Joe Fisher’s Hungry Ghosts! (Guides, Mediumship, Channeling) - Jimmy Akin's Mysterious World

[@michaelmullard4292]

Jimmy: As a Catholic mental health professional, THANK YOU for disseminating the new 988 phone number for mental health crises. Great episode!

[@nightyew2160]

I have seen an ad for it in Spanish. It is nice to know it is for English speakers as well.

[@johnthecatholic914]

I'm always impressed about how structured Jimmy explains the arguments

[@SasquatchPrays]

This is by far my favorite episode of Mysterious World. Had me captivated from beginning to end (Part 1 and 2). Thank you for the entertainment as well as the rational and reasonable breakdown.

[@nightyew2160]

May God bless your work of analyzing mysteries from the twin perspectives of faith and reason. May St. Michael protect you. May the souls of the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace.

[@victoriabiel5861]

I read Joe Fisher's book, Hungry Ghosts, way back in the early 90's and have never forgotten it because it was so different from the other paranormal books written at that time. I had no idea that he lived in Fergus which is a town next to where I live. I think I'd like to go there to the Elora Gorge where he committed suicide and say some prayers for his soul.

[@nightyew2160]

Wow, it is so special that you can pray in the actual place.

[@mercedesaschenbrenner9352]

Please do so, I’m assuming you are Catholic, also please offer couple of Holy Masses for his soul.

[@writerforlifeify]

I still have a hardcover copy of Hungry Ghosts, published in 1990, in my personal library; this is the only book that ever genuinely frightened me when I read it. And it haunts me to this day. I feel grateful to Joe for the lengths to which he went & all the risks he incurred to uncover first, the existence of 'hungry ghosts' (the 'lying spirits') & second, the truth about them--which cost Joe his life. As I'm looking at the book now, I'll share Joe's dedication: This book is dedicated to my dear mother, Monica, who has always insisted that demons do exist. Here are the quotes prefacing the book's Forward: But 'tis strange: And oftentimes, to win us to our harm, The instruments of darkness tell us truths, Win us with honest trifles, to betray us In deepest consequence. ~William Shakespeare, Macbeth: Act 1; Scene 3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but test the spirits...because many false prophets are gone out into the world. ~1 John 4:1-3 On page 279, Joe cites spiritual teachers who assert that "higher beings are silent--they simply radiate knowing and love. As a general spiritual law, no enlightened being would speak through an ordinary human. The discarnate spirits who are making themselves known through channelling are united in their desperate need for love. Their audience is a generation that is also hungry for love." I so wish I could ask Joe Fisher what he thinks of Abraham, that discarnate entity that uses Esther Hicks as its mouthpiece, always presenting (or hiding) itself as a collective (we). Both Abraham & Seth speak incessantly about the Law of Attraction & their content closely parallels that of countless mortals on the same subject BUT it is delivered through mediums! Where is the harm?

[@cw4821]

Chilling. I never thought I’d be spooked by a podcast 😅 excellent story telling and discussion, thank you!

[@anonymouscrank]

As George Costanza famously observed, "If you're a spirit, and you can travel to other dimensions and galaxies, and find out the mysteries of the universe, you think she's going to want to hang around Drexler's funeral home on Ocean Parkway?"

[@anthony-kelly]

🤣👍

[@anthonyjamieson3875]

Agreed!

[@adasgigulka7389]

Just finished listening to this at work. Cant wait to come home to my wife's evil twin who i have no previous evidence of serving me a poisoned meal to collect insurance money. Love the episode.

[@MochaMintz]

Gotta love that insurance money

[@christenh359]

Holy Smokes! I'm only halfway through but I'm getting some SEVERE heebie-jeebies. This would make for such a great late-October episode. It's so creepy!

[@Kermlyfe]

Jimmy nails it again. Dude, I only wish more people of faith were like you, I'm no believer but you are a credit to all of those who are.

[@ms1963IsGo]

Two possibilities occurred to me as I listened intently to these episodes. Firstly, I think the theory that Joe Fisher was a fraudster is still a valid one. As someone who writes fiction and has a vivid imagination, it's possible to weave both complex fiction and convincing lies. The desire for attention in some can be a strong driver especially once you’ve achieved notoriety. The need for continued success (or simply the fear of poverty) can realistically drive a person to spin a complex yarn. In fact, one of his previous books had a preface written by the Dalai Lama and before becoming an author, Fisher saw success as the youngest news editor in England. I think just because his book may have upset those in the new age movement at the time it could (and did) sell well and reach a wider audience (he apparently did hundreds of interviews). That being said, I’m certainly not convinced this is the answer, but a realistic possibility. As for the other possibility; like you, I’m not a qualified mental health professional and I would agree we cannot assess his state at the time. But, by observation and experience, certain facts lend themselves to theorizing and having drunk deep from the college of life (how’s that for a mixed metaphor?) certain signals part way through the first episode brought to mind schizophrenia. It’s a complex and highly heritable disorder whose onset causes one to hear voices, suffers psychosis, delusions, hallucinations, paranoia, and disordered thinking, often while the victim remains highly functional. I wondered about this and while hearing of his tragic end in the second episode, more connections to schizophrenia arose. Joe Fisher later experienced a severe inability to work and stay focused on his writing and he developed paranoia with the idea that spirits were attacking or pursuing him. There may even be a connection between his Omphalitis and Schizophrenia. I just don’t know, but in the scheme of things, none of this really matters. As you discussed, we have an opportunity to pray for the soul of Joe Fisher and all those who have died by suicide. God is mercy.

[@MsTypecase]

Thank you for this episode. A lot of people are caught up in this stuff (I was). As soon as I turned away from it, the whatever-they-are-beings turned really nasty really fast, including some terrible things that are similar to the sad ending here. Had to pause the video when Jimmy requested that we pray for those who have committed suicide and prayed with tears in my eyes.

[@markiangooley]

I’m thinking of an old joke used by I think a character in P. G. Wodehouse: two men, Nichols and Jackson, died in so violent an accident (collision of two carts? Railway?) that the remaining body parts are so meager that they’re barely enough for one man… so they bury the remains under the name Nixon. Another literary reference: G. K. Chesterton wrote in his autobiography about his experiences in his youth with the planchette, what most people nowadays would call a Ouija (TM) board or to avoid the trademark a spirit board. He wrote that he didn’t know what entities caused the phenomena he’d experienced, but whatever they were, they told lies.

[@mrs.y]

I really hope next week is a lighter topic, like an alien invasion or maybe there is a story about haunted root canals and how they cause the person to levitate or something. These two were heavy and painful. I'd even love one about a haunted piano falling on a roadrunner in a canyon that is surrounded by the blue orbs from the Skinwalker ranch. Also I'm praying for all the victims of these hungry ghosts. Goodness gracious.

[@MartinaStC]

I thank God more and more than I can recieve to eat and drink the body of His Son, Christ Jesus in the Eucharist and recieve His protection 🙏🙏🙏 Praise and Glory to the Trinity for ever.

[@adammihailov8315]

I live near Elora. My wife, kids I took some family photos at the bottom of the gorge a few years ago. Looking at those photos now isn't going to be the same. I've been to the exact spot of the gorge that is pictured in the article on Fisher's death.

[@orion_red7447]

What a fascinating two episodes. Great work guys!

[@CamiloSoares87]

Great audiodrama

[@vivacristorey4363]

Captivating story. May God have mercy on the souls of all those you mentioned; especially those in most need, and grant them a good, happy, and holy death - past, present, and future. I don't think that poor holy souls from purgatory would be even a slight possibility in this case. Why? Because, although it is possible for God to allow some of them to do their purgatory on earth, they are sealed in grace - meaning no longer able to commit sin. Manipulation is a sin. Yes, they need to be purified, but they would not be trying to lead others into doing evil.

[@charbelbejjani5541]

Excited for the next episode

[@yvonnestyer7197]

I really enjoy these shows! Thank you! ❤😊

[@andyy890]

Hey Jimmy, do you think the soul/entity distinction could fit into the conscious fraud hypothesis? If Aviva hadn’t researched an individual/place recently, she could simply fall back on the “well, you’re only a soul, so I can’t give you a guide” excuse.

[@clarekappenman5564]

I loved this episode!! Very satisfying and creepy. Somewhat relatedly, I wonder what Jimmy thinks of two investigatory approaches that I hear a lot about - Occam's Razor that the simplest explanation is the most likely to be true, and Karl Popper's falsification, which (as I understand it anyway) holds that you should not bother to look for evidence that confirms a hypothesis but instead only look for what would disprove it. I just was curious whether these two approaches are employed or debated in paranormal research; some people in the new atheist world seem to think just declaring a claim to be "unfalsifiable" makes the claim... false(??), or at least less likely to be true. But Jimmy gives balanced time to exploring reasons for as well as reasons against all claims, and I noticed he was open to the multifactorial explanation for Joe's experiences, which seems to go against Occam's Razor. Would love to hear a more detailed discussion of the various investigatory approaches out there!

[@pinknickelvidz]

Love you guys! Great job.

[@raymk]

riveting story indeed

[@nealmaxwell7680]

Great job!!!

[@kevinwynn6582]

I can't wait for the episode on dybbuks 🙂

[@ladysaffire4006]

I really enjoyed this

[@JustineBrownsBookshelf]

This lines up with my experience as a kid. The “entities” people encounter via the Ouija board etc are bored and malevolent liars.

[@andyfisher2403]

I really enjoy your content

[@kimfleury]

it occurred to me in regards to the false information that -- if it's was demons -- then it's possible that God blocked the demons from giving accurate information. However remote a possibility that might be, I have to consider it because of a Prayer for Protection by the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ, which I regularly pray. I live in a location where there is much discord, and regardless of whether it's demons causing it, I have no doubt that demons love that stuff. So I ask that Jesus cover my home with His Precious Blood, and seal the perimeter around my home for a distance of 200 yards in every direction. It's an old prayer, and I'm not sure why that number was chosen, but I go with it. The next part of the prayer asks Jesus to render deaf, mute, and blind every demon that enters within the perimeter. It's not literal deafness, muteness and blindness, but more like making me and everything pertaining to me be no more than background noise that is ignored, unnoticed, so they don't hear me or see me, and can't speak about me or anything pertaining to me. There's also another prayer for protection that asks God to send the demons into confusion regarding anything pertaining to the person who requests protection through the prayer. I'm not sure I'd settle for that explanation in this case, but it's a possibility, even if nobody in the group was praying for protection.

[@guesswho22peekaboo]

1:43:33 Another thing that made me think it wasn't demons was the fact that they used the name of Jesus. Demons do not like saying the name of our King and as I understand it, they avoid it at all costs. Not only that, I'd expect them to be far more vain and show off more. At least some level of infestation in Joe's house would be expected for contacting them this much.

[@tritongeeves9371]

I've visited Elora Gorge, as a weekend day-trip during my winter semester of University this year. It was interesting by the geological standards of the Guelph-Wellington region, which is to say, rather lame. A small park featuring a river, running through a relatively shallow limestone gorge which I assumed only locals might occasionally visit when they had nothing else to do, and which the province charged people to enter as a cash grab. Never in a thousand universes did I imagine *anything* of significance would've happened there, let alone a string of suicides connected with a series of bizarre possessions by apparently manipulative self-proclaimed historical spirits, which would be featured on THIS PODCAST. Reality is truly stranger than fiction sometimes. (I did see a mink for the first time at Elora Gorge though - Go figure.)

[@maryvalent961]

So interesting!

[@Wildwest89]

This whole story I’m like this is such an obvious bad idea why on earth is this guy stiff talking to these creepy entities?

[@cr1513]

New Age romantic was told he had a ghost Greek waifu from the 1700s completely in love with him. I can understand the appeal, though I would’ve preferred ancient Greece 😂. He got super coldread by the mediums.

[@StanleyDaniels-eb9hd]

Like!

[@thephilosopherfromdixie7466]

"It's probably not demons because demons wouldn't make so many mistakes." I called it! In Catholic theology, demons are fallen angels. They are more intelligent and more knowledgeable than the most brilliant scientists and academics.

[@stephenedwards9931]

What if it's not a mistake? They got what they wanted in the end, and now we're scoffing at the idea that it could be demons because of their "inaccuracies."

[@davidhaith1725]

You write above: Last time, Jimmy Akin and Dom Bettinelli discussed Joe Fisher's mid-1980s experiences with spirit guide But where is the link please to the first time? There is a link I clicked on but it leads to a podcast of the same discussion

[@JimmyAkin]

Here is the link: kzbin.info/www/bejne/j4CUn3Wld81gp5o The opening of this episode is a clip from the previous one, but it's only to reintroduce the topic we talked about last time. That's why the opening clip of this one is in black and white, which is a standard TV convention for a flashback. I hope this helps, and God bless you!

[@mariegiselegirishya4056]

I think Joe may have been dealing with damned souls.

[@shellbackbeau7021]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Eva was possibly a fraud, but considering it was a two man act(because of Roger) but then the assistant was swapped out, either Roger was duped really hard himself, or was cockolded into his position. But then was the leukemia an act too? Alternatively, hungry ghosts can better accomplish that aspect at least. And Claire the medium sounds much more likely to be a hungry ghost encounter than Eva I think.

[@shellbackbeau7021]

Also, the encounters with the mediums and subsequent attack against the new age movement may have opened the spiritual door and rang the bell to get the attention of demonic forces that may have lead to the health crisis and/or quadruple su1¢Ide.

[@nightyew2160]

Yeah, I wish the author had double checked Aviva's illness. If that had been a fraud, it would have basically proven the spirits were a fraud since they treated the illness as real. Unfortunately, the author ruled out fraud on Aviva's part because he didn't think anyone could act so convincingly, so he probably never looked into that angle. If she was the fraud it makes it even creepier that her spirits were trying to break up a marriage and constantly get the husband to touch her.

[@CuriousMouseExploration]

I think #1 is the fact that we are told not to use mediums or participate in "conjuring" spirits because we as mere mortals never know who or what we will be dealing with. Also if "spirits" tell us to do anything against God's Way, we know not to listen to them, real or imaginary or hallucinated or fraudulent.

[@timothyjones6323]

Judging from his florid writing style and tendency to draw the most dramatic kinds of conclusions, Joe Fisher seems to have been highly suggestible and had a very active imagination. He was also writing a book, and Fisher's embellishing the narrative would be unsurprising in that context, even if he believed the overall story was truthful. I find it very likely that Fisher - given his credulity and his imaginative and dramatic personality - was deeply taken in by garden variety fraudulent channelers, and even after finding them out could not let go of the idea that he had been communicating with spirits.

[@timothyjones6323]

Even the mediums might have half believed some of what they said. We humans can have a surprising capacity to lie to ourselves.

[@annettegeorge209]

In 1977 I went to Tasmania Australia to go to Port Arthur and spoke to ghost

[@isoldam]

Would you care to elaborate?

[@annettegeorge209]

@@isoldam port Arthur was a convict colony

[@JDL9615]

The majority of suicides in America involve firearms. A great resource you should consider is Walk the Talk America. They are helping people everyday.

[@samuelrockseer7240]

I'm mostly posting here for the algorithm, but I will say that Jimmy gets the Canadian doctor shortage slightly wrong. There is no shortage of people wanting to be doctors in Canada. There are a relatively small number of medical schools (where doctors are trained) and they get way, way more applicants than they can possibly accept. People in Canada regularly want to become doctors so badly that they spend large amounts of money on international medical schools to come back to Canada and work. A second bottle neck is the number of residency spots (people training to be doctors have to graduate medical school and then complete a residency internship before they can practice medicine) which are also limited. Consequently it isn't so much supply of willing doctors the hoops which prospective doctors need to clear. Moreover, in the case of surgery, there's a third bottleneck: OR time. There's only so many hospitals, with so many operating rooms. You can scale the amount of surgeons up, but that won't actually lead to any more surgeries unless the ORs rose in number as well. Ultimately you're probably right that this is a consequence of socialized medicine. If a hospital is a profit driver, which I assume it to be in the US, then you'll have more hospitals. If it's a drain on finite resources (as it is in Canada) then you'll have fewer hospitals because those finite resources can only be spread across so many buildings. That means less operating rooms, less residency spots (as they often happen in the context of a teaching hospital), and possibly a Canadian medical association which more zealously limits entry into the profession (since more doctors means less of a cut for each doctor; think the Dark Knight). There are probably other factors as well.

[@HossJr]

"the stuff that bad dreams are made of"

[@jetc4332]

1:33:30 Whether spirits in heaven or purgatory want to communicate with the living is irrelevant. They are not free to do so. When this happens (and I do believe it does happen sometimes) it only does because God wills it. But we on earth should not seek to initiate communication with the departed (Deut 10:11) 1:39:30 Because God didn't allow them to produce accurate information that would confirm their lies

[@Troy701]

Thank you for pointing international listerners to their local suicide helplines.

[@markanderson535]

The whole time I was thinking that the 'guides' were demons, and as for the errors they made, I interpreted that to be a handicap imposed on them by God. Like the devil was limited to what he could do to Job, I thought that God was limiting what they could do this time too i.e. have access to some information but not to all-lest they be too impressive.

[@markiangooley]

Hungry ghosts sounds so Chinese… That Maddox sounds as real a Great War combatant as Snoopy of Peanuts fame was a flying ace of the same war…

[@hectorguillermopantalena8700]

En el libro "El rehén del diablo" del padre Malachi Martin hay uno o dos casos parecidos en que los caminos para engañar que usan los demonios son sutiles y extraños....y no tienen mucho sentido para nosotros, por otro lado.... funcionan hasta cierto punto, pero siempre tienen una oposición más sutil aún pero invencible de Dios, y en esos casos les impide incluso el engaño perfecto y las coartadas se deshacían con un poco de investigación

[@annewalter5024]

Whatever these guides were, they were clearly “negative” in nature. With the, seemingly, increased deception and confusion coming from various fields in our world today (fields that were once trusted), I can’t help but think that “evil” of some kind is working through or on more people than it has in the past. And the vast numbers of people believing these deceptions over long periods of time makes it appear as though something “negative” has taken hold of them, also.

[@paulahunter9900]

❤

[@myrrhsolace5875]

Well, this one is definitely not aliens.

[@juanramos2516]

didn’t expect the creepy joe biden whisper in the reason portion but hey it scared me so it’s on par for the episode

[@johnp9650]

I was a bit surprised at there being no mention of what scripture says about mediums. Seems like evil is always attendant in such situations. Do you treat this topic elsewhere?

[@stananders2333]

The episode about mediums covers it pretty well, 276, i think

[@pavman42]

Winner winner chicken dinner

[@Will-ge7ri]

If it wasn’t for Jimmy this would be so boring. It’s so obviously a medium with a library card and a laughably gullible journalist. I feel bad for this guy.

[@LauraSolomon-u3o]

Chad and Lori Daybell much?

[@camerond424]

This has to be demonic

[@bethanyjohnson8001]

I don’t think so

[@isoldam]

Jimmy, I understand you have strong opinions about 'socialized' healthcare. Healthcare is a complicated topic. I don't believe mini-rants do the subject justice. Personally, I'd rather deal with some bureaucracy than have poor people die for lack of care. I enjoyed the show, although it was super creepy!

[@DivineMercyCatechesis]

Fourth

[@FigaroHey]

The writing in Joe's book is ATROCIOUS. Agony to listen to, it's so terribly bad. I'll try to get through this...but quoting from the book makes Joe sound idiotic, or like a 15-year-old who is trying to show off by using words he doesn't understand because he is barely literate. "The distressing truth broke over me suddenly and serendipitously"? "My future seemed impaled...?" Dr Pinkerton's cry is "attenuated" in one quote and "prolonged" in another. "A gutshot cowboy in a frigid spaghetti western"? The illiteracy just keeps on coming. If it weren't so painful it would be hilariously bad. Author and journalist? Yeah, for the National Enquirer...

[@stephenedwards9931]

bit snobby but ok

[@isoldam]

I read the book years ago. The writing was a little florid, but not that terrible.

[@annezadra7871]

Can’t listen to this. Sorry, Jimmy. It’s too creepy