Joan of Arc is an Existential Hero

[@FilboBagginz]

Interesting video. IDK much about existentialism, but I'm a Catholic with a devotion to St. Joan of Arc and think you may appreciate this tidbit from G.K. Chesteron on her "Joan of Arc was not stuck at the cross-roads, either by rejecting all the paths like Tolstoy, or by accepting them all like Nietzsche. She chose a path, and went down it like a thunderbolt. Yet Joan, when I came to think of her, had in her all that was true either in Tolstoy or Nietzsche, all that was even tolerable in either of them. I thought of all that is noble in Tolstoy, the pleasure in plain things, especially in plain pity, the actualities of the earth, the reverence for the poor, the dignity of the bowed back. Joan of Arc had all that and with this great addition, that she endured poverty as well as admiring it; whereas Tolstoy is only a typical aristocrat trying to find out its secret. And then I thought of all that was brave and proud and pathetic in poor Nietzsche, and his mutiny against the emptiness and timidity of our time. I thought of his cry for the ecstatic equilibrium of danger, his hunger for the rush of great horses, his cry to arms. Well, Joan of Arc had all that, and again with this difference, that she did not praise fighting, but fought. We know that she was not afraid of an army, while Nietzsche, for all we know, was afraid of a cow. Tolstoy only praised the peasant; she was the peasant. Nietzsche only praised the warrior; she was the warrior. She beat them both at their own antagonistic ideals; she was more gentle than the one, more violent than the other. Yet she was a perfectly practical person who did something, while they are wild speculators who do nothing. It was impossible that the thought should not cross my mind that she and her faith had perhaps some secret of moral unity and utility that has been lost. And with that thought came a larger one, and the colossal figure of her Master had also crossed the theatre of my thoughts." from Orthodoxy As someone else said, I do think it difficult to separate her decisive action from her devotion to the Catholic faith, which can be seen in her opposition to soldiers being prostitutes and threatening the bohemian hussites (not that that contradicts what you said, but I feel it paints a more full picture of what she did). anyway, God bless, appreciate the video

[@ExistentialHeroesAndFigures]

Hi Filbo, I've read some Orthodoxy myself, but it has been a while. Thanks for sharing the passage. I had forgotten it, and I think my exposure to Joan was about as low as the worldly highschool I went to allowed me to have. I especially liked this quote you shared : "Nietzsche only praised the warrior; she was the warrior." That is SOOO true. It's what I was getting at in the part where I said: Ain't it strange we consider people existentialists based on what they wrote and not what they did ? I've read a couple of GK Chesterton's works and am surprised he was so familiar with Nietzche. That seems like waay out of bounds for what he found acceptable. Good for him though, and I'm inclined to agree with what he said. With Tolstoy I've only read Anna Karenina. Existentialism is basically just a fancy way of referring to spirituality. I think a good conversation could be had about whether the protestants, catholics, or orthodox folks were more spiritual, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it depended on the person. If you had asked Joan what she thought about Martin Luther, she probably would have had some enigmatic, profound way of saying she never heard of him. I think of Joan as being very Catholic in many respects (especially sacraments and confession and something I'm big on : devotion), but there is one major departure that others (Kathryn Harrison, although not the best referee) have noted and was grilled about at her trial in Rouen. She was asked with all the church hierarchy and all the government hierarchy why God would choose to speak to her, and she said God chose an illiterate peasant girl to overcome the armies to show His awesome power. In this sense she was closer to Luther. In any case, I don't evaluate the spirituality of Joan based on how Catholic or how Protestant she was, but she was a follower of Jesus for sure and more spiritual than any of the people considered "existentialists" (save Kierkegaard). Thanks for sharing ! Let me know if there are any other saints you're drawn to. It's kind of a new world for me, and I'm loving it ! :)

[@r4_in_space]

I like to see Saint Joan being a subject of discussion, but, as a Catholic myself, I don't think that it is fair to disassociate her heroism from Christianity. True, the Church didn't really help her that much (an English Bishop did order her to be burned alive, even though he was acting not on behalf of the Church, but of the English crown, therefore on behalf of "kill Joan under any circumstance", that's why the charges against Joan were lifted), but it was not out of individuality or rebellion that she acted against the counsel's wills. Rather, it was out of love for them and for the Father. For them, following the example of Jesus, and for the Father, giving herself up to Divine Providence. And she did it all without hurting her womanhood. Now, I'm still young and probably studied way less than you, so I would need to go way deeper into Existentialism to have a good discussion on this, but I really think that Joan is not a complete hero outside the context of Christianity.

[@ExistentialHeroesAndFigures]

Thanks for lending your perspective. Before I delve into how heroism relates to Christianity (I'll touch on the Catholic aspect as well), I agree that the Church in regard to the English bishop you mentioned (was it at Rouen ?) but I'm not sure any of that trial was the church as even Kathryn Harrison (who hates the Church btw) notes it was staged by the British military to look like the church, but that bishop's boss had already pronounced Joan full of purity at Poitiers. I didn't get into that irony in the video (didn't see the existential in it, although irony often is). I was not trying to disassociate her heroism from Christianity. Perhaps because I said I couldn't call her "existential" just because she was on the theist side of existentialism, you perhaps thought I was saying her faith wasn't leading her to do this. Kierkegaard claims in The Stages on Life's way that radical action (i.e. in what he calls "the religious sphere") is necessary for someone serious about avoiding despair. I hear something in your comment that reminds me of Jesus saying, "Apart from me, you can do nothing." Which means what you said is hard to OVER state if anything. That being said Joan's motivation was "out of love for them and the Father", but this became a very person / individual love. She imposed it on her life and her actions. The voices were not going to force her to do them, and at a couple places she disobeyed them (although of course, her track record is pristine compared to my own). If anything I'm trying to get people to see the existential aspect of Christianity. Nietzche pledged to "destroy" his ex-girlfriend but he gets lauded as an existential hero ... one mistake I'm not going to make here, heh. The Catholic thing is interesting. I could talk about it for a while. I think we Prots have overlooked the importance of devotion, and that's why Prots need to watch videos like this more than you. Another implication is I need to start learning about the saints !! Thanks for reading my novel :D Please recommend your favorite Catholic saints so I can study (and maybe present) them here.

[@redcapetimetraveler7688]

try Saint Martin of Tours another hero in his devotion @@ExistentialHeroesAndFigures

[@JJ-snee]

@@ExistentialHeroesAndFigures st Augustine of Hippo is my favorite saint, would recomend him and his book "Confessions"

[@piggysew797]

I could be wrong but didn't the people who ordered for Joan to be burned eventually get excommunicated from the church?

[@meilaoshi9439]

St. Thomas Aquinas is a HUGE philosophy influence. St. Thérèse of Lisieux also had a very interesting outlook!

[@minifox3603]

Great stuff man, saint Joan was most definetly a hero.

[@ExistentialHeroesAndFigures]

Indeed. Hard to disagree.

[@angelawilliams9912]

She's my hero. She had Great Faith in God. She got the job done.

[@ExistentialHeroesAndFigures]

Yes! She had great faith in God, and under the pressure of the battlefield and her trials, her faith gave her a lot of unique responses and a perspective that people struggle to find today.

[@cannibalisticvegan8461]

I just found your channel and its really good, me and my friend havent read on Joan quite yet but we hope to do so in the future for our shared channel. This video on her existential character is a good insight and I love your other videos, I hope to see a Soren video in the future!

[@ExistentialHeroesAndFigures]

That's great ! I think you'll get a lot out of learning about her life. Even if you pick the awful book I did (Kathryn Harrison). Thanks for your encouraging words. I already had Soren on my list of people to do, but I just added a votes column and put yours on it :)

[@ifinallyfoundajobformoz]

This channel is one my favorite finds

[@ExistentialHeroesAndFigures]

Wow ! Thank you, sir. What did you like about ? Anything I should be sure to include for next time ?

[@empireofwisconson1266]

I literally subscribed because of this when a KZbinr actually responded is awesome keep up the good work

[@ExistentialHeroesAndFigures]

​@@empireofwisconson1266 Welcome aboard ! I didn't know response comments were so rare.

[@JoaoPaulo-zd2qj]

this was in my recommended. interesting proposal.

[@ExistentialHeroesAndFigures]

Thank you, sir ! Let me know if there are any interesting people that you would like to see looked into as existential heroes.

[@d.v.184]

I didn't really understand the full video (im not very good at philosophy) but your arguments seems good, thank you, you did a video on one of my favourite saints❤

[@ExistentialHeroesAndFigures]

@d.v.184 : Thanks ! A lot of this is me trying to understand things that may be too great or marvelous for me. Yet I think spiritual truth is something for each of us and accessible to all at least. I'm interested in doing another video about a saint. As a protestant, I didn't get much exposure to their stories growing up. Can you share the names of a few of your other favorites ?

[@cartcurt5004]

I think she is A tier at best

[@ExistentialHeroesAndFigures]

Interesting. You didn't find her very existential ? Or she just seems overrated to you ? Any particular reason(s) ?

[@smorgffmn]

She is my Roman Empire

[@ExistentialHeroesAndFigures]

Better to have a single solid life than a mass of mediocrity.

[@hamish8790]

@@ExistentialHeroesAndFigures damn you're good

[@ExistentialHeroesAndFigures]

@@hamish8790 Thanks. Easy to aspire to the highest, but the only one to pull it off is the Highest

[@ColasTeam]

I don't know much about existentialism, but this video was weird, you're taking the pseudo mythological versión of Joan of Arc, a character constructed by the crown of France, at face value. Most historians would tell you the real Joan of Arc didn't do or said half the things attributed to her, and military historians agree she was generally a very poor commander and not really the one who should be credited with the french victory.

[@ExistentialHeroesAndFigures]

I'll grant you the weird part if you take the pixelated cats into account, but the skeptic historian I referenced (Kathryn Harrison) so frequently confirms the amazing parts. The primary sources were sure that something supernatural explained many of the things going on. You will see nothing wonderful if you rule it out.