John Mackey on Whole Foods, Conscious Capitalism, and Life Beyond the Profit Motive

"I think the critics of capitalism have got it in this very small box - that it's all about money," explains John Mackey, co-founder and co-CEO of Whole Foods. "And yet, I haven't found it be that way. I've known hundreds of entrepreneurs and with very few exceptions most of them did not start their businesses primarily to make money."
In "Conscious Capitalism: Liberating the Heroic Spirit of Business," Mackey and his co-author, Raj Sisodia, make a case that businesses are at their best when reaching for a higher purpose that ranges far beyond any simplistic notions of the profit motive or self-interest. (For more information on Mackey's Conscious Capitalism nonprofit, go here: www.consciouscapitalism.org/).
Reason's Nick Gillespie sat down with Mackey to discuss his new book, the success of Whole Foods, the growing burden of government on day-to-day life, and how the Austin-based entrepreneur came to appreciate what he calls "the heroic spirit of business."
About 45 minutes. Shot by Josh Swain, Amanda Winkler, and Todd Krainin at the 2013 International Students for Liberty Conference, held February 14-16 in Washington, D.C. Edited by Meredith Bragg.
Visit reason.com/reasontv/2013/03/21... for downloadable versions and subscribe to Reason TV's KZbin page to receive automatic notifications when new material goes live.

[@coachgeraldmoore3723]

Finishing Post... My experience with Whole Foods Market has been exactly as John Mackey says. I am a Happy customer as of today. I have a Whole Foods 1 mile from me and I shop there everyday. Whole Foods treasures They're guests and delivers the very best they can. My advice: Is Trust the Company... Listen to this video And learn something about a "great" company and a "great" leader. Thanks John Mackey

[@MrKAHutch]

Thoroughly enjoyed this interview. I'll be picking-up this book. Thanks for this post, Reason!

[@pauldb707]

I agree. Cancer is not lying in wait for most people, we have the power to keep it out of our life with our life choices.

[@DrEnginerd1]

I really like the body/business analogy

[@JoshuaPatrickGarrett]

The "servant-leader" sounds like a corporate collectivist model. The interviewer gave a nod of sorts to crony capitalist tyrants, mentioning Carnegie, Rockefeller, and IBM without disdain.

[@fishblades]

What's the difference between what he's saying and what Adam Smith said with "Moral Sentiments." Our founders knew this. In order to have a system like ours people had to be moral and educated. It seems like we are going in circles and having to re-learn things that people knew long ago.

[@Ben.....]

This guy makes a lot of sense.

[@0HippyHunter0]

Please cite any of these "studies."

[@Emidretrauqe]

Don't get me wrong. Regulation helps, just not in corporatist states like the USA. When it's done in corporatist states it's only given to the smaller businesses with the larger ones getting passes to the laws that were designed around them.

[@Besserly]

I love you guys

[@0HippyHunter0]

My question is this: what do people die of if that laundry list of things he named are "lifestyle" diseases? Btw, Cancer isn't a lifestyle disease. Some cancers are, but the vast majority of cancer is primarily driven by genetics. That goes for most diseases.

[@pauldb707]

Hell ya!

[@Emidretrauqe]

Maybe in the previous centuries, but in the modern day United States small businesses receive the full force of economic regulations and restrictions while larger, more well-connected corporations are exempt.

[@elsquibbs]

Your theory would make sense if these "Regulators" were benevolent beings from on high to make sure everything is "fair". The reality is that these regulators are humans, just like the business owners. As a bonus, they have the power to manipulate the law to decide who wins and who loses. Corporatism is literally impossible in a truly free market.

[@wood9670]

How do you prevent regulators from being as corrupt as business owners? Ever here of regulatory capture?

[@coachgeraldmoore3723]

As a Customer I have 30 years

[@sanitydotorg]

Precisely. It's like I always say: you can have freedom or you can have a country, but you cannot have both.

[@grraadd]

"higher purpose" ? and sacrifice, and vegetarianism, self-loathing... and all that shit The whole miracle of capitalism is that your higher purpose is making profit - if you stick to that simple rule you don't need higher purposes, you don't need to care about your customers (but you better...).

[@Emidretrauqe]

Through monopolies

[@TheConspiracyBrah]

Capitalism means simply that all means of productions lie in the hands of private individuals. I agree that capitalism do not require a free market but it cannot have collective ownership as that goes directly against the private ownership requirement.

[@joeziahbabb]

Seeking the higher good is not disconnected from profits, in order to seek profits, by definition you are providing something which consumers desire and makes their lives better or relieves pains in their lives. Fraudulent businesses which cheat their customers out of their money through deceptive marketing or flat out fraud, are not capitalist businesses, they are crooks and by definition have no place in a free market.

[@lehighvallybarberschool4386]

sell healthy food to the communities so that diseases from being over weight are minimized. successful business do best when the people are benefiting as much as the business.

[@ethannylander]

Hey John Mackey, how come none of your songs are about your foods?

[@Emidretrauqe]

Of course getting the most votes is more important than getting the most money. But in the few (and I mean FEW) cases where the two are not the same it's simply exceptional. Saying that votes is more important than money is as pointless as saying that the things that money buy are more important than the money itself. Of course.

[@davitz77]

Getting rich and avoiding taxes are the two most American things ever.

[@XCritonX]

Regulations are what enable Corporatism. The legislating influence of politicians with the power to regulate competition are cheaply bought by people who want to avoid competing fairly. The desire to gain an unfair advantage by force creates the alliance of government and business that is called Corporatism. Minus the corrupting and coercive power of government Corporatism can not be created.

[@grraadd]

"extra oxygen" - wow :-D It's a muscle exercise - so in fact it's not spiritual, it's physiological and physical. And it works - opposite to ear candles or needles...

[@Emidretrauqe]

I said money buys votes. That's true. So I'm going to presume your response is targeted towards the "and I mean FEW" part. Buying votes doesn't work like an auction, I never said this was a pure money game. You're fighting a principle I presented with data that only superficially contradicts my point.

[@Specopleader]

Does it cross anyone's mind that anti-capitalism doesn't imply pro-government? That socialism is not synonymous with government? Why is it that no one here has mentioned an alternative to this dichotomy of arguments. The main argument against capitalism is showing how inherent imbalance of power indirectly causes negative social injustice at a global scale. The main counter-argument for capitalism is showing how government intervention and regulation of functions of the free market creates these problems, and that capitalism would work otherwise. Typical leftist: -Pro-government -Pro-socialism -Anti-capitalism Typical rightist: -Anti-government -Anti-socialism -Pro-capitalism With both left- and right-oriented people here assuming that socialism is synonymous with government, then neither are actually addressing the pros and cons of capitalism and socialism. Both sides are either referring to or implying government in their arguments. No wonder we get nowhere in this matter.

[@Rocko1II]

Specopleader Because government is has the strongest potential to express the interests of ordinary citizens representing as it does their will in a deomocratic society.I'm not following you really. I mean you can have things like employee owned companies but those would only exits within a larger frame work of capitalism. I think most Americans who even advocate for socialistic policies for some things would say that there are simply some areas where the market just doesn't take into account enough eternalities like the environmennt, health care, and education. Also, unregulated a market will simply put a value on everything including life, justice, ect...So it has limits within the frame work of a larger morality. At least for myself.

[@Specopleader]

Rocko1II Government, by it's nature, is detrimental to humanity.

[@MarketsNOTcapitalism]

I think its nice to see an American libertarian who doesn't worship big business. I know he got some flack for writing an op-ed about Obamacare, so he maybe trying to save face with social-democrats. We should adhere to the true American libertarian tradition which supported the labor movement.

[@Emidretrauqe]

At which point the free market will have completed itself and the corporate interests will assume total control of government.

[@jamescrawford2842]

A growing number of consumers are willing to pay more for organic and locally grown food and Whole Foods aims to serve them. There is nothing superior about their business

[@Emidretrauqe]

Sorry, I misread your comment. What you're saying doesn't happen naturally.

[@lukemilton1964]

I love Whole Foods! I agree with John Mackey on certain issues, but I'm a progressive, so I don't agree with him on all issues! I do love Whole Foods though!

[@markgrisham7437]

So it is business which corrupts government in your opinion. Interesting point. Do you agree that it's government who has the guns? Or does business have equal coercive means as guns? Let's dig into that a little bit.

[@fishblades]

There's truth here but he argues the investment helps the business to grow to the point where you can sustain it, and then add to it. If you are not a "Conscious Capitalist" and all of your employees are assholes because of it then your customers will suffer. It's a little bit of both, not all or nothing.

[@furyofbongos]

NICK - let him finish his thoughts before you interrupt him with your next question.

[@bobsinhav]

actually vegan pork is possible! wiki/In_vitro_meat

[@bengarland]

LOL this is the guy who sold WFM to Amazon! If that’s not crass capitalism, I don’t know what is!

[@quantumGs_Blackbird]

Or anyone who talks about "spiritual intelligence". It's like sifting shit for gold here.

[@RealityStar9]

You have to be stingy in business before you can be overly compassionate. A new or poor company doesnt have the means to give the greatest benefits that a Whole Foods can give.

[@sanitydotorg]

omg holotropic breathing

[@RealityStar9]

Free market corporatism? Is that like vegan pork?

[@0HippyHunter0]

Ironically, he's just talking about capitalism.

[@Alter1984]

Ha, no. Cancer is completely a lifestyle disease and is very preventable, depending on the choices we make throughout our daily lives. I've seen numerous studies that state less than 10% of cancers can be attributed to genetic defects.

[@grraadd]

you mean: zero? obviously

[@pbrasil88]

Spiritual intelligence???

[@SharkDude1]

Whole Foods Sucks!! Should I pay $3.00 for a Bell Pepper OR should I pay 75c for the Exact same Bell pepper at a different store? Hmmm....

[@magister343]

You cannot have true Free Enterprise with a government. Capitalism, however, is not a true synonym for Free Enterprise. Capitalism is a term coined by Karl Marx in order to denote a system dominated by those individuals who profit not from their own labor but by controlling the capital that the workers require in order to be productive. Capitalism does not require a free market, and in fact capitalists tend to do better when they can exploit government regulations and police protections.

[@Emidretrauqe]

First off, there's a difference between a democracy and a republic. The United States is a republic, like China. And do you just not acknowledge the purpose of PACs, super PACs, and lobbying?

[@ferulebezel]

I have problems with moral arguments form a guy who sells fake medicine.

[@86tvyall32]

Nothing wrong with making money but NOT to the detriment of the publics health. Two thumbs down for WFM. I choose NOT to shop at your store.

[@Emidretrauqe]

2000 election, 2004 election, 2008 election, 2008 democrat primary, 2012 republican primary, I'd probably find even more supporting data from the earlier primaries if they weren't so hard to find. You can't just make things up and then talk like a child. I'm kidding, you already did.

[@quercus4730]

I smell some kind of god behind this.

[@hannahmcneil4403]

How can he possibly say with a straight face that the people whose labor he exploits are happy about their exploitation? Capitalists are completely out of touch with the worker.