jazzlessonsonskype.com sample lesson: Playing Outside the Harmony

[@paulgaggl3855]

(Part 2/2) Let me try to resolve the confusion by addressing the two specific (but distinct) issues you guys bring up: 1) What does a V-I of Bb to Eb have to do with Cm7? 2) Why on earth is C# pentatonic the right scale to play on a BbAlt? Point 1: In my understanding, this depends a lot on how exactly you voice your Bb and Eb chords. Let's assume you're playing by yourself and you don't have to worry about what other musicians in the band are doing (it requires more skill/cooperation when others also play harmony, but the principle is the same). Say you're playing the following 3 note voicing in your left hand for the first chord: E-Ab-Db. If you put a C below it as the bass note, then this is a C altered chord (3-b6-b9). But if you put a Bb as the bass note then this is a Bb altered (b5-7-b3). So, if we leave the bass note out, in our head, we could think of playing over BbAlt or Calt. It's the same voicing in the left hand! Likewise, if we move all notes by a half step to Eb-G-D we now either have a Ebmaj7 (1-3-#7) or a Cm9 (b3-5-9). So, by choosing these particular voicings, we can think of that chord sequence as either "two flavors of C" or as a V-I in Eb. It's the exact same notes. What (I think) George is trying to say is, if you already know how to play cool lines on V-Is in Eb, you can just repurpose them here. It will be more logical to you to think of a V-I (b/c you've practiced them 1000 times in all 12 keys, and have oodles of cool licks ready for them) rather than two obscure flavors of Calt that you need to navigate in the heat of the moment, and it will allow you to "mix it up" a bit rather than playing the Cm blues scale for 5 minutes straight. Point 2: It turns out that the first voicing (our BbAlt or Calt) is also the first inversion of a C#m triad. Hence, the C#m pentatonic scale works perfectly over a C#m triad. It will sound "unusual" from the perspective of Cm7 (that's the whole point of playing outside!) but it won't clash with the harmony you're playing in the left hand. And similarly, by design, on the second voicing you're playing Cm pentatonic again because Eb major pentatonic and C minor pentatonic are the same thing. The beauty of this particular example is that you're moving "a half step up" (C->C#) and then a half step down (C#->C) which makes for some nice tension and release in half steps. Also all the notes in the two left hand voicings move by a half step, if you're even playing the harmony at all. It will sound even more mysterious if you're only playing the right hand (like a sax player would do), but b/c you're mentally playing over a V-I you'll have a nice line that resolves (if your line nicely resolves over the V-I in your head, then it will also resolve over the Cm7). But if you want to give yourself and the the listener a "crutch" you can play the two voicings with the left hand and it will make "more sense" to everybody. George's bigger point in this video/demonstration is that you can make this work with ANY of the 12 pentatonic scales! It's not always going to be a V-I (like the second example he gives) but some other standard "bebop vocabulary" that he assumes you already know and can nicely repurpose here, without needing to practice any new scales or chord sequences. I hope this made some sense. Let me know if not.

[@micheletarantino7055]

I agree. Thanks for the analysis ;)

[@kankan7940]

I love George's touch although I don't quite understand what he's doing because he's not using his left hand. I want to take advantage of your breadth to ask you a couple of questions. I have two questions about george's approach 1)Any of these lines work for me while playing C minor? 2)What chord to put in the left hand in F sharp or A flat I will appreciate your response

[@jonsnow4372]

Simplified explanation: 1) Use the familiar V to I progression as a device for playing outside the chord changes. 2) On the V chord, get all the spicy altered notes by playing a minor pentatonic scale starting from the #9 of the dominant chord (for Bbalt7 its C# minor pentatonic) and then resolve the line to I chord (Ebmaj7). 3) This same V to I structure can be transposed to all keys as an outside playing device against a static key center (here the backing track is in C minor).

[@paulgaggl3855]

(Part 1/2) This is a fantastic discussion! It seems like there's still some confusion here (unless I missed it). It made me think really hard about whether I understand it or not (I think I do...). And since I learn the most from trying to explain something to others, let me give it a try. We're dealing with a few separate issues here, and I'll start with some preliminaries: 1) This is a fairly advanced concept in George's curriculum (clearly a KZbin teaser. You'd learn the whole truth if you sign up for his lessons, which I personally think are FANTASTIC!). He implicitly assumes two things. First, you already know how to play pentatonic scales in all keys and have tons of licks and other stuff at your fingertips on all of these scales, that you're ready to use at any moment without having to think about it. Second, you can play V-I cadences in any key in your sleep. Like a seasoned bebop player would. This is not necessary for what he's explaining but his logic makes more sense if THAT is your starting point. 2) The mission here is to play "outside" the harmony. In my understanding this applies primarily to "modal jazz" where you're playing a particular "mode" and the details are up to you. For practical purposes, this would be a situation where the chart says "solos are over a Cm7 chord", and that's it. Now play a solo for 5 minutes and make it sound interesting. Only Cm7. The art is to "leave Cm7" as you desire BUT to "gracefully find your way back home". 3) George is trying to provide a simple (mental) trick/system/logic that allows you to do what I describe in point 2) by simply "repurposing" the skills/tools (which he assumes you already have) mentioned in point 1). In fact, he demonstrates that his trick/method/system allows you to visit any key you want and gracefully come back to Cm7 while only repurposing the things from 1) that you already know. So, if you don't have all this bebop vocabulary already baked into your brain/fingers, then I think his "trick" is a little less useful (on the surface at least). How does this work? See my next post (part 2/2).

[@reh331]

Thanks so much, George. This answers questions I've had in my mind for quite some time. I'm a jazz drummer learning to become a musician, so this really, really helps. Thanks again.

[@FrancisFurtak]

Too cool! Love the deviation at the end! You are a monster!

[@kimbullard770]

So glad to find you here!!

[@JohnnyJazzFreak]

Mind-blowing. Thanks for expanding our minds.

[@adityasaxena7374]

Loved it please make more in depth videos explaining stuff

[@brigitterichart5148]

Really nice jazz lesson, thanks a lot !

[@chrisfischer9825]

Sweet revelations as always!

[@espr7564]

Great stuff George thankyou and greetings from Germany.🎷😎❤👍

[@GMan269]

George: I've watched this a couple of times. In your example you select C#/Cm as an "outside" example, you select Bb Alt (V of EbMaj7). A Bb Alt (+9, b13) scale for improv was taught to me as a B melodic minor. I see the notes or enharmonic equivalents, but I'm not connecting the dots. The Bb alt contains a D natural and A#(Bb) that aren't in the C#m Pentatonic. What is the relationship between the two and the basis for your decision? Thanks for the any light you can shed here.

[@TheP1800]

Exellent playing and tutorial on this subject!

[@mcreationgraph]

Merci 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@rolfschorfheide3568]

I believe that George requires a lot of knowledge here. In fact, all notes of C#min Pentatonic are included in the Bb altered scale. He is just so deep into this stuff. Great player and totally symphatic!

[@jangerdes9245]

Great advice, thank you!

[@eddguitar]

hey George i love ur playing ive learning alot with tha ideas thanks SSSOOOO muchhhh (guitar)

[@MabookaMabooka]

Thank you! Great material, nice lesson (s); there is only one issue - the animated stave (it's a bit too disturbing).

[@guitarlots]

This is great work

[@odinofanchin9281]

Hi, I'm Odino, I'm a pianist and I've been studying and practicing Jazz harmony for a while, I'm very attracted and interested in this type of "outside" improvisational approach, I followed your tutorial on this topic but honestly trying to put your indicatons into practice I couldn't get a satisfactory result maybe because I didn't understand what the right way and technique is to exit and re-enter the key so that the result is beautiful and sounds good, you do it with great mastery and elegance, I can't do it maybe because the topic is elaborate and must be studied with method perhaps with practical written examples, also here you only dealt with minor chords but on 7 of dominant, Maj 7, semi-diminished how can you practice outside? Please I would like to know if in your courses there are specific lessons regarding this topic of outside impro and how can I get/buy them Thank you very much

[@petrus7977]

I love you, you are so cool Phil Hartman

[@jeanjauresbutoyi1470]

Really amazing, but i didn t understand 5-1 concept, and the melodic patterns in the different keys

[@snakeleon]

Do more videos please! Are amazing!

[@waterlec8718]

This is effectively how Jan Hammer plays... Awesome stuff to listen to... Takes you for a Ride 🚗💨😊‼️

[@michalfedor92]

Mind blowing! Greetings from Slovakia! :)

[@copernicus99]

Thanks, this is really great! I would be curious to hear what your melody sounds like in isolation without the funk track in the background.

[@timwells6011]

Sick lines!

[@jackjesseimoh9070]

This sounds like heaven!

[@14Kimme]

wow, did you use sibelius program? how did it work immediately? is there somebody, anybody who know how it write down notes at the same time on sibelius :(

[@guitarplayer8627]

Love This

[@bitcoinman9202]

Oh ya I’m feelin that shit

[@josegallegos1067]

This is great. I will contact you and I look forward to learning . Thank you

[@infinitycholo7900]

Im only here because i was curious was the reverse name of Home - Resonance I did outside harmony And now im here and This is definitely the reverse type beat of resonance

[@michaeldumas4907]

do you cover this in Artists works? thanks mike

[@squoocher]

absolutely brilliant.. thank you.. one video makes sense of something badly explained by a hell a lot of other people

[@squoocher]

actually i'm totally stumped by the explanation .. 5 1? i know what a five and a one chord are but no idea how they apply here.. hmmm. bugger!

[@JohnnyJazzFreak]

@@squoocher Well, say you were in Cm. Bb7 would be the dominant 5 (V) of Eb, which would be the (I) chord, and Cm would be the relative minor of Eb in that instance.

[@johnnyh64]

@@JohnnyJazzFreak That doesn’t make sense in HIS description. He is explaining how to think about playing C#minor pentatonic and what he’s thinking about in his head (5-1), not C minor because he’s explaining taking it outside the key now. So if he explained that he was thinking B7alt which is now the key of EMaj, then the C#m pentatonic makes sense but he didn’t do that, he is saying he’s thinking Bb7alt, not B7alt. He is not a very clear teacher unfortunately. I wish he would also respond to these messages. {sigh}

[@anttiokker2303]

Hey guys! I just watched the video and wondered myself about the 5-1 chord progression of the C minor harm and how the idea of ​​Bb7 is related to this. I found the same thoughts in the comments and I myself realized that it was a backdoor dominant C - hence the idea in the video. What do you think?

[@mikereali6215]

Great man just great!!!

[@poco0210]

Super What is the name of thats preset?

[@dagharr2]

how does he get to choosing C#minor over Bb7alt? i guess it has many altered tones: b9, #9, b5, b13. ok stepping back in my confusion..why does he need to relate it to a V-I in Eb? He's doesn't seem to care about resolving to an Eb...so why the extra mental baggage of conceptualizing it as a V-I? Why not just call it a C#minor pentatonic over Cminor which sounds "out there" and then resolve to some Cminor sounds eventually?

[@carlosthecat]

I agree, his theory is confusing. Cminor pent is the same as Ebmaj pent. Maybe he's thinking use the 5 chord of the relative major? ie: Bb7alt to Ebmaj George is amazing, I wish I could follow this line of thinking. When he says he thinks 5 to 1, I would think G7 to Cmin or Ab7 to C#min. I don't understand where he gets Bb7alt. Any ideas?

[@SkilledMusician]

@@carlosthecat This idea is called Subdividing Harmony. If you play a C minor 9 chord as a rootless voicing, in the left hand you get Eb-G-Bb-D. This is exactly the same as an Eb major 7. So now, even though the root note is C, we aren't thinking "C minor" anymore; we are actually thinking Eb major 7. We've 'divided" the root from the remainder of the chord. So what progression or chord can I use to propel me to Eb major 7? The V-I progression, or, in other words, a Bb7 chord. He could have even played Fm7 - Bb7 and then landed on Eb major 7. This Subdividing Harmony concept helps you find creative, non-standard ways to play ideas you normally wouldn't consider when thinking strictly functional harmony. Hope this helps!

[@zoaltamam]

Nicely explained, Skilled Musician!! Thanks. Now, where does the C# minor pent come in this analysis? If we think of the V-I in the tonality of Cm, that explains the Bb7, but the essence of playing outside is expressed in the shift to C# minor pent, but I can’t like the Bb7 to the C#m here! Are they related?

[@carlosthecat]

@@SkilledMusician I follow your line of thinking. I have never heard or seen any reference to what you call Subdividing Harmony. Where did you come across this?

[@pavelzalom9486]

​@@SkilledMusicianSo it is the same if he would play core to E (F#minor - A7 - E)? I mean core shifted half step up?

[@fulviogarrione6424]

It s possible to get pdf ? Thanks you

[@copernicus99]

Sounds amazing, but the '5-1' approach pattern that you mention is not clear to me. Could you please explain this a bit more? What are the 5 and the 1 relative to the 'outside' minor pentatonic that you are superimposing on the Cmin?

[@JohnnyJazzFreak]

Well, say you were in Cm. Bb7 would be the dominant 5 (V) of Eb, which would be the (I) chord, and Cm would be the relative minor of Eb in that instance.

[@johnnyh64]

@@JohnnyJazzFreak But that puts us in the key we are already in. He is now explaining how to play outside by playing C# minor over the C minor vamp and trying to explain how by using Bb7alt as an example. Why not just specify implicitly what 5-1 you are thinking and exactly how or why the C#minor pentatonic works over it. I know myself that you can play a minor 3rd up from an altered dom, but that seems like an overly complicated way to think about all of this and it doesn’t give another example of how to apply this in say using a 5-1 of AMaj over the Cminor chord just to for him to be much more clear. All he says is 5-1 then plays a pentatonic not clearly explaining why that pentatonic. Not a good teacher IMO.

[@juniorbabla2001]

GR8.

[@edwinkeys]

Thank you ..!!!

[@esiegel2]

It seems that many of us are confused by the relationship of the Bbalt to the C#m pentatonic. Its clear that the C#m pentatonic is included in the Bbalt, but there is no cadence or functional relationship (though you refer to a cadence) and its not clear how you are using it. I'd be grateful if you could explain a bit more, I have never encountered this approach. Thanks in advance.

[@ecolobrodu]

I think it's a tritone substitution thing. C# minor pentatonic is the same as E major pentatonic (E F# G# B C#), and E major pentatonic fits entirely into Bb7 altered, since it just takes notes from E7#11, which has the same notes as the Bb7 altered scale.

[@tradingwithwill7214]

You can play minor pentatonic up a minor 3rd from root of altered chord eg, A7alt would be Cm pent.

[@e.d.1642]

Wait. This seems overcomplicating. Why use an altered if you can just think of the pentatonic. It's two steps in the mind : C#m pentatonic so Bb7 altered. But why not juste think C#m penta then. Especially in this case thinking of the altered one works because it resolves on Eb the relative major of Cm, so it only works with Bb7alt/C#mP... And also since Bb7alt is Bm melodic why not just think of Bm mel resolving to Cm. I'm not sure many of us already think Bbm penta over G7alt for example. I personally think Abm melodic. So I will not play the same if you tell me play Bb7alt/Bm mel or play C#m penta. Not being salty here, but this just seems to be complicating the stuff, we could just think play the penta of another minor with the right approaches and resolve to the tonality with the right approach.

[@johnnyh64]

I agree with you completely, he didn’t really explain what 5-1 he’s really thinking about in the first place, and is it that he’s actually thinking about the full 5-1 line in his head and that’s why or is it a overly complicated way of getting to the point of it being a C#m pentatonic. Because to me, like you said, most people don’t think to play up a minor 3rd from the alt chord. So now we are doing 3 big steps to get to the point. 5-1 but on the 5 chord move up a minor third. Also, the 5-1 in his example would put us in the key of EbM of which the Cminor is the relative key, he’s trying to explain playing outside and at this point, I feel like I’m locked outside of any understanding of what he’s saying and it doesn’t appear he addresses any of these comments. Frustrating!

[@mikejamieson4252]

A-6 mean A minor6? Arpeggio?

[@enricolongo242]

I never saw all 12 tonatities on one key bass)

[@brasilnopoder818]

You good! All glory to god!

[@dbrapowell1306]

How do I get the download? You sound great.

[@tobbebergman7583]

+1

[@piracycan]

Sounds great..but poor explanation..most of us don't understand your 5-1 concept... Then u used Bb7 over C#m... Please elaborate...but again.. Sounds amazing... key word is OUTSIDE...lol

[@JohnnyJazzFreak]

Well, say you were in Cm. Bb7 would be the dominant 5 (V) of Eb, which would be the (I) chord, and Cm would be the relative minor of Eb in that instance.

[@macco000]

Can i have a pdf ?

[@paxwallacejazz]

So it's highly plausible possible and even probable to do this on a static tune or section. I do. Ok but to play out over complex moving harmonies is another thing. If inside approaches provide such a wide inventory of notes outside the key and/or Diatonic chord scale to include all the Bop circling tones and passing tones then post bop altered harmonic approaches not to mention chord superimpositions etc ..well a knowledgeable cat can get pretty polytonal yet clearly related resolving occasionally. So the question revolves around Schoenbergs objection to some forms of polytonality. He liked harmonic environments that were ambiguous enough to accommodate your weirdness or eventually his case eliminate the possibility of wrong notes. But don't think he liked clinkers. Just saying.

[@aarontabuchi5693]

When you say you’re creating a cadence with Bb7Alt in mind, but playing C#minor pentatonic: do you mean that you’re accenting the notes found in the B7 Alt but playing c#m pentatonic? If not, could you clarify how the B7 Alt comes into play?

[@zeoneon24]

He's playing the C# minor pentatonic as his scale of choice over the Bb7Alt chord and then superimposes that over the C minor groove.

[@ukaykeys]

@@zeoneon24 C#m pentatonic is related to Bb7alt. C#m pentatonic has the following tones: C# (which is #9 in Bb), E (#11 in Bb), F# (b13 in Bb), G# (7 in Bb) and B (b9 in Bb). You can see that C#m pentatonic covers all alterations of Bb7alt.

[@danjacobson1365]

@@ukaykeys Bb alt = B melodic minor...C# minor would be the 2nd mode ...I think that's correct .

[@bitcoinman9202]

I don’t feel it’s tension. To me it feels like dreaming

[@rhylennaicker1598]

Hi where is the rest of your videos ? I'm really keen on learning

[@jazzlessonsonskypecom]

Hey, Rhylen: Just uploaded another lesson, this one on a very important concept in jazz improvisation; you can find it here: kzbin.info?o=U&video_id=Qe7h-Y0Mmss

[@jhondrinkwater7506]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qmPOaXt-o8-Hhrs What scale does he use when plays outside ?

[@johnnyh64]

This didn’t make any sense at all. You missed explaining how a 5-1 relates to C#m. You’re example is to consider it being played over a Bb7alt. Why?? Bb7alt would normally resolve to EbM or Ebm key…how does that relate to C#minor at all? I was considering lessons but if you miss these fundamental explanations I’m not sure I would be able to follow. It also doesn’t appear that you answer any questions on the channel so I’m left disappointed.