not in a trans way" and then i realised. oh shit i mean in a trans way. so here we are.

[@witchytaedragon]

@@thatboredaroace Well congrats on figuring yourself out lol. I kind of had the same realization. I found I didn't really... understand gender all that much or how I feel about my *own* gender but I was just like eh I just find gender to be a strange in and of itself but that doesn't mean I'm trans.... I'm genderqueer lmao

[@NatalieN500]

congratulations and best wishes on your journey! Wherever being trans or nonbinary takes you and whatever transition you choose to pursue, you are valid and real regardless. You are loved, cracked egg :)

[@MCAlexisYT]

I recently learned of a Québec french idiom saying “parler à travers son chapeau” (translation: “talking through your hat”), meaning “acting like an expert on something you know nothing about”, and I think it perfectly sums up transphobia.

[@whatismylifeanymore]

LOVE seeing Canadian french being brought up as a Canadian myself lol

[@elieli2893]

"Puhua läpiä päähänsä" in Finnish, which, translated literally, means "to speak holes into one's head" 😅

[@dropinarte]

@@elieli2893finish looks so funny I love it

[@amywonderland9297]

I'm glad Heartstopper included the scene, (and I'm really glad you did this video talking about it!) but oh my god it actually shattered my heart to see Elle crying in her dad's arms. To any trans people reading this. You are loved. You are valid and I will always, always have your back. Love to all! x

[@MorningAngel]

I was at a Q&A last night with Alice Oseman, and Alice mentioned that some of the storylines in S3 really benefited from discussion and input from the actors themselves. She highlighted having discussions with Yaz about exploring trans issues. Alice didn't say so directly, but I'm guessing this plot was probably the outcome of those conversations. That's probably partly why it does feel so real.

[@sezzyridge]

It was intricately carved, and SO well established.

[@Icelandchan]

This reminds me of an interview a little time ago on a German YT channel where a trans women had to talk to a politician who is part of the right-wing extremist party, over here in Germany. And this host just sat there and was like "we have to hear both sides!" while the politician constantly lied and the trans woman had to correct him. The host was like "we don't know what is true!" and smiled. This talk was about the new self-id law starting next month. While there were big texts on the screen explaining the truth (about the new law), it was not claryfied in the show itself. Who would stop to read a text that is longer than 2 or 3 lines? That way, lies were spread. Again.

[@jonny_piratefox]

Leroy is really just a stone ngl, but at least he got the shitstorm he deserved after this shit. Also good for Hannah that she ended that interview when she couldn't take it anymore

[@Elenuay]

Yeah, I was reminded of that one too. That whole interview series was a horrible idea tbh.

[@literallyap0tat0-q7q]

@@Icelandchan "hearing both sides" seems to work that way so often. It's used to platform misinformation and gives it as much credence as proven facts

[@spysoldierscout4562]

The false balancing was so egregious in that one. And then later, when he admitted in his statement video, that he actually stepped in and showed the politician his place? *Well, why did you cut it all out then?!*

[@ded_plant]

This comment reminded me of that French interview where the interviewer told a transphobe to shut the f*ck up

[@MidnightPhoenix]

And the fact that Elle still gives the benefit of the doubt to the interviewer, and says that she probably consider herself as an ally when she obviously doesn't

[@emilybastong3896]

I didn't interpret that line as Elle giving her the benefit of the doubt but more highlighting the fact that even many people that claim to be allies still push harmful narratives Like the interviewer actually thought this was okay because she genuinely thinks that it is a debate

[@Emma-Maze]

The bathroom discussion is always so stupid because A) if men wanted to assault women in their bathrooms they could literally already do that B) Cis Men do in fact assault women, kill women, abuse women, mostly in their own homes and in public institutions at rates that are way too high and the same people that are big on raising concerns about trans women using the bathrooms they have used since forever don't give a rats arse and do nothing to advocate for solutions to the actual, widespread issues and that women face.

[@angelawossname]

Why do transphobes want trans men in women's toilets etc? Are they going to ask for a genital check? Do the cis men want to go into women's toilets knowing we won't do a genital check and just claim to be trans men? Putting trans men in women's spaces will absolutely increase violence towards women. We are going to get all the cis male predators coming into women's spaces and claiming to be trans men.

[@crashley47]

maybe they're afraid they're gonna 'hurt' a transwoman instead

[@silu3737]

that scene pissed me off so much

[@izzywes9839]

Right. I was so sad for El, just wanted to hug her

[@Cyborg2055]

Yeah I just wanted to punch Katy for doing that to Elle, who was just being herself

[@Luka-tb2bp]

Wait wait, how did I miss that Heartstopper s3 is out. Let's gooo! (I will rewatch the video when I have watched the season!)

[@HocksEvan]

good luck have the tissues ready

[@stephaniel2850]

It's incredible 🧡But yeah, be prepared for some legit heaviness, especially in the first half of the season. It's still Heartstopper, it will still ultimately always have an underpinning of hope, but it still really hurts to watch such lovely and beautiful characters struggle so much to get there 🥺(on the upside, the whole cast really brought their a game this season, especially Joe and Kit and they were already fantastic to begin with! But they both managed to break my heart and then heal it again in all new ways with s3 lol. But Yasmine and Will have also gotten SO good and I adore Elle and Tao this season too 🥰)

[@CrissaKentavr]

As someone who transitioned almost thirty years ago - it's gotten to be really tiring to see young or newly transitioned trans people being forced into these situations. That scene would have made me so angry!

[@noddingyeti]

It is a tv programme.

[@DinosaurNick]

Based on stuff that happens irl​@@noddingyeti

[@lisaistryingtolive]

depicting reality

[@noddingyeti]

@@lisaistryingtolive Based upon reality. There is a big difference.

[@fullofdreams3051]

i'm afraid this title is a bit misleading lol

[@gilesluver]

I agree.

[@ArturGlass.C]

It is but tbf I don't know how I would word it differently. It is still about transphobia and in the show lol. It's just unfortunate there's so much transphobia in shows that it makes more sense for the first reaction to assume the show did something wrong rather than talking about the subject.

[@kai6377]

@@ArturGlass.C true. I came to the comments because if the show was transphobic I'd stop watching/watch the video first, but I was hoping it was just depiction of transphobia and I'm happy that's apparently what it is xP So, adding this video to my watch later list instead.

[@numerousbees12]

​@ArturGlass.C . "the transphobes in heartstopper" would have worked

[@Sh12pen]

Even more, "the transphobia _episode_ in heartstopper" ​@@numerousbees12

[@fennekindol2503]

In a worl full of J.K Rowling, be an Alice Oseman.

[@-Raccon-Glich_Official]

This is comment is so preppy

[@thatpantransguy]

S3 is incredible! The issues and conversations that are brought up are so important and often stigmatized by young people because of how uncomfortable the topics are. I absolutely loved every second! I laughed, I cried, I yelled at the screen… it was an emotional rollercoaster 🫠😭

[@stellasdoesstuff]

I was so proud of Elle for realizing she could leave that situation. I think that if I was there I'd freeze and wouldn't even think to leave.

[@alicebthegachaweirdo8378]

As someone who has never watched Heartstopper, and probably never will, I don’t know what I’m doing here.

[@AkkkakKka]

You should watch it, it’s very cute

[@mc-rn8ro]

Nobody cares that you'll "probably never watch it." This isn't the counterculture olympics, go elsewhere.

[@alicebthegachaweirdo8378]

@@mc-rn8ro Rude

[@AkkkakKka]

@@mc-rn8ro woah that's a little aggressive, they never said that because it's bad or something

[@Bunny_Bill]

Same here 💀

[@Ferdinand_VonAegir]

Favourite show + Favourite LGBTQ+ youtuber = good times

[@ryanrusche-tu9bl]

after when she was like "I should have known this was going to happen" and was mad at herself for it I got so sad! bc I've been in that situation before where I'm excited for something and then it crashes and I feel so stupid for believing it would be good or safe

[@609Blackrose]

I remember when I came out as trans, my dad suddenly kept making anti-trans posts. I called him a bigot and he claimed he wasn't because his lesbian SUBORDINATE hasn't called him one. By the way, he is a TSA manager at a Major airport, no fucking shit she won't call him a bigot.

[@excessivelyfangirlingbookw3339]

I’m sorry that happened to you. I hope he’s come around by now, but if he hasn’t, I hope you’re in a place to comfortably go NC (or have done so). It’s scary to think that people can just flip a switch like that and be not even slightly embarrassed about stating their hate so openly…

[@609Blackrose]

@@excessivelyfangirlingbookw3339 I'm in rough spot after rough spot, but I'm getting there. Thank you. As far as I can tell he hasn't come around, and it's been years now.

[@excessivelyfangirlingbookw3339]

@@609Blackrose that's a shame, I guess some people just can't be helped... I'm glad you're better though even if it's still not perfect. I know I'm just a random internet stranger, but I'm proud of you. I know it's hard to persevere and sometimes life just sucks, but you will reach the top of the mountain and be able to look back at the path that you've conquered. Have a lovely day :)

[@julescolon6502]

I hate when they tokenize the queer people in their life. My family does that with my gay uncle and used to do that with my trans uncle

[@Set666Abominae]

I used to manage a charity bookshop, and I would always feel a little lifted whenever someone would buy Heartstopper, because I knew there was a good chance they’d come out of the books with a better understanding of what LGBTQ+ people go through.

[@WibblyWobblyEtc]

agreed! I also really loved the moment later on when elle said of the interviewer 'she probably thinks of herself as an ally'. I was worried they would just broadly label her in-show as a villainous transphobe which I think would have been a very simplistic and unrealistic message to viewers, and would have allowed people who might fall into similar traps - referring to trans rights as a 'debate', thinking of terfs as just 'feminists', equating the 'opinions' of bigots with the actual lives of trans folk - to dismiss the idea that it's THEM being shown on screen because they would not think of themselves as transphobic. there's a huge middle ground between actively hating trans people and being a genuine and informed ally, and most people occupy that space. I hope the line about the interviewer possibly seeing herself as an ally provided a moment for such people to pause and examine if they themselves are also aspiring allies who are falling short.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

The moment I saw that scene, I was like, “JAMIE MIGHT REACT TO THIS! I need to know what he will think of this.” Darcy had Anti-Homophobia Cheese, Australian legends have canned tomato products. P.S. This season hit me like a ton of bricks.

[@lucypreece7581]

Season 3 was brilliant and all the harder topics were handled very well and with great care and for me this season there was a character and a scene I really related to and that is Imogen and her conversation with Nick during their Uni open day tour. Imogen talks about portraying comp het (compulsory heterosexuality) all the time because that is what is expected from her by society and by those around her and how she never really liked boy and felt nothing when with the boys she "dated" and feels she only dated them to have the image of having a boyfriend. I related so much to that. I am lesbian but didn't come out until i was around 20. I am now 26. And that was becasue I was portraying comp het for so long. I had boyfriends in high school and college because that's what you did. it was the way to fit in and survive those environments. But i felt nothing with those guys I was with. Everything felt empty and flat and forced. I was also sexually assaulted by one of the guys I was with as well. When I stopped forcing myself to do comp het and just let myself be me I felt so much freer. I love where I am in my life now and thankfully coming out was good for me because I have a good family. But I was lost for so long. So I love that Heartstopper showed this. I felt really seen. I was Imogen. I am Imogen. Her story, is my story.

[@caffeizo]

i wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy 😭 i really wish people didn't act like you can just "ungay" as if it works like that. that perspective just enforces comp het because of a forced avoidance of expressing interest in people of the same gender as you, like there should be some sort of shame in being queer.

[@lucypreece7581]

​@@caffeizo sadly society just forces comp het onto people. Places like high school where there is peer pressure and a need to fit in and having to keep up certain images and stuff enforce comp het. I portrayed conpe het and got these "boyfriends" because I was so desperate to be in with the "cool" kids. To fit in. To be accepted. To be like them. And every single piece of media that I was exposed to at that time (my mother was very controlling that's important for context) showed like boy girl pairings and relationships and nothing else. It's just how it is for a lot of people. And it sucks. And it shouldn't have to be the case. But for a lot of people like myself that's how it is. I am out now both internally and with most of my family (not my mother. I am no contact with her for reasons) and happy with who I am. I am just mad that missed out on the chance to explore life and my sexuality sooner. I am mad that I tried to appeal to all these people who didn't even matter so much. I am mad that a chapter of my life that could have been the most fun and experimental is a chapter I missed out on.

[@caffeizo]

@@lucypreece7581 i'm happy that you finally get to be you. sure, you haven't been able to be you for a long time, but the important part is the present and being able to be with people you want to be with and not those who you thought you should have been with at the time. i think everyone in this scenario, especially in your shoes, wishes it would have been different. best of luck to your future and whom you may love, don't ever forget that there's an entire community who has your back 🤍🏳️‍🌈

[@indujakannan885]

Minor correction - Elle isn’t in art college, she just goes to a special arts high school because of her talent. Just want to note that because it’s much worse that they set up a high school student to be attacked in this interview.

[@angelawossname]

British people will sometimes refer to high school as "college". What people in North America call college, people in GB call uni, short for university. Jamie isn't wrong, there's just a translation issue.

[@indujakannan885]

@@angelawossname oh I wasn’t aware! Thank you for the correction.

[@PriorCracker]

College is usually what some people attend at the age of 16-18 in the uk, not the same as American college

[@elieli2893]

@@PriorCracker It's so confusing sometimes to make sure we're talking about the same year level of education when talking with people from different countries :D In my country there are two options after attending ninth grade, for the age group of 16-18; "readery" (more theory-focused in preparation for university studies) and "profession school" (more practical-focused to prepare for starting in a profession often straight after this education - hairdressers, masons, carpenters, cooks, beauticians, mechanics, etc etc). I usually go with "high school" and "vocational school" for English translations :D

[@blossompetal3644]

Omg i literally screamed in my pillow when the interviewer was like “sorry IF I offended you!”

[@LexBeelen]

As soon as i saw the trans character get asked to do an interview in an episode called "bodies" i knew where it was going, but the dawning horror of the realism of the transphobia and the word choice still came

[@PokhrajRoy.]

3:19 Jamie really said: “Honey, you’ve got a big storm coming!”

[@thestarsailor972]

I understood that reference!

[@ChosenOfHestia]

Yassss Jamie and Heartstopper!! Fun fact: My mom loves the show so much that to stop herself from watching the whole thing immediately, she won't look at ANY heartstopper things online in case there's spoilers, and is limiting herself to one episode per week. (She's doing surprisingly well too!) Watching Agatha all along helps (of course there's also Teen, played by Joe Locke). Anyway, love the channel Jamie, keep up the good work!

[@oly_olympiadis]

18:28 "that's not a real apology, Katie. You're not sorry, are you?" With the most English accent I've ever heard 😂

[@IT_217]

I think that if they made the interview as bad as it can be in reality there would have been a risk of the audience finding it unbelievable. Reality can be a lot worse than some people realise and showing just a taste can be enough to get sympathy while being totally accurate can make people think it too much to be possible.

[@komaedakat1583]

Season 3 of heartstopper was a roller-coaster, I cried during nearly every single episode. I love how real all the characters and their relationships are depicted, no one is perfect, but you can tell they're trying to be there for each other.

[@gilesluver]

So this *adult* brings a teen on and tries to make an example of her? I hope she's fired and i hope the teacher apologized (if she didn't do this deliberately).

[@PriorCracker]

The teacher is a trans woman herself. And she had just as much information as elle about this interview

[@callmewill]

the teacher did apologise and when Elle said something amongst the lines of “it’s fine. i should’ve expect it” the teacher clearly stated that no, she shouldn’t have expected anything like it. her teacher is clearly trans friendly (and apparently she’s trans too)

[@EmmaThw]

I appreciate that the teacher that talked to Elle about the interview apologized and made it clear that she did not know better and yet should have. It's good to show adults apologizing, especially adults in positions of power apologizing to minors, something Heartstopper does a lot!

[@DesertIslandDisk]

These situations that Elle went through are why I’m scared to be out to more than my friends and family. Not that I’m expecting to be interviewed on the radio lmao but that people will ask these questions from the pov of the radio host, challenging me on MY right to exist, as if it’s a debate that I can be who I am and live the way I live. Edit to add: this is why I’m grateful for cis allies who can speak against transphobes and we as trans people don’t have to be the only ones doing the emotional labor of fighting for our rights

[@mcfrog5473]

17:36 I agree that it was kinda mild compared to what could have happened, but I also think it’s kinda nice that they showed how upsetting even this more subtle transphobia can be. I think it brings across the message that these types of questions aren’t ok to ask someone who didn’t agree to this kind of conversation even better than if they had gone full-on overt slur calling or something because then the subtler message would have gotten lost behind the obvious “transphobia is bad”

[@tauIrrydah]

I swear her mum was ready to jump in the booth and tear the interviewer a new one.

[@EllieseBrown]

Omggggg I’m so glad that the show brought this up because it’s such an important topic that needs to be discussed. As painful as it is, the first step in acceptance is showing what transphobia is so that it can be avoided. Proper education on the trans community is crucial for more people to change their perspectives. So Jamie I’m so happy you’re sharing this with more amazing people. My friend who is a bi cis-male and myself, an aro-ace and bigender person both watched season 3 on the day it came out. It was a necessity haha. We both sat through this scene and had very different perspectives. The transphobia went right over my friend’s head and he thought Elle was just nervous and uncomfortable about being interviewed on a public radio. As soon as the interviewer started asking about the impact Elle’s trans identity has on her art, god I felt her pain. I mean she has come to accept herself as trans but it hurt so much that the radio interviewer didn’t ask permission for this topic to be discussed previously. I paused the tv to tell my friend why I was like ‘nooooo elle :(‘ as soon as I explained the ‘terf’-y situation he was oh and then we continued watching and the interview went that way. He was so shooketh lol and apologised profusely for not being educated. I just explained that this is the reason why it is being shown on Heartstopper to provide wider education so that people can understand the subtleties and struggles that our community goes through.

[@jaybehkay2438]

Yasmine talked about it I think in the podcast about trans teens being forced to be activists when they just want to be teenagers and watching this scene and thinking about that makes me want to cry so bad. Elle was so excited about her art 😭😭😭

[@Amanda-0987]

This scene was so hard to watch…especially as someone a bit older who has seen how the media treats marginalised people. I was nervous for Elle as soon as she was asked but when I saw her parents were with her I was lulled into a false sense of security like ‘surely, they wouldn’t do this to a TEENAGER in front of her parents…’ oh how wrong I was. I was so heartbroken for Elle. I do wonder if Heartstopper waited until season 3 for this moment so it would be really impactful. Like, primarily, we’ve seen Elle have a pretty smooth transition. She’s well supported by her parents, her friends, her school (all things that feel rare in depictions of trans youth) and she even attends an art school with other trans and non-binary students and I believe possibly even her teacher(?). So, we as the audience, we see Elle thriving, her trans identity not holding her back…so when she steps outside the safety of her friends, family and schooling and interacts with ‘the real world’ (the reality we as the viewer know is happening in our real lives) it is jarring to see this beautiful, intelligent, talented character enter this situation - the impact is bigger because our experience of Elle is through this, almost, queer utopian lens. It’s a reminder that Heartstopper is what could be, not necessarily what is. But it also demonstrates how to care for someone you love who might face these challenges. It shows fiercely defensive parents, teachers who care, friends who actively reach out to offer support and a boyfriend who knows he can’t fix it, but wants to share with his love how much he loves, supports and believes in her. That’s my favourite thing about Heartstopper, actually, is that it shows what to do, ways to help and what kids/teens might not be able to manage on their own.

[@meganboucher8100]

I learned more about the interview in this video because I couldn’t even register what the interviewer was saying due to my own anger at how Elle was being treated.

[@Shampyon]

That show really did a good job of highlighting the disparity in how they frame the "debate". They overwhelmingly platform the tranbsphobe side, then they pit experienced media trained transphobe activists against inexperienced untrained random trans people, even though respected experienced media trained transgender activists exist. It's the same thing news media used to do to feminist activists in the 70s and 80s. They'd choose either the least experienced or most absurd fringe extremists to paint a negative picture of the movement as a whole. A deliberate tactic to delegitimise a social justice movement. Yet another overlap between the TERF movement and misogynist conservatism.

[@fandomnomad8842]

Hey, Jamie! I just bought your book, and I nearly cried when I saw it was signed. It means so much to me to see your signature and know that another trans man was really there, another person like me was holding this book, WROTE this book, and signed it with a smiley face. I know that sounda dumb, but it meant a lot to me. Keep being you ❤

[@megdelaney3677]

💙LOVE HEARTSTOPPER!!!💛 I saw the episode & was so mad at the radio host!!!

[@spiffywolf2850]

"With one final spurt of bullshit" ill have to remember that line. Love the your video and the show alot!

[@dielizzy-ts2rv]

I love that analysis thank you Jamie ^^. This bathroom discussion is so dumb. They also always ignore that bathrooms for disabled people are unisex T.T. That is something they ignore everytime (angry sidelook at JK Moulding).

[@ATallTransgender]

I'm not aware of the full context and I know it's not the exact same but it is a very similar situation but I have seen a video of Bimini Bomb Bolash (sorry I can't remember how to spell their name) talk about how when they were asked to go on a show to talk about their book I believe and they were asked to go in a performance outfit like a bright pink thong and panty set and they immediately canceled because they knew that they weren't going to be taken seriously talking about the actual issue that they were contacted about. It's very similar in my mind like the intention was to exploit their Fame and their gender identity for whatever they wanted to talk about.

[@taranee9]

This reminds me... I've been listening to a state TV weekly science podcast channel (I'm Italian, for context) for a while and at some point the topic of the week was puberty blockers. I was so scared they were going to say horrible things but in fact it was very scientific and inclusive. There were two experts, one endocrinologist and one psychologist, and they actually talked about the importance of puberty blockers (which have been researched for years as they're mainly used for cis kids, for example) and debunked a lot of misconceptions as well! It restored my faith in humanity ❤

[@aimeerivers]

i love Heartstopper so much. it’s beautiful that Elle’s art teacher is played by a trans woman, but her transness is never alluded to in the show. that shows there’s more to people than their gender identity.

[@theunintelligentlydesigned4931]

I hate debates. If we ran boxing matches the way we ran debates, it would go like this: In this corner, we have a man who believes that 2 + 2 = 5 and in this corner, we have a man who believes Chicago is the capital of Illinois. You know the rules. Each contestant gets fifteen minutes to do whatever they want, hit below the belt, use brass knuckles, coat their gloves in poisonous gas, absolutely anything for fifteen minutes. So the one man pulls out a gun and shoots the other. Now everyone believes that 2 + 2 = 5 because he won the debate. We need fewer debates and more discussions. Discussions follow rules such as I language, don't talk over each other, no kitchen sinking, ask only genuine questions, no presumptive questions, and be willing to listen.

[@RhombusOfTheJ]

Bro thank god I thought Heartstopper was being transphobic 😭 I mean it still isn't good but like its better

[@mandarinablue38]

That's because the title is clickbaity.

[@RhombusOfTheJ]

@@mandarinablue38 but it's also accurate

[@thischannelisdead9]

I agree with what you said about the first two seasons shying away from serious topics! That's sort of why I didn't enjoy them as much. Topics were dipped into but never explored and I constantly felt like it lacked something. After reading Solitaire, a book in the same universe that explores much darker themes, I got attached to the world again because I'd gotten what I needed. Same with season 3, which I felt a lot hapier with despite it being darker.

[@ripmy_creativity]

im so happy that there are almost no transphobic or homophobic comments

[@isobelwhitehouse4459]

I think this scene, like those with Nick defending his right to come out in his own time in previous seasons, feels so authentic because it is not just mimicary, it is something the actors have experienced. And not just the actors but Alice too. Whilst I love the show for its persistant love and hope, it is these raw moments that feel the most cathartic. They hurt because you know the pain is real. I'm greatful you did this video, though you really worried me with the title.

[@YellowGiraffeGal]

As I was watching that scene, all I could think about was the absolute disgusting treatment of Yasmine Finney by a certain section of the Doctor Who "fandom" last year.

[@kirstenmanson5515]

It was really, really interesting to hear your view on that scene. I'm glad you shared it! I've watched Season 3 and I very much enjoyed it. I also love what the show is doing for representation!

[@finley-green]

I’m really glad you made a video about this!! I had the same experience with getting progressively more uncomfortable on Elle’s behalf as the interview progressed and I thought it was done really well. You had a great point about the bathroom topic too.

[@tommybrown8845]

I'm a cis man, the radio station scene made me cry. Did sound very yay, good for her then it was a gut punch

[@brinagotsued]

I was born and (mostly) raised in Sweden, most bathrooms I have encounter during my 30+ years have been gender neutral and I have never been threatened in a single public one. Edited to ad that I'm a cis female and have been attacked in other places.

[@ImperiatrixMatt]

Thanks for your view on this. When the show was going to deal with more difficult topics knowing that they were going to have charlie's mental health, that transphobia would appear in the show. It was a good thing for it to be shown with the points you make about showing it to people in this way. It shows the deception in the interviewer that the teacher who is also trans (i am making the assumption of that though as the actor is trans) was also duped into thinking it was a positive interview. Outside of the transphobia, it was good to see the interaction between Rebecca Root (the teacher) and Yasmin Finney as a whovian having the first trans companion in doctor who (Root) with the first one on tv (Finney).

[@ImperiatrixMatt]

Also to answer the last question about the season in general, the way charlie's mental health was portrayed was good in my opinion, and the pressure put on Tara as she is one of the top academic students in the school. The only problem (which I have seen other queer men pick up on) was the way that sex between men was portrayed, and that there is only one way that queer men have sex, and not a full discussion of what sex is for queer men.

[@nicked_fenyx]

Thanks for covering this. I agree 100% with the points made in this video. As a trans guy, this season of Heartstopper was a bit harder to watch than previous seasons, specifically because they dug a bit more into the difficulties faced by trans people. The previous two seasons very lightly touched on trans stuff, but for the most part they really normalized Elle's existence as simply being the girl/woman that she is. I really enjoyed that because it's not something we see often. Usually, even if we do see a trans character included in a positive way in mainstream media, the focus for them is on their struggles as a trans person. It's nice sometimes to just see trans people existing happily, accepted for who they are, etc. That said, I also understand that the world we currently live in doesn't allow most of us to live that way, so it's important to address and educate about those struggles in appropriate ways. The radio interview scene with Elle, as well as some of the scenes surrounding her physical relationship with Tao and the dysphoria she experiences, were handled well imo. They were hard for me to watch because I've faced - and continue to face - similar issues. But I deeply appreciate the show's producers covering these topics in a way that might help cisgender allies watching the show better understand and empathize with our experiences. Yasmin Finney has done a terrific job playing the role of Elle, and I absolutely adore the character of Tao as well and the way he's willing to learn and support Elle in whatever way she needs atm. Ironically, I'm married to someone whose first name is also Tao (well, half of his first name, lol), and he is equally supportive. Gotta love good representation. Heartstopper ftw.

[@_justapersoninthisworld_]

I just finished s3 half an hour ago, so this came at the perfect moment!

[@Saskiaham]

Lets make one thing clear to cis and Trans people: A feminist isn't a feminist when Trans people aren't involed. A trans persons life isn't a debate. Goodnight

[@noddingyeti]

Anyone can be a trans just by claiming they are. There is no requirement to socially transition, no requirement to change your pronouns, no requirement to change your physical appearance, and no requirement to have a particular motivation for making the claim. All you have to do is claim a different gender and you as an individual defines what that gender means to you. Unless the definition of trans is made more specific i do not see how you can call yourself a feminist if it can include ALL trans women. Either you need to be more specific about the sub categories of trans women that can be included, or you have to be more specific on the definition of what it means to be a trans woman.

[@Saskiaham]

@noddingyeti sorry if my comment didn't make much sense. Let me clarify. It doesn't matter if you have transitioned or not. If someone's feminism doesn't include the lives of Trans people (ftm AND mtf), then it isn't feminism. Trans women are women as well. And if one type of woman is left out, then we're all left out. I never said a person needs to be fully on transitioned, I'm talking about how women of all kinds, even those who are Trans (transitioned or not), deserve to be apart of feminism

[@noddingyeti]

@@Saskiaham My point is that someone can be trans without any transition at all. Therefore everyone potentially could be a woman. If everyone is included, then what actually is feminism for?

[@Saskiaham]

@@noddingyeti feminism is for equality

[@LucyJrts]

@@noddingyeti I think you're misunderstanding why trans women might call themselves trans women having not gone through medical transition (first of all... if you're identifying yourself as "trans woman" then you HAVE begun to socially transition) Point A: it's expensive, and may be temporarily out of reach for some Point B: transgender healthcare options like HRT can take a while to manifest physically, so someone might be calling themselves a trans woman while still appearing outwardly quite masculine Point C: there is a very significant argument that is used by transphobes against providing HRT to trans people because it doesn't appear that they're "trans enough". In other words "why give oestrogen to this supposed trans woman if they're not already doing everything in their power to identify as a woman WITHOUT the hrt?" Because of this idea, many trans women feel the need to display their transness outwardly as much as possible in order to "earn" the right to gender-affirming care... That is NOT a good mindset. Please don't encourage it.

[@Suzanne15]

Seeing this explained in this context, outside of myself, has been so helpful for me to understand my own past experiences, thank you for highlighting and explaining this very real problem to me.

[@kktypescript2137]

Heartstopper is what every queer adult wishes they had as a kid ❤️ just wholesome kids being kids who happen to be queer. I loved season 3, it was so hard to watch but so real to so many

[@emilybastong3896]

Season 3 already had me sob through most episodes. But Elle's storyline hit on a much deeper level. Not just the interview and her trying to come to terms with how awful the world is behaving towards her and other trans people especially trans women but also the scene where she explains her gender dysphoria to Tao. It was sweetened by Darcy's gender discovery journey but it still hit super hard. One thing I want to add... I googled the actress and one of the very first suggestions Google gives you is "[actress] real name" and that somehow made it even worse. Like why are people so obsessed with knowing dead names?!

[@gilesluver]

The worker might not have realized how offensive the interviewer would be/was being, but picked it up from the family. She might have thought last week was last week and this was meant to "balance it out".

[@EmonEconomist]

I am trying to give her credit by assuming she doesn't usually actually listen to the show tapings, but she was there on this instance because Elle was a teenager and had her parents and boyfriend there who needed to be accompanied while in the building. So maybe she just had no idea either. (But I think that's probably an overly generous interpretation!)

[@ginadanca9595]

I'm so glad you talked about this scene! So good to hear your perspective and the details you noticed or related with. Made me tear up watching this. I like how you said that the scene helps people become more aware of when there is transphobia being brought into questions and conversations. Transphobes and/or ignorant people tend to bring up gender neutral bathrooms without going into transwomen in women spaces because they're already so ignorant about the fact that that's the reason transphobes have such an issue with it. But then they say stuff about feminism and trans people making it clear that that is where their issue lies. Idk if that feels true but I've noticed a lot of ignorance while talking about one thing, but then obvious opinion and transphobia, specifically trans women, in another thing they may bring up. it's messed up. It is like they aren't even thinking about say, Elle, being a transwoman, and how messed up it is to say that to her face or any of the crap they already are throwing at her. so pointed. I think talking to transphobes/queerphobes is so draining because they don't think they are being offensive. They just ask a bunch of targeted Qs and then call us sensitive instead of realizing they are the ones being ignorant and insensitive. I had to deal with that with a family member.They talk about queer stuff just being a "hot topic" or ask why it matters to me or if i have queer friends and "that's why"... anyways obviously this video got me thinking in a good way but also reminded me of those types of convos I've had to deal with:( thanks for this video. I guess we are all not alone. I just wanna keep learning so we can all be there for each other better no matter what we are facing.

[@tamhalls646]

I would love to know how much input Yasmin Finney had into the creation of this scene - as a young trans actress I can't help but think that she has almost certainly experienced this kind of interview for real, you know, invited to talk about her art (acting) and then all of a sudden being asked these exact type of transphobic questions. Like you said Jamie, first rule of responding to media requests is doing a background check on the interviewer and platform, and I would also add, assume the worst until you find solid evidence otherwise. The only slight disagreement I have with anything you said in this video is where you said it's just not worth engaging in the "debate" - I absolutely agree with your reasoning, it is definitely exhausting and we will never change the bigots minds, but I think there is value in showing other trans folk, especially young trans folk, that there are people on their side who are willing to speak up and speak against the transphobic rhetoric, and also for the benefit of the people who are on the fence so they're not just hearing the transphobes. I don't argue with transphobes because I think I can persuade them to change, I do it because too often silence feels like complicity.