Jim O’Rourke on the Samuel Andreyev Podcast

Composer, songwriter and all-round genius Jim O’Rourke talks to Samuel Andreyev about his music. Interview recorded 15 November 2023.
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[@kimcarsons7036]

be super great to have some timestamps with who he references. Jim is such a wealth of knowledge, generosity and humility

[@nathanwolf5066]

Very unexpected. This makes me want to see an interview with some of the members of US Maple

[@samuel_andreyev]

I only do the unexpected!

[@ejsrocket]

Good lord yes I wanna hear from US Maple. Huge fan

[@bryanvazquez2539]

"Punk Rock is a doorway". Love it. Even more as a fellow Chicagoan transplant who walked through that door as Jim was coming of age.

[@leeranaldo9776]

For me a knowledge of alternate tunings did not come from Branca, although the work he-and Rhys Chatham, etc-were doing certainly reinforced the idea of the pursuit of tunings and tuning systems once we discovered their work. I learned about altered tunings almost from the moment my 13-year old self started playing guitar, mainly because it was an expedient way to sound 'better' than one's skill level! I had an older cousin who showed me the open tunings used in - for instance - 'Suite:Judy Blue Eyes' and some David Crosby or Neil Young tunes. By my early college days I was studying and learning Rev Gary Davis tunes (probably via Jorma) and those of other blues + slide players working in open tunings,m. Also Leo Kotke (his first LP, '6 & 12-string Guitar' in particular) and, soon afterwards, John Fahey's records, sent me down a deep rabbit hole. Joni Mitchell, Keith Richard, and knowledge of-yes-Lou Reed's 'ostrich' tuning, all followed on from there. So I was conversant w many open tunings prior to working w Glenn. I'm not certain if Thurston had had much experience with open tuning's prior to exposure to Glenn's (etc) music, but he may have. In the early days of SY we had mostly cheap gtrs that wouldn't stay in tune so we were more prone to using them as noisemakers-either roughly tuned or 'detuned', sticks and screwdrivers under the strings, etc (only citing John Cage's preparations much later lol) and from that point on, certainly AT THAT POINT inspired by Glenn+Rhys, etc-we gravitated away from standard tunings completely. The main advantage of this, for us at that time, was: a) we liberated ourselves from standard chord patterns and structures - indeed, liberated ourselves from even knowing what key we were playing in oftentimes. We had to invent our chords, which forced us to LISTEN more rather than rely on a codified system of chords and lead patterns that every guitar player knows, and b) it caused our music to sound radically different to that of every other rock band at the time, who were all playing standard chords in standard tuning, further setting our music apart. Great interview with Jim!

[@samuel_andreyev]

Thank you Lee, this is a very valuable addition and very interesting. Would you have any interest in doing a podcast? [e-mail]

[@Ian-wk6up]

Only rarely does one encounter a person as "real" ( honest and humble ) as Jim O'Rourke ( in the artistic field or any other endeavor ). It was a pleasure encountering him on this podcast.

[@ghosttone44]

Fantastic podcast. So insightful. I have fond memories of seeing Jim O'Rourke at a Kim's video in the East Village back in the VHS rental days, performances soon after with Gastr del Sol at the Knitting Factory and a couple year's later with Derek Bailey's Company at Tonic. 90's New York.

[@chasetokutaro9850]

Excited to give this one a listen! Jim O' Rourke's ear for harmony and creatingly wonderfully unorthodox melodic juxtapositions is truly unique and on par with a Van Dyke Parks for me. The solo albums are undeniably great but I even loved what he contributed to Sonic Youth during quite arguably their most experimental and challenging period as a band.

[@movimentodoscacos]

Seriously, what an amazing conversation. Thank you so much, love seeing this kind of conversation, specially when both parts are very much equipped with the vocabulary and passionate knowledge about what they do and study. Much love and gratitude from Brazil!

[@samuel_andreyev]

Greetings to Brazil from Strasbourg!

[@user-DeadSelf]

Wow Jim's answer to the first audience question really hits the nail on the head for my own views. This interview is so good I'm going back just to take some notes on names for further studying and listening.

[@crysiscore2051]

of all the things I expected to see on my KZbin feed, this is unhinged and absolutely incredible. phenomenal stuff!

[@Warp75]

Great to see you Jim & your well. Much love from London England

[@brotzmannsax]

What a great insightful interview of this over looked guitar great, one of my favorites is him playing with Keiji Haino and Peter Brotzmann on " Two City Blues " Live in Tokyo.

[@plurimon8636]

The albums of trio - Haino/O'Rourke/Ambarchi - are my absolute favourite collaborative projects of all three of them. I very much hope they reunite for a bit more

[@ephre]

he is a great guitarist, but he's a genius producer/engineer.

[@RobertMunro-wb6jb]

My favourite is electric dress . With merzbow & carlos giffoni

[@nickeliope]

Fascinating conversation guys, especially regarding the creative process. Thanks for sharing Samuel and Jim!

[@hansdado]

viva la jim

[@jonzaremba]

I couldn't be more different than O'Rourke but still enjoyed eaves dropping on your chat.

[@stevealleman9206]

O'Rourke: "I don't want to express ME in what I do." Thank you!

[@ronmadigan1911]

Lot of genuine mutual respect makes for an interesting exchange. Would love to see more especially about how the work is made. I don't think that necessarily involves a philo treatise. Is it: design an instrument to explore a technical problem, choose an input/cell then kick back with nihonshu and let it run? I think I hear more of an arc in most of the pieces. Anyway great interview more please,

[@nodadchad]

Just listened to Insignificance on vinyl today! Can't wait to listen to this.

[@ggo2000]

Two of my icons in a two-hour podcast 🤯🤯

[@hahatarachine]

Well said

[@ggo2000]

@@hahatarachine 💎

[@richardvernon9150]

Great interview Samuel! Great questions and very entertaining as well. Didn’t know Jim’s work but will now investigate. I discovered you because of your superb interview with John French and Harkleroad etc. Love your music too!! Fantastic work. Thankfully yours in Australia x🎶❤️

[@samuel_andreyev]

Thanks! Greetings to Australia from overcast Alsace!

[@Emlizardo]

Thanks so much for sharing this, Samuel. Listening to you both talk shop, at length, gets me excited to get back down to my own work. I first discovered Jim via a wonderful album he did with guitarist Henry Kaiser called Tomorrow Knows Where You Live, and he's kept popping up, Zelig-like, in my musical explorations ever since.

[@ganazby]

Wonderful interview with a fascinating artist. 🙏

[@MattLeGroulx]

GREAT interview. Thanks to both of you.

[@Smudge4199]

This is awesome really excited to watch this

[@bencaton1514]

I don't really know anything about music theory, but as someone with an interest in music, philosophy and language this was so interesting - an insightful glimpse into a very niche and intellectually rich corner of the musical world

[@MatthewEverettGates]

That was very interesting. So many objects beyond the doorway now open for exploring. Thank you for publishing this.

[@DavidComdico]

PS: even Duchamp said that the muse works through the artist, so not a purely Romantic notion. McGhilchrist describes this as the right brain’s capacity to work with large sets that is categorically different from our more common, Western logical Left brain. The mystification is problematic in some regards but it can also be seen as a protective shell. PPS: Jim is confusing expression with outburst. Dewey explains the difference by arguing a baby’s cry is not an expression, which is better described by the image of wine being expressed from grapes.

[@OngoingBox]

love to see so many jo interviews. another great one. psyched to see the music for merce boxset on the shelves.

[@DavidComdico]

Coleridge’s definition of the symbol, contrasted to allegory, is that it always remains itself. The rose never stops being a rose.

[@user-ks8ux4ig6b]

great conversation - I'd love a whole series of conversations between you and Jim

[@gryphonrue]

@2:05:00 the Deep Listening©️ discussion is interesting and delightfully funny in a way I hadn't heard dicussed publicly before. As you pont out listening to composers talk about other composers work is often more revealing about the person that when they talk about their own work. In this case it certainly was, in spades! Cheers!

[@briteness]

This is one of the most interesting conversations I have heard in a long time. It suggests many subjects for further inquiry, so much music I want to hear. And I would gladly spend another two hours listening to a Round Two!

[@Chatetris]

Watched this twice. I want another one with Jim sometime!

[@samuel_andreyev]

I think that is a possibility

[@Chatetris]

The two of you talking shop about new music and the mere mention of Trout Mask Replica had me listening to this when it came out and again yesterday. I also think Jim was much more candid in this interview than other interviews I heard him have. Wonderful work as always!@@samuel_andreyev

[@kurikokaleidoscope]

Very interesting. Thank you.

[@dariocaporuscio8701]

Great interview, so many interesting topics! It would be fantastic to have a list of the musicians he referenced, especially the electronic ones, because some of them are quite obscure and difficult to find without the correct spelling. But I know it would be a hard job to make the list for such a long video

[@samuel_andreyev]

I’m on it

[@dariocaporuscio8701]

​@@samuel_andreyevthank you so much for your work!

[@brotzmannsax]

@@samuel_andreyev I would love to see you do a review of the music & history of "Moondog" Louis Thomas Hardin, would love your opinion.

[@dancosleymusic]

"It is a mistake to talk about the artist 'looking for' his subject. In fact the subject grows within him like a fruit, and begins to demand expression. It is like childbirth . . . The poet has nothing to be proud of: he is not master of the situation, but a servant. Creative work is his only possible form of existence, and his every work is like a deed he has no power to annul. For him to be aware that a sequence of such deeds is due and right, that it lies in the very nature of things, he has to have faith in the idea, for only faith interlocks the system of images." - Tarkovsky, "Sculpting in Time"

[@m.brandao]

Legal demais, Samuel! Muito boa entrevista! Surpreendente os caminhos tortos da comunicação e linguagem. Gostei muito da cadência das ideias e os temas que se projetaram entre tantas referências mencionadas.

[@__stillpoint]

Late commenting here but listening for my second time: great interview. Really great to hear him speaking in a broadly new music / modern composition context (the Another Timbre disc aside he doesn't generally get situated that way). Draws out things i haven't seen him discuss elsewhere in quite this way - like the genre stuff. Thanks

[@josephtravers777]

Quite whimsical and interesting. Thank you 👍

[@saltynotbitter4557]

This interview is awesome!

[@MrFreedomGotAnAK]

Wow incredible

[@tomaswolf4777]

this is great

[@freddie2119]

Fifteen years ago there was barely any interview material from Jim O'Rourke, bar in some occasional small corners of the internet. His record lists that are probably still out there were instrumental for me at the time, - for introducing me to the likes of Luciano Cilio ("Dialoghi del presente") and Giusto Pio ("Motore Immobile"), and Keiji Haino, - not to mention how O'Rourke has since taken on the role of an archivist for remastering works long-forgotten, which I think makes him a genuinely important figure for music preservation. I vividly remembering reaching out to people for copies of his works that weren't available, and how close-knit the community was around trying to find them. Why someone hasn't already made a documentary about his approach to music with the Steamroom series in Tokyo is just beyond me. If ever there was a figure needing someone to document, it's Jim O'Rourke.

[@leahthirion4471]

Yaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[@orchestratedpassage9468]

Wow. Thanks guys.😁

[@kelechi_77]

Damn I'd love an interview with Mayo Thompson of Red Krayola, one of the groups Rourke was briefly in during the 90s

[@suppliolistico9452]

MERCI!!

[@danieloduntan1983]

Great interview

[@richardvernon9150]

Nice to hear Trout Mask mentioned again! You know it’s deleted from Apple Music?!? Anyway an interview with Van Dyke Parks or Mike Keneally would be fantastic with your thoughtful and insightful questions. Love your new release xx

[@samuel_andreyev]

I interviewed VDP already..

[@richardvernon9150]

@@samuel_andreyev oh I didn’t know! Where can I hear this?

[@JOTGOOD]

@@richardvernon9150 on this channel

[@teixeiro]

OMG!

[@samuel_andreyev]

ha ha now you won’t be able to go to sleep until you’ve seen it

[@marlon3]

thanks for this

[@dinginternet5199]

very cool

[@richardvernon9150]

I found it!! Sorry mate. I won’t another you any more. Love In Glow!!!! Hope vinyl will be available in Australia. We are a bit slow haha xx🎶🐵❤️

[@samuel_andreyev]

Thanks! The vinyl should be available (as an import) worldwide..

[@samuel_andreyev]

Hey the vinyl is available now and it's a beautiful set, it can be ordered from me if you want one :) just drop me an email

[@henriknielsen8305]

Daaamm nice. Gonna need timestamps for this

[@samuel_andreyev]

Working on it.

[@henriknielsen8305]

Epic @@samuel_andreyev

[@HighsmithPsy]

interview kyle gann next!!! :0

[@sylviebarkley]

Woah. Legendary

[@enjoylife6374]

o coool, great!

[@guest_informant]

1:08:00 "Inspiration" doesn't have to be divine. Lots of artists talk about being conduits for their work, I don't think it necessarily follows that it's being handed down from on high :-) A very good example is the TED Talk where the speaker relates a story of a poet who was working in the fields, saw a poem coming over the horizon, raced inside to get it down on paper before the poem disappeared, grabbed the tail of the poem as it passed her, then wrote the poem out, but wrote it out backwards, because that is how she was now experiencing it. It's 9:59 into Elizabeth Gilbert's Talk.

[@guest_informant]

1:01:00 Sports analogy. Footballers, for instance, interviewed after a game often have little or nothing to say about how they performed. It's almost natural to want to ask someone who was, or is, in the middle of events what they think, but there's a wildly misplaced presumption that they are going to be able to tell you. Producing art (or football) is an entirely different skill from analysing art (or football)? Some people can do both, but they are few, and far between?

[@temporoboto]

💙

[@adamwoolf969]

regarding non linear time and music never really thought about it until your discussion but on a personal level suddenly realised that is part of the magic of Bach and Van Vliet and even some free improv when polyphony and structure go wild and fold in on itself Ferneyhough goes to great lengths to play with it all but as beautiful as the results can be very often just laboured in comparison - it's just my opinion dude ; but nevertheless I;m right

[@gulcinyuksel4129]

Woahh I wasn't expecting to see Jim O'Rourke on this channel. I feel like he isn't very well known in contemporary classical circles. I'm wondering if you like Sonic Youth now!

[@samuel_andreyev]

Well, I don’t think of myself as a contemporary classical composer.. love Sonic Youth, of course :)

[@guest_informant]

1:21:00 Non-linear time in music. What about returns to refrains? I don't know much (or anything) about the music he refers to, but the Wedding Present song So Long, Baby has three different tunes intermingled. I suppose, though, they do all go from start to finish. Are there any pieces of music which, like many other works of art do, open with the ending, and then go on to tell us how we got there? Could you argue that even basic verse, chorus, verse, chorus, ... is non-linear, with the choruses being static?

[@DSoverPSP]

Not sure how much this counts but there's certainly some concept records that start at the end before flashing back and building things back up. For example, Between the Buried and Me's Parallax II: Future Sequence starts with "Goodbye to Everything" where the protagonist's planet is about to crash into the sun, and then the next several songs all the way up to that are the complicated series of events that led up to that, at some points reaching back to story events from the first Parallax EP or even one of the songs from the record before that. I still haven't really gotten my head around the story yet but they do seem to jump around in time a lot and their music can take you on a pretty wild journey whether you're following the narrative or not.

[@guest_informant]

@@DSoverPSP I don't know this record at all, but it definitely sounds non-linear :-) The more l think about this linearity of music, the more I wonder if that is, in fact the case. Clearly books and films, for instance can be, and are, easily non-linear, but is "A Day in the Life" linear? Is "Bohemian Rhapsody" linear? I wonder what Jim would day to that?

[@cpi23]

2 hours? No way I'm watching that *scene missing* oh my god where did the time go what just happened

[@samuel_andreyev]

☺️

[@guest_informant]

1:25:25 Beautiful but entirely impractical ideas - This sounds like the difference between chess games and the whole other world of composed chess problems :-)

[@mikrophonie5633]

I wish I could see what all those CDs are behind him.

[@tinypeas]

no fucking way its jimbo!!!!!

[@ephre]

phase cancellation in the digital realm is cool and accurate.

[@roachboy8583]

Composers/Artists mentioned 37.00 ?

[@timothydaly7603]

I've seen people with that many CDs in the background but his ratio of jewel cases to overall CDs seems astonishingly low.

[@derekmonypeny9757]

You reference Eric "Intellectual Dark Web" Weinstein in this interview, and I see on your channel that you've done multiple shows with Jordan Peterson. Wondering when we'll get Ben Shapiro's take on "Lick My Decals Off"

[@samuel_andreyev]

Ha ha could be a while

[@isahellamurad1559]

*Promosm*

[@guest_informant]

Webern and non-linearity :-)

[@AEMachinas]

The hipsterism and nihilism of O’Rourke fails to land “cool”. Great interview though.

[@dariocaporuscio8701]

What does this even mean

[@ggo2000]

Did you miss the part of the interview where he denounced the nihilistic attitude of the 80s-90s Japanese noise scene as juvenile? Also, what exactly gave off the impression that he was posturing or going out of his way to seem “cool” or “hipster”? Because frankly in O’Rourke I see a very mature understanding of being as modest towards his craft as he is passionate

[@hahatarachine]

I'm not sure that I see what you mean. In what way did you feel that O'Rourke presented himself as a nihilistic hipster? But yes, a fantastic interview.

[@samuel_andreyev]

Jim’s not a nihilist, nor is he a hipster. The man is completely committed to his art. True nihilists don’t make commitments :)

[@kimcarsons7036]

@@samuel_andreyev So True. He comes across as genuine in every way. I always loved how he talked about meeting Derek and how thankful he was. It reminds me of my friend Jim Denley who also told me stories of visiting and playing with Derek in his house......The moment when you say what a beautiful album hands that bind is, (which i have coming in the post!) is gold. He is even kinda bashful, the way he turns his head and shies away from attention. True Humility and a brilliant artist and musician!