Jayne, ML7, SVB & Awkward: The Second Great Support (And Overwatch) Debate

[@SVBOW]

Sorry that this podcast strayed very far from 'The Great *Support* Debate*' (which is why I added the 'And Overwatch' part) but I really enjoyed the larger discussions about Overwatch in general. I think that while it can be nice to focus on the details of specific heroes, it's often the larger decisions like how the game is balanced, what mechanics are in place & how the game facilitates certain metas/playstyles that really define how the game looks and feels. Plus, I think we found the 3 nicest support players who didn't really have many problems with the support balance! So hopefully you guys enjoyed it regardless because I and the guests enjoyed getting to talk like this :)

[@JIP214]

I didn't mind the lack of support discussion tbh

[@mihaeltodorov9899]

"the great overwatch lore debate" happening any time soon?

[@tedtrench8487]

@@mihaeltodorov9899 That would be a great 15 min of content.

[@mihaeltodorov9899]

@@tedtrench8487 lets debate then

[@onlyme9645]

@Abhinav Banerjee I personally tought that one was fine but this is way way better, like the recent tank debate. Players in this have way better vision of the game and understand the game just so much better, Jayne previous OWL support speciaized coach, Awkward top level Contenders player and nowadays holds EU Rank 1, mL7 one of if not the best non contenders player.

[@Awkward2]

Thanks for having me, it has been a great discussion. I hope Overwatch will step up in the near future!

[@petrnovak6879]

I like trains

[@LL-ht5yc]

​@@petrnovak6879so does your girl

[@juris4564]

ML7 has a point about content creators’ impact on community perspective on a game. Like I hear people complain about the game who are in low SR and I just think “why?” Pros and high level players are unhappy because of the meta and lack of content. Meta doesn’t apply to low SR people. Meta doesn’t even apply until masters, and there it’s not even mandatory. I think they take these cues from high SR content creators that they’re supposed to be upset with the game when in reality, if they didn’t pay attention to content creators, they would probably just log in and have fun. They’d play what they want to play and enjoy it. It cuts both ways, but I think negativity from content creators has a much higher impact on community hype than people give it credit for.

[@KingOfNebbishes]

Meta applies because the solutions to high rank boredom affect heroes at all ranks. Making Orisa less needed for double shield absolutely dumpstered her pick rate in any rank that isn't GM, for one example.

[@WolfRites]

I think this is also the reason why Jeff a while ago talked about win percentages for heroes that wasn't meta. I am/was a mid master (i quit playing ranked because of time), and never cared about meta. I knew if I played the heroes I am good at it would increase my chances of winning in the long run. Meta doesn't matter until high GM, but even in masters you get people wanting to play the meta, and the simple truth is, most people don't get WHY the heroes/comps are meta. Double shield isn't meta because Orisa/Sig are broken, but because of Baptiste and Brig. And playing double shield isn't going to do much, if you don't play those healers, or your dps don't play in that shield stack anyway. If you're not playing the comp as its meant to, the meta comp is trash. But if you only listen to top500 streamers/pros, you end up with the perception that all the heroes except the meta, are trash.

[@KingOfNebbishes]

@Abhinav Banerjee I'm afraid to play her because my winrate with her in high Silver-low Gold plummeted to 38%. The nerfs make a difference both because you're less powerful AND the enemy perceives you to be easier to bully, so they do, and a team that doesn't trust Orisa doesn't back them up and they get murdered.

[@KingOfNebbishes]

@Abhinav Banerjee My total win rate in comp with Orisa is 51%, but my last two seasons were 35% and 38%. I didn't change, but something sure did, and it wasn't for the better. Glad you're doing okay, but I'm not going back to Comp to be in Rein jail forever.

[@rngsmiles3979]

Another thing about metas in low ranks compared to high ranks is the playstyle. Some heros play completely differently in their respective ranks. Like for example a low rank Doomfist won't be punished for inting since the opposing team can't coordinate a easy counter. Because of that certainly playstyle develop that only really work in lower ranks and players get stuck because of it.

[@Breeceboy]

Please never stop making these SVB. Your audience may be small, but it will explode when OW2 comes out, and those of us that do watch your content can't get enough. You do the best long open discussions about overwatch in the world. Keep it up 🙏

[@undeny]

WOW what a panel for this one!! Thanks for making these SVB, you are honestly spoiling a lot of us with godly content

[@undeny]

@Abhinav Banerjee Yea definitely enjoying all of these ''episodes'' for each recurring debate. I'm glad we got a second as grateful as I am that we had the first, here's to the third and onwards!

[@undeny]

@Abhinav Banerjee Regarding the panels to each their own I suppose but these folks however have been of more significance over the course of the game. Especially considering supports having ML7, Jayne and someone I've followed religiously of late in Awkward who plays consistently at such a high level really brings that next level of perspective into topic imo. Though we did stray a bit deeper into auxiliary discussions a bit so I guess I do see your point haha! But I certainly have as I cannot stress enough, enjoyed all of these podcasts quite thoroughly!

[@austinfigueroa4851]

It doesn’t surprise me at all that ML7 is such a thoughtful guy.

[@ryuuM21]

My neck already hurts from nodding 10 mins into the video.

[@mathijnverkerk2420]

This made me laugh, thanks!

[@CommanderSammer]

@Abhinav Banerjee cute?

[@Apsilon778]

At this point in OW’s life you need a tome sized manual that comes with the game with all the changes that’ve been made. Oh and Jeff should be part of the tutorial not Athena!

[@arnusdarnus4944]

would that mean you also want them to record Jeff to shout out multikills?

[@partobakhtiary7954]

@@arnusdarnus4944 Y E S

[@handsoaphandsoap]

Hey guys, Jeff from the Overwatch team here Forreal though, they don’t have to explain every single thing in the game, some things will just sink in through osmosis by playing the game, but there needs to be a few things better explained or at least defined in-game. For example, I bet if a support would ask for peeling at least half their teammates wouldn’t know what that even means in an average ranked game.

[@novadzire687]

@@handsoaphandsoap when I read the comment I thought the exact same thing

[@alexmaganda5827]

not really they rarely patch anything compared to league lol and theres not even that many heroes out for being so long out at this point

[@livefreeprintguns]

1:47:12 I *love* Awkward's take on this. As a 40 year old casual who hasn't loved a game like Overwatch since I was playing quake3arena on dial-up, I wouldn't even *bat an eye* at throwing $10 to have the MVP jjonak skin on my other account. I was able to get that Zen skin on my main, but when I made my alt account, the ability to get that skin will never again be realized. For $10, you'd best believe I'd jump at that opportunity. And like he said, *everyone wins.*

[@MasterMemo]

I wish there was more discussion in the difference between "casual" and "unskilled". Awkward raised the point about Moira being casual, but I think she's just low mechanically skilled. Same with Reinhardt, to a degree. Rein is pretty simple mechanically, but you need to be really good with him to get great value. Moira has a pretty low skill ceiling, honestly, but you can definitely tell the difference between someone who can maximize Moira versus someone who just does some good. Like, there are people who are committed players that aren't that good, and casual players who are badass. Like, if you play a ton of CS and Valorant, you're gonna be able to do work with Soldier and McCree, even if you only play OW casually.

[@Huqe]

Moira is also way less about positioning than Ana, Zen and Baptiste which is an important skill in Overwatch But I think that's fine, I actually like the current Moira where your resource management is super important

[@dondavi5798]

For ML7's point near the end of "who should do the work"section, Seagull is a perfect example. Seagull brought a lot of hype and viewers to the game year after year. Then things went south between the league aspect of it and the balancing aspect of it, he slowly got dis enchanted with the game and started searching for other content that would garner the same views. The thing is people were interested in Seagull, saw he was having fun and started playing Overwatch. No amount of Corporate initiation is going to get that attention on it's own. The content creators with their skill and personalities are what creates the new group of new players. The game itself in its incentives, or lack there of, will be what keeps them there.

[@nicholasemmendorfer8748]

At 1:01:03. Jayne says something I disagree with massively here. His argument: Adding in-game help will not affect the bell curve of skill. People will always need to learn themselves to improve. Ignoring the possibility that the bell curve is artificially forced that way automatically by the competitive system. I think it’s always a net good to increase the ability for your casual player base to obtain knowledge. Have you ever played during a free weekend of Overwatch? It’s always chaos because even though people are skilled at FPS Overwatch has very specific knowledge required. The problem with most games is gatekeeping, where a small proportion of the player-base feels they obtained skill the “right” way instead of increasing player skill and knowledge across the board. Teaching others not only makes you better but makes the game more fun and more efficient for EVERYONE. Also not to mention that if the gap between player skill in ranked is narrower, that means when pro players leave owl then you’ll have a stock of skilled players to replace them from. Not to mention. The casual experience would get 10 times better as well with in game tutorials. Question for everyone. What’s more frustrating Losing a team fight because the other team is as good as you and played strategically better? Or Losing a fight because your team didn’ understand shields block healing even in transcendence. That Moira can heal slightly more out of coalescence in a burst. That standing on the point in assault increases respawn time for the opponent. The big one, that moving through a choke quickly to engage in a fight is often more successful than poking. All these things could be resolved by in game tutorials that the devs could contract out to people like SVB and other coaches

Yea it just feels like Jayne is disagreeing purely to be contrary

[@nicholasemmendorfer8748]

@ which is okay, I think thoughtful discussion is good. I just feel like the conversation is over-represented by high level players who feel they are the reason the game is popular and not because the devs made extremely likable characters and accessible fun gameplay loops

[@ten7554]

Jayne: to move this from a polite podcast I will actually disagree with some of the things ML7 is saying No Jayne, that's just a normal discussion actually lmao

[@handsoaphandsoap]

On Jayne’s point with slow console patches, I believe about a year ago Blizzard made a deal with at least Sony, not sure if the deal extended to Microsoft, that they would be allowed to patch their game more frequently than other console games. The issue stemmed mostly from Sony’s and Microsoft’s policies to vet content before it could get an official release which significantly slows down balance patches for online games on console.

[@FriezaReturns00001]

No that's incorrect, its actually the Microsoft Technical Certification Process which essentially means a corporate executive from either platform produces is going to come over to your studio and review the patches put on xyz game to make sure they don't break the platform itself. It's for two weeks, the reason the general masses don't know about this is because it comes apart of your gaming dev kits found on forums -- its the why console patches come sometimes months late in advance.

[@SILK97]

My 3 big issues with unique hero picks is that the tank/ support roles have so few options that making the picks exclusive really limits flexibility. It feels like a lotta matches could be decided before the heroes even leave spawn. Also, how would hero swapping work? My 2nd is how will it work logistically w/ a team of 6 players that just met each other seconds ago. Feels like it's inviting a lot of frustration. 3rd, the game would just be a bit too long for my taste. B/w waiting in queue, teams deliberating heroes to make exclusive, actually going through the process of choosing the exclusive heroes, then selecting your heroes, then waiting for the defense to set up, a competitive match would just take too long for me.

[@parkermaybe9018]

I agree, I feel like sometimes we as a community talk a lot about things like this as if it’s the only thing that could “save the game,” but there’s also a lot of issues that come up because of those “fixes.” This added step would really only work in OWL imo, where it could be nice since it’s a more organized team, but it just seems like it wouldn’t actually solve balance issues. At best, it would just make certain characters impossible to play such as Brigitte or Moira. I would rather the balance team make more agressive changes when the game needs a shift, and letting the community shift with it, even if it might be a bit slower.

[@Enkeh]

What if they added a poll on if you like experimental changes after a couple games played?

[@Jabbathefrukt]

The results would have to be anonymous so that the community doesn't get overly angry when a change doesn't do what the poll showed. And I feel the biggest issue with polls is that buffs to heroes that a lot of people play would always get a lot of votes, and nerfs to less popular heroes would be guaranteed.

[@Jabbathefrukt]

@@hobonolen2402 the polls wouldn't be vs each other, or am I understanding it wrong. How I thought it'd work is just a button with, I like or dislike a change. But the changes/polls are completely independent from eachother.

[@thadavid]

People would always down vote buffs to Heroes they don't like that counter their fave heroes and Vice Versa

[@Enkeh]

To be clear, I'm not saying that any in-game poll wouldn't be incredibly biased. I just think it could be a cool stat for devs to get feedback from more players

[@reynauldwhistles2338]

@@hobonolen2402 over 60 or 70% of overwatch players only play damage characters exclusively, if you give them the power to delete tanks and supports they will do it (supports already get nerfed so much that its even a meme at this point) and theres so few tank players that again its kind of a meme (and tank is known for being the less "fun" role), but tanks ans supports are what make overwatch unique this is a team game but those 60 70% of players just want to make ow a call of duty clone or apex 2.

[@andrewkong3154]

Hell yea! Overwatch educational content to keep me sane for 2020! Thanks for organizing SVB!

[@Chaz-Support]

This was an interesting listen but they only talk about supports right at the start and end of the video by the way.

[@Chaz-Support]

@Abhinav Banerjee I agree but supports aren’t in that bad a spot right now anyway to be fair so not that much to say. They could have discussed a brief rework or something at least tho

[@kingj282]

People acting like this 2hrs is a failure, smh. It's worth it just to hear popular content creators talking about their perspective. I agree with @Charles that supports are doing fine rn.

[@alexmaganda5827]

@@Chaz-Support what bothers me is the lack of supports 7 at this point is just poor for a game like overwatch look at league for example

[@Real_MisterSir]

In relation to tournaments, I believe that a very valuable point that wasn't raised, is the ability to perform on a team, without being on pro/semi pro level. The core of Overwatch is that it is an extremely team-oriented experience, but 90% of the player base has absolutely zero ways of every playing on a real team. It's always gonna be a set of 6 randoms every single game, and when you try to duo/trio your matchups just get harder, and you still have half a team of randoms doing their own thing. I think that the lack of non-pro tournaments and incitement to play on established teams, is one of the most major oversights throughout Overwatch's entire existence. How often do we not see gold players (as an example) complaina bout their teams, possibly desiring for a world where they would play and practice with the same 5 team mates every match, and collectively grow in both individual skill and teamplay execution? That is how Overwatch is optimally designed to be played, but for 90% of the player base, that's a dream world that they will never even get close to experiencing. So in other words, the core element that makes Overwatch stand out from every other videogame ever made, is an element unobtainable by almost the entire playerbase. You can compare it to any physical sport, where you join your local team and you play and practice alongside the same team members, and you play against other teams casually and in tournaments. These matches and tournaments are not all gonna be the Champions league, but they still offer a scalable experience relative your the level of your team. This would also eliminate the idea of established metas, because each team would have individual strengths and weaknesses that mean they all have to define their own unique meta that works well with the players they have at their disposal. Not every team will have dps players that excell at all the core heroes that are used by pros, and that means certain pro comps aren't gonna be viable, so they have to innovate their own strategies and comps, and if they get success at their level, perhaps their innovation spreads to other teams of comparable skill, maybe they further evolve them and slowly things spread from among the casual players, instead of solely trickling down from the pro scene. If Blizzard were more welcome of casual tournaments and leagues, even nationwide leagues and smaller local leagues, this world could become a reality. I don't know if their desire to control tournaments is hindering them from expanding down the ranked societies of lower skill levels, but it is none the less a major oversight not to cater to this part of the Overwatch community, that want to experience the pro style of playing, but are not allowed access.

[@tiggle5485]

Am I just hearing things or are ML7 and Jayne’s mics quieter than the others?

[@GeorgeLucas1138]

I can’t even hear ML7

[@MindfulGamer]

I'm team ML7 here. I follow his mindset

[@BartoeFour]

I am so thankful to see ML7 there. Thank you SVB for getting so many good people together all the time!

[@xaniso6955]

It's fascinating to listen to knowledgeable people talk about things they are arguably top experts on. There is a reason why the Romans created the Senatus (Senate) to obtain the discussed opinions of the Senex, or wise and/or more experienced members of a group. A single person's monologue will rarely reach the depths that a discussion will dive into.

[@undeny]

1:01:00 I think Jayne missed the actual type of ''guide'' that SVB was referring in that it would still be a better preliminary introduction than what exists but such a thing would never really impact actual mastery. That can always only come with practical application. Its true that a game would want you to gain the bulk of the proficiency by actually playing it but that isn't impacted by just a better introduction for new players.

[@magnaretonsor]

Great video! Awesome to hear their opinions! On a different note: Does the video seem to be relatively quiet to anyone else? I had to turn up the volume of my headphones quite a bit.

[@routetweentyseven]

We need an update on that!!!

[@Joshua-Stacy]

the one dislike is from eskay cause jayne took her lucio spot

[@TeaHauss]

Here's some ideas: Have Brig's shield bash only be available when her shield is at least 80% (aka 200). [80% in case her shield health changes in the future.] I love Brig, I think she's great. She's a great Secret Service for her fellow support. That said, I have a ton more fun getting Ana's sleep dart on someone, simply because its a skill shot projectile and it allows DPS outplay. In comparison, Brig's bash starts with her shield up (blocking damage) and then stuns them (removing outplay). With this change, if a Brig turns around in response to a flank and her shield gets damaged, there is potential for her bash to be disabled before the duel, making DPS outplay possible. Also, I find there's almost no reason to play Lucio since Brig and Bap. Brig's kit is similar (whip shot to soundwave; inspire to crossfade healing), but her ult bypassing enemy shields makes her strictly better and easier to play than Lucio. If I pick Lucio, it's because I trust my other support to heal the team because mine are pitiful to none (aka on speed). With Bap, Regen Burst is basically Lucio Amp and his heals/damage are way better, with decent mobility to match the wall ride. I think Bap's kit is fine (other than he does a little too much damage), it's just that both Brig and Bap step on Lucio's abilities. Tldr, I'd like to pick Lucio without throwing/being a reddit Lucio by tweaking Brig's stun and ult to be more skillful (aka outplayable), and maybe a slight boost to his healing to compete against Bap's kit.

[@davidrich27]

80%? Bash would be deleted then. It might as well not be in the game.

[@libertyprime9307]

That would feel like shit if her Bash was only available at a certain shield health. Brig is far too specialized. Lucio was a great example of a Support who can protect a backline. It's a thing he can do, it's not his entire identity.

Why don't they make shield bash deal self damage to the shield? Wanna bash the Genji? Okay, fine. But if you hit him: that's 50HP off your shield

[@jacobbaartz7710]

1:55:14 Imo Nerf nitpicking: Instead increase the HP to 240 BUT its health decays at 30hp/s thus lasting a max of 8 seconds. However this gives value to any damage it sustains as it will reduce the overall uptime. It also decreases the kill time for low dps characters which generally have the biggest problem with it, while mostly maintaining the shots required for higher dps. It also gives utility to splash damage effects, especially ashe's dynamite when imo is placed around corners.

[@haku4841]

I think when they where arguing about how comps have gotten a bit stale I think it’s due to the lack of characters being added... I have no doubt that when overwatch 2 is released that more than one comp will be created.

[@glitchlagrage788]

I always love your Great Debates and I loved this one! But not gonna lie was really disappointed to not hear as much about Supports like the last Great Support Debate was! It was awesome hearing these great overwatch minds talking about the status and overall overwatch content....but was really looking forward to hearing from these great Support Minds especially ML7 And Awkward. Will always support you and these mind opening Great Debates tho but just a bit of criticism about the way the discussion went. Stay on that grind tho SVB!

[@pachanas703]

Great stuff, but the conversation went from a support debate to a much more macro-level community and game health debate in the second half. I'd be up for a more focused discussion itinerary or splitting stuff up into separate videos when this type of thing happens. Keep 'em coming regardless!

[@reynauldwhistles2338]

Read the full title

[@SuaBitSiyeonsLip]

AT SVB: the pick and ban system is already used by the "overwatch clone" Paladins and it works very well and make unique team compositions so something like that could work, although paladins does have more characters, but even so it worked well when they had only 30 champions as well. I have issues with the ethical side of things if overwatch does implement that system. some of my favorite unique interactions and compatible heros: 1.obey alliance using rein winston to beat british hurricane 2. chengdu or guangzhou(correct me if i am wrong) use of ball displacement and genji ult 3. sombra ult to prohibit ability usage with dva bomb

[@iainvos5534]

When it comes to improving the player base I think it needs to come from said player base. Having played a lot of Final Fantasy 14 I have experienced a really big difference in the player base. As for freely available replay codes from high SR games I don't think that will work, mostly because the skill gaps are far too far apart for say a Gold player and a GM player. But while playing Final Fantasy 14 I have had several instances where I was completely out of my depth, but instead of shitting all over me, or calling me a thrower there were a whole lot of players that gave me advice and pointers. When getting into raid content I was able to get into contact with players that ran very high end content, basically the equivalent of a GM in Overwatch, and instead of sending me their clips, which would be of little use to me because I am nowhere near their level of mastery of the jobs they play, they explained certain synergy between jobs to me, and gave me a practical understanding to become better than I was. Final Fantasy 14 also has something called a mentor system. Where new players and returning players are put in a chat window with so called mentors, people that are in good standing when it comes to behaviour and that have reached a certain level. Said mentors even have a separate queue for running dungeons with new and returning players. Something of the sort, that would need to be rewarded somehow, seems to me like a far better solution. The more experienced player base helping the less experienced player base to become better than they were instead of the less experienced players watching the top 1% to try and get better.

[@nalla1782]

Watching his streams, I've always felt like ML7 has some really interesting takes about OW, but he's not a very argumentative guy. It was nice to see him really engaging in a debate about this stuff.

[@Vastspartan]

He was a lawyer at one point

[@light6713]

@@Vastspartan don’t think he actually practiced it he did graduate with the degree but his stream blew up before he graduated so now he streams full time

[@Towtrucc]

1:44:00 thats super interesting from ML7, and its really thought provoking. Do we constantly complain and beg for the things we want, or do we love what we have and hope they will see that as encouragement to keep adding content? In the case of activision, I don't think either matters aside from what is a sure deal to make them more money. Referencing CoD cold war, the entire youtube/twitch community is pissed off and loud about the strict skill based matchmaking and want it toned down/removed. However, activision wont do this because it makes them more money from the new players who stick around because they perform decently. Will complaining to them fix the matchmaking, or will sitting back and making the best of it fix the matchmaking? What could make them decide to spend money/time adding these things to the game that don't prove that they will immediately see profit from? This all just makes me kinda thankful of how overwatch currently is, flaws and all, its probably the best activision product we will ever get. Hurts me to say I believe they will find a way to fuck up OW2, despite what blizzard wants to do. Already safe to assume we are gonna buy OW2 for $60, and then pay $10 every 2-3 months for the battlepass if we want unique cosmetics. OW1, I spent $40 for the game once 4/5 years ago, and thats it.

[@thewolfenknight37]

Blizzard could do a better job at conveying what does damage and how much. I didn't that genji's dash did damage and it reset after a kill until I watched a genji guide on youtube. Why not they copy fantasy strike and make netflix style series that teach the basics of a character

[@jakobmangold4483]

Can we please get back to the idea of announcer packs? Just imagine getting a 6k on Reaper, and ml7 screaming "WHAT A MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!"

[@kludriel2157]

This was my favorite debate! Ty all for being there!

[@nicholasemmendorfer8748]

It got negative at the end there. For me, I love the characters, I love the way the game plays. I will play it forever.

[@nicholasemmendorfer8748]

@ I expect fans of the game to be understanding. We’re in a global pandemic where countless companies are slashing budgets and workforce. Blizz execs expect team 4 to simultaneously balance and maintain a complex multiplayer while creating a sequel. If you compare this to other games, not only do the devs listen way more than competitors, but the community doesn’t appreciate this. Examples Rdr2: Rockstars multiplayer has been broken since launch with very little updates and feedback Battlefront: had to be redesigned due to boycotts because of micro transactions There’s so many more You could keep this game unchanged for the next few years and I would still play it because it’s so polished and well designed.

[@goIdy]

As a lucio main in high sr I hate being forced to swap zen or mercy every game but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do

[@Splorguss]

I think this is why I more excited for a new support or tank because they can change the meta far more than dps.

[@Vastspartan]

The tanks have the most impact in the game over any other role

[@alerightone]

All good with these, but HEAR ME OUT! How about you start make these ''debates'' with Platinum and Diamond players and discuss the same things. I know there will be some pepega takes, but I'm sure there will be some useful feedback as well. Plus, there's no need for it to be as long, it can be between 30 minutes and an hour.

[@kingj282]

Big names garner bigger views. SVB is trying to grow his platform/channel

[@nochkeiner836]

About the discussion of rank 1. I would like to know how many offers from conternders or even OWL Teams ML7 already got.

[@rangodash]

(Comment response) don’t think one tricks are at all an issue. I think WAY too often, people counterpick like cowards as opposed to learning bad matchups, and how to counterplay bad matchups. All I see in this game is counterpicking and being meta slaves, even in ranked which is just for fun! Example, I was done with this game until hammond came out, and have one tricked him ever since. I have to earn the respect of the counterpick cowards who complain about me playing him into all his rough matchups. In fighting games, there’s always some optimization that can be worked on, but in this game, it seems like people just don’t want to put in the work and thinking

[@imbigbilly1352]

I feel like this went from being a support debate to an Overwatch in general debate

[@TheApxche]

overwatch should just take the paladins approach since overwatch is so much more polished and has the money to actually support their game

[@calmguru1274]

You know why not have ultimate charge carry over when you change heroes? Maybe have a conversion rate so it's not broken but that would lessen the damage of switching heroes mid match

[@emmas1366]

I always thought this would be really cool. I think they would have to make it lose like 20% so you can't just swap and immediately have a broken ult but otherwise it'd be really interesting.

[@emmas1366]

or even just have ult charge save per hero, so if you swap back you get the charge back

[@lohart4514]

Battle mercy has been BIG the last few days, at least in my games.

[@reynauldwhistles2338]

@Zombi I wont mind if my mercy teamate ults and kill two squishies, it would be an easy clean up after the valk.

[@lohart4514]

@Zombi I mean I play mercy a lot, she’s my main now and I will go “battle” mercy if I need to. For instance I once got 18 kills as mercy, I still got 6k healing but my tanks were taking up space and my dps...I dunno what they were doing tbh. However that is a big one off, I normally aim for damage boosting and heals before taking my pistol out. I don’t like the mercy players who only use their pistol (I avoided three as team mates in the last week and a half). However it is kind of effective because no one expects it. I’m lucky so when I play I’m with my friends and we make a team so we punish it heavily if a mercy is out of position. But when I’m going solo the amount of times a mercy has been able to just scatter my team is ridiculous. Ngl I need to admit If someone takes mercy and she won’t heal, if I’m ana and she’s getting picks I will give her nano when she has ult because I wanna work with what I’ve got. But I agree fir the most part, go bap if you wanna dps or moira (or better yet go dps 😂).

[@Stewy612]

SVB, while i agree with some comments that this strayed away from the support convo....this had some serious heavy hitters in it who can talk about the game. this was great content and i seriously hope the blizzard devs watched this if only to gain some perspective. This was a great video for the OW community. Thanks. Keep it up brother!

[@superphycof]

The ELO system mathematically works around the idea of the probability of victory vs a given opponent. As you approach the top of the ladder, every other player is below you, thus the ELO system determines that you are the overdog and that your win should be expected, thus you win fewer points, but if you lose, it is counted as an upset, thus you lose more ELO points. I dont know the exact maths but the ELO system cant really give a player the max ELO rating as that would mean a 100% win probability over the min ELO rated player. I think the system does account for fluke wins and loses. Essentially, the ELO system assumes that there is no logical reason that the min ELO play couldn't win somehow, however improbable it is.

[@justind5262]

Jayne saying that the paid game devs should be the only ones talking about balance while these are the devs that released brig...

[@tomKATT92]

God I love these videos! In fact, I love all your content, keep it up! :D

[@MikePSU]

Listening with headphones. Why is this so damn quiet? Max volume and its just loud enough to hear

[@TheWackU]

I would still love to see a basic tutorial for each hero in the game. I get what Jayne is saying about raising the standard entry level of the game where everyone improves, but isn’t that what we want? Would also make a counter argument that there’s plenty of casual game modes like arcade, QP, and PVE when OW2 comes out for the players, who feel intimidated about entering comp. OW has always had a larger casual audience, but I think it’s time to raise the standard of competitive. DOTA has the problem of getting new players, but I feel like that’s most games after a few years. Problem with OW is players that keep leaving because a multitude of reasons, but one of them is teammates can just be so dumb and don’t understand basic principles. It becomes frustrating because OW is so teammate reliant. No matter what, if I’m playing Genji I can’t heal or take space as well as a tank. The team aspect of OW is the greatest and the worst thing about the game. When everything is going great it feels amazing, when there’s just one person feeding it throws off the entire balance of the team. My wish list for tutorials: - Beginner level tutorial for every hero - Introduction to a team fight - Description on each game mode - Explaining the payload - Defining the support role - Defining the damage role - Defining the tank role - Awareness gathering (sound queues, cool down tracking, enemy position tracking, etc) Would just like to add that tutorials don’t guarantee a player gets better. At the end of the day, the player still has to learn, grind, and apply the knowledge. It’s just making it in client for the ease of players. I guess that will take a hit to content creators, but maybe they’ll be able to make content about more advanced guides. Idk. Maybe if you have more players that understand the game better they’ll want to become more competitive. More competitive join tournaments (if it comes OW2). Then maybe those players will watch more OWL. Haha just wishful thinking, probably won’t happen but a man can dream.

[@Gilbot9000]

This was fantastic, even with the wandering topic.

[@Taliyon]

I've long been a proponent for talent trees. For individuality.

[@neilsasaki2094]

Tournaments with various rules (especially in OWL off season) would be great for content and showing crazy compositions.

[@boredlife4]

Every game like this will have a meta. The balancing team perspective should be lets mix it up to keep the meta fun and then balance accordingly so each new meta is not ridiculously over powered. You can not keep characters the same all the time otherwise the meta will stay the same and get stale. The only time it might change is it they introduce a new character which makes a different composition more optimal.

[@thefootballpunnedit]

I'm a gold/plat pleb but I would LOVE tournaments... you should have a basic skin builder, essentially you pick a primary, secondary colours and can make minute adaptions to the skin like rein had 3 slightly different helmets and junkrat has 3 different peg legs... they would look 95% similar but enough choice to feel you have a cool identity not default skins... I would legit put in 4x the hours for those changes.

[@jacobbaartz7710]

36:15 seems like the regeneration of Orissas barrier every 8 seconds is the problem. What if it was no longer on a cooldown, but instead placeable and retractable like Sigma's but doing so chipped of some portion of health - with high HP but low regeneration rate while not deployed. This could change double shield as you have to be decisive before your resources run out instead of picking a spot on the map and effectively creating a wall; which I think is why double barrier is the only map independant tank line-up.

[@safarfsaf]

Yeah and if she had a big hammer instead of her gun she would be one step away from a real good hero. Kapp

[@jacobbaartz7710]

@Abhinav Banerjee I did say it would have higher HP. The idea was so she has to be proactive before her resources run out

[@jacobbaartz7710]

@Abhinav Banerjee I'm not saying the barrier can't be destroyed. I was aiming for a situation where a defence Orissa comp can't endlessly refresh a barrier and spam, all while burning attacker time. With the consequence of getting spammed out of her resources she would need to play more proactively, she may need to take more risks. An attack orissa would also have more freedom with when they reposition, and with a higher HP barrier, would you still require two? Maybe to deny an angle, maybe it wouldn't change anything. I'm not saying Orissa is op or anything, I'm just brainstorming how to make her independent of Sigma, and less boring to play and/or play against with more risks.

[@mexicanmanjohn]

The devs wont do crazy changes because everything they do in ow1 has to be coded into ow2 which is a different engine. They are just tweeking numbers so the meta doesnt feel stale but all it does it make us have to relearn how to play a hero. We need more heros, maps, and gamemodes.

[@soyunbonus]

Another fantastic podcast! I hope Blizzard buckles up their pants and delivers a stunning Overwatch 2. Fingers crossed! Alsooooo... please fix the loop of the background video :)

[@thijmstickman8349]

Why did you have to mention the background video!!!

[@velxus]

I CANT UNSEE IT

[@tomKATT92]

IDKif this is a good shout, but OW should have 'Loadouts' of some sort. Like say they add 1/2 new abilities per hero, then you can choose a more defined role style and you can play characters differently

[@jbark678]

Bell-curves emerge for all population metrics if you control for confounding variables, but we don't avoid teaching kids to read just because their reading ability will fall on a bell curve. Also, I seriously doubt that OW's playerbase falls on a normal distribution.

[@GraphiteBlimp27]

Bro all I wanna say about balance is that if they released a Samito balance patch on experimental I’d take a week off of work to do 16 hour gaming sessions...

[@GraphiteBlimp27]

Also generally that all the people in the community I have been convinced are smart usually agree on the general way to balance OW...

I would unironically really enjoy them giving high ranked players like Samito, Jake etc the ability to create their own experimental patch. So we play the most fun and balanced version of Overwatch in their eyes and they get full freedom to create that

[@blubbernuggets]

Overwatch can get a better appeal to a competitive audience by doing a few things and these are in my opinion It was touched on with exclusivity of skins in other games. In ranked before a game in overwatch it shows all the plauer names and their current SR and its average for the team. This is similar to leagues loading screens. And a big motivator for people to climb in league is the coveted "borders" the boarders for the portraits only obtainable by reaching that ranked bracket. Put a border or little image next to people's name in quickplay even to show their highest Level reached (bronze, silver, gold etc..) and make it something people want to add to their names on the loading screen to flex on people with. The motivation to aquire something like that when Quinn in QP with friends is huge and people will play much more ranked. Also league does seasonal skins for reaching gold and above and OW can do something like this too to encourage players to reach maybe platinum+ and maybe have a minimum amount of games played to get this reward. OW has sprays and the cool one is behind the top 500 barrier. While the animated spray is cool it's discouraging to casuals and or lower SR players to look at the rewards from ranked and say its worth it. Not saying I think this way but to appeal to the sheep ranked has to be worth it and gold guns are awesome but flex material is even better as well. TLDR: Put borders on the comploading screens or badges. And put those screens in quick play. Give skin for platinum+ per season and give more incentive to play ranked.

[@SILK97]

Second comment of the vid, I really woulda appreciated more discussion about the gameplay itself. Didn’t mind the talk about incorporating content creators more and Blizzard’s marketing, but it ran pretty long for me and I just cut the video. No hate, jus some feedback on my experience

[@ElectroVenik90]

What would happen if Ult meter didn't change when you change heroes?

[@omega.ak1]

I think that would break the game. Imagine Mercy farming ult and then switching to Zen or Lucio for a more impactful ult.

[@ElectroVenik90]

@@omega.ak1 Well, it is only really applicable if you're spawn camped/full held. Like, if you're playing Mercy and get ult while your team actually controls whatever objective you need or actively fighting, you don't want to die or go back to spawn just to switch for another hero. Because for 20+ sec you aren't there, your team would lose, enemy would gain ult, etc. Just not worth it. Besides, withing a category (tank, dps, support), the difference in ult charge rate is rarely more than 1 teamfight. Like, yes, you can get Valk every other teamfight, but you can just as easily get Trans or Beat every third teamfight, provided you're not feeding like crazy. Same with Shatter/Flux, or Pulse/Blade. Jumping off the map or losing with ult to switch to more impactful ult probably won't be worth it in the long run. Besides, ult meter isn't a thing, really. We have ult points charge, and if THEY are they ones that don't reset on switching and not percentage to ult, then a full Valk would just transform in (roughly) 69% Beat.

[@RabbitSquared]

It feels a lot like the devs want every hero to be played an even amount in all ranks but the problem with that is that some characters have more preference to be played. For example if the game was completely balanced and no character was too powerful or too weak, Genji has quite a cool design and he would likely get more play time than Bastion. Then the synergy between Genji and other heroes would make them more viable like Winston because they can dive together. That way Genji and Winston then get more play time so they get nerfed to bring the pick rate down or other heroes get a buff to bring pick rate up. Then the stronger heroes start to get played and develop a meta. I think the devs should focus on balancing heroes for the highest level instead of balanced pick rates. How it feels anyway, whenever it starts to feel balanced a hero out of the blue gets a buff or nerf. More recently it was the armour buff to Brig because she's boring to play so wasn't getting picked then became meta because she's so powerful. < Mid plat opinion so might not be the same across all ranks and I could be way off the mark :D

[@James_15R]

Thanks SVB, love these lengthy discussions. Keep it up!

[@lawlsaucemgee7849]

honestly if anybody is still playing league in 2020 they need to be put on the fbi watchlist

[@TheTheatralik]

First of all, I loved the debate - even though it might have been more philosophical and a bit more about the game itself rather than the support role. Which is totally fine! Loved it, some really nice discussions. Personally, I would love to see more changes. More drastic changes. Something that shakes it up more, because to be honest here: The game does get stale from time to time. Not that I care much about metas, I'm for the most part playing what I want and what I'm good at anyway. I just feel it's very hard to do, as it was established in the debate itself. We don't have many variables. There is only so much you can do to certain characters to make them interesting or viable. But I feel like actual weaknesses should be explored more. Why is something meta? Because it works most of the time, right? Screw the maps. We can still play double shield on first point Gibraltar attack, even though dive might actually be "easier" to win with, but harder to execute. And that to me sucks. I'd love characters to be good at certain things but bad at others. Regarding the seasons and ranked-system itself: I think making the top players in a season go for tryouts (or maybe even better: their own small tournament) would be a good incentive for players to actually climb and desire the highest rank. Right now? Why would I try my darndest to climb? Why play more and push myself through all that when there is no real endgoal other than showing a screenshot to others? It would also make the jump to pro (or into teams in general) a bit easier, as people can actually watch it. That would require longer seasons though, I assume. Not sure about that. Also, maybe a tournament-mode, or just a team-ranked-mode would be fun and helpful for that too. I don't think the group-finding-thingy actually worked for that long. But maybe that would encourage teamplay a bit more? Yes, I would LOVE a better tutorial. More stats. What does one thing do. I believe I am not a good player, but I certainly have the advantage over others, because I actually try to look things up and learn from content-creators. Some people don't have the time or even the idea to do so. And learning just from playing itself takes more time, which also means more frustration in general I'd say. So at least get some more basics in the game! Adding to that, why not implement some content-creators or some highlights of the league or contenders into the game itself? Not just the launcher (who actually watches anything there) but actually in the game. So you can watch something while waiting for the queue maybe? Yea, that might suck to do. Maybe Blizzard would have to put quite some money into it, but it might also raise the involvement of the community more. I'm also wondering why Blizzard doesn't put more effort into monetizing things anyway. Does something like an announcerpack hurt? Or other small customisations like those tickets/bundles that Dota has? Why not try to make a bit more money and put that into your suggestions? Like more tournaments, highlights for ranked players, more involvement with the community. I'd love to see more of non-pros in highlights too, because why not? I guess there is still hope for Overwatch 2, whenever that may come. Guess I am just rambling on right now, but hey, doesn't hurt. I love if there is a bit more controversy, we need a bit of a "devils advocat" in such debates. And it went well in this conversation! Just to end it positively: Keep up the wonderful work, the dedication and passion. I love the debates and the educational content! [and yes, I did not read over anything I've just typed, sorry for any mistakes :) ]

[@iyxon]

Jayne is the best guest you've had so far on Group Up 💯 Lots of interesting things to share and he's clearly thought about this stuff a lot, not just the typical opinions with analysis you hear from OW streamers and stuff

[@kingj282]

And I feel like most people tended to agree with Jayne

[@G005E-H0NK]

love the content svb. I hope you don't mind me criticizing your style a little. You need to take control of the conversation more as a host, for example... Ask people directly rather than waiting for someone to take the lead. It leads to less awkward moments waiting for polite ppl to reply and in some cases prevents dominant personalities from taking over (this rarely happens with your guests tho).

[@1c3sly13]

They should have just as many tanks and supports as DPS. Makes no sense this hasn't happened after 25 seasons.

[@Zyborgg]

I feel like every problem comes down to. There are not enough tank and support heroes. Would be insane if they added 3 more tanks, 1 for each comp. Though I think it's pretty hard to do that and still keep the new heroes interesting and the game balanced. Like all the new heroes they'll probably release something that does everything at once. A tank with the movement of pharah/echo with a shield like sigma and a dm like dva. Essentially a flying sigma. 34:30 I really like that idea of doing bans and hero picks like dota and locking in that hero

[@nicholasemmendorfer8748]

At 1:10:24 I got a little bit annoyed for them asking for rewards for top tier players that other players can’t get. 1. You’re mastery is the reward and you can leverage that to become a content creator, coach or streamer who makes literal irl money. 2. Rewarding people for playing ranked usually gets people to play for the wrong reason. 3. They already get rewards. I can’t believe they’re complaining because they have every golden gun. Jeez I wish I had that problem.

[@boris5467]

Not to complain about Jayne too much but, how are you gonna put two of the best EU supports, ML7 and Awkward next to Jayne who's literally like diamond and then ask them both to comment about the game

[@shellhorizon5774]

To give it more diversity so there's a range of comments, from more ranks and not just master and gm

[@boris5467]

@@shellhorizon5774 then you'd put a diamond, a masters and a GM, not two LITERAL TOP 3 PLAYERS and a guy that barely understands the actual mechanics of the game

[@locker47]

Jayne's ladder rank doesn't speak to his experience and understanding of the game as a coach. Universally in sports there are top tier coaches who don't necessarily possess the athleticism (or on Jayne's case the mechanical skill) to play at the highest level. He definitely had deep takes in the debate, just as (even more so than) ml7 and Awkward.

[@boris5467]

@@locker47 yes there's coaches that aren't even in plat, that being said, Jayne coached dallas fuel, literally one of, if not the richest team in the owl and brought them to an astounding like 15th place.

[@boris5467]

@@locker47 and even then, as you might need to realize in that particular moment, if your takes are deeper than those of literally THE top2 supports, maybe your takes aren't only deep, they're also stupid

[@jonc3519]

At about an hour in, I think Jayne forgets that we're talking about casual players. They can't be expected to look up the numbers if they want to compare heroes. ALmost all other games have stats easily displayed.. Then he says he wants the highest sr game to be displayed so that people dont have to watch stream.. hmm..

[@svnhddbst8968]

keeping a lot of things in mind at the same time is hard, it's easy to get murky when you spend a lot of time talking about different things.

[@az9498]

Competitive no limits is underrated for how competitive it could be if people took it serious.

[@bobxbaker]

there is a huge disconnect between the OWL and ranked games and pro teams. and what i wonder about it is why ranked even exist if it's not for teams to play another team? i mean it would only be naturally that you could watch pro teams play on ranked and have fun and maybe build rivalries through those games that could culminate on many ongoing tournaments which in turn could earn you seeding spots in the OWL. i've said it before, but i think you should only be able to 6 stack in ranked and nothing else. no random teams built by a matchmaker. that would incentivize better behaviour among players, less smurfing, less cheaters and less toxicity and actually make LFG feature a viable tool to find players for your team that you play on ranked. could even scout players from QP to be in your team to go into ranked and even form a long lasting bond because of it. but what do i know.

[@anthonycarter1528]

All the patch/ meta talk had me thinking - what if you did a random patch challenge hosted on the creator mode? Twelve GM/T500 players play a series of classic matches in a random patch and have to figure out how to optimize on the fly. Could at least be part of special SVB game scenario.

[@JeffGessas]

I know you've said this a couple times on the pod SVB but coming from a Dota background I have to say almost all of the problems usually raised on here would be solved with a pick/ban system, including disincentivizing mirror strats, stale-meta/balance issues, and the problem of one-tricks (insofar as that is a problem, up for debate). I don't think blizzard will ever implement it since they want hero swaps on a point-by-point basis, but maybe you could pick more than 6 heroes, like a side-deck in magic, and then pull out the other picks for points as needed. When you allow the entire cast in every game on every map you'll get the same top strategy every time. In dota, the best teams have a strategy which is flexible and practiced enough that it is hard to ban all the key components of it.

[@kingj282]

1:44:28 Inexplicable. Unforgivable. 😂😂

[@legendaryzan1100]

I know its a bit of a stretch to have happen, but i feel that someone like Brandito could have a an interesting perspective for a debate of this format

[@Smeik2901]

Didn't brandito quit Overwatch like a year ago

[@legendaryzan1100]

@@Smeik2901 he didnt quit he just doesnt have much time to play anymore, but like a week or so ago Wanted said on stream in response to someone that Brandito might be getting a laptop to stream every now n then

[@NexusSpacey]

Tank debate: Fuck Orisa i just wanna play anything else. Damage debate: Fuck Brig and fuck lamp reeeeee. Support debate: This game has near infinite potential, just a shame it's in such a drought. Let's speak big philosophical ideas and standpoints around Overwatch as a topic.

[@senor135]

LOVE THESE DEBATES!!!!

[@QuantenMagier]

ML7 is male? Always thought it was a real Ana.. o.O

[@Zippyheru]

For the dps one, can you split it in 2/3 parts and invite mains of that hero ? like for Mei it would be Jardio, Pharah would be Valkia etc I'd much rather hear the opinions of a specific hero from a player that actually plays them more than everyone else.

[@jonathanlange5769]

2:00:30 I hate the bias in this analysis. All supports heros except Bap were viable during the patch (October 13, 2020) everybody is quoting Seagull how great it was. Then on next patch they gave Brig 25 hp more and Bap more heal and damage (+ better ult one patch later) and double shield became meta. But don't worry cause we all now this is cause of the Brig buff (25 hp) so we revert it next patch. But surprise double shield is still meta I wonder how this could be with the Bap buffs staying completly?! I don't think Brig needs those 25 hp and at the end of the day she just became the scapegoat for a meta shift that was Baptists fault. The hate towars her in the OW community just surprises me every time.

[@Mark.Matthews]

A great debate, some very viable and interesting points. I found the content creation points raised by ml7 very true, Content creation and influence can play a huge roll in the popularity of a player and progress on the circuit. Very much like ufc fighter, there may be a better fighter than Conner but he brings the most eyes to the screen with his character.

[@nateu360]

Supports carry like how main tanks used to. Change my mind

[@niklasmaier2664]

true that on higher levels however for me my back hurts from carrying with hog all the time

[@_treeko]

@@niklasmaier2664 hog isn’t a main tank

[@niklasmaier2664]

@@_treeko true that

[@ItsOnlyGenjutsu]

I think SVB, AND Jayne are wrong with the tutorial. What needs to be done, is a bare bones mandatory tutorial (not like OW. but very quick summary of the roles). Then they need to have a "improve" tab/section, and this section has specific role/ character tutorials and interactions. Also, a "character archive" that lists each character's stats and abilities. Now what this does; is it gives the resources for people to learn and improve. But strictly of their own free will and not cramming it down the player's throat who wants to just hop in. This let's them do their research of their own volition and fosters the player's curiosity. Let's them seek it out, this makes a whole world of a difference. Especially psychologically... alot of the time I'll just hop in a game and see if it's something I can learn intuitively. GET ABSOLUTEY WRECKED or overwhelmed, and go "oh shit ill actually check that tutorial". Or hop in and do good and understand what something does, but just not statistically. So instead of spending all the time in the tutorial, I would go to the archive. Look at my character, see that my healing is 70 hps and then go and look at the enemy character (that I thought I should of survived against for example) and see that the enemy does 85 dps ect. ect. Or "WHAT THAT SLEPT ME FOR MY WHOLE ULTIMATE???" go and see that the sleep effect lasts for 11 seconds, and my ultimate only lasts for 9. So on and so forth. Or you have your character down stat, so now you need to look at what character abilities or statistical values coalesce with your character. It's so nice when it's left up to the player to decide what they need.

[@manucanedo8039]

SVB you are already one of the best OW content creators in the world. You remind me kind of of Jayne a couple years ago but with a modern more community-driven twist. Please be proud of your work and yourself and keep providing us with the sweet sweet content.

[@veanix3734]

So, where's the support debate?

[@kingj282]

It's a debate of support players. Confusing, I know

[@aviomarin7]

This marketing angle is absurd. If the game isn't fun no matter the amount of ads or paid influencers thrown at you will work. There are 20 dps players for 1 tank in competitive, and yet they aren't catered to, that's a stat any marketing pro would point as 1st thing to hinge your recovery on.

[@Kanggaxx]

Awkward is off topic most of the time. And he didn't really read the room. The subject switches and he just goes back to the previous thing, ignoring what everyone else said.

[@ShadowSword88ee]

SVB, I love when you do these discussions. Keep up the good content!

[@alerightone]

We need more heroes, and more heroes with similar (not the exact same) abilities to already existing abilities. And then implement some sort of a ban system. Also, they need to stop creating characters with more and more abilities AND a passive. At least think of a passive ability to every hero, especially main tanks. And massive reworks for multiple heroes. Get BUSTED abilities and mechanics out of the game.