John Piper - How will God respond to Atheism & Richard Dawkins(RO)

[@postalgbv]

Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' - douglas adams

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi oops slipped in wrong discussion details their. Ignore last two lines. The whole point of romans is not to reject the law, but consider it moral, but being "sinful beings" we are unable to stop our selves sinning, but must be filled with the holy spirit and other babble. Only with the power of the spirit can our sins be forgiven. It does not deny the morality of the law, but embraces it (how do we know if it is a sin without the law).

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi Given the quote from romans 7.7 which I helpfully included, please explain, what is not clear from the whole of romans - the law defines what is sinful, otherwise why include the laws, as it says, otherwise how would we know what is sinful. Jesus talked about the Jewish law, all 613 commandments, included in the 5 books of moses, including leviticus. SO is not having sex with your daughter a holy law or secular? -assume the wife would be dead so it is not adultery, and they are married

[@gspahr]

It's kind of ironic that this kind of people says "open your eyes and ears"...

[@BeautifulYoungBoy]

This guys make Ray Comfort look good.

[@PaulHarrisonVideos]

Yes, praise God for making flowers that trap and kill bugs to digest them while spiders descend on their silk to steal the carcasses for themselves. And if we don't believe God designed this we will give an account on judgment day for blashemy. Give God the glory for stings, fangs, spines, poison, natural disasters, testosterone, cancer, disease, bloodthirsty mosquitoes, etc.

[@mfunke]

How can a spider EVER learn to steal from a flower? Seriously? The ONLY logical explanation is magic. MAGIC, I say!!!

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi really - now that is interesting. SO how do you decide what is civil law and holy law. How did secular laws make into the holy book? Where did Jesus point out what was secular and what was spiritual? Can god allow evil laws into his holy book, unless the bible is flawed. So is the new testament flawed as-well? Does not god give direction to what is written in his book? Is Leviticus holy law or civil law? Why make a secular law about mixing cotton and wool?

[@silverspirit2001]

The sad fact is, for most of history, most people would not have objected to Hitler or the Nazi regime, only if it impacted their interests would they have gone to war. Because they were performing similar actions themselves, see the genocide of the native Americans (giving smallpox infested blankets), the crusades, Lutheran doctrine on the Jews and Africans, the Nanking massacre et al.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi - not because of the bible, but because i could feel and identify with the loss this money could bring to the owners. In fact, the reason I stopped beliving was the injustice of hell. How can I, a limited human being forgive at a time I was sexually, emotionally and physically abused, when god could not. I understand the process which lead to my abuse, but eternal damnation? 100000 years yes, but forever!

[@silverspirit2001]

I have explained it to you - you do not just do not want to accept it - their is no abstract outside force which dictates why we must follow the golden rule, but evolution has made it desirable to follow the golden rule as it helps protect the species, through the trait of empathy. We have empathy because it is useful. Are you saying you can turn off your empathy at will? Or you have no innate sense of empathy - ie a socio-path?

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi sorry double post - but expanding - Childrens rights? Sterilisation? Contraceptives? Medical care as a right? Education as a right? Unfair business practices? Monopolies? Freedom of speak? None of these are covered in the bible. Indeed as I like to quote, (assuming you are American) the first amendment to the constitution contradicts the 3rd (or second according to your sect) commandment - a bugbear for me for those who say America is a christian nation.

[@Infernalfist]

It's very interesting how speakers like this always apply their own emotions to their god. as if something they constantly say is unexplainable can be explained by simple human emotions.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi. Or put it another way, their is no one forcing you to follow the golden rule, but (the forces of) evolution make it a desirable property, and empathy is the tool provided by (the forces of) evolution to accomplish that. Now not all of our species have empathy - ie socio-paths, which incidentally are vastly over represented as the bosses of companies. SO if you are born with empathy, you will tend to follow the golden rule, unless you are brainwashed against it.

[@LucianoSubiraaOrvalho01]

Apparently he's also insane, hearing voices.

[@KBoe4]

@roac7777 You have no idea who John Piper is and I would greatly encourage you to watch more videos of his.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi darn it, reply got nixed - In essense, there is no absolute or objective morality, and we learn our code of conduct from our parents, empathy is an evolutionary trait, which helped us become the dominate species on the planet. Emotions are a short cut to our learning of our code of conduct - but that can be changed by experience. So should you intervene - depends on what type of world you want or have been trained to expect.

[@Nails077]

I can't tell if he is satiring religion or if he is religious attempting to do the same on atheists. Religious people are just so out there even when they say what they mean.

[@silverspirit2001]

really, i point to you a reply of two weeks ago (7) As for slavery; just like polygamy it is never taught as holy. It is simply 'overlooked'. One reason I believe slavery is present throughout the bible is because God is simply doing greater things than simply ironing out 'social' issues. Also, slavery is allowed for the purpose of teaching us our position towards sin-that we are 'slaves'. Also...it teaches us how we are to become slaves of righteousness.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi And I say this - we live in a cold dark and uncaring universe, what we do has no meaning at all, all our moral guidelines are purely evolutionary instincts. We can only decide what is the best for the future, by our instincts given to us and thought into what we want to become. We decide what world we live in, we laud the heros who intervene in these cases, because we all recognize that a world that child rape is common, increases the risk that our children could be raped.

[@m0nkey13]

@claddgibson You say that "God brought evil upon Egypt because the pharaoh would not let gods people go free." So what's the deal? The rest of us are not God's people? Killing the young Egyptian children (but letting the Pharaoh live) is morally correct in your eyes? Another question: If God has control over Satan why does he choose not to control him? He created the devil, is God not responsible for his mistakes? Or did he want a devil and hell to torture man (who he loves dearly).

[@m0nkey13]

This man is in need of a basic book on evolution.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi oops Nearly forgot. SLAVERY IS WRONG BECAUSE I WAS BROUGHT UP BELIEVING IT WAS WRONG. And nowadays, I can see the intellectual arguments to say why it is wrong - ie If slavery existed, why should I not be enslaved. I also have compassion for other human beings and follow the golden rule. A compassion lacking in you and your god, if you condone slavery. And by your own words, you do, seeing as owning a slave is less important than saving your own afterlife. I am more moral than that

[@LucianoSubiraaOrvalho01]

First off this guy didn't give the name of that paticular spider or plant so I can't look it up or confirm it, or the exact location of where this plant is, or for that matter when it was discovered. All these guys do is make stupid vague statements, Look at gods creation, but when asked well where is this god who created this stuff, they say he cannot be detected because he is to far above our understanding. Honestly the more we learn the more"god" becomes vague.

[@m0nkey13]

@claddgibson I dismissed religion when I read the Bible, I was raised a Catholic but questioned the many historical, scientific and moral aspects of that faith. I saw the clear mythological connections between the religions and realized that this "holy" book was written by uneducated, bronze aged storytellers. We have advanced significantly since then and we should dismiss these childish beliefs. There's no evidence, - it's morally corrupt, unscientific and it goes against common sense.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi Why should you obey the golden rule, is because obeying the golden rule gives you the greatest benefit for survival. Ie protection of the majority who obey the golden rule vs those who would steal from you. Unfortunately, the benefits in thee modern world are less tangible (most people feel just paying you taxes should entitle them to protection), which is why we have the rise of rampant short term capitalism and moral decline in the west.

[@DaveBC1]

Is this guy for real? He sounds like Steve Colbert. So spiders can't have evolved naturally to pluck food from flowers? Why not? Bees and birds did. And swimming pools next to oceans are common. That can't be the first one he's ever seen. Swimming pools can be cleaned, heated if necessary and don't have jellyfish in them.

[@DissidentDex]

Blasphemy is a victimless crime. It is amazing what bullshit people will make up to cover for stupidity.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi And yes, if I was a crusader, I would have no compunction in the massacres, thinking it was good. Or if I was in the Otter-man empire, the genocide of Armenian's. It would depend on my religious point of view at the time. After all, atheists have owned slaves (see Thomas Payne). It depends both on cultural understanding and thought on the principles. It is our thought which defines what we consider moral. I hope in times past, I would have the knowledge to deduce slavery was wrong.

[@silverspirit2001]

Simple, you dont have to follow it, but you desire to follow it, or another way, you want to follow it. What makes hitler evil is a personal opinion, from my experience and how I follow my ethics, he violated those ethics so he is evil to me. For example. Do you think that the 911 attacks were evil? DO you think the bombers thought it was evil? Good and evil are subject to your own ethics. But here is the point - they are guided by your upbringing and evolutionary empathy.

[@NotUrBiz]

If there is a god that created everything, it wouldn't be shocked by the thoughts of a non-believer, much less think they were funny. Why would a being that created everything that exists everywhere in the universe be the least interested in our petty, mundane little thoughts? It loves us? That is the true arrogance of believers. Nothing we could possibly say or think could be new or interesting to a being that knows everything. Childish to think otherwise.

[@sigmet61]

This guy would have fought Newton and Galileo...

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi. Can you see the link in not caring for each other and this decline of power and ethics. Your long term protection for your progeny ie 5 or 6 generations from now is affected, if you choose to abuse others around you for profit. In days of yore, The cost benefit analysis was easier to discern - ie cast out from society and protections. Much harder now, and most people do not think that far ahead.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi So you are saying the laws are moral, but because they are "fulfilled", they are no long required to be observed? That still does not abolish the morality of the laws at the time - those laws must be as moral now as then, even if we do not have to follow those laws - that is irrelevant. But saying these laws are fulfilled is still abrogating the moral guidance that these laws "provided". Meaning you still have the same problem - fulfilling the law changes what is moral.

[@silverspirit2001]

Ok put it this way, I choose to be good - but you can choose to not care about the species because their is no higher truth, but evolution (and you fail to understand I am not anthropomorphising it - It is a short cut to describe the forces which drive evolution) has found that for our and other species, empathy is a valuable trait to protect the species, which is the basis of the golden rule.

[@explosivoification]

@mikeisi I'm not accusing "religion" itself.....I am accusing the improper USE of it. The answers we get from religion aren't based on any truth that all men want(whether they blind themselves with religion or not)Religion doesn't help....anymore than assuming that because you have been served food god must have cooked it........PLEASE don't be deceived. Read the bible critically without assuming any of it is true, read it from start to finish...........talk to those who WERE theists.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi Emotions are the intellectual short cuts, and you can identify with the pain and suffering of the girl, so you would and should act. It benefits the species (raping young girls affects fertility, and of course the emotional damage it inflicts carries along generations). Evolution is not bothered with your survival, only the species. Intervening "could" have a beneficial effect on the species, but the matter is evolution does not care, it is a blind and pitiless force.

[@Highfire2347]

@CaptainMacNasty Freedom of speech against religion, knowledge in general, allowance of scientific advancement, reduction of indoctrination, the nature of human curiosity over coming its nature for an explanation. Yep, no wonder at all :) Too bad it took a few thousand years for it to get to this step, but hey, no regret - there's a chance to find out ! >:D

[@PlatesManUK]

The obvious giveaway as to how John Piper thinks is at the start in his reference to the Nat. Geo. article. Because he needs the article to suit his purposes, he is happy to consider it a trusted source of scientific facts. But he also was uncomfortably aware that Nat. Geo. publish many articles about evolution, so he deals with that by simply stating that those articles are "lies". In short, he cherry-picked the articles he liked. Just as religeous folk cherry-pick morals from the bible.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi This is the test of modernity, the automatic assumption we are entitled to human rights. We need to understand that we bestow these rights on ourselves by our actions, and need to instil fear into those who would take those rights away. We need to discuss what those rights are, as our society evolves. But this is getting political now. ps please answer my questions, on god being a moral relativist.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi Well, being in the unfortunate position of being sexually abused as a child (but as I grew older, I became very religious for this reason, and fortunately enough, hell was the reason I stopped believing), I can say with all sincerity that torture for eternity is wrong. 100,000 years certainly, but forever! NO, NO, NO, NO, NO.

[@LucianoSubiraaOrvalho01]

Apparently alot considering they tried to kill one of them,

[@gavbag1234]

Any arguement of that nature just needs to be extended a few steps in either direction and he's arguing against himself. I thought this was a parody.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi Still have not answered my questions ie sex with your daughter if her mother is dead, and you married your daughter - is that a sin, or just a "civil" law. But to civil law - saying it is not secular ( secular means not religiously inspired). So god gave these laws, yes I agree not secular, but not civil either. Maybe you mean not god inspired? Not a sin? Where does it establish in the bible which is which? How is the ritual impurity of a woman menstruating linked to the crucifixion?

[@MrKGatl]

@LibertyDrum yes, the bible. Which are the most popular fairy tales. Chance has nothing to do with it.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi And still, all throughout the bible, no-one, condemned slavery. In fact didn't someone say to slaves, serve your earthly masters well? (colossians 3:22). So is slavery purely a "civil" matter? So slavery is not inherently wicked? Read Galatians 19 "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious:" Which directly violates romans 7.7, especially your interpretation, that it "was to reveal our sinful heart", but not if the laws are gods moral standards

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi 4. cont - of like minded people to protect ourselves and others. and bingo - we have a tribe, with a share code. Morality is shared across the tribe, with punishments for misbehaviour, and protection form other tribes with different moralities. SO explained evolution of morals, tribes and differing ethics in a very short timescale. Indeed, we see this effect in gang culture in the modern times.

[@m0nkey13]

@claddgibson By the way Deuteronomy 6: 4-5 seems to be referring specifically to the Jewish religion, 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.[a] 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. Are you Jewish? This is also beyond hubris to think that the creator of the Universe favors one race of people. Also if you want evil quotes on rape, slavery, child torture and death from that fine book let me know. There's plenty of examples.

[@m0nkey13]

@claddgibson As I said in my first comment to you, I did read the Bible and many other mythical books. In fact if I wanted to convince someone that religion is a silly myth I would have them read the entire Bible. There are some people that are hopeless, I'm afraid you are one of them. Anyone who believes the earth is 6,000 years old is just too far gone. You keep praying, I'll keep thinking. Thanks for the conversation.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi There you see, thinking only of yourself. We developed morality for the survival of the species - not just your own genes, but the genes of mankind - a classic mistake that those who have not read up on evolution make. So why to many birds gather in flocks - makes hunting easier, but gains extra protection to the individual and the species. So if the girl was your daughter, would you intervene? your niece? You are related to that girl (and the monster).

[@explosivoification]

@mikeisi Blindly following god to extent where you carry out evil acts eg. Spanish inquisition (no one expects the Spanish inquisition)

[@silverspirit2001]

@silverspirit2001 So do you think racism is right? - see genesis9:20-27. SO you think slavery is right? (remember your previous answer) I assume you think of all people should be treated equal - or is the preamble to the constitution evil? Is the fact that the first amendment to the constitution violates the commandment that you shall not that the lord gods name in vain? Is it kind (not right) for god to send people to hell forever? Please answer these questions.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi So gods moral laws are not absolute, they change with the circumstance /context? Does that not make god a moral relativist? But god is the source of absolute morals! So those laws must be absolutely moral for all time... can you see the conflict here? Any law created by a moral absolute god, must be absolutely moral for all time, or else he is engaging in moral relativism - ie what was moral previously is not moral now.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi Hey I am not borrowing your philosophy to lead my own life (in fact you are borrowing evolutionary morality to run some of your own). As to confusion, it is not me which is confused, it is you who are blinded to see how your separation of the law was not practised by any of the disciples - only when pauline christianity came along, did the laws get jettisioned, as evidenced by my quotes. And it still does not answer the question I asked - were the old testament laws moral.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi Or do you simply rely on your commandments, extrapolating moral choices, which many christians will find objectionable? Oh ps, the golden rule is simple the recognition that hurting others is not nice - again a trait we learn from our families or decide for ourselves on further investigation. PS nice job on the John Holt quote, but fails if we can identify the person it belongs too. In fact at 14, I found a wallet with the name on a credit card and a £168 in. I turned it in.

[@Pootnam]

Yep, the bible has been rewritten due to the discoveries of Galileo and Newton.

[@KBoe4]

@roac7777 Burning old women as witches?! John Piper would never because he doesn't believe in witches because that's not biblical.

[@BeautifulYoungBoy]

*Faceknife*

[@silverspirit2001]

And still you refuse to acknowledge the simple point, that god must have made the laws within his own moral framework. The point is either god commanded all the laws in the book of moses, and since god is supposedly intrinsic morally good, he cannot make a bad commandment, so all his commandments must be morally good - forget the new testament at this time - or some of the bible was written by men, not inspired by god, your "civil laws" which you cannot identify by bible guidance.

[@m0nkey13]

@claddgibson I am also stating my point and when a person believes in something without evidence, something that is invisible, something that has no historical proof, scientific proof and goes against common sense, well yes, that's a lack of critical thinking skills. And what kind of choice are you talking about, either you love God or you die? That's love? No my friend, that's tyranny. You describe God as the biggest bully in the Universe. I prefer life in the real world.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi Now that is tedious self justification. A god who could not be bothered to end slavery, hence it is not immoral, since the law is perfect. As to genesis 9:20-27, ask any KKK member, he will explain it in detail to you - but since the descendants of ham are cursed to be servants, and the curse blackened their skins, I would have thought it obvious. Would I have an infinite punishment for a finite crime?

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi No, it is not the question of the law, it is the question of what is moral. The laws must have been moral, if god is absolutely morally good. see romans 7.7 "What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."" So again, what is the age of consent to get married. Can a husband rape his wife.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi. But more to the point, you do realize that by saying god invented morality, you are saying morality is purely arbitrary - their is no fundamental reason to decide what is moral and what is not. Your god violates my sense of empathy, thats why I can dismiss it as an barbaric relic. I can see why people may have not thought slavery was evil in the past, because morality evolves as arguments develop as our understanding of the world develops.

[@AllenQuatermain2de]

dont understand something? make fun of it! ah yes, creationism 101

[@MrKGatl]

@m0nkey13 some people prefer fairy tales

[@sidikiharris950]

god has annoyed him with great gift of teaching

[@freiheitsalv]

@perbor24 or to a biology class, a real one ._.

[@m0nkey13]

@claddgibson What proof do you have that Zeus didn't create the world? This is a very poor argument putting God in the same company as Big Foot and the Unicorn. As far as God being this loving entity, read the old testament and tell me that this was a loving God. The Bible has lasted this long because it preys on people's fear and ignorance offering either eternal joy or eternal pain. You believe what you believe because you were born at a certain time and in a certain place/

[@KBoe4]

@roac7777 Your Jesus is different from mine. Read the New Testament.

[@KBoe4]

@roac7777 With all do respect, you don't know what you're talking about. Since Jesus came and rose, we christians are under the New Convenant, which are the teachings of the New Testament. The things you spoke of were in the Old Testament.

[@felisleo101]

Argument from personal incredulity. Classic logical fallacy.

[@perbor24]

this guy really needs to go to a mental hospital

[@explosivoification]

@mikeisi I agree with 1 exception: Christianity teaches some deplorable morals.

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi Sure, their are apologetics for racism, just as their are apologists for slavery, murder and every other vice in the bible. CS Lewis is just another apologetic, taking the simple easy to understand message and twisting it out of all recognition to justify his moral position of the time. Think clearly, where the writers of the bible (both testaments) apologetics, or did they believe the easy message that they wrote down. Is every evil act an infinite evil because of the consequences?

[@silverspirit2001]

@mikeisi lol - an absolute morally good god condoning slavery? Even for a plan for the future - oh how that smacks of moral relativity. Explain that. Next, you absolutely failed to explain how christianity, explained in the gospels is the same as pauline christianity -in fact, with the examples I quoted, you completely ignored the points which you christ raised. Explain that. Working on the Sabbath as immoral, the point most distressing to you, as their is no moral justification (see b)

[@DaemonPredator]

I've never see this bad comedian, who is he?.

[@zaitschek]

Laughable huh. And hes asking God.to write down what hes saying. HAHAHAHAHA

[@dynamicministries]

This man is to judgmental

[@5anthonys]

Fast forward to 2:10. This guy has been totally brain-washed by his own ignorance.

[@agentssith]

What a surprise! Another charlatan who doesn't understand understand evolution! How sad.

[@Sasuk3xxx]

this guy is very not funny