Jared Diamond - What Causes Religious Belief?

[@PavelSTL]

Never heard of this guy but he was superb, enjoyed listening to what he had to say. When you leave aside political roles of religion, as well as propagation of values in the population, I would say the biggest factor for ubiquity of religion is a feature of our psychology: we don't like uncertainty. Our brains are evolved to be predictive machines: given such and such inputs, the brain anticipates what happens next. Whoever is better at predictions will, for obvious reasons, leave more offsprings. As a result, our brains don't like too much uncertainty, so they create uncomfortable psychological states which we try to get out of (e.g. cognitive dissonance). So if we can't find the answer, we're going to make one up, or listen to someone's "story", conspiracy theory, or whatever it takes to get ourselves back to certainty and comfort. Religion provides that comfortable level of certainty.

[@mtgwdefender]

AMEN! 👍😁

[@IrreverentTetrapod]

He wrote the book "Guns, Germs and Steel." This is one of the best books I've ever read. It's an analysis to chart the fates of different peoples throughout human history and understand why some groups succeeded to develop and advance, while others haven't.There's a documentary series by the same name, in case you're interested.

[@vima602]

Jordan Petersons rebuttals are good with your opinion, brother.

[@SliversRebuilt]

As a skeptic of religious beliefs and a fan of Jared Diamond, I’m actually a bit surprised by the relatively narrow scope of some of his answers here. I suppose it’s just a consequence of the short-form format - and possibly Jared taking care not to venture into areas outside of his field - but I find it odd how little psychology or philosophy was discussed. Sure, religious belief is politically useful, but such an effect seems if anything secondary to the fundamental priority of religious belief, which is the dissolution of doubt. In Peirce’s “The Fixation of Belief,” he notes with great insight that while we often fool ourselves into imagining that our primary goal in forming beliefs, and the point at which we consider them settled, is the arrival at a point of believing something which is true; instead, if we actually observe our behavior with regards to the proper functioning of belief in daily life, a belief is in fact settled once a state of uncertainty has been resolved - truth is a secondary concern at best. In this context, I would submit that it is precisely the inflexible and almost psychotically confident nature of religious belief which accounts primarily for its power, as it serves to dissolve doubt with respect to some of the most troubling ambiguities of human existence: death, moral consequence, a felt sense of personal meaning, etc. That said, great discussion as usual. Thank you for your dedication to what can only be the most important enterprise.

[@marcgottlieb9579]

The Anunnaki that upgraded our DNA from a hominid species have an IQ of 1000 it is estimated...Check Richard Nixon's letter now turned over to the National Archives....Check Dark Journalist channel....They believe in the creator of all..It is all relative...And our relatives who are much smarter than us left these concepts for a reason...

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

I sort of understand your observations but I tend to disagree that belief "serves to dissolve doubt with respect to some of the most troubling ambiguities..." I see uncertainty as a lifelong journey to keep exploring and seeking knowledge, especially as it pertains to any specific belief. We see through a "glass darkly" and our time on earth is just too limited to come to a complete certainty about the "ambiguities of human existence." So although some see faith as " inflexible," I don't see faith that way. We keep learning and trusting, even as we struggle within faith to understand things. I do like the way you structure your sentences!

[@SliversRebuilt]

John Brzykcy well, I should be clear here that I’m talking about the “natural tendencies” of religious belief; obviously there are going to be at least some people - I’ve met a few of them myself - who are capable of holding their religious faith in concert with a genuine skepticism about epistemic certainty and who will readily admit that they could, in fact, be wrong about their beliefs, despite the strength of their faith. Still, this is sort of where it becomes important to consider the relationship between belief and action; even the wisest and most epistemically cautious such people as I have met still behave, ultimately, as if their religious beliefs are, in fact, true. Considering this, I think it’s fair to ask: if a belief is invariably acted upon as if it is inviolably true, can it really be said to ever be genuinely doubted by the actor? I’m not offering an answer to that question, by the way; just saying that I think it’s a consideration worth exploring.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

@@SliversRebuilt I really like your statement ..." if a belief is invariably acted upon as if it is inviolably true, can it really be said to ever be genuinely doubted by the actor." Excellent... and I don't even know how to begin to consider that. I've even read where if we accept certain beliefs as true, the beliefs themselves can somehow "rewire" our brains. Have you ever heard that?

[@SliversRebuilt]

John Brzykcy I don’t know that I’ve exactly “read that” in so many words anywhere, but what I (believe that I) know of neuroscience and modern psychology seems to confirm that - as does my first-person experience, since I sense that such a thing has happened to me in powerful ways more than once before - both for what I believe to have been the better, and likewise for the worse at times.

[@SandipChitale]

The retreat of religions as explainers of natural phenomenon gives a hint. I think most will agree that in the past, humans (in prehistoric times) did not understand the causes of many natural phenomena around them. This was true all over the planet. Hence the ubiquity. Humans, being pattern seeking animals and agents themselves, desired explanations of these phenomena in terms of agencies. The people who invented/imagined ideas to attribute agencies to such phenomenon and explanations, partly discovered (may be even to their delight and surprise) the power that came with it to be able to control other individuals. And to be fair may have also offered comfort in the face of uncertainty and distress. In historic times connections have been made to longing for transcendental. This created positive feedback loop. These were the proto-religions. The power aspect also played a social role as bigger groups of humans came together. The leaders of these groups saw the benefits of power afforded by religions and sponsored codification and formalization (e.g. Council of Nicaea). The power afforded by religions was qualitatively different from the military power or majority power, because of its supernatural and by definition super powerful source. The supernatural power can be claimed as infallible. This had a tremendous appeal. Thus came organized religions. And with the backing of the ruling class and accompanied military powers it was possible to spread the religions (e.g crusades and missions etc). It grew into a symbiosis between governance and religions. In the modern world science has mostly replaced religions as explainer of natural phenomenon. Most religions, sometimes kicking and screaming, have accepted science's role in this area. The inertia of success of religions, their wealth and use in aquiring political power, is carrying them forward still and have been left to mostly to play social and political role in human societies and in some cases stake a claim on morality.

[@SandipChitale]

@Stefano Portoghesi Thanks. It is very interesting to me that people want to trust what was written in books written thousands of years ago by people who were likely ignorant of the workings of natural world those many years ago over that which we know from modern times. Assuming the human knowledge continues to grow the way it has been I would trust the latest settled knowledge any day. If I had a way I would trust the knowledge of future humans over present humans over ancient humans. BTW most people actually practice this day to day when they use modern medicine and technology.

[@SandipChitale]

@INCOMMUNICADO not from a book. These are my thoughts.

[@SandipChitale]

@ Not sure how a person who likely is not Athiest say that Atheiests do not find meaning in their lives. Pretty presumptuous claim I hope you will probably agree? I know Atheists find meaning in their relationships with their loved ones and friends and societies they live in. They find meaning in what humans have achieved and will achieve in future. They find purpose in their lives and go on to live fulfilled lives. Giving meaning and purpose to our lives is upto us. Atheists also find the natural world fascinating and the fact that we understand it to large extent is simply fantastic. Our modern societies are enjoying the fruits of our rational and scientific knowledge and its application to the areas like modern medicine. I would any day prefer to live today or in future if I wish for my well being and health.

[@SandipChitale]

@ no problem. I think modern neuroscience is getting closer to understanding how consciousness emerges fron the brain structure and state and as no one has seen an instance of consciousness without a substrate of a brain, I do not subscribe to dualism and/or idealism. (one example kzbin.info/www/bejne/roPInWSAgLR4mKs) And moreover I do not see the connection between consciousness and its independence from brain as some claim and god (which god(s)?) anyway. I have commented about consciousness on many other CTT videos about it. I will simply state here that specific damage to brain takes out specific aspects of consciousness. Effects of drugs, alcohol and anesthesia on consciousness is well known. And you make claims about existence of god, then the burden of proof is on you. For me, I have not seen any evidence of such entity - god, and BTW which god? zeus? mithras? olympus? or take your pick :) Lastly, I do not see why we cannot find meaning in our own life and our families and friends and fellow citizens? Why can we not give purpose to our lives ourselves.

[@SandipChitale]

@ I do not understand your need for some sort of intrinsic meaning. Actually I do not even understand what it means. If it works for you then well and good. I give meaning to my life by thinking rationally and trying to be a good person with my fellow humans.

[@JeffChen285]

As Husserl has found, one fundamental character of consciousness is intentionality. The next question is what is intentionality? Intentionality is a process in the human's brains to shorten the distance between desire and reality. Religious belief is such an extreme case that the distance between desire and reality equals to zero.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

I like your statement about belief that it is the process where "the distance between desire and reality equals to zero." Did you come up with that definition yourself?

[@JeffChen285]

@@johnbrzykcy3076 Thanks, John. Yes. What I'm trying to do is to observe the western religions from a different angle, especially from outside of the western-phone. What I've found so far is that western liberty and western Christianity is sharing the same root, i.e., liberty is simply a secularized version of Christianity. One of the striking common characters of liberty and Christianity is individualism. I.e., the Individual's desires are always on top of social desires. As a consequence, both liberty and Christianity have failed to deliver positive intentionality to society. Rather, they have delivered a lot of negative things to their own societies such as social interference, sin, judgment day... et.

[@JeffChen285]

The strongest desire for human beings is immortal. Because there is no single evidence of immortal human beings in this lift, therefore religious believers have no choice but anticipate the immortal reality in the next life. The biological root of western liberty pretty much comes from the fear of, or free from, the group interference to each individual chimpanzee, which represents the strongest desire or strongest fear of individuals one can imagine in"this life."

[@JeffChen285]

The greatest fear equals to greatest desire. It is Tom Hobbes who pointed this in interesting dialectical phenomenon out. Thanks, Dr. Skinner, to help me to better understand the nature of western liberty.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

@@JeffChen285 Hey Bruce... I like your observations. Although I do see a lot of "negative things" in Christianity, I basically look, not at doctrines, but at Jesus the Christ himself for an example of how to live and how to share compassion and love. Regarding "sin," that's a tough doctrine in any religion . I see mankind as fallen ( from creative perfection ) and therefore that is the reason we have so much evil, including murder, greed, selfishness, hate, etc. So although sin is indeed a negative thing, it points to the One who wants to help us become good. Thanks again for sharing. John in Florida

[@jonnanderson6489]

"I have found water before, if I keep looking I believe I will find water again."

[@davidjayhalabecki438]

Just imagine being a tribal prince who just lost his father, the Chief, to an inexplicable death. Days later, this prince awakens from a vivid dream of seeing his father back from the dead, telling him to fear not, now it is up to you to lead our people. This is the origin of ghost worship. As time progresses into the future this ghost concept has evolved to a spirit concept and so forth to good and evil spirits, and all kinds of semispirits, monsters, angels, devils, demigods, on and on. Until one day.. The plateau of monotheism has been reached. All along the way, the slow and painful evolution of people and our planet has brought us chapter after chapter of religious bloodshed and debased ritual, the gods have been within our minds and have been conditioning our souls to the extent that we shall one day achieve a dignity that would allow us to bargain with these invisible and intangible spirit forces. Even the most hardened atheist can still behave Godlike. Just as the ordained priest, with all his theological education, can molest the innocent. Animals and humans share the same origin. It is the inner urge to worship and the insatiable quest for wisdom that separates humans from their animal cousins. Fear and ignorance are the great grandparents of religion. However, religious living does soften the rigors and monotony for daily life. People should disagree, life is too dynamic just to be uniform and one sided. It's ok to allow yourself into fits of religious day dreaming, it's natural for the mind to invision a better existence. The brotherhood of human kind is unattainable without the fatherhood of a personal God. Don't let the immensity and magnitude of an infinite universe stagger or discourage you in your childlike belief that YOU BELONG HERE.

[@davidjayhalabecki438]

@Stefano Portoghesi thank you. I agree with your assertion of the subconscious mind being the catalyst for human kinds religious belief response. But may I also add upon the concept of a subconscious mind and self conscious mind, a super conscious mind in which humans "unconsciously" strive towards in order to grow, progress, attain, and enlighten. Have you ever heard of The Urantia Book? I highly recommend it.

[@davidjayhalabecki438]

@Stefano Portoghesi "panphysicism" I'm adding that one to my vocabulary! I do believe in a comic mind, a circuit of a Universal Mind where all creatures that can "think" within the arena subjective content of thought. A super conscious is the same as a self conscious and the concomitant subconscious. It is a the part of the divine that wants to become one with the soul of a human personality and therefore creating a channel where this same creature may become like the Creator. When I say "The Gods" I don't refer to pantheism, like Zeus and the gods of Olympus.. I'm trying to articulate God the father, God the son, and God the spirit. The so- called Holy Trinity.. This concept of three personalities functioning as ONE deity. Such a matchless career is yours for the striving.

[@davidjayhalabecki438]

@Stefano Portoghesi I appreciate your zeal on these matters, are we not conversing about such things with the common denominator of "Closer to Truth?" Your analogy of "mirage" I find poetic and inspiring. I look forward to more CTT episodes where you and I may clash our ideologies on the public comment forum. I can tell you are a far seeing and deep thinking individual.

[@farhadfaisal9410]

So, does this imply that, at the individual level, mainly the ever present factors of anxiety in the face of uncertainty, like, the potential dangers to life, or death --- and a desire to counter them emotionally --- could provide a basis for the origin of religion in human society? And, at a collective level, could it be the tenacious influence of early conditioning on most individuals in a family and/or in public institutions (mostly enjoying the support of the elite) could be behind the persistence or prevalence of specific religions in larger and more organized societies? Are we closer to truth, if not the Truth?

[@johnv5527]

'Most chess players don't pray; most gamblers do.' Cool!

[@LoraxChannel]

Actually most good chess players are russian orthodox, and pray a ton.

[@sacalengua]

Interestingly, gambling is associated with psychopathy and psychopathy is related to a lack of belief in God

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

chess players burn more calories than gamblers because the adrenaline stress is more effective than praying for body-mind transformation

[@xspotbox4400]

I never heard of cave painting displaying religious believes before, would like to see reference to that first because those paintings depict simple, common things stone age artists felt they were important. There were no circles, lines or other forms of geometry simply because they didn't understand any mathematical regularities. Circles are very rare in nature, most of the times look like blobs and ellipsoids. Straight lines are way more common, but only because some physical principles can't avoid them, like shapes of crystals or flat horizon. Infinitely small dots were also a nonsense because they didn't understand balance and tension, things doesn't appear like they have some origin or virtual center. And pictures of animals were drown like silhouettes and shadows, this is how art of drawing was invented, darker areas were perceived as sorts of imprints, like shadow is a color nature use to make things stand out over general reality. How would we even know religious picture, it should show some ritual and symbol. Print of a hand palm is not a symbol, it's an impression, they were tracking foot prints of animals during hunting, so those shapes corresponded with identity of an animal. And first people didn't think they were any special, many think human is just another animal as today, it was more natural to see obvious similarities than small differences. Fact is, you need organized community and rituals to share simple, meaningful ideas, and none of that was possible at early age of humanity. Except one phenomena, those artists were most likely religious animals since they could make clear distinctions from imaginary visions to real events in their minds. Individuals understood thing are not always what they seems to be, so they begin to search and explore the world with their new mind eyes. This was just a beginning, let me put this in another way, what makes some animals domesticated and different from their relatives living in wilds? Dogs and cats doesn't mind sharing living space with humans, you can never live in harmony with wolves or tigers. It like our animal food and pat comic reliefs also became religious.

[@EatPieYes]

We all put our faith in something, probably more things than one would like to admit, because our understanding of ourselves and our surrounding world is by default limited. From this point of view it doesn't matter if you're religious or not because it's part of our being to make simple, shallow explanations of things that are too complicated to understand at the present moment.

[@dakrontu]

The idea of sacrificing one's life for one's god and believing one will be recompensed with eternal bliss has worked its 'charm' as a successful meme across many religions and cultures. There is however a difference between belief (conveyed as one or more memes) and truth. As far as the spread of a meme goes, it matters not one jot whether it is true, all that matters is that it be believed. It is an error to make any assumption about the existence of a god based on the 'benefits' to the society of some religious belief. . In our modern age, we have realised how beliefs spread as memes, it is a natural mechanism that applies to us as a species because he have the mental capacity to provide the environment in which memes can exist, and the communication capacity to spread them. We are therefore able to contemplate, as a species, rather than as a few isolated individuals who occasionally saw the light, the predicament we find ourselves in, as a conveyancing environment for memes that, expressed in words, have no sentience, no agenda, no guarantee of truth, they simply exist because they happen to replicate and spread well. . It is impossible to be free of memes, but at least an awareness can mildly relieves their toxic nature. Except that we have invented a technology, the internet, which has spawned mass social media far more pervasive than oral traditions, printing presses, public libraries, and pulpits, inadvertently ratcheting up the power of memes.

[@LoraxChannel]

Except belief doesn't "spread". In my experience, coming to true belief (an informed conclusion based on thought and experience) is an extremely personal process. External influence is often way more of a hindrance than motivator.

[@jamessmith989]

James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

That's a great scripture verse. Thanks

[@jamessmith989]

@@johnbrzykcy3076 it doesn't get any better than the Word.

[@infinitemonkey917]

@@jamessmith989 Like the "word" about beating slaves, executing someone for picking up sticks, a jealous god and mass genocide ?

[@jamessmith989]

@@infinitemonkey917 I like a jealous God. It's a jealousy related to love. He's also a God of war. Don't let the bastards grind you down...👽👽👽

[@crackedfoundation4324]

Infinite Monkey don’t forget the horrific story in Judges 11 where Jephthah kills his daughter because God apparently gave him a victory and he’s made a ridiculous vow resulting in the sacrifice of his daughter. I see no justification for that in any way.

[@DavidSmith-wp2zb]

@6:21 Jared says, "your argument is stupid" in much nicer terms @7:10 Bob is clearly embarrassed for how stupid he sounds, for once!

[@pbtube58]

Ubiquity of religions is actually a sensible argument, although perhaps not very strong. The idea is that no religion is exactly correct, but it tries to approximate the real God. This is a little bit similar to the statement “All statistical models are wrong, but some are useful.” In order to counter this argument, one needs to show that the human brain is predisposed to certain abilities (for reasons not related to religion), which then make us prone to believing in God. Good arguments in that direction are shown in this video: Why We Believe in Gods - Andy Thomson - American Atheists 09 kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z5qwnqmrbsqAqMk

[@keithrelyea7997]

Give Bob a break. His responsibility is to pose questions. The questions posed are designed to advance the conversation. Considering this, I doubt he felt stupid or embarrassed but pleased with the direct response.

[@jamesnasmith984]

Groups of the same confession don’t wage war against each other?

[@danremenyi1179]

Jared didn't do too well here. What gives religious so much power? The insecurity of the masses? The support of religion has the support of the elite. The human love of mystery? The human need for cohesion? There are many and Jared did not seem to understand what he was being asked.

[@Simon.the.Likeable]

Some duplicitous religious types attempt to obfuscate their religion by claiming a relationship with their deity.

[@LoraxChannel]

Kind of like you obfuscate your point by not stating it? Lol, put this up for irony of the year award.

[@metoo836]

Jared Diamond Denise that the fact the feeling of belonging could trigger hitters, discrimination and well to kill.

[@dorisdoris5563]

Religious belief likely arose through fear and awe of nature: the mountain started to roar and then suddenly spewed out lava that destroyed the village, or most of it. Obviously some unseen entity was angry; and this was its manifestation. So placate it: offer it flowers and food, and then maybe show you really respect it by offering it something you really treasure - like a virgin.perhaps? Most indigenous cultures voted in their leader, gods weren't necessary. But kings were something else. The only way to ensure loyalty was to bring in the old idea of god's will, and the fatalistic idea that everything is the will of god. If someone had the power to force their will on the majority, that was god's will working through them. Then the idea of "the chosen one", the secret rites etc., and the emotional high that ensues from such primitive ideas, took hold and people willingly did terrible things for and in the name of that "high". There are other reasons and factors, but I believe this outline is basic. '

[@philipfarnam6013]

From A Voyage Long and Strange by Tony Horwitz © 2008, here’s well-known minister, Peter Gomes’, response when commenting on our national misapprehension of Thanksgiving, the Pilgrims, and about Plymouth being acknowledged nation-wide (erroneously) as the first American settlement: “Myth is more important than history. History is arbitrary, a collection of facts. Myth we choose, we create, we perpetuate. The story may not be correct but it transcends truth. It’s like religion - beyond facts. Myth trumps fact, always does, always has, always will.” Myth transcends truth and facts? Really? Well, there’s a telling observation upon the American mentality! It’s also interesting that it was spoken by a cleric of acknowledged credibility and high standing. Seems rather an admission, doesn’t it?

[@SC-fk9nc]

Jared Diamond is such an interesting man to learn from, wonderful inquisitive and analytical mind. Great video!

[@mockupguy3577]

Cave Boy: Dad. What are lightings? Dad? Daaad! DAAD!? Cave Dad: it is the mighty bolt hurler. And if you don’t sleep he’ll throw one at you. Boy: Bolturler? Who is that?

[@shenlaoshi7106]

😄😄😄

[@jamessmith989]

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

[@ferdinandkraft857]

“Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel” (1 Chronicles 21:1) Really? Is taking a census so bad?

[@xspotbox4400]

@@ferdinandkraft857 David was just doing his job.

[@redeemedchannel5580]

Ferdinand Kraft yes, because he was testing the word of God who told him his people would be numbered like the stars in heaven. Further, it showed a lack of faith on David’s part because with the power of God, Israel defeated forces much greater in number on many occasions. David’s census was an arrogant, faithless gesture in the eyes of God and put him to the test.

[@ferdinandkraft857]

@@xspotbox4400 Pun intended?

[@ferdinandkraft857]

@@redeemedchannel5580 A perfect God wouldn't be that jealous.

[@oliveludicrous]

The psychology design of conservative voters show someone that is more neurotic and anxious than the average man acording to research. This is why they go back in history looking for answers. The past is always easier and more simple to grasp. For someone with a strong emotional need for control and therefore a psychological need for simplicity Conservatism is the answer. What does this have to do with religion? Most religious people are conservative.

[@unstablepacifist1672]

The ubiquity of drugs and alcohol as mentioned here COULD also be seen as an awareness of and seeking of a transcendent reality beyond the physical world, just saying.

[@hkicgh7277]

Drugs and Alcohol are not ubiquitous, Don't be stupid.

[@unstablepacifist1672]

@@hkicgh7277 did you watch the clip? It was said as an argument against the ubiquity of religion, and the universal belief and seeking out of transcendent reality somehow being an evidence of its validity, man. And drugs and alcohol certainly are ubiquitous especially in that sense.

[@hkicgh7277]

@@unstablepacifist1672 some communities are alcohol absolutely FREE, how is alcohol ubiquitous?

[@williamduffy1227]

@@hkicgh7277 - even in those societies there is alcohol and drug consumption. No human society anywhere on Earth is completely drug free. Individuals, yes; groups of people, yes,,, but no large groups or societies.

[@unstablepacifist1672]

@@hkicgh7277 why should it have to physically be present? Now you're the one being stupid 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@Adhil_parammel]

Because its an opparent condtioning of hell and paradise teached by your parents at younger age

[@hkicgh7277]

yeah, says an Indian trying to sound smart using "fancy" English vocabularies.

[@Adhil_parammel]

@@hkicgh7277 👍😊

[@williamduffy1227]

That's definitely part of it...

[@xspotbox4400]

I have nothing against religious people, at least they are intelligent.

[@xspotbox4400]

@Übermensch Intelligent is OK, they might be wrong, but they show healthy interest to life basics, at least, so they're not completely lost. You should see how rest of the people are like.

[@ChrisDragotta]

(Haven't listened yet) What causes it? FEAR.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

Religion provides a way for people to come together in a way independent of a human power. Use of religion for a central political government is in this sense problematic and even counterproductive. A local political government under or within religion would make sense. Where there is religion, supposed to be central authority without / not under a central political government.

[@xspotbox4400]

Let me expand a little to this idea, why any authority at all? Life is not like that, things are not well defined and unpredictable in their essence, there are no guaranties for anything, it's hard to live knowing how this existence really is. This is what makes couples, families, communities and nations to stick together, we are not supposed to be smart, universe is not design for creatures who can imagine how things are and suffer from delusions of the future. No one can go above the law and law can't go beyond The Word of God.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

@@xspotbox4400 Religion without any political government, central or local, would be better; just a local religious authority with God alone as central authority would be best.

[@xspotbox4400]

@@jamesruscheinski8602 Well, everybody would like to work in God's post office than.

[@lgm363]

Did anyone else feel that he didn't answer the question? I thought the question was how and why religious belief, where did it come from? I thought that was the actual core of the question.

[@breno2024]

I kept thinking how uninsightful Diamond was until I heard him say, "if I was religious", then I understood clearly why he is so uninsightful. Comparing religion, a ubiquitous activity, which is virtuous to drugs/alcohol, an activity that is non-virtuous is absurd.

[@keithrelyea7997]

Both make us happy for awhile and in need of the next "FIX", that was his point.

[@breno2024]

@@keithrelyea7997 First of all, that is about as silly a mischaracterization of religion as one could make. Secondly, that was not his point, at all. He was trying to point out that the ubiquitous nature of religion does not make it a valuable thing anymore than the ubiquitous nature of drugs/alcohol. Hard to believe this guy is considered a thought-leader.

[@Jalcolm1]

The little creature needs to formulate a hypothesis about what kind of creature he is. Clark Kent? Superman? There is clearly a preference for Superman, without much evidence to support. Belief becomes the training wheels that God-struck folks won’t take off the bicycles of their knowing. Still, Bach a very great composer and Dante a great poet.

[@rocio8851]

In order to answer to this question one has to provide justification for the uniformity and diversity of human understanding. Suppose God exists and He reveals to me, how does someone know whether my belief has warrant or not? Atheism is irrational, it cannot provide any ground for reason. How can an Atheist know whether my belief is true or false? Fallacious reasoning!

[@xspotbox4400]

You are right, you have to do science to believe it, but there's just to much of everything artificial around this days.

[@mockupguy3577]

It is usually difficult, often impossible to prove beyond all doubt that something does not exist. There is an infinite amount of imaginable things that could exist and can’t or won’t be disproved. But that is not good grounds for assuming that all of them exists.

[@rocio8851]

Rickard Bergelius At least it's a safe ground for this dude to shut his mouth and say: "I have no idea how religion originates"

[@keithrelyea7997]

Rocio, have you ever spoken to an atheist? Souds like you haven't. Until you understand a lot more than you just put out you may want to be a bit more humble as it says in your book.

[@rocio8851]

@@keithrelyea7997 Yes. I've spoken to atheists. Atheism is irrational.

[@aresmars2003]

So "religion" becomes a first way of extending allegiance beyond family and tribe, convenient to aspiring leaders who want power, while law can take over later and religion becomes less important.

[@aresmars2003]

What did Donald Trump mean when he boasted "I could shoot someone on 5th avenue and not lose any votes"? He meant his followers have transferred their moral trust in him - that if he shot someone, they would trust Trump would only do that for just reasons. They are willing to submit to his judgement as law. They can't imagine Trump would do anything unjust, unless it was to fight against a larger injustice. They can't imagine Trump's justice will cause harm to them because they think of themselves as either innocent or have the same enemies as Trump who are free to be hated.

[@xspotbox4400]

@@aresmars2003 Imagine you're the most powerful man in entire state and you must kill 130 people with armed drones, guided from space. Would you do it, would you give order and watch those people die, just because your position demands this actions from you and regardless to those poor souls who never caused any harm to you or your love ones? Words are cheap this days.

[@bozo5632]

Capacity for religion is a Darwinian adaptation.

[@daniloordanza7012]

This is 1000 percent true.

[@terrymurphy4401]

Not all religions say all other religions are wrong Islam and the Bahai faith do not I was going to read his book The third chimpanzee Im thinking twice and drugs are a side effect of war and political.

[@علي-ش7ث8ب]

*Those who know are not like those who don't*

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

focus on God free will sovereignty for divine central authority unity

[@jonstewart464]

Why so down on drugs? Changing our consciousness and health through botany and chemistry is, on balance a good thing with some risks and harms. I'd much rather a world with coffee, alcohol, cannabis, mushrooms, coca leaves, opium for pain, etc - than without. It's only "unfortunate" when you use them without good judgement.

[@franksu9735]

children create invisible friend , man create religion.

[@desimo147]

Let's look at two options and then the choice of religion becomes obvious: Option 1: claim there is no religion and afterlife, which gets you no power, no money and makes those around you miserable because they fear that their existence is over upon dying. Option 2: claim there is religion and an afterlife, which gets you power, gets you money and those around you are happier believing that they will have eternal happiness upon death. It's really a no-brainer as to why religion is everywhere. It sells the most desirable product you can think of - eternal life.

[@elarakamai]

Super Dave, you do well to state clearly the two great Axiom options defining life. The corollaries you postulate do not follow so clearly. BTW, the term "religion" is an abstraction - a category in the library. To state that "religion" does or does not "do" anything is to reify an abstraction. BTW #2 - When individuals use the term "religion" in comments, and in the American context, they usually have in mind Christianity, and Islam secondarily; the followers of those religions; and the history of the actions of the followers of those religions. Rarely do they directly refer to the revelation of the founders of those religions. And then only in the spirit of contradicting, or "caviling" .

[@keithrelyea7997]

You gotta believe and the are costs associated with that.

[@kennyvr1392]

what causes rel. belief lack of common sense if you ask me

[@soundsandmusic.3689]

Yeah pretty much.

[@MrRamon2004]

Visions from the matter, I have sam of this visions but I all ways search for answer, bace in quantum science, in the old time they don't have science to help understand what they see, that the binging of religion, but even in my case, science will never understand me. In this life and the next one stay in the light.

[@dr.paulj.watson4582]

JD keeps begging the question you are asking and provides shallow responses. I’d be interested in talking to you about these questions.

[@onepcwhiz]

He doesn't answer the question! The pack mentality has an evolutionary advantage. Helped us survive. That's why we "worship" celebs. They act like pack leaders. Religion has this effect as well.

[@Buckzoo2030]

Religion is a need for reasons explained by Diamonds. Religion is powerful because of political alliance. Religion’s Political alliance didn’t happen in China because the imperial China had Confucianism that took the place of religion. Christianity would not have enjoyed its power without Constantine’s endorsement. Christianity was introduced to ancient China but was brutal suppressed. Same religion, very different outcomes with and without political endorsements. Not that China could not benefit from state religion, it just found a better alternative.

[@chrishugs6173]

China has the fastest growing Christian Church than any other country.

[@themedia2781]

Politics perhaps hijacks religion in most cases not the other way round as suggested here.Maybe Its all to to provide moral justification for forcible eviction of people from their home.The promised land seems to have no boundaries ironically just like Hitler assumed to have.The Northern Ireland conflict was enflamed by religious fervour and provided opportunity for many religious leaders to carve out a career in politics.Was The holy Roman Empire a political construct? Was Jesus the ideal role model for a political ideology?

[@Alternativewayforlife]

What make religion ,specifically religion that involves in a know it all God so powerful ? First , everyone believed in that religion ,so if you didn’t believe either you crazy or everyone crazy , obedience thinking mentality, survival strategy very much more important for complex sedentary agricultural societies. Second , everything an elite said is truth , obedience to power , or else ready to get punished . Most Sedentary farmer can’t survie outside their specialization society because 1 lack of knowledge to recognize wild edible, and wild medicinal plants 2. lack of tool making skills from natural sources 3. family is in such society, Common bias by agricultural society hunting gathering society face a lot of famine .

[@borderlands6606]

Knowledge that the self reflective nature of humans was different from animals, must have come very early in human development. Cave painting valorise bestial nature, and the intellectual power of weak humans to overcome the tiger and the boar. Today we have a similar sense that while a computer can out-calculate us, we are more than just a data processing machine running a programme. Religion is the search for an appropriate response to our power of self knowledge.

[@newdawnrising8110]

The primary reason religious belief is so strong is bc revelation shows that what is called God is real. Many ppl experience this higher mind everyday in multiple ways including direct experience. Atheists just can’t see the reality all around them. They simply can’t see past their noses... Faith is not a matter of thought. It’s a matter of direct experience. Or as St. Paul said “ evidence of things not seen”. Not evidence of things not thought. Stop thinking for a moment, be still and know God. Wake up!

[@zanzivar5892]

Hallucinations , day dreaming, imaginations, metaphysics, drugs, Alcohol, natural plants, ..... may fall into that category, anybody can give them the name they want. They may just be PERSONAL experiences, you may choose call them "god" or supernatural, ... REALITY is, you lack evidence to prove whatever it is and it becomes one of 7,5 billion experiences.

[@aldenzane9118]

The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste,preferring to deify error,if error seduce them. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.

[@IDreamOfCrafting]

Patriotism is just another form of religion.

[@holgerjrgensen2166]

Religious belief, - All believe is religious,- two plus two, is equal to four, everything else is religion. 'The religious Instinct', - all living beings, all and any kind of Life-Units, know basically that they exists, however the constellation of their actual consciousness. This is the religious Instinct. One of the most basic fact in the Eternal Life, are the Circuit-Principle, Developing-Circuits, the very first prayer in a circuit, is the dead-scream in the jungle, even it is unconscious, it is a Instinctive Feeling. The primitive people develop this Instinctive Feeling, and the magic religion is born. The early society continue and develop the religion, even when the Intelligence gradually developing, it is still Instinct and Feeling, that keep the religion as a power. At a certain point in the development, the Intelligence had become so developed, that the beings gradually miss their ability to believe, anything at all. Well, politicians, atheists, and scientist still believe in all kind of nonsense, and is just more intelligent believers, in reality doubters. The development goes in three mayor steps, Believers, Doubters, and Knowers. It is evident that Mr. Kuhn is a true Doubter, he think that he knows whole lot of things, he believe in things, and he doubt about a lot of things, his obsession of speculations just move him further away from truth.

[@harkema8090]

What about the brainfunction? Is the brain easy to fool?

[@roksanaskorupa]

What I observe in religious people is the allure of being chosen by the Creator of the whole Universe and being God's favourite, better than others, having a special relation with Someone who seems to possess absolute power over other people (especially the ones whom the religious person feels inferior to).

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

this interviewer apparently thinks science is not a religion! Try reading "The Religion of Technology" by former M.I.T. History of Science Professor David F. Noble

[@Paulus_Brent]

Ohhhhh... what a shallow thinking. Can't they interview people with some deeper insights?

[@onestepaway3232]

Personal Revelation or hearing the word of God of God. It’s shall not murder, not kill. You don’t have believe in a higher power to do evil. Just look at history of all secular societies. They destroyed in the name of power not God

[@jeffreyphillips4182]

And what is God if not power, the ultimate power according to religious beliefs. Islam kills in the name of Allah (God) all the time. The crusades were fought in the name of Christ, killing in the name of...

[@onestepaway3232]

Jeffrey Phillips fought in the name of Christ or the name of their agenda? Who did Jesus kill?

[@xspotbox4400]

@@onestepaway3232 Hitler didn't kill anybody, he couldn't because he was strangely wounded in trenches and obviously a coward because he couldn't face people who he ordered to be killed.

[@jeffreyphillips4182]

@@onestepaway3232 and what secular societies are you referring to? Stalin was a homicidal maniac, Hitler was a catholic and never denied it. Most wars are fought over territory, or belief systems. Your reference to Jesus is a non sequitur because we're talking about those that kill in his name, and other religious icons like yahweh. You can deny it, but people kill in the name of God all the time

[@S3RAVA3LM]

Like today, they're using convid to scare people into a vaccine. Anything good will be used to do evil here. They never were of God.

[@xxxs8309]

Power comes from fear of Death and fear of punishment in afterlife

[@TheUltimateSeeds]

Robert asked: “...What causes religious belief to be so strong?...” It’s because the alternative idea that the unfathomable order of the universe is a product of chance is just too ridiculous to be taken seriously. Now that’s not to suggest that the specific details and dogmas of any particular religion cannot also be ridiculous, no, it’s just that, again, the absurdity of the chance hypothesis is orders of magnitude beyond the absurdity of the design hypothesis.

[@TheUltimateSeeds]

@@Graewulfe And how, exactly, did those "natural laws of physics" come into existence?

[@TheUltimateSeeds]

@@Graewulfe And how does that fit in with the scientific assertion that literally everything (including time itself) came into existence at the moment of the alleged "Big Bang"?

[@xspotbox4400]

@@Graewulfe You don't, nature would never write this things.

[@xspotbox4400]

@@Graewulfe You said, nothing in nature is a product of chance, probably you didn't meant it like your comment is an act of supernatural force.

[@TheUltimateSeeds]

​@@Graewulfe Of course science asserts such a thing (at least in theory). And btw, if you are going to invoke Occam's Razor then you should immediately slice-away the idea of a "multiverse" where it is often implied that you might need as many as 10^500 universes in order for there to exist one that is capable of producing living beings such as ourselves. And furthermore, you don't seem to understand that the word "natural" (minus any intelligent oversight or guidance) is simply a synonym for the word "chance." (Indeed, the term "Mother Nature" is merely the idea of chance dressed up in a kitchen frock.) Keep in mind that we are talking about what it is that "causes" religious belief to be so strong. Well, I suggest that it all boils down to looking at the unthinkable order of our earth/sun system and determining whether it makes more sense to view it as a result of an accidental assemblage of *blind and mindless* quantum phenomena, somehow coming together on their own volition to form an unimaginably stable (and fully-equipped) setting upon which life, mind, and consciousness could then effloresce (emerge) from the fabric of the setting itself... - (or) - ....does it make more sense to think that there might be some sort of intelligence behind it all. In which case, intelligence seems infinitely more plausible than serendipity, which, in turn, answers the question of, again, what "causes" strong religious belief. _______

[@danellwein8679]

What Causes Religious Belief? ... it is the interaction of our DNA when it is being formed in our body .. so basically .. it is a very physical thing that causes religious belief to occur ....

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

just because Jared Diamond's beard is the same hair style as New Guinea therefore he thinks he can invoke New Guinea.

[@S3RAVA3LM]

For me, as a Spiritual man, who does read scripture, I value the teachings, parables, insight & wisdom, acknowledging correlations -- it's not so much a belief, rather it's what I perceive. Not everybody here today is Divine -- few value Truth, righteousness, integrity today. Few are Spiritual Adepts, old souls and gifted. Not many have qualities such as empathy, clairvoyance, character & Divine purpose. I like religion because of what's hidden, not because of what's displayed on surface level... that which is hidden is found within -- enlightenment. The sacred sciences. A religious person who denies science is unworthy. A Scientist who denies the Spiritual is a fool.

[@S3RAVA3LM]

@@badjohnnyisbad the chicken or the egg? Did the material make itself? I think to denie the Spiritual is a great mistake when it's so evident intuitively. Without the Sun we wouldn't even exist here. The Sun to me is a Spiritual force.

[@S3RAVA3LM]

@@badjohnnyisbad zero evidence that the material created itself. That's all science looks at -- the material.

[@earlgibbs7083]

Beliefs are just the byproduct of the stories humankind makes up about what is simply happening in life. What is actually happening is far closer to the truth than any human rhetoric and magical thoughts that go on about it.

[@pawesobieraj6001]

did he talked with real prist ? catholic christian

[@mosheberman7049]

Why are all these talks on religion so non-esoteric?

[@carlosdavidnavarrete3317]

Jared Diamond is a bird physiologist, not an evolutionary psychologist of religion.

[@elarakamai]

Jared Diamond has done work in anthropology, ecology, and geography in addition to his birding profession. Some professionals are blessed with a lot of energy and are multi-talented! I'm sure he has read much in the anthropology of religion and comparative religion. But, as you imply, the depth of his experience in religion proper - say as a divinity student - is perhaps shallow.

[@roqsteady5290]

The survival cost of believing nonsense that has little impact on your daily life is very low. So only marginal benefits are necessary for religion to flourish and not be selected against by natural selection. And there are many conceivable marginal benefits - from comfort though group identity. Exactly what the cocktail of benefits is that actually drives religions to emerge is hardly clear and may differ somewhat in different societies.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

I like your observations. However I do think there is the possibility of "benefits" that are much greater than "marginal."

[@roqsteady5290]

@@johnbrzykcy3076 Yes. I didn't mean that the benefits *had* to be marginal, only that marginal benefits would be enough to drive an evolutionary tendency towards religious belief, given that their is little selective pressure to be rational about things that don't impact on survival. OTOH If your religion involved believing you can fly off of cliffs, then that would be a belief that would likely be rubbed out by natural selection, if put into practice, even if the benefits of such a belief were high. So evolutionary progression is determined by a cost/benefit ratio.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

@@roqsteady5290 Thanks for your clarification.

[@chrisstanford3652]

🤔😇

[@wberckmann]

Simple. God!

[@Beevreeter]

God who? Zeus? Jesus? Allah? or the Punk Unicorn?

[@xspotbox4400]

Governments cause religion, always has and always will.

[@readynowforever3676]

Xspot box 😀Why so cynical, one day there may arise a nation that is completely secular. I’m betting that it’ll be America; after all the founding fathers inserted felicitous precepts in The Constitution that can bring my proverbial prophecy to fruition. Yeah!!!

[@xspotbox4400]

@@readynowforever3676 Yes, no, maybe. We have three champ nations, France, Russia and USA, like 3 revolutions that disturbed eternal natural order of things of matter. America is atheist nation as is, nobody believes, they just saw it on TV and thought it would be cool to be like those ecstatic hippies leading a church. American constitution is kinda special, in a sense their founding fathers managed to formalize settlers mentality into a set of moral guides, much like Hebrew scriptures in Bible describe how their moral values emerged with massive migration from Egypt and not scatter all around the desert by trying to escape slavery. They managed to merge all tribes, defeat all enemies and make sense of their journey in the end, by staying loyal to their ancient African deity that survived and evolved along on their long journey back into imaginary land that existed before stone age, when Africa was still a land part of Eurasian tectonic plate and before Atlantic ocean swallowed Mediterranean basin. Perhaps French way is to soft, Russian is to though, or is it the other way around, don't know. I think much of American cultural inertia come from Brits. Nobody think of them as champs, but i still love them because they' re crazy :) It's just one of those things in history nobody can predict how it will went on, perhaps next revelation could come from India or Brazil, at least this is where all money went this days...

[@ilidiomcbarros]

😭

[@guastomike]

The fear of death and the difficulty and unwillingness of accepting (while we're alive) the non-existence of self after death. This seems obvious to me as a reason for religion. Therefore, the immortal soul and all that follows. More comforting to think about how we'll spend eternity than to admit we disappear like the light when the light switch is turned off.

[@xspotbox4400]

Imagine you could be free, do what you want and have a good time, world would collapse into an anarchy.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

incompetence of human sovereignty

[@jeffreykalb9752]

Jared Diamond: What causes religious belief? God: I do, among those I intend to save from their own wickedness.

[@soundsandmusic.3689]

You mean from him. Base on the story he’s the one killing everybody.

[@WoodyStickman]

Short answer: absence of critical thinking ability.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

Jared... I hope you are not correct, although I tend to agree with your statement with regard to particular religious beliefs.

[@WoodyStickman]

@@johnbrzykcy3076 perhaps not completely absent, but definitely limited. If someone wants to believe in that stuff, fine, but the minute they start denying observable facts and imposing their beliefs on others is the minute they confirm they have some sort of mental or emotional handicap.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

@@WoodyStickman I tend to agree. I don't believe in "denying observable facts" but I do think that some of our awareness of reality points to non-material existence. I just like to listen and share. Imposing beliefs is wrong.

[@sasquatch1554]

Would you say the same about Buddhists? They seem to think much more critically about things and are even taught to question their religion.

[@WoodyStickman]

@@sasquatch1554 no. Buddhism is more like a philosophy that encompasses religious practices; it encourages introspective growth and doesn't condemn non-followers. It also doesn't have ambiguous texts that justify the horrors seen in the Bible and the Quran. To be more specific - I'm talking about the religions that believe an omnipotent, disembodied spirit (or spirits) watches over us, and claims that there is only one path to ascension.

[@crackedfoundation4324]

What causes a religious belief? People who presuppose a belief in a sacred text without doing any research on how that text came about and basing their life on it.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

I pretty much agree with you but I wonder how the early Christian martyrs did "research" that not only influenced their lives but even led to their refusal to acknowledge Caesar as god, resulting in their martyrdom.

[@newdawnrising8110]

It’s sad that some ppl who are so smart are so blind. God is revealed to the humble. One with a clear mind like a child.

[@aminkanji8501]

Pork

[@DSAK55]

Bad luck

[@aminkanji8501]

Animals

[@redeemedchannel5580]

The existence of God best explains reality. The idea that such elegant complexity can emerge out of high energy chaos (that exploded out of nothing) is self contradictory-even absurd.

[@redpillpusher]

I suppose with no critical/logical thinking and an ultimate lack any evidence simply making up an all powerful "god" that's always existed and at some point in non-time and non-space just decided to "create" stuff for it's own amusement. yes that's not "self contradictory" or "absurd" at all ...oh no 🙄🤦🏽‍♂️

[@jeffamos9854]

Yes Covid-19 is elegant. Cancer is elegant. Our brains cherry pick what we like to see as elegant. Science best explains reality. Not your imaginary friend.

[@redeemedchannel5580]

Jeff Amos there is intelligent evil in the world as well. “Science” is a man-made tool of measurement. That’s it. It is every bit as objective/biased as those conducting the research. That’s why it is so easily politicized. “Science” now tells us there are 53 different genders, case in point.

[@jeffamos9854]

Redeemed Channel . Your straw man argument about gender is a fallacy. Yes science is a tool. The scientific method is the best method to avoid bias in understanding reality. Religion is the worst method to avoid bias

[@onestepaway3232]

Only fools don’t believe in God. That is what the Bible calls these people. Fools

[@magicsinglez]

This is nonsense.

[@les2997]

Good pointless babble

[@martinmillar7998]

Indoctrination