Up-Firing Atmos Speakers vs. Height Speakers vs. Reality

Do Up-Firing Speakers Work? Use headphones with these binaural demos and you be the judge! Go get your headphones, I'll wait....
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00:00 - Start
00:21 - Binaural Audio Explanation
02:28 - The Pioneer Up-Firing Speakers
02:42 - Preconceived notions about “bouncy house” speakers
03:37 - Understanding the Acoustics of the Room
05:16 - My Living Room 7.1.4 Layout + Issues
07:37 - Spatial Audio Calibration Toolkit
08:32 - SACT Torture Test in the Living Room
11:38 - Why the 2Khz dip is so important
13:14 - Why Andrew Jones designed up-firing speakers work so well
14:03 - The Dolby recommended upfiring module EQ
14:44 - My Studio 7.1.4 system tour
16:21 - SACT Torture Test in the Studio
18:48 - Garage Home Theater 13.1 Auro3D/ 7.1.4 Atmos Tour
20:14 - SACT Torture Test in Garage Home Theater
22:20 - Conclusion - Do Upfiring Speakers Suck?
23:46 - Adding Blu-tack Ears to the binaural head
24:13 - Why a generic target curve doesn’t work.
24:31 - SACT Torture Test system playback vs Reality
26:57 - An explanation of why & how upfiring speakers work
27:41 - Importance of dispersion characteristics
28:09 - Simulating the 2Khz dip to reduce localizability
28:43 - Narrow dispersion using flashlight
28:57 - The correct location for the height speakers
29:44 - Minimizing effects of Haas Effect
30:02 - Problematic ceilings and why upfiring can’t always work as well
30:22 - Upfiring precision vs height speakers
30:53 - Can you really bounce sound off a wall/ceiling?

[@TheReverendSlim]

I actually used a flashlight on the baffle of those speakers to see where the ceiling bounce was aimed, then a little mirror on an extendable pole to see where the reflected sound was going from there. You can use stick-on rubber feet to angle them slightly to get a more optimal bounce to where your seats are, but you don't want to angle them so far forward that you hear too much of the direct sound either. Glad you're getting some use out of them! Also wanted to say: A lot of people don't realize with upfirers that your AVR typically has a "distance to ceiling" parameter so it can account for the delay of the bounce. You want to measure from the center of the baffle of the upfirer up to the ceiling and plug that number in. If you have an older AVR that doesn't have that parameter, you can still do some careful tweaking of the distance/delay in the AVR to get the arrival times aligned well. Older AVRs without that parameter just used a default expectation of 8-10 foot ceilings. The Speaker Pairs section of SACT can help with either of these cases, because you can adjust the delays until you hear imaging between the two points - the adjacent speaker and the location of the bounce on the ceiling.

[@scruffkingman]

that's perfect idea low flat ceilings help bounce alot ...lol we try to eliminate or reduce reflection points but in this case it's encouraged

[@docbob1182]

…so is there some kind of acoustically reflective sheathing available to encourage this intention? I’mma about to staple some aluminum foil to my ceiling (much to the chagrin of my wife)…

[@scruffkingman]

@@docbob1182 well they do make aluminum ceiling tiles peel and stick kind

[@michaelsenko3177]

I have a 7.2.4 with the 4 up firing. They are all Klipsch Reference. It is very clear in video games and movies when the effect is isolated to something happening above you and the other channels aren't loud. It gets me every time and I love it.

[@BenjiGator23]

Fantastic video! I’ve been waiting for a video like this! And thanks Channa, now I can’t get that “Moving around the room song” out of my head 😂

[@bikdav]

This video was very interesting. I'm using up-firing atmos speakers in my "less than audiophile dream" room. I didn't find my atmos setup to allow me to absolutely hear things overhead like what some audiophiles would like to have you believe is ideal. BUT, with the atmos speakers enabled, it seems as though they substantially fill in the gaps that standard 5.1 leaves behind. For example, when I'm viewing a well recorded church service online, it sounds like I'm in the church live hearing almost all the things that you would expect to hear live. With standard 5.1, I can hear the sounds left, center, right and rear. But, the effect of sounding live is seriously missing.

[@BobFrostV]

Holy crap you put effort into this video. Props and I had a really great time watching. Thanks!

[@joentell]

Thank you. It took a while, but I enjoyed the process. I hope you listened on headphones. 🤓

[@mikeortiz2139]

I really like to see the experimentation type testing videos. Especially from people that know their stuff.

[@joentell]

I hope you got a chance to listen on headphones. The 2khz test was pretty cool. It's shocking how small head movements change the tonality of the sound.

[@mikeortiz2139]

@@joentell I did. I'll have to listen again at home. The built-in headphone jack on my work PC is super weak so everything is low volume.

[@rdasarihyd]

Very nice. This is one of the best videos and thanks for your effort in explaining this so easily

[@wells2671]

Another thing to note. If proper seating and speaker placement (of the Left and Right mains) can successfully produce a phantom center, there is no reason why atmos enabled speakers can't do the same with the space in between them. The object based approach is meant to be more convincing anyway. I remember Andrew Jones himself saying that he prefers this strategy because it's more emmersive. I've set up a number of atmos enabled systems, and all of them have worked really well.

[@duckduck8240]

Everytime I go play in my weekly pickup game I’m calling the ball “Mikey” 🤣

[@keepingupwiththejones2933]

Mikey😂😅. Joe you look like you gotten into really great shape. Hair game on 🔥🔥 as always. Nice job on the Christmas tree. 3:15 Joe whispering to Mikey 😂😅

[@joentell]

Thanks man! I gotta get INTO shape. The holidays are here.

[@davidshaw7799]

Thank you so much for this video! It was actually super helpful in my situation. Helped answer a lot of questions and alleviated some concerns I had.

[@nonothing9685]

Great video Joe, just watched through. I have elac upfiring speakers right now, and this is my general thoughts on upfiring. Much like your example at the end of the video with the light, once you attempt to bounce them off the roof, you lose most of the localization. That, plus the built in dip on those elacs, the upfiring speakers lose all sense of directivety for me. But they fill the room with ambiance and noise in a very unique way that is still pleasing. I've watched demo's with and without the upfiring speakers, and I never feel like something is coming down from above me, but it definitely feels like more stuff is just above and around me. It feels like it increases my bubble of sound.

[@joentell]

Keep in mind the location I said the sound is expected to come from. If you think the sound should come down from above you, you might be disappointed. As I've shown, the sound is supposed to sound like it's above the corresponding ear-level speaker. Does yours sound like it's doing that? Our Spatial Audio Calibration Toolkit helps verify that if you have it.

[@mfkhometheater7742]

I've thought about experimenting with a dipole speaker for up firing Atmos. It would need to be situated such that the main listening area is in the dipole null and it would need absorption underneath. That should definitely make it sound like its coming from the ceiling. I have plenty of space to put something in the ceiling in the theater so I don't really have a need for up firing but it should make for an interesting experiment.

[@scruffkingman]

I love how this set up is a "normal" house set up. How did you route your wires?

[@joentell]

Yes, a normal house with normal house wiring issues. Lots of fishing and patching required.

[@scruffkingman]

@@joentell it was not a sarcastic comment moat homes are open concept so it's a hard set up to make things work that's what I really loved about this video

[@joentell]

@@scruffkingman I didn't take it sarcastically. I agree 100%. I think people need to see normal rooms. Viewers have been telling me they're seeing more and more amazing dedicated theaters on YT, which I think is cool to aspire to. I just want them to know that there's a place in this hobby for everyone else who doesn't yet have a dedicated theater. The enjoyment is in the process of troubleshooting, being creative, and appreciating the result of your hard work.

[@scruffkingman]

@@joentell word exactly

[@rendroidz4680]

I have always appreciated your video when you do something like this. Letting us know that home theater is not only for the rich people with high end equipment. Thanks Boss.

[@joentell]

100% 👊😎 I just gotta call it like I see it.

[@taseti4803]

Upfiring atmos speakers create a different kind of a bubble sound than the in ceiling or mounted ceiling speakers bubble sound. All in all the real issue is source material and how much information is being sent to the atmos speakers. Im sure plenty of people who have atmos speakers increase the gain on the drivers so they could give themselves the best opportunities to actually hear the information being sent to them. Bigger drivers may help as well. The reality of home theater will always track back to the source material in my opinion. Some movies look fantastic with lack luster sound. Other movies look decent with incredible sound. Now how many Blurays and 4K blurays on the market provides reference picture quality and reference sound? Now how many of those reference blurays provide reference atmos mixes? Not to many, if any at all. Especially, from scene to scene during action sequences.

[@michael-4k4000]

Love you TechnoDad! Am happy you are doing so well!

[@wells2671]

I have a full Andrew Jones series Pioneer Elite speaker system which has the Atmos concentric drives built on top along with 4 SVS SB2000 Pro subs in my theater room, this set up works really well. I remember the "bouncy house" rants from that channel and always felt it was an unfair assessment which felt more like they were hating on the concept than actually analyzing the setup.

[@joentell]

I hear ya!

[@phildavis3105]

Love the basketball and your “regular folks” approach to discovering meaning differences. BTW, did you name the ball Wilson?

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Ima let you finish!!! Haha. I love it!

[@mivanp2185]

I was going to move my upfiring to front heights but im going to leace it for now and make some small adjustments thanks to the video .

[@keepingupwiththejones2933]

8:10 Channa busting in😂😅

[@tek9058]

it does work but mostly in EU, where every house has a concrete ceiling. and still it's maybe 30% of the effect you have with ceiling mounted speakers pointed at you. in ceiling is maybe 80% the effect. tweeters will not spread properly.

[@michael-4k4000]

Bought the ELAC Debut 2.0 A4.2 in December to put them on top of my Kef Q750 for a 5.1.2 setup. I dont hear much sound coming from the ceiling, but it does open up the sound stage a lot, and also the dialog seems louder or more pronounced. I have a Kef Q650 center channel speaker which is awesome, and use an Onkyo RZ-50. The Kef Atmos upfiring speakers are too expensive, thats i went wuth the Elac. This is first time ive ever used upwards firing speakers.

[@uwsome1]

I thought I was watching The Blair With Project @ 11:29 in the Video .

[@joentell]

Yup! I worked at the movie theater when that came out. 🤓

[@jamesdavisjr1086]

Nice video... On a different topic, i have tried over and over again to put my Marantz sr8012 in auro 3D , but I still don't seem to hear what you hear. You say that it sounds better than Atmos , I can't tell. What am I missing...

[@joentell]

Your height speakers should not be closer to you than your ear level speakers or it will not sound good.

[@TheLkdude]

Great video! fantastic Job! Beating the FUD!!!

[@andykurniawan4749]

Excellent video!!!❤❤❤

[@duckduck8240]

Thank you for showing a HT setup in a less than ideal room. Really helps alot

[@joentell]

I was inspired by TechnoDad's video about posting his new setup in a FB group. It would be great if I had a dedicated theater, but I enjoy watching in the ones I have now.

[@christopherwilson6825]

When it comes to sound , all that matters is your budget, and how it sounds to you. Good video.

[@kenshinesca]

Upfiring speakers are fine if your room is setup right for it. They work great for small rooms or a living room with a couch in the middle of the room, the problem is a lot of peoples couches are on the back wall and the upfiring sound hits in front of you. You can add more angle to some upfiring speakers to help with the problem. BTW I believe the rumor.

[@Boxkerp]

My up firing speakers with my Cinema 1200 soundbar did not work in my living room at all, but I have a popcorn ceiling in my living room, which many have said will not work. I had plan to trying them in my bedroom where I have just a flat ceiling, but the unit died on me.

[@Audiodreamer192-24]

Hey Ya they don’t work with stucco ceilings because it disrupts the compression waves. I have the same atmos modules Joe used in the video, they work as intended. Nothing is better then in ceilings speakers for atmos but Dolby enabled atmos does work. 🍻

[@mikeschmidt2339]

I have 8ft ceiling carpet finished basement not closed in do u think up firing will work for me also have in ceilings rears

[@joentell]

Seems like a good room to try it in.

[@mikeschmidt2339]

@@joentell thanks also what your take on the new Sony es line over a 4800h which is currently glitching

[@stevevanrusselt4739]

I'd buy the 'Moving round the room' Song.

[@jons9356]

🎵🎶🕺Moving, moving-moving, moving around the room...🕺🎵🎶

[@marxman00]

The accousic delay of a reflected sound and ambience of the listening space creates .... mono. Atmos is totally pointles

[@Iancresswell70]

I use some quite cheap elac upfiring Atmos speakers placed on top of the side surrounds. I also have an acoustically treated room but not on the ceiling. A British room so flat not that high ceiling. That seems like an ideal scenario for bouncy house speakers to work. And they do, to a degree. Not as good as directly placed speakers but still definitely worth it And given how little information is in the height domain it feels like the appropriate amount of effort

[@joentell]

I like what you mentioned about appropriate effort. It also has to do with our human inability to localize height effects with high precision.

[@Hi-levels]

Yes they work. Even on soundbars. I play COD on ps5 and when there is a spyplane(uav) drone, you literraly hear it above you.

[@georgestephens2038]

I have those exact dolby speakers, yes they do suck

[@Kev-O33]

i have 4 klipsch upfiring speakers. theyre a gimmick to me. they just blend with the speaker its on top of

[@joentell]

I haven't tested the Klipsch ones. It's very possible that some work better than others.

[@chefchutardo5215]

Good idea with that disc. But not sure i wanna hear a man saying he's moving around my room for 10 minutes 😆. Sure wish it would have been a simple beat or something.

[@joentell]

We have the same thing with pink noise. A voice is easier to track. The thing is that something needs to be spoken consistently. So that's what you get with the test track. The disc is not for enjoyment.

[@Mjaybird]

Living room with open floor plan. Does it sound good and how hard is it to match all your speakers? I am in a townhouse and I make my space work for 5.1.2. I do need better heights or upfiring like you have but don’t know what to get. I could go Jamo for my s809 towers

[@joentell]

Did you get a chance to listen with headphones? I'm curious to hear what you think.

[@Mjaybird]

@@joentell I did with JBL earbuds and I liked it when your eyes were closed. Made me want to get atmos speakers and try them out

[@alexlanning712]

I think "upfiring" works better in America,where there are many basement theatres

[@Audiodreamer192-24]

I have those atmos drivers and they do work. In ceiling is best but the upfiring speakers do work.

[@JosephTongret]

This is an incredibly interesting video! I only have 2 channel setups but I've been considering an AVR for the living room and expanding to 5.x.x. The primary reason I've hesitated to is because it's a small-ish and far from ideal space that would involve several compromises. Unfortunately, it's just a townhouse we've been renting (for WAY too long). I've spent more than a year going back and forth on the idea in my head. However, I was in an accident a few weeks ago(I'm fine) and my car was totaled and I had to come out of pocket for a replacement vehicle for myself, so the decision was made for me. Now I don't have to obsess over what to buy since I don't have a dime to spend🤣! Seriously though, thank you for putting so much thought and effort into the content you make. This video was the example I needed to see of a real world home that you made work!

[@joentell]

Glad to hear you're ok

[@adamjj85]

I was going to say watch out, you might get a copyright strike for Movin' Round the Room from Channa and bam he appears! 😆 Lmao, love the cameo. Excellent video and findings. You may have mentioned this, but I'd be curious if the benefits of the 2k dip would be negated by users who use room EQ if it were to correct the dip?

[@joentell]

Of course I'm crazy enough to try to EQ the dip by boosting 2khz back in. It sounded horrible and squeaky. I don't think the speaker or crossover likes it. I would have to test it with a redesigned crossover to really hear it properly

[@Cakebattered]

Bravo. This video was so greatly needed. keep up the good work.

[@donlew8222]

Fact: Bouncey house speakers DO suck! Atmos is object based, pinpoint sound. Cool testing!! 😃

[@nekerrivera]

I have the Nakamichi dragon and I have to tell you that when is about up firing speakers and Dolby atmos bubble this this is legit

[@juliangst]

They're already disqualified for me because I want absorption on the ceiling which would make upfiring speakes useless

[@derrickmauldin4720]

What speaker mounts are you using for the rear Pioneer SP-BS22's? I have those same speakers and I'm looking for a good wall mount for them. Thanks!

[@raphaelatienza]

Looks like WALI Speaker Wall Mounts on Amazon

[@joentell]

@@raphaelatienza you got it!

[@MaestroColucci]

Yeah, they "do something" but not as good as ceiling mounted.

[@stackoverflow8260]

It's more like TDad was crawling on your walls! 😂

[@joentell]

Sounds creepy! 😜

[@stackoverflow8260]

@@joentell and crawlies! 😆 🤣

[@stackoverflow8260]

@joentell jokes aside Joe! Does YT play atmos sound? I'm new to all this and got this Integra drx 8.4, still figuring things out. I have a sony bluray player and when I played Dune it detected atmos..but not with YT

[@joentell]

@@stackoverflow8260 YT only supports 5.1 on certain streaming devices. I've been able to get 7.1 by doing a few tricky things in encoding and using the Dolby Surround Upmixer on my AVR. I think Google is working on their own immersive format.

[@ants9574]

Thanks for the video!!!

I have the Sony’s and is “ok” for me. Awesome tests 🙌🏼

[@georgestephens2038]

and by the way I'm not sure this test was helpful, since we are not there

[@joentell]

It definitely helps to be in the same room, even when replaying a binaural recording. It's much more convincing if you sit in the same location as the place it was recorded. Seems to do something with how our brains have catalogued the acoustics of the room.

[@thelonewolf666]

what total crap--- a speaker on stands at the front will have far better effects than a upward firing snakeoil one

[@monsieural4551]

Hi, I'm French, why did I deactivate the subtitles? it's incomprehensible ! not everyone is American

[@joentell]

I didn't. Maybe it's because I just uploaded it? I'll double check the settings. I don't even know how to disable them.

[@ErinsAudioCorner]

Usually takes a few hours for KZbin to generate the subtitles automatically. Even longer for longer videos.