Jan Esmann - 2nd Buddha at the Gas Pump Interview

[@rejeanoe]

Thank you Rich for this interview. I appreciate Jan’s experience. Mine is that realization leads to annihilation of everything within time, including the body and the now. What is left is pure appreciation or awareness of everything without any judgments.

[@janetkali7073]

Jan - this is great. I like what you say about those who are simply awakened and promote their teachings and state as enlightenment.

[@unkdaved]

What I appreciate most about this interview, and about the 2011 BATGAP interview with Jan, is that his teaching is authorized by experience; not mere intellectual assent to some school of thought. He's had tons of experiences and methodically works to understand them and convey their meaning. Next to the talking heads of Advaita there is no comparison.

[@ama-tu-an-ki]

Brilliant interview. Touches a lot of buttons in a lot of people. Thank you for pushing mine! Lots to work on :-) I'm slowly having a better mind model of the stages, thanks to all of the TBATGP interviews, thank you!. Perhaps one day a state-change.

[@waterkingdavid]

This is a jewel of a conversation. If it can be listened to with an open mind I think its is invaluable. It occurred to me that since all discussion and reflection is by its very nature abstractive it is useful to find a word that goes beyond all other words. That words like "kundalini" and "shakti" did not exist in the lexicon of the West until recently surely does not mean no-one experienced these "things" before.Each one of us could choose a word that is suitable for his or her own tastes. For me I am happy with old fashioned word "love" to describe that which is the highest. Whoever or whatever we are we are all part of that love.

[@catlinmorgan]

I enjoyed hearing your story and experiences very much thank you Rick and Jan..great! Sat Chit Ananda.

[@phonesavers]

A very good interview...It looks outside the box...Also very descriptive of all the terms "awakening ect.. well done Jan

[@david203]

A personal note (comments welcome): I consider myself spiritually almost completely ignorant. My goal is to be totally ignorant, on the side of the mind and ego, and totally spontaneous and free, on the side of That which already does not change. As I naturally live, I pay attention to what I resonate with in spiritual teachers of several kinds. Jan Esmann is fascinating, and I'm learning from him. I don't judge him, others, or myself by appearances. I assume I'm not ready yet for the Shift in identification, since it hasn't happened. I'm fine with that, since I know growth (return home) is inevitable and that nothing, including death of the body, can interfere. Every new experience is fun, at least in some way. Somehow I'm able to help others to become more peaceful and happy, which always puzzles me, since I know I'm not really worthy of helping others until I've truly helped myself first. I am an imperfect guide who only knows how to point the way somehow, for many people, and only intellectually. I'm mostly satisfied with life, yet looking forward to increasing growth and bliss myself.

[@katherinedez7968]

Thank you for very interesting interview. I felt that when mooji belittles kundalini - it's has been to diminish any ego attachment to it. Which can happen subtly or not so subtly. But I do wander why more people don't speak up and share their transformative experiences in this way, it's really helpful when they do - thanks Jan

[@squamish4244]

Moojtlceasin belittles kundalini perhaps because he has never experienced it, or at least its more severe manifestations. It can drive people nearly crazy, and trust me, they want nothing more than to be rid of it. Kundalini syndrome is a very difficult disorder to treat, though. Most meditation teachers don't know how to work with it very well - it generally takes an experienced energy healer.

[@matthewervvin]

These interviews are hitting the skids.

[@ama-tu-an-ki]

Why so?

[@matthewervvin]

nanomyou5 They better get better soon or I'll stop making monthly donations.

[@evangelinaogren]

Shakyamuni Buddha realized enlightenmet on seeing the morning star. He said, "I and all beings on earth together attain enlightenment at the same time." From " Transmission of the Light" by Keizan

[@edithprogue]

Perfect pick for the next Coen brothers film.

[@mcnkey]

I no longer wonder what Alfred Hitchcock would have attempted to elucidate if he'd espoused eastern mysticism ;) - that said, I listened to as a podcast on a flight from Beijing and honestly wondered about things such as western spiritual arrogance and a certain arising competitiveness..., not that it's necessarily limited to the west, but our brand of personality 'flaws' seem to ring especially hollow (and 'self'-centered) in the hallowed halls of 'I Am'

[@Sethan777]

Total mindstuff...love what comes out about the simplest thing in life "Your/the Self", if you believe the mind ;-) Levels of awakening and so on. Just find the space in your experience, which is totaly free of thoughts, and notice it. YOU never had one thought and seeing this, will clear all that up. :-)

[@lilasterling4362]

For the life of me, I can't figure out why people think that being overweight has anything to do with being Self Realized. This mindset comes from too much exposure to eastern thought and images of wobbly-kneed, cane carrying, skin and bones men.

[@searchsummit]

There have been some rather overweight Indian saints. Swami Nityananda, etc. How about Ganesh?

[@lilasterling4362]

Rick Archer I'm sure there are some Rick. For some reason physical frailty is associated with spirituality. Maybe it has to do with the whole notion of renunciation, which when taken on as a practice rather than an organic happening can lead to all sorts of things people can get caught up in...many to their own detriment.

[@makeway4thebigfish]

Lila Sterling Over wieght equals, greed, unhealthyness, a lack of self control and also if eating animals causing extreme suffering to other sentient beings for personal pleasure, Enlightened Master?

[@makeway4thebigfish]

Rick Archer Yes in a country of poverty and malnutrition I find this hard to comprehend.

[@Tessateaful]

***** thank you for this interview even though most of the concepts; levels of awakening were foreign to me. Im sorry if you feel the pain of the world. I also have spent many years processing and in my case internalizing so much suffering. Just starting to know myself beyond this.

[@lynnbouchard2756]

David Spero also teaches the same message Jan teaches. His point on making a distinction between awakening and real enlightenment is a very important one. As is discussion on Divine Bliss. In my small opinion too many non-dual teachers are short changing themselves and their students from the fullness of being. You don't really hear them talking about divine love devotion and bliss. Such a shame because life is so much more. It takes a great deal of honesty (which can lead to depression) and deeper heart desire to embrace the full enchilada......the supreme bliss of being......non duality teachers have only taken a bite

[@MarkDParker]

For what it's worth, the only thing I'm getting in a "transmission" is a whole bunch of ego. I'm sorry, Jan, but that's how it came across on this end. Igor Kufayev, who speaks a lot on Kundalini too, in contrast, radiated (or transmitted?) tremendous insights to me through BATGAP, and I can't even say that I understood half of what he was teaching -- intellectually speaking. Jan might gain more traction if he displayed more humility. These categories and hierarchies are largely arbitrary, taken from antiquity and translated across cultures and languages, and they only work if viewed metaphorically. Any attachment to a literal understanding of a spiritual experience creates opposition, resulting in the resurrection of an egoic identification and dualistic worldview, regardless of how non-dual the words sound. Furthermore, extrapolating from one's personal experiences a universal path to enlightenment for others is just another form of religious fundamentalism. Jan's criticism of Adyashanti and Mooji reminded me of Jesus's parable of the laborers, where those who worked all day complained to the boss that they were paid the same wage as those who worked for an hour... Spiritual envy is not a virtue. Having just played the ugly critic, I do appreciate your interviews, Rick, and look for new shows every week with anticipation. You're my new favorite podcaster. Stay strong and thank you...

[@david8157]

Depression is often part of the journey of the soul that brings one to the spiritual process...and awakening can make it worse for a time.....but realisation will obliterate depression like the the morning sun does the dew. Someone who needs psychotic medicine for depression is not self-realised or fully awakened. They may be deep into awakening; and experience many altered non-normal states, but they are not self-realised; not fully awakened.

[@david8157]

***** Just my honest view Jan; based on years of contact with this issue. But lets not trade insults. I dont claim to be self realised; only to be on the way. My comments are honest; not arrogant. All the best.

[@JupiterMoonTune]

Yogananda explained how and why he got heavy. Nisargadatta explained why he still smoked.

[@andthereisntone1]

Impressions after 5 mins - he looks annoyed/irritated? 15 mins. in - he seems very drunk, looks a mess and sounds ridiculous.

[@cshortridge1]

Lol. I don`t think he is any of those things. The internet connection is`nt the best obviously. He seems to have the speech of someone who has some physical difficulties. He does ramble a bit at times, but Rick is able to bring him back to point. He speaks of neurological difficulties quite a bit & he may be referring to his own body/mind in this. I am a nurse who works with people with neurological difficulties, as well as having CP myself. Appearances can be deceiving in this way. I have been mistaken for being drunk myself!! Lol

[@wma7033]

Cheryl Shortridge Good point. The content and the straightforwardness are pretty decent stuff in my view. :)

[@pippick1946]

Cheryl Shortridge The interview from two years earlier is quite different. The constant fluttering of the eyes and the noticeable facial droop are of concern.

[@andthereisntone1]

Cheryl Shortridge Ah, okay, that would make sense then. I should have thought of that. Thanks.

[@cshortridge1]

***** Just for the record Jan, I enjoyed the interview very much, As a nurse & healing energy worker I could tell you were in some sort of distress that seemed to wax & wane. I admire the fact that you carried on the interview despite this. Many people in the `spiritual` circles are under the erroneous assumption that masters don`t suffer any physical maladies. Lol

[@emotionalevolution2238]

Unfortunate to see this guy (who clearly has some profound realizations/attainments/understanding) talk about depression as having a chemical origin. People would do well to look at some of Stan Grofs work, learn about how the perinatal traumas are often a huge basis for all of our chains of biographical conditioning. And only by processing the trauma on the deep levels through shamanic death and rebirth, can we actually free ourselves from the deepest levels of fear and despair. The brain is completely elastic. This guy would do well to participate in some ayahuasca ceremonies or holotropic breath work, and fully allow the terror and seemingly unending despair, to fully enter it, rather than projecting it onto an existential meaning. If he is on SSRI's and thinks he needs them, despite his enlightenment, I'd say he still has some ensuing emotional work on the perinatal/archetypal levels. Otherwise Jan seems spectacular and beyond most teachers I've seen.

[@henkverhaeren3759]

Hang on to the truth you wonderfully say in the last sentence emotional evolution! :)

[@swingtrade2]

an 'enlightened master?' there is no one here. so who' can claim it?

[@swingtrade2]

yup, the world is empty!

[@chela210]

I wonder what he would think of Tony Parsons? Also, if we as a species are on an evolutionary path, I feel that some teachers or gurus are very helpful to the masses on their varied levels of consciousness....all is necessary. It's all good.

[@MarkDParker]

***** There you go again, Jan... On what basis do you make this claim?

[@MarkDParker]

***** Ah... So is this just a game, Jan? Are you simply playing Make Believe with us?

[@MarkDParker]

***** Jan, it doesn't matter whether we're asserting a judgment of this kind in a positive or negative way, I'm concerned as to why indulge in it at all? If you've read my other comments on this BATGAP discussion thread, I don't understand the principle upon which you -- or any of us! -- are qualified to say who is or isn't awakened or realized or enlightened (whatever the term of choice). Judging in this way seems to undermine your own claims to realization, since a diminishment of ego is a necessary consequence of spiritual awakening; yet to express an opinion of this kind, ego must be given free rein. In other words, it's a uniquely egoic act. Now if you can explain to me how I'm wrong, please do. I'm completely open to being taught. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you said in the interview about Mooji and Adyashanti, or what you meant to say about Parsons here.

[@MarkDParker]

***** It didn't come off the way that you seem to recall (as stated in the first paragraph above). In the second paragraph, you seem to take a more aggressive stance. So I'm not sure how to respond... I can't even claim to be familiar with that list of names. I'll take your word on it that they aren't up to snuff... No one is suggesting that you sit in your flat all day. If anything, considering everything I've said on this thread, I'm for getting out and acting as gregarious beings of love, compassion and joy in this world. There's lots we can be doing within our communities to help people wake up in this world (which you may already be doing, I don't know). I'm not a student of Mooji or Adyashanti, so it's not my mission to defend either. But next time, it may not hurt to remember that they aren't raincoats or bricks.

[@rpodury]

It appears that there is a lot of confusion about the terms 'awakening' and SELF REALISATION. There are only two levels- awakening at best could be 'intellectual understanding about SELF REALISATION. What more could be there after self reaiation, when SELF REALISATION in advaita implies to become SELF and there is no 'subject' 'object' affair there. He talks of desire for GOD. Where is GOD separately after SELF REALISATION ? It appears that the terms used have complete different meaning than what they are used in advaita parlance. Interviews shuld not leave people in confusion

[@rpodury]

***** Thanks for clarification. Though it was indicated in the beginning that you were on yoga path, I was under the impression that you have finally arrived at advaita as I believe that there cannot be a higher truth than sankara advaita and all other paths are stages before one arrives at the highest truth. Sankara advaita, I think, is purely knowledge based without any ritual or karma . Perfect knowledge that 'I' as existence and awarenss is not limited to body but is in fact infinite and the body, world and God ar nothing but a thought. Even a thought which is nothing but apparent transormation of ' I ' (as in structure and composition it is not different from pure awaeness.)That is why it is there and at the same tie it is not there whcih sankara calls 'mithya'. Thus the whole creation is maya as it is nothing but thought. Since thogutht is nothing but awareness 'I' only remain as pure awareness. When this perfect knowledge is internalised as personal understanding as different from intellectual understanding, thoughts or the world do not disturb a person who realised this. Rick when he said that there is this silence of Self and activity of the world, he is separating them both and in advaita they are not separate as one AWARENESS' or SELF only is silent and IT only becomes world through thought. One can test for one self. One is aware of thought only after coming to 'silence'. One is not aware of thought during a thought. Thought and silence cannot exist simultaneously . I am not trying to argue. Just I thought I would share. But personally I believe that it is the highest truth

[@vajraloka1]

he should check in with david spero, a kundalini guy

[@MarkDParker]

Maybe some here will be brave enough to attempt an answer to my question... With all this talk of distinguishing "awakened" from "enlightened," I wonder on what basis is anyone qualified to judge? This is a sincere question, nothing rhetorical about it. It seems quite problematic for a mind to evaluate itself, being that it's analytic capacities are conceptual in nature, and what it seeks to evaluate is by definition non-conceptual (non-dual). The problem grows exponentially when we consider the status of another person. This may explain Papaji's reticence to declare more than two or three people in his lifetime "enlightened" (as we learned in Rick's Interview of David Godman). Like smoke from a fire, we can see evidence of ego because ego is a product of biology and, therefore, familiar. But enlightenment? What's our point of reference? With what language do we engage enlightenment? Once we say anything on the subject, we fragment it into a concept and destroy it. So anyone who says of himself, "I am enlightened," he has by that very act, annihilated his union by creating a duality. And, again, he does precisely the same thing when he speaks of another. Rick quoted Maharishi's judgment of the Buddha's teaching as falling short of enlightenment in his discussion with Jan, which seems to expose Maharishi to the same problem: One must be enlightened to judge, but once one judges, one kills his enlightenment. Thoughts?

[@ama-tu-an-ki]

First, it is very difficult, when one talks of the "e"-word as there seem to be so much confusion about this. If you mean "Enlightenment" with the big E, not the previous stages, but a stage of self-realization, where you permanently become dis-identified with stuff and realize your true self, the enlightened non-dual state. Jan explains it in his way on his website, google "stages of enlightenment loveblis" As for your "i am enlightened" creating duality, I do not agree. If you identify with that, yes. If you just identify with your true self (oneness), and you witness your mind saying "this is my experience of realizing my true state, of always having been enlightened", then no. MIND != identification. Mind can lead to identification, it's a necessary (I think), but not by itself a sufficient requirement for identification. Mind doesn't go away, you just dis-identify (using the mind language) with it, for good. Permanently. Irrevocably. This is all my mind stuff, with no experience. Me or you can mind-judge this after our own experience (or rather state).

[@winstono75]

Since there supposedly is no end to the process of our becoming (in the context of eternity) we can never speak with finality. There is always a step higher from which the understanding would deepen. Enlightenment is a somewhat arbitrary delimitation. I am certain that there are beings on our planet who would find Jan's conception of enlightenment to be inadequate. Certainly ultimate enlightenment in the context of our planet does not entail becoming an alcoholic because you can't handle the suffering you are witnessing.

[@MarkDParker]

winstono75 Agree.

[@ama-tu-an-ki]

Not sure I follow, but let me try this. My model, my mind-stuff, my way of using these concepts. May not match with yours. There is no absolute point of reference (think in Newtonian physics, absolute frame of reference). There is (perhaps) only subjective (small experiental self) or null (oneness) frame of reference. In subjective frame of reference, the frame is constantly changing, based on experience. It's all relative (think einsteinian relativity in physics). Can we compare these subjective frames? Yes, perhaps? Will that comparison give us anything meaningful in terms of shared (consentual) truths? Unlikely? Why to do so? To give us more experiences, to shift our frames. So, in effect, my silly comparison agrees with you. In the end, there is no way (in this model) to define what you ask for? who/what/how/when is enlightened and compared to who? Not in an absolute frame of reference. Only subjective (i.e. dualistic) sense, which can give us more experiences. Now, what is the null frame of reference? That should be obvious to non-dualistic thinkiers :-D

[@glenemma1]

Yes, I agree with you.I'm not a christian but will quote the bible for once:''Woe to the lawyers'',meaning thelogians.So much talk and judgements,so much competing among these gurus,so much striving,so much ego.Just live your life as well as you can,offer your life up to the One,or God,or Being itself(from which we are not separate) and give these gurus and their teachings a wide berth.

[@unkdaved]

I'm sad.

[@winstono75]

I don't doubt his realization, but he seems to be quite entangled with the Danish mass consciousness. He is not free from that.

[@ama-tu-an-ki]

How so? Can you illuminate?

[@winstono75]

nanomyou5 for one thing he presents his services pretty much in the same way as Danish healers would do, like a matter of business. And there is something in the way he talks about the CD and whatever it was as objects, as a very solid physical thing, indicating very Danish object relations. And he seems to be somewhat traumatized by the society's dictates that much of what he is talking about is insanity judged from the common point of view. There is probably a lot more I could point out if I watched more of it.

[@unkdaved]

winstono75 Many of the CDs I own are made of atoms.

[@winstono75]

***** Why would it have to be an Indian? I could name a couple of Americans. Rick seems to be far more advanced than him in certain areas, and I wouldn't expect to see that except for the American mass consciousness being more advanced in certain aspects than the Danish, and Jan hasn't been able to outgrow the Danish limitations. He seems to be mostly focused on his interior individual consciousness, and that is worth noting.

[@winstono75]

unkdaved I'm sorry all your mind could do was produce that joke. There are degrees to which consciousness perceives objects as solid or as mental, and Jan seems to be perceiving more solidity than would be expected of a realizer.

[@MarkDParker]

Beware of making experience a fetish. A person suffering from schizophrenia may have all kinds of "experiences" that are not real. More real than "I am" is "we are." The degree to which love, joy, peace, wellbeing and compassion are actualized through a being is the only valid measure of awakening/realization/enlightenment. All the rest is blathering nonsense.

[@unkdaved]

"the only valid measure" and "all the rest" are very big generalizations. How can perfectly subjective experience be "measured?" Are the experiences of sages and realizers through the ages, both east and west, to be dismissed as blathering nonsense, because they were larger than your limiting criteria would allow?

[@MarkDParker]

unkdaved Big generalizations? Yes. But name me a single spiritual teacher of global significance who has taught bliss apart from the sacrifice of love and compassion. I dare say that you can't. The force that binds us to the Ultimate is love. Bliss without love is masturbation. It's an illusion. There is no immersion into the Ultimate without love. It cannot be had by any other means. Buddha and Jesus and a thousand other prophets, gurus and sages support this admittedly big generalization. "There is no eternal life unless a person dies to self." We need to get serious about why we practice.

[@MarkDParker]

A fair question, *****, but you're ignoring the context. When I challenged your authority to judge the spiritual state of Adyashanti and Mooji, my statement was addressed to a very specific situation, to a specific person who had judged two specific individuals in an interview. On the other hand, my "blathering nonsense" comment was a statement of principle that was not directed at anyone. It wasn't even in response to another person's comment. It was simply my response to the overall tone of much of the discussion I had perceived surrounding this BATGAP interview. Furthermore, the principle stated is far from original to me. It's but a paraphrase of teachings given by Jesus, Buddha, et al. As the Apostle Paul wrote: "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." Neem Karoli Baba's answer to Ram Dass (when he asked, What should I do?), "Serve people; feed people." Love again, was this great teacher's highest value. My point in "blathering nonsense" was to say, more or less, don't waste your time chasing experiences (fetishizing bliss, for example) that don't further actualize love, joy, peace, wellbeing and compassion into one's life. This was a statement about introspection, not judging others. Did you think I was talking about you?

[@unkdaved]

Mark Parker The phrase "the force that binds us to the Ultimate" presupposes that "we" and "the Ultimate" are two different objects with the potential to enter into some kind of relation one might call "bonded." What if perfectly subjective experience is itself love-bliss? What if Brahman IS sat-chid-ananda? How are you going to "measure" something that is inherently incapable of being in a relation of comparison with some external standard of measurement because it is always merely identical with itself?

[@MarkDParker]

unkdaved There are many uses of the word "bond." Suggest you study molecular chemistry as a viable example. You're nitpicking over language that can only address the subject obliquely and metaphorically at best. I'm saying that it would be wise to examine the fruit of your spiritual practice. Ignore love at your own peril. I, for one, won't my time on any practice that doesn't place it at the center.

[@renenielsen5146]

Mooji allmost only talk about stopping the identification whit everything, so its funny you both dont mention that

[@kristianandersen9373]

we seem to have a diffrent view on Mooji. I allso live in denmark so im lookingforward to visiting you, all the best from here René

[@kabasakalis]

OK,the bottom line with all these new masters of non-duality is you just can't trust them.This non duality is a freaking business.Don't get fooled.These people have NOTHING new to offer with their theories-"teachings" ,they are just rephrasing (and some times distorting) the ancient teachings of Hinduistic or Buddhist traditions.So my suggestion to everyone is go back to the source.In this Internet age the majority of Buddhist sutras are available as PDFs for free.Non duality and spiritual teachings is NOT a product.And if you ask me,it's totally unethical to demand money in exchange.Donation is a whole different ballgame,nothing wrong with that,but most of the times there's a standard fee someone just has to pay to attend a workshop or private session.Here it is,Buddha's wisdom at your fingertips from the Master Himself,for free: drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B5ikSWBGGN6GMzlKSjhLNjJTdWM&usp=sharing

[@hectortosta6818]

It does not matter anyways ! who cares ?

[@henkverhaeren3759]

The ones that care

[@makeway4thebigfish]

An enlightened master? Why so over weight?

[@ama-tu-an-ki]

In which scripture and in which enlightened masters was it dictated a requirement to be of "X" in your body in order to become awakened or self-realized? I missed that. Maybe it is some passages I have not read. Yes, advice on taking care of your body are given.

[@makeway4thebigfish]

nanomyou5 the more we consume the more mess we make and suffering we cause.

[@JupiterMoonTune]

Yogananda explained how and why he got heavy. Nisargadatta explained why he still smoked.