John Ortberg Breaks Down the Divide Between Leadership and Spiritual Formation

[@dougyip]

What the church sorely needs today is not better leaders, but better followers (of Christ), at all levels, but certainly at the top.

[@aartiroyan]

Fantastic to have JMC and Ortberg in a span of 2 days!! Thank you

[@CareyNieuwhof]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@mindiwilhelm4322]

Ortberg's insights on church leadership sometimes getting away with things until they die is very life giving to non-leaders who have lived through it.

[@davidmosesperez]

Thanks for the frank and transparent conversation Carey and John. Nicely done. I was on staff at Willow Creek in the 90's, when John was there, and his reflections about leadership (certainly in that context) are spot-on. I have found that the over-emphasis on leadership in ministerial life, has had tremendous negative impact on pastoral, shepherd-like, leadership, and only contributed to the elevation of the narcissistic pastor who holds all the power (it sadly had that effect on me). I may have grown several churches that way, so it works. But honestly, I was a complete asshole in my 30's and 40's and hurt many people's lives - so did it really work? Thousands upon thousands ran thru Willow's "Leadership" Summit during the church-growth movement of the 90's and early 2000's, only to idolize and prize one person's style, and then to export it everywhere. With the current shifts away from evangelicalism in droves, there may be a number of factors, but this negative emphasis on leadership, in my opinion and my experience, is one of them. - Rev. David Moses Perez

[@chaddonal4331]

Wow, this is quite an insightful and personal insight from one with a front row seat! Thank you for sharing. Yes, we ought be careful what we export! And be especially cautious of non-biblical, corporate-based, world-emulating models. We need to remember and recognize the opposite directional movement of the Spirit of God and the upside-down nature of the kingdom of God. Leaders are Leading Servants. Never those who Lord over others.

[@KJ-lb4tj]

We'll export what we are. We need to be careful about what we're becoming. @@chaddonal4331

[@time2pray777]

Thanks for your raw honesty, love it love it love it thank you for your humbleness you’re sharing Can really help other leaders come forward with admitting mistakes to idolizing a pastor who is typically dynamic, which I have done as well, and I regret it as well since my old pastor has fallen into sexual misconduct, and Financial mismanagement, and has been a bully to The pastoral team. I never knew it but it came out. Praise the Lord it came out as I’m no longer there and Under toxic leadership. Stop clergy abuse!

[@leonardmoore7362]

Thank you Carey for having John Ortberg on your podcast! He has been a guiding light for ministry practicioners like myself and his voice on these matters has been greatly missed. Those of us at the backside of our tenure have lived a long time in the (often uneasy) tension of organizational leadership and formational leadership. Hopefully today's conversation will help set the template for next gen leaders. A posture that is less antagonistic regarding those poles and more intentionally integrated with insights like John's.

[@andrearush6209]

Thank you. This is such an important conversation in the age of "business-ifying" God's Church. Leaders who are not following Jesus in simple spirit and Truth issues like accountability, repentance, and confession as well as what is required to be "member" of the local Body are crushing people who just want to be in community and contribute without all the heretical requirements placed on them (signed legal "covenant of men" membership documents in order to be able to be in community with other "members). The pressure the current cultural business model puts on pastors, deacons, elders, and others in key ministry positions to perform and expand their kingdoms is leading them to exclusivity, and the mindset of untouchable as it relates to accountability. "Life in the fishbowl" is no doubt hard but it is zero excuse for high control tactics found in toxic environments. Ever. "Who does the front page of the newspaper say we are?" is a question for a business building an image and cultivating a brand, not the living, growing, transformative, dynamic, loving Bride of Christ. I love the work the Holy Spirit is doing here through these messages. The insight John (and JMC) have gained and are now sharing is invaluable as well. Thank you for sharing your stories and for giving insight into the role of pastor and the challenges of dealing with all of it. I'm concerned for the people in those roles, that the expectations are going to crush Jesus right out of them. That would be tragic.

[@CareyNieuwhof]

Thanks for sharing this

[@tbgordtv]

Thank you Carey! So enjoy the podcast, I listen to it most mornings as I work out. So insightful and helpful. I have also recently become acquainted with John Ortberg, and, like you, I'm learning so much from him. I'm a follower of Jesus and teach chemistry at a small university in Missouri. I've been here for 31 years and have served as a division chair for the past 17 years. I'm often looked to as a leader. While I appreciate the trust of others and hope that I've grown in social intelligence, I don't characterize myself as much of a leader. I'm certainly not what would be characterized as an organizational or visionary leader. Thinking of a 5 or 10 year plan is absolutely draining to me. If there is a term that I use for myself, it would be that I'm an operational leader. I don't have the vision. However, I can really get behind the vision and organize people and events to make the vision happen. My mind doesn't go to the vision. It goes to the day to day operations/events/things that need to happen to make the vision happen. My question - is that really a type of leadership or is that more management of people and resources? I'm not at a point in my life where I need to feel like I'm a leader for significance, and I don't feel a need for me to have a "title" at all. However, as I listen to your podcasts and others, I'm just trying to figure out how or if I fit into those conversations. I understand that we don't know each other at all and that you are extremely busy, but if you have some thoughts I would greatly appreciate them.

[@time2pray777]

I think good leaders do manage people well and provide good resources and support for the people that they are over or are taking care of or responsible for. You do sound like a leader. I think this conversation with John is important because there’s too much emphasis on leadership. Yes I agree - who cares about the titles. Of course we have to have titles at work fine but at churches I get it there are Director Labels, but in the end there’s only one leader which is Jesus Christ our Lord and savior, so I think it’s important to see the signs of a leader that abuses their power and control over others, that’s where they hold onto the title for dear life and that’s not a good thing when they do that or when we do that, hope that helps!

[@MarioHood]

Loved this conversation. Lots of what my focus was in school. Thanks for this.

[@CareyNieuwhof]

You're so welcome!

[@jasonbilbro6373]

Definitely resonated with John’s words. Chuck Miller’s book, “The Spiritual Formation of Leaders,” addresses this exact topic!

[@CareyNieuwhof]

Thanks for watching

[@erichoehn8262]

Wow! I resonate with so much of what John says

[@RogerMudd496]

A little disappointed no discussion on his departure from Menlo took place. I think that would have made this feel more authentic.

[@campuswe9846]

especially since he dealt excellently with the Willow questions. maybe another time?

[@SCOTTISHSOULFOOD1]

I have Eugene Peterson and John Maxwell on the same shelf, I feel this tension. For me there is a priority, "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ." 1 Corinthians 11:1 My take is that we are only truly a Christian leader to the extent we are following Christ, we are followers before being leaders and are leaders by being followers. So spiritual formation is integral to Christian leadership

[@CareyNieuwhof]

Thanks for sharing!

[@papersnowflakesbylesbarker2575]

This was a good conversation. However, as with many such conversations of significance, unless we are clear on how we define terms, it's hard to know if we're talking about the same thing. Spiritual formation wasn't every really defined by either of these gentlemen. Is it a leadership development process? Is it spiritual growth? Is it spiritual maturity? Ortberg seemed to hint that it was about a very personal journey in the realm of spiritual practices. They started with agreement that there are two camps - spiritual formation and leadership. The word leadership, over the course of the conversation morphed into "organizational leadership." The term "leadership industrial complex" came out twice. That was interesting and should have been a whole discussion in and of itself. Again, please define your terms and give historical and scriptural context. This is a "leadership" podcast. That is the context. In my view, nothing was said to counter the assertion that this conversation wasn't just more of the leadership industrial complex. I would go so far as to say that there is such a thing as the Institutional Church Industrial Complex. What I heard Ortberg and Niewhof say convinced me that the core of this conversation centered around the idea of pastoral leadership as expressed in most churches in the U.S. - that is the team of professional church leaders, led by a senior pastor, and an attractional model that is dependent upon and fosters that type of leadership. The perceived tension between "the two camps" is not really an issue. The last verses of the book of Matthew involve as clear a mandate for all Christ-followers as can be found in Scripture. If there is another passage of equal, foundational nature, I welcome any suggestions. This mandate is for all believers - those who were standing on the hillside of the ascension and every believer since. The mandate is for all believers (individually and collectively) to focus on the faith journey of individuals. The only way to know if someone is living in obedience to Christ's teachings is to walk alongside side them, over time. That is the only way that one could observe obedience. That process takes time. It takes commitment. It takes Holy Spirit inspired insight. Whatever forms of organization and leadership in which we engage as His Church needs to be in support of this very intimate, very personal and very sacrificial process. That's why all of the imagery surrounding the work of the church has to do with agriculture, and family relationships. That's not because life was simpler then, it's because this is imagery of things that take time, commitment and sacrifice. They are timeless illustrations of what we are called to do. Matthew 28:18-20 is the reference point for us as Christians. From there we can scale up, out, and deep. In most cases these conversations are about some standard out there of highly educated and motivated individuals and/or a large, successful congregation with a commensurate facility. With that as the reference point, people take the reference point and scale downward to see how "small" they can go on the continuum and still have "church" or "leadership". That is the wrong approach, in my view. The Scriptures reference a process of maturity (towards Christ-likeness) and yet we don't have good language and categories for what that process of maturity looks like. In the absence of a clear understanding of that process, there is confusion and ambiguity. Having strong leadership is of little help if we don't have our definitions straight and a clearly articulated and Scripturally-based understanding of the process.

[@dmwl09]

That is a powerful realization! I had an aha moment as my own struggle!

[@overthinkingtim]

really good to listen to this and your episodes with Tim Keller back to back to draw together those dots.

[@chaddonal4331]

“You will always reproduce the person that you are. … There is no way to outsource spiritual growth.”

[@KJ-lb4tj]

And emotional and relationship growth. They're all tied together.

[@lisaho1492]

There should not be a "tension." Not to separate the two One is spiritually formed from birth! And continues- in whatever spirituality he is exposed to. Formation is essential to leadership in all areas be it at home, work, church, in the office, government etc. It goes to the being of the person and this translates to what he or she thinks, says and does. Ancient Christian disciplines with adjustments may cultivate formation and are sorely needed to be practised. We have much to learn from church history, and desert fathers and mothers. Such leaders who "make every effort," who "train in righteousness" cultivate the mind of Christ, lean on the leading of the Holy Spirit and more often than not will make wise decisions, recognising their limitations and giftedness of others. Delegating, moving with courage though some initially reticent. Humility is key.

[@joanpurcell503]

Where are the leaders in the US to replace the former and present Presidents?

[@maxartusy6378]

Be known to you. The Apostle Matthew knew of of Ortberg and his kind. See Book of Matthew 7:15 for more detail.

[@time2pray777]

Spiritual formation is a lot more important than leadership. We are all to be leaders in one way or another. No one is better than someone yes leaders can have more skills but the best leaders build up their followers and bring out the best in them. Yes, our churches do not have the skills needed to deal with clergy abuse, manipulation, controlling and any form of abuse sexual emotional physical. May there be a rise of Christian organizations like Grace, specializes in abuse cases and helping the church to navigate investigations I really don’t think a church is equipped to do this, it takes specialization and professionalism and years of training, to be able to do this, which a pastor, and an elder and a board do not have that skill set, there are many churches like my past church, Fellowship Monrovia, Pastor,Albert Tate, who similar to Bill Hybels has had sexual misconduct and he has covered up his sin and there’s no accountability because the board is just wrapped around his finger. There is no justice like you said John, when a leader is set to sin and abuse his power and control, and the sad part is most people have left the church, but there are still people there and I think that’s really sad that they are easily manipulated and follow a person who should probably never be at the pulpit again but the congregation was notified and then within three months he’s back at the pulpit again. Unbelievable arrogance he’s traumatized so many of his leaders and pastoral staff, woe to him and leaders who are wolves in sheep’s clothing! I’m calling out his name because I don’t want to be afraid to speak the truth and to let people know and warn them who we need to be careful of to Not follow.

[@AnciAlatir]

Doesn't it say something about the toxicity of Evangelical leadership culture that people can entertain the thought of having the "leadership guys" and "spiritual people" separate? You certainly don't get that from the Scripture.