A Different (Better!) Approach for Chord-Scale Relationships in Jazz Improv

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Pianist and educator Jeremy Siskind shares how to find more accurate scales for any chord, without memorizing a whole bunch of mode names.

[@JoeLinux2000]

Fantastic lesson. Better ear players just do this naturally. I love the way you are writing it out. It's most helpful. This is one of the best explanations I have ever seen on this subject.

[@JeremySiskind]

Great! I'm so glad you liked it, Mr. or Mrs. Internet Privacy Advocate! 😉

[@RatPfink66]

> Better ear players just do this naturally. But when someone knows theory _for itself,_ their playing has a deeper, richer, more composed sound. They can color the harmony, and the improvised line, in ways the ear alone would never come up with.

[@AdiStoenescu]

Great stuff, Jeremy! Thank you! I also love how this relates to the "key center" way of thinking that you talked about in another video!

[@JeremySiskind]

That is a wise observation! Yes - I think that scale theory misses is the importance of a key center!

[@kwixotic]

For my own experiment I had the C Diminished 7 resolve to a G major to then determine what that scale would be like and it's beyond the pale( and therefore beyond the scale!).

[@rkneale1]

Brilliant Jeremy! This is a very practical way of looking at chord/scale relationships. Very helpful…thanks so much.

[@JeremySiskind]

Great! I'm glad it's helpful, Ron. I still need to do some thinking about it, but I think I'm on to something.

[@erdemtonguc3501]

Thanks a lot Jeremy, the last one is new and interesting for me, thanks again!

[@JeremySiskind]

That's great, Erdem! Enjoy!

[@francescomanfredi]

Great lesson and very useful approach!

[@JeremySiskind]

Thank you, Francesco!

[@joesauvage1165]

This is just a whole lot of fun! Deepest thanks!

[@vinx002]

This is the berklee method for the easy individuation of chord scale and i love it, because it's really fast and it makes clear the idea for what in the scale we have stronger notes (chord tones) and passing note (from the key center) between a chord tone and another chord tone

[@tommasocollalti6441]

Thanks Jeremy, super Easy and clear !

[@JeremySiskind]

Great! I'm glad you find it useful!

[@pianoproductivitypeace]

That's a very cool approach to diminished chords, I've always been a bit puzzled on how to treat them and end up just resorting to arpeggios, but love this mindset - thanks!

[@donschneider7953]

...interesting, fresh, and useful ways of looking at this...thank you...

[@JeremySiskind]

Great! I'm glad it was useful for you, Don!

[@eiiiotrodger6279]

Great video, I always ignored melodic/harmonic minor because people said "Oh play the Lydian Dominant Altered of the C7b5#11" blah blah and I thought that was corny. Using them over non-diatonic substitutions seems a lot more useful.

[@JeremySiskind]

Nice! That's a great takeaway. Thanks, Elliot!

[@lutherhughes7091]

As usual I was hungry and you gave me food for thought 🙂 Thanks Jeremy

[@chrisharrison809]

Dig it! Would love to see more on the extended dominants resolving in other ways as well as half diminished and finished chords. Like, F#m7b5 to Fm7 in Emily. Would also love to see you take this idea and “chord” all of the motions, like a chord melody. 7th mode of harmonic over diminished is a new concept to me. Curious if you’ve looked into the Kurt rosenwinkle lessons on harmony?

[@JeremySiskind]

I obviously admire Kurt's playing but I haven't checked out his lessons. I'm sure they're brilliant, like him! Yes, there is a lot to explore here. That F#Ø7 is an interesting question. You could treat it like you're in C major, which I think is the most logical explanation...or like you're in E minor (the Fm7 would be subbing for a B7 in that case). That's where I'm at thinking about that for now, but I'm open to other thoughts!

[@brendaboykin3281]

Mucho Thanxo, Maestro. Immediately helpful, new way of thinking. 🌹🌹🌹🌹

[@TonyWinston]

What?!?!

[@JeremySiskind]

Mucho, you're welcome-o? 😂

[@brendaboykin3281]

@@JeremySiskind 🌹🔥🌹

[@marisaelenenadiejamusiccom3974]

This is a really good video I really prefer abstract thinking in music at times and surrealistic modes of thinking and jazz. Not everybody is interested in progressive Jazz bar experiment soul jazz. I love a certain kinds of oven gorgeous wonderful.

[@JeremySiskind]

Very cool, Marisa! Thanks for your comments!

[@WoodyGamesUK]

I think it seems very natural to do it this way if you have improvised on the piano for a long time playing some styles where you don't have accidental notes every bar, or don't change key every few bars, basically most styles that aren't jazz, like pop, rock, traditional... I am aware of the way chord-scale relationship is taught in jazz, but I have never had the motivation to really practice that way, considering that I get a decent result doing it your way, with much less effort! Having said that, and I think you would agree, there are times when shifting the context can be done on purpose, when you want to borrow a scale from a different mode (modal interchange I think), of course it's more advanced. I guess the more you know, using all approaches, the better it is.

[@caseydahl1952]

interesting approach, for me the default on the diminished chords should be filling in notes from the minor scale, since that's where diminished chords come from. Your way results in scales with 3 chromatic notes side by side which is very cool though

[@JeremySiskind]

Ooh, interesting to consider! Thank for that, Casey!

[@geralddavis5458]

I'm Gerald this is genius

[@skaflamag22]

Great video Jeremy, thank you for sharing this info. Question - at the 13 minute or so mark you talk about G7 to C- then discuss C harmonic minor. It appears as though you are using C natural minor with the raised 7th as opposed to the C dorian minor with the raised 7th. Is there context to tell me that would be the case? Playing Ab or A over the G7 is a big difference.

[@JeremySiskind]

Hi Jason! I'm not sure I totally understand your question, but I'll take my best shot. C harmonic minor is the same as the natural minor with the raised seventh, yes? That's what I would use when forming chords in the key center of C minor (that's why we call it the harmonic minor). And, yes, I'd play an A-flat on a G7 chord leading to C minor.

[@skaflamag22]

@@JeremySiskind Sorry if I wasn't clear! I was taught that most of the time in modern music and jazz when I see a minor chord it's usually implying a Dorian minor scale, so C- would only have the Eb and Bb, but the Harmonic Minor then raises that Bb to a B. So my question is what context do I need to look for to decide whether or not the minor is implying Dorian or Natural? I hope this makes sense.

[@JeremySiskind]

@@skaflamag22 so if the minor chord is the ii chord in a major Key center, you want to use the Dorian scale. If a minor chord is in fact it’s own key center (if it’s led into by a V, for instance), think of the harmonic scale primarily (it’s more complex than that, but that’s the gist)

[@SayingsOfSeers]

I'm a bit of a novice trying to wrap my head around this. If I'm understanding correctly this is just like a way to see the other side of the coin as it were before you jump there? It's like a way to layer different scales on top of the more generic chords,?

[@JeremySiskind]

Hm, I don't think that's it. I'm not sure I'll be able to say it better via a comment than I did in the video. But, basically, you can group chords into key centers instead of thinking of an individual scale for each chord.

[@SayingsOfSeers]

@@JeremySiskind and since you are breaking free from the individual scale mindset it opens up more opportunities

[@ernsterlanson]

Great, that was a useful way to think about this! One quibble regarding dominants, I wonder if this theory gets a little limited here. For instance, when is "the key" an altered dominant scale. In the key of C minor for instance I don't see how you can derive the altered scale on G with this method. What do you think?

[@barryo5158]

I’m not big on scales, but to me the altered dominant is really a substitute of Db7 for G7 in this case. So it ends up like a back door to Eb but you go to Cm, it’s relative minor.

[@JeremySiskind]

Good question! This process allows you to find the most "normal" scale for each chord, but oftentimes we want to choose less obvious scales. I think it is interesting that if you take the arpeggio of, let's say a C7 chord (C, E, G, Bb) and then selected notes from the key of B (the key the tritone substitution of C7 - F#7- would lead to) (C#, D#, F#, G#), you get the altered scale. It doesn't work quite so cleanly as the others, but it's interesting to consider!

[@ernsterlanson]

@@JeremySiskind I see what you mean. Interesting how the altered scale relates to tritone sub, when I think about, the altered scale does have that kind of sound. Great content from you as always!

[@ernsterlanson]

@@JeremySiskind Another q, how about subdominant with flat 7, e.g F7 in C major. Your theory would make it an F dominantlydian scale which does not sound quite right in my ears! I would prefer playing a b flat as my instinctive choice. Maybe some of these questions are actually just obsessing over details which does not matter:P but still, do you have thoughts on that?

[@allanhenderson5262]

Aha. If you know the scales cold, then this is a small step to accomplish. If not, it’s hard to do. Depends a lot on what you already know, where you’re starting from. For me, this is easier

[@JeremySiskind]

Yeah, that's probably right. It's a different way of looking at things and I think it removes some of the deficiencies of traditional Jamey Aebersold chord-scale theory.

[@allanhenderson5262]

@@JeremySiskind I think of it like this…. You’ve got the key of the moment and a chord, which you play in to emphasize the root of that chord, so you’re in a mode. You can call that the scale of the moment. Sometimes you play a deformed chord & scale, replacing some notes with notes outside the key or chord, if you like the sound. Then the problem comes down to keeping track of the deformations you like to hear so you can play that again, and of course doing it all in real time

[@je-pq3de]

Ok, weirdly, this is the default to me? Like this is what I would describe as the most "inside" you can be

[@JeremySiskind]

Cool - not weird at all! You're maybe just a good musician with great instincts!

[@ulflundberg5029]

How is this different? This is basically what I was taught at Berklee in the mid 80s.

[@JeremySiskind]

I wasn't taught at Berklee, so I couldn't say, but I've never heard the odd/even numbered notes of the scales described in this way. I've generally heard people say "when you see x chord type, use y scale". But maybe I'm just repeating old news.

[@ulflundberg5029]

@@JeremySiskind Anybody who says "when you see x chord type, use y scale" clearly doesn't know what they are talking about. Just like you say in the video; chords usually function in keys and the chord scale reflect that.

[@JeremySiskind]

@@ulflundberg5029 we are on the Same page for sure!