What's the Difference Between C7, C9, and C13? (😮 It's not what you think...😮)

✅ Enjoying the Videos? Buy Me a Coffee! bmc.link/siskindpiano
✅ Buy Jeremy's book at www.jeremysiskind.com/shop/
✅ Schedule a lesson with Jeremy. Save $5 with coupon code KZbin: app.squarespacescheduling.com/...
✅ Sign up for Jeremy's mailing list at eepurl.com/geqUkz
Pianist, educator, author, and alpaca farmer, Jeremy Siskind discusses the difference between notating a chord as C7, C9, or C13 using examples from Autumn Leaves and the Thad Jones/Mel Lewis version of All of Me.
Remember, kids: Chord symbols give information, not instructions.

[@pianoproductivitypeace]

Thanks Jeremy, I remeber freaking out when given a big band chart with how specific the chord symbols were and how fast they move - now it makes sense that these are the voicings that represent brass and woodwinds - and ironically I just found myself ignoring those and trying to cut through by doing octave voicings in the gaps. I saw the count basie big band live in Tasmania (not the actual count basie) but loved the style of how the pianist played perfectly in the gaps - would love a video on that if that's your bag :) Love your lessons mate, thanks for all your work!

[@JeremySiskind]

Yeah, big band charts can be really intimidating depending on how they’re written. It helps to understand it’s just giving you as much info as possible.

[@DolceMusicGroupZim]

Very informative thank you

[@JeremySiskind]

My pleasure! I’m glad you liked it, Tinashe!

[@JoshWalshMusic]

Happy Birthday Jeremy!

[@JeremySiskind]

Thanks, buddy! See you in a few days!

[@bethanylowe8773]

I love your videos as you know. At the same time the sound level is always so quiet that it really restricts what environments I can listen to them in. My laptop won't go up any louder!

[@JeremySiskind]

Thanks for the feedback! I’m always looking to improve. I haven’t gotten this feedback for a little while, so I will look into it

[@micahslobcrud5958]

@@JeremySiskind yeah, a bit more volume. For if it is too loud on our end, we can turn it down. of course, you don't wanna distort at your end, when you make it. A few self-experiments will clear that up.

[@BMarPiano]

Excellent presentation! Very helpful - thank you! Love the graphics 🕵️

[@JeremySiskind]

Great! Thanks much, Ms. Brenda!

[@ScottMeloney]

Jeremy, this is such a great explanation! Totally answers a lot of my questions! Thank you so much!! Keep ‘em coming! 😎🎹👍

[@JeremySiskind]

Super happy to hear this, Scott! I love when questions get answered!

[@chrisbigred1]

Thanks! This makes me much more confident about my big band playing.

[@JeremySiskind]

Awesome! Glad to hear it, Chris!

[@mrmusicplz09]

Thanks Jeremy!!! I’m glad you keep making these videos. Thinking from the perspective of listening to what the whole band is doing or not doing makes great sense. Your explanation of the big band chart was very informative. Thanks again.

[@JeremySiskind]

Awesome! Happy to hear that, Gregory!

[@bigdog38au]

I explain to my students that the extensions/alterations are like putting fancy clothes on someone…the person is still the same person, just with more colour or personality in some way. It doesn’t change their essential being, just like a C7b9 is still a dominant.

[@erdemtonguc3501]

Thanks a lot for making that clear!

[@JeremySiskind]

My pleasure, Erdem!

[@humblemai2211]

Love you much

[@JeremySiskind]

Thanjssssssssssss😊

[@jimmccloskey3601]

@5:53 I'm not advanced by any means at all, but I suppose I do prefer the notating scheme suggested in Mark Levine's "The Jazz Piano Book" (my first book before finding Siskind's PSJP -- where I find PSJP explains solo jazz piano much more clearly with the intent to play solo). In Levine's book, that 3rd chord of C7b5#5#9 would instead be a C7#9#11b13. In my mind this is more clear because it handles each extended-note alteration one-at-a-time, in numerical order (5, 9, 11, 13). It's simpler for me to to think of the potential alterations as the 9th being flattened or sharpened, the 13th being flattened, the 11th sharpened. On the C7alt: in Levine's book, the C7alt would by-default imply a more typical b9#13, so the extra #11 if truly required in this case would need to be specified. Also the #11 seems much less common as it doesn't resolve as well to a I-chord? My preference is to keep the b5 notation for whole-tone chords - makes it very fast to see this more unusual case. I.e. less an "alteration" and more of a special chord like a phryg or sus. IMHO! Just thought I'd share the the types of things that in the past have tripped me up and posed a barrier to my thought understading. I'm still a total noob though so please do correct me if I'm overly nitpicky or just wrong!! Thank you for the great book and companion videos Jeremy! The videos are something that was certainly lacking in my past books -- so helpful to hear how these examples should be properly played and heard!

[@JeremySiskind]

Hey Jim! Great comment - lots of good insights here. I think it's a very case-by-case decision for me, and sometimes ease of reading/communication trumps "correctness" for me too. I'm mostly pretty patient with reading lots of different notations...unless you're in my class...then I'm strict. 😉

[@jimmccloskey3601]

@@JeremySiskind Ha yes I think I was / am being overly picky as I know there's no "one way" in jazz! (I'm a statistical coder which I'm sure has made me way too rigid). Though I also just realized I had some confusing wording and typos that just tried to fix -- whoops!

[@arpadternei6991]

Another great lesson!!!💪🙏

[@JeremySiskind]

Thank you, Arpad! I hope you’re doing well!

[@arpadternei6991]

@@JeremySiskind thank you Jeremy! Everything excellent!🎼🥂

[@davidurbanpiano]

Great, thanks a lot! A whole video about playing piano in a bigband would also be awesome :)

[@JeremySiskind]

Cool! I’ll think about it!

[@JRiggs9]

Another wonderful video. Thanks Jeremy . . . 🙂

[@JeremySiskind]

Thank you much!!!

[@liquensrollant]

Fantastic insight!

[@JeremySiskind]

Thanks much! Glad you enjoyed!

[@JuroJanik]

Excelent video! Thank you

[@JeremySiskind]

My pleasure, Juraj (and apologies for the late reply). Happy new year!

[@anastasiagulai5782]

Jeremy, thank you so much for such awesome and clear explanation❤ I got it! Also the intro made me happy for all day left! 😁

[@JeremySiskind]

Perfect! I’m happy it was helpful!

[@anastasiagulai5782]

@@JeremySiskind it definitely was helpful, I’m grateful forever !! You are my guiding light ! Have a nice day,Jeremy

[@santibanks]

For me, I do treat those chords as statements of intent from the composer. If it says C7, I might add any of the natural extentions in the voicing. If it says C7b9, I will make sure that b9 sound is established, meaning I will certainly not add in any more alterations as to take away from this specific chord colour. Chord symbols imply scales/modes to me. The more precise the symbol, the more intentional the flavour and I prefer to honour it to the point where these alterations are chord tones instead of mere choices. I often will try to incorporate them as targets in my lines, irregardless if the melody features them (but it is true that often this is the case). The approach depends slightly on the composer. If it was C7b9 in a Chick Corea tune, then he probably wants that dissonance to give a hint of "flamenco" because that is kind of his sound (and usually the context these will pop up in his tunes) and therefor don't really add to it. If it is Wayne Shorter, then it indicates to me that Wayne wants it in there but take the liberty to add alterations as you see fit because otherwise he would have given you a very specific voicing as that is his style. That said, b5 and #11 are enharmonically the same but depending on context, one notation is highly preferred (and "correct") to me over the other because the chord implies a flavour. If you are sticking a b5 or #5 symbol in a chord, they always imply diminished and augmented sounds respectively to me. Which is really not the same as the lydian #11 sound because that scale still has a natural 5 and no natural 4. Specific alterations imply that their natural counterparts are not part of the available harmony (unless it just says "alt"). Again, it is why for me I do regard them as instructive because it communicates intent and limitation of choices.

[@micahslobcrud5958]

Loved it and learned sumpin new! Perhaps Jeremy could explain, in a quick(?) future video, why one should alter the 11th in a major or dominant chord? (Or maybe he explained it already and I missed it!) Since few will read my lengthy and dull comment as compared with the legions(!) who watch his videos, the reason is (of course) the clash between the major 3rd and the 11th (4th up an octave) which results in a minor 9th interval (or an octave plus a minor 9th), and of course this minor 9th sound really changes the character of a chord. So kids, it will be easier to hear the "hipness" of using an 11th on a major or dominant chord if you sharp it. Jeremy will surely explain it better than I. Try playing a C major chord in the left hand and an F in the higher octave, and ask yourself if it sounds cool. Most of us say it sounds bad. Don't be afraid of learning theory, after all, it came AFTER people found stuff that they liked or sounded good, but once you know this "reasonably" small ball of theory (Hey, it DOES take some WORK like ear training (which is a lifelong pursuit--but hey, you like jazz piano which means you are committed to the struggle, eh?) AND memorization of scales and key signatures and "WHATALL(!)", but THEN... all music opens up, and you can hear and see that any piece you like uses key principles of theory (from different kaleidoscopic angles) cuz they work!) Remember, EARS came first, then theory. Don't fear theory, just get a grasp of it and to do that, buy Jeremy's books! (I've got two, gotta get Volume 2 of fundamentals just to make sure I didn't miss anything in case my previous teachers or my own attention lapsed.) And remember kids (I'm 63, I can say "kids')😄, just cuz you know theory doesn't mean that you have practiced enuf! (I missed this key point for YEARS, being cocksure theoretically but horrible as a pianist! And always looking at my hands! Which is rule number ONE, go by feel...I am embarrassed to say that it took me years to undo this bad habit!) I am continually finding ways to play and connect chords that I thought I knew! When you learned your native tongue, you just learned. The grammar part came in about 4th grade (US), and then we discovered that, "Oh, yeah, there IS a structure here, whoda thunk it?" Ever onward! Peace and love to all!

[@JeremySiskind]

Wow, thanks for the comment (or is this your novel? 😂)If a chord has a major third, the 11th will be only a half step away from the major third and so will form a clash. (e versus f for a C major). Even though we like lots of dissonances in jazz, this one is usually a step too far for most musicians.

[@StevenJacks]

Dude. Nice info. Love the premise, the analysis, and the reasoning behind it. I always assumed that you (as a pianist) have to provide everything, but this is clearly kind of grander-picture of the idea and allows people to do what they want from the framework. All of Me is quite detailed, but - as you said - this is basically the big idea in total, but hardly appropriate for single individual parts, and so performers (eg pianists) have to the interpret what they can glean from this to be their own parts. Keep this kinda thing coming. Great to see someone with so much experience talking about the advanced stuff.

[@JeremySiskind]

Nice! I’m glad you found it useful, Steven! I hope you’re well!

[@StevenJacks]

@@JeremySiskind Haha doing just fine, mon frere. :)

[@Brad4Ellis]

A few serious editorial quibbles: at 4:48, we pro jazz players would almost never voice the C7(b9) or the C7(#9) with the 5 included. Not since about 1950. Also, earlier in the vid, if you refer to C7, Cmin7 & CMaj7 as “all C7 chords,” you would give yourself away as a complete neophyte. Maybe our host explains it later in the video; I just had to stop and comment of these rather extreme irregularities. Other aspects of the video are very useful to the novice, I’m sure.

[@JeremySiskind]

Good points, Brad.

[@SolomonDouglas]

Hey Jeremy! A great lesson, as always. I just had two unanswered questions after your powerpoint presentation. First, in the "Autumn Leaves" example, I was waiting for you to explain why it is that while the C7 chord with D in the melody should be notated C9 (which you did explain), the Bb7 chord with G in the melody should not be notated G13. (This would have gone a long way toward explaining the difference between C9 and C13, which you teased in the title of the video but never addressed!) Second, I notice at 3:47 that you have a dominant chord containing the major 3rd, the flat 5th, and the natural 11th all in the same voicing. I would love to hear you talk about that pesky 11th! I'm sure it has to do with the voice-leading but I can't come up with a good example of how to resolve all three of those tones in a pleasing way.

[@JeremySiskind]

That’s a great question about the Bb7 versus Bb13. They certainly could have chosen to write that as a Bb13. I really don’t have a brilliant answer about why they notated one but not the other. Everybody makes choices based around what level of detail they want to include in the chart and which melody notes are most important to accommodate.

[@JeremySiskind]

Regarding the 11th - I suspect I was just “nicking” the side of that key and my hardware thought I was playing it. 🤷‍♂️

[@SolomonDouglas]

@@JeremySiskind When I'm writing a lead sheet, I include extensions from the melody in the chord symbols if I think they're important enough that they're part of the character of the tune, but that's a pretty hazy judgment call. :)

[@JeremySiskind]

Actually, I will take a guess at why these folks might have thought the C9 was crucial to notate but the Bb13 wasn’t! The C dominant chord (written as C9) is leading to Fminor and thus would frequently have a flat 9 (we usually lower the ninth of dominant chords leading to a minor chord). Therefore, they might have thought if *extra* crucial to define the natural ninth. 🤷‍♂️ but as I said before everyone has to make decisions about which notes are “worth it” to notate and which are not.

[@SolomonDouglas]

@@JeremySiskind I buy that. :)

[@cabijista1]

Good explanation. Though shouldn’t the Bb7 with the G in the melody be notated Bb13 for the same reason as the C9? I.e. if you just see Bb7 someone could potentially play Bb7#5 which would clash with the 13th in the melody.

[@JeremySiskind]

Ah! Great question! The answer is “maaaybe” but we can’t accommodate every single note so it’s only when we have a long note or one on the downbeat of a chord change that it tends to be notated. So because that note is somewhat fast and not aligned with the chord change it’s a little less essential…but some really detailed lead sheet writers might choose to include it. It’s a judgment call.

[@juanitarobinson817]

This was helpful; thank you. Would this advice apply across big band arrangers and eras? For example, should Nestico charts, and earlier charts (Glenn Miller or Artie Shaw, for example) also be interpreted this way?

[@JeremySiskind]

Generally, I'd say that the answer is yes. Piano parts do look very different depending on the arranger, so it's hard to give any kind of "blanket" statement other than that you really have to listen and make choices about how you interact with the band at all times.

[@leehayton]

That was an aha ! Moment for me - we are expected to add and # / b those upper extensions. 👍

[@JeremySiskind]

Awesome! I love that! Thanks, Lee.

[@alphaomega6062]

Light bulb moment! Thank you.

[@JeremySiskind]

I'm happy to hear that. Thanks for watching! 💡

[@je-pq3de]

*Benoit blanc voice* but why then, does the Bb7 Not say Bb13?

[@JeremySiskind]

That’s a great question about the Bb7 versus Bb13. They certainly could have chosen to write that as a Bb13. I really don’t have a brilliant answer about why they notated one but not the other. Everybody makes choices based around what level of detail they want to include in the chart and which melody notes are most important to accommodate. Actually, I will take a guess at why these folks might have thought the C9 was crucial to notate but the Bb13 wasn’t! The C dominant chord (written as C9) is leading to Fminor and thus would frequently have a flat 9 (we usually lower the ninth of dominant chords leading to a minor chord). Therefore, they might have thought if extra crucial to define the natural ninth. 🤷‍♂ but as I said before everyone has to make decisions about which notes are “worth it” to notate and which are not.

[@debrucey]

C7 is like, jazz. C9 is like, jaaazz. C13 is like, jaaaaaaazzzz.

[@JeremySiskind]

lol, well said!