LED Bulb burnout - what fails inside?

[@leiferickson3183]

So... Back around 2014 Energy star changed the rules for getting the energystar rating for LED bulbs. They reduced the required heatsink with the idea that the energy that goes into making the heatsink was not ecological. The result was that all the prices of the bulbs plummeted and now here we are with bulbs that dont last very long. My experince is that they last one to two years. The manufacturers are driving the snot out of those poor LED's without enough (any?) heatsink. - At the same time the efficiency of the LED's generally goes down with how hard they are driven (Check your data sheets). The modern world leaves us with products designed only for cost of production, and has no desire to make a product that lasts. Just buy a new one and throw the old one out - because that is ecologically desirable? An LED bulb could literally last a lifetime if designed properly - I would guesstimate that it would cost 4 to 5 times as much to produce (I used to design LED bulbs in a previous life).

[@westelaudio943]

Well, there are 'Dubai style' filament LEDs which don't have any heat sink but last very long.

[@Theineluctable_SOME_CANT]

Yes I agree it's revolting. I do harvest parts for my prototypes. It's a token gesture....

[@heavymod9476]

It sucks with expensive outdoor lights. The LEDs fry, and I’m glad I am handy enough to replace them.

[@marshmower]

Capacitor only rated for 200V. Should be at least 370V. And it's trapped inside the hot aluminum base cup.

[@johncoops6897]

​@@marshmower- the mains voltage over there is only 110V, so that's about 157V peak to peak. That is well within the safe operating range of a 200V capacitor 🙄

[@guitchess]

Great vid. I have also spent a bunch of time working with LED bulbs. I created a process to fix them. I can fix several of the type I use in 15 minutes. However, if they have very much use on them, it may not be worth it. While the bad parts/ LEDs are easy to replace, the stress that the other parts have endured will create the next weak point. I have gotten into the habit of modding new bulbs to run on less current, idea via BigClive. This step really makes them perform like LEDs should. It's too bad that bean counters have reduced them to rock bottom price. It's causing a lot of frustration with an otherwise excellent tech.

[@jerryking2418]

You’re right. Nearly all failed LED bulbs are tossed. Only someone as brilliant as you would consider why they failed. I learn a lot from your videos. Please don’t stop.

[@louistournas120]

I was always curious has to how they fail. I guess one mode of failure that happens to street lights is that the phophor layer, the yellow stuff on top, gets cracked and falls us. The LED emits a purplish light, which contains a lot of UV. One of these days, I am going to try to remove it myself.

[@codebeat4192]

Great video. Most of the time the problem is driving the LEDs close or above the maximum rating and the heat it generates. That is the real problem, heat destroys everything. What I did is take a few cheap Ikea bulbs of the same type and remove the enclosure and use one driver to drive all of the LED panels (parallel). Result: The current provided by the driver is now divided by the number of attached LED panels, less heat, same overall wattage and more spots/points with light. The reduction of current result in a slightly lower brightness of the panels but will be compensated by the amount of panels and the wider angle light can be produced. I applied this method in the kitchen, living room and a workbench lamp with great results. Did this a year ago and still running fine. It is also a great way to save on energy. For example 5 LED panels with 5 drivers = 25W but in this configuration it is only 5W (the current is limited by the driver). Another way is to use a (correct rated) capacitor (as 'resistor') in series with the lamp to limit the amount of current (power) it can use however the downside of doing this is that the lamp will be less bright. But the amount of heat it will produce also decreases which is good. This will increase the lifetime of the bulb. Last option is the "Big Clive" method to change the current limit resistors on the driver of the LED panel but this requires knowledge of the configuration and how to change it. All these methods extend the lifetime of the lamps/LEDs. You will be surprised how sensitive these LEDs are and reducing the current take away the heat dramatically but still keep a plausible amount of light.

[@FearlessAmateur]

My favorite topic. I have many as well. I've bridged dead chips with resistors for a new life. Reportedly the driver is supposed to adjust, making a resistor unnecessary, but it seems to depend on the driver design. I've found bulbs "not for use in enclosed luminares" last a long time if you remove the diffuser. Like everyone's been saying, it seems to be a heat issue no matter how you slice it.

[@Jay_Dahl]

Your analysis makes sense, especially with regards to the driver and capacitor failures. FYI, I bought a couple of the original "corn cob" LED lights more than ten years ago. They run all night, every night, and they're still working. Each bulb is composed of a network of small LEDs wired together, in conjunction with a clever passive resistor network to limit current. No electrical components other than resistors and LEDs. One other note: About ten years ago I installed a whole house surge suppressor. It was a Black Friday special, that cost less than $100, but took some ingenuity to install. Prior to installing that, I had a lot of CFLs that would burn out prematurely, but all lasted MUCH longer life after the suppressor install. Most of my CFL bulbs have since been replaced with LEDs, and I haven't had a single LED bulb fail on me since.

[@garbo8962]

Installed a quality corn cob LED lamp in a kitchen luminare. The original 200 watt lamps only lasted 4 to 5 months and a 150'watt halogen lamp maybe a month or two longer. Lamp has a fan in it that is very quiet and over 6 years old. Wife now leaves it & three LED luminares in the basement on all night for the cat she inherited.

[@jp040759]

Great summary. LEDs and LED bulbs have come a loooonnngg way from 1947 when they first discovered semiconductor properties. I saw a movie by one of the transistor inventers that showed the various phenomenon that semiconductors had. One was when you energized a semiconductor material it would emit light. In the video they used a microscope to show the little tiny light emission form where a wire contacted the semiconductor chip. That little flicker grew to what is now lighting buildings and streets. They have come a long long long way.

[@CommenterRick]

Thanks

[@davidahmad6090]

If you crack off one of the parralel resistors feeding the currrent control pin on the driver chip, the leds will be driven with a lot less current and the bulb will last a lot longer, Bigclive does this a lot.

[@MagruderSpoots]

Thanks. I replace a lot of bulbs in exit signs and would like one that last a lot longer.

[@jj74qformerlyjailbreak3]

I just found these Great Value led bulbs and the Aluminum pcb is only housing 9 LEDs. Nice. I hope to find more like this. It lasted about 2 years before the transformer disconnected itself.

[@davidahmad6090]

@@MagruderSpoots here is an interesting video to make bulbs last longer "Hacking an extra trashy Poundland LED lamp (with schematic)" it is a simple hack by the youtube chanel Bibclive.

[@JohnAudioTech]

Keep in mind that this works only for the bulbs with the linear current regulator chips. The PWM type drivers may need another method to hack. They also now make 25w (equiv) bulbs that use only a couple watts and run very cool. For some reason A19 style 25w equivalent LED bulbs were hard to find.

[@johncoops6897]

​@@MagruderSpoots- you should never reduce the current in Exit lights, as that also reduces their light output. The performance of Exit lights is tested and certified, and this determines their spacing distances. The ENTIRE building compliance relies on the "rated" performance of the LEDs. ... By changing the LED type or output, you nullify the building's compliance. Therefore there is no point in having the system at all (there is no such thing as partial compliance). You might as well just switch off the Exit lighting system, as that will save you on electricity and maintenance.

[@CommenterRick]

Hi John, wanted to wish you Happy Holidays and thank you for all the great videos you've given everyone over the last year. My interest in electronics would be greatly diminished without your help.

[@JohnAudioTech]

Thank You and Happy Holidays!

[@Starbuckin]

They overun L.E.D.s (too much drive current) and not enough heat sinking. I bought star L.E.D.s off of Ebay that are 3 Watt or 5 Watt and are supposed to be run up to 500 mA. Truth is they won't last more than a few months even running at 350 mA. I have a string of them up that runs across my privacy fence. Cool White ones than run on a timer all night. I finally backed them down to 250 mA and they finally are lasting now some of them have been out there about 3 years now. They are still plenty bright at 250 milli Amps. Like you John I also noticed when they would go out when I was running them at 350 mA, it would always be the next time the timer turned on for the night after turning off that morning with them all working and one of them would be out causing the whole string to fail especially during could winter nights. So I also believe it's a heat cycling related problem. The ones I'm running are the star L.E.D.s. Under running them at only 250 mA seems to have fixed the problem.

[@jj74qformerlyjailbreak3]

We’re on that same wavelength again. I literally tore one down yesterday and concluded bad solder joint on the input of transformer. Also I have another where the pcb Traces cracked. By design of course. Other then that. Everything is Sine.

[@threeMetreJim]

A good explanation of failures mechanisms of LED bulbs. It matches my own experience and those of a couple of other people I know, and also of failures on-line (BigClive). The LEDs have a tough time as they are usually over run, and suffer a lot of heat stress. The light and heat from the LEDs also degrades the phosphor over time. You can usually tell bond failure because the LEDs will start to flicker randomly, and then get progressively worse. They will often work until they have been on for a while, before they've had a chance to heat up (sometimes it's the opposite: won't work unless warm). Three failures myself: One was a bad connection in the base and another looks like cracked solder joints on the LEDs from heat cycling. The third went back under guarantee (premature failure, but it almost reached it's guarantee period, only missing by a month) as it was an expensive shaped fluorescent replacement, so no details on the failure mode, although it did glow extremely dimly in the dark, as if something went very high resistance.

[@railgap]

Ever failed LED bulb I've examined (it was a hobby for a while, don't ask me how many) had the dropping capacitor fail. Not LEDs. When the LEDs fail due to heat, you will typically see some LEDs failed and some still working, except the cheapest junk bulbs that put all the dies in series, but it's not hard to find the failure with a simple DVM. Bottom line, if you're deciding between two bulbs, buy the heavier one. Not a joke.

[@levendlicht]

They are able to produce LED bulbs that almost never fail (Philips did a custom order for some Sheik in Dubai (the Dubai Special Edition LED Series). But they won´t sell them anywhere else in the world except Dubai (for the obvious reason that eventually nobody would need new lamps anymore). The main principal is that the LED´s work at a significant lower power (lower temperature), the other is using ´redundant´ components on the PCB. If one might fail, the other keeps working...

[@TonyFisher-lo8hh]

Some of the promos talk of up to 20,000 hours lamp lifetime. In domestic use that's 10-20 years.

[@tikaanipippin]

In some streetlamps, which get pretty hot, the phosphor is applied as a silicone layer over the blue LEDs on a heatsink. Over time the silicone layer detaches completely, and falls off, since the lamps face downwards, and the lamp ends up as a blue lamp instead of white. The detachment may be facilitated by condensation, due to the long period during the summer season when the lamp is off

[@1pcfred]

I wonder if the switch to glass envelopes on LED bulbs is to stop people from repairing them?

[@stevee7774]

My thoughts exactly. 👍

[@glynnetolar4423]

What? Apple now makes led bulbs?

[@LariFariYoutube]

Interesting to see... i am caretaker on a business property.. I had alomost all LED bulbs failed after 3 month or less...no matter what brand. Then i started to put a capacitor in series.. 1 or 2 microfarad..usually. A 12 Watt Bulb goes down to 3 Watt with 1 µF but..surprisingly, the light output is just a little bit less...not by much. Since than, i had no more burned LED bubsl, so far. They run way cooler and last longer... My conclusion..they are definitely ment to fail right from the factory. Greets from Germany..

[@johncoops6897]

The human eye has (approximately) logarithmic response to illumination levels. It also contains an automatic exposure compensation device called the 'Iris'. It takes about 10 times the illumination to double the perceived brightness. So doubling the light level makes no visible difference, which then quickly gets compensated by the iris anyway. It works the same way in the other dirction too. For this reason, a reduction in light levels will not change the apparent "brightness" to a significant degree. ... HOWEVER in a commercial premises the lighting levels fall under various laws, standards and building codes. Especially in Germany, where "all rules must be obeyed". If there is any accident or incident where visibility might be the cause, then you are in a world of problems if the insurance companies find out that you deliberately reduced the lighting levels below the respective minimum standards.

[@LariFariYoutube]

In this case, there is no such policy on this property...The Lights are on all night...just to keep burglers away. I i need mor light, i use two of the "pimped" lamps instead of one untampered.. Works great ;)@@johncoops6897

[@jeffreysmart2063]

Greeting from Canada. I have hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of units designed for TV concerts and theatre. I am happy for this comment as I'm currently doing some research in determining a bit issue here. Thanks for your post.

[@jagmarc]

Double the number of 50% output lamps. Job done. ​@@johncoops6897

[@billkraemer4710]

Schematic please.

[@jeffreysmart2063]

As a lead Electronics Technician for a special fx lighting company thanks for the video. I have a few more complex ones than this. Good refresher. 😊

[@HillsWorkbench]

Noticed a lot of them use a soft rubbery yellow goo instead of hard epoxy, guess I'm thinking of COB units...

[@JohnAudioTech]

I thought the same until I investigated these small SMD LEDs and it turns out to be a hardened epoxy like resin. All of the larger COB LED seems to use the rubbery silicone material that also has the phosphors mixed with it.

[@Salfke]

All the light bulbs from IKEA that failed at my home had led's burnt

[@rickpaulos]

I use a sharpie to write the install date on the plastic base, then the fail date. Shows me just how long they last. Most last for many years.

[@MACYNET323]

Now I have a question, are Led bulb drivers constant current? If a bulb have 5 Leds in series (9V each at 150mA), can I remove the one burned and replace it with a 3V led ( rated at 150mA)?

[@hellhound-si5oz]

I've had LEDs that have lost it forever and are still working I have one lights of America cool white LED has still working and then I've had other brands that have failed I even had a few fail during a power surge

[@jimbarchuk]

> a few fail during a power surge That's the capacitor.

[@kensmith5694]

I haven't had a single LED bulb fail yet. I have several CFL bulbs that date from 2001 and are still working but many of the 2001 era CFLs have failed at this point. I think a typical life on a CFL is about 20 years and that the LED bulbs will do better. LED bulbs tend to be driving their LEDs harder than is ideal. The efficiency of an LED decreases at high currents. You can think of it as the LED's working part having a nearly constant voltage across it and the losses are a resistance in series with the working part. I^2R losses apply to that resistance.

[@daveschmarder-US1950]

I've owned LED bulbs since 2011. (Paid over $30 for my first one!) I've had a few fail in my house early on. About 80% of my LED bulbs are smart bulbs made by WYZE. They have good CRI and great color saturation and whites. My nephew used to complain that his would flicker. He buys the cheapest stuff. I found out a way to check for flicker. I used my iPad camera pointed at the bulb and looked for flicker in the screen. I had only one that flickered, the rest must have excellent filtering.

[@iantheinventor8151]

Friend use to manufacture LED streetlights & he said its important that the LEDs are matched or they fail early 🤔

[@wbdill]

Excellent info. Thanks for sharing your findings.

[@boonedockjourneyman7979]

Great idea for a video. Almost all mine fail at the dropping cap.

[@micheals1992]

Ive been using filament LED bulbs for nearly 10 years and not had any fail apart from one that blew within 1 week of buying it, I got a free replacement. I reckon its because every single bulb I bought gets 130+lm/w. From day 1 I refused to buy any that was lower efficiency... So a bulb that produces 806lm should use 6.2w or less. LED filament bulbs have been falling in quality since day 1 though. The early 6w 806lm bulbs I have have 6 filament strands, the same supplier now sells them at 6.4w and they have 4 filaments about the same length as the previous 6 filaments, I flat out refuse to buy them. My new favourite is the LAP 3.8w 806lm bulb with 8 filament strands (212lm/w).

[@JohnAudioTech]

I'll have to check on those LAP 3.8w bulbs. That is impressive efficacy.

[@micheals1992]

@@JohnAudioTech I live in the UK and the LAP 3.8w 806lm warm white bulbs are £5.50 in Screwfix. There's also an intergral max efficiency surface mount bulb rated 3.8w and 806lm for the cool white varient (the warm white is rated 4.3w and 806lm), they're £4.98. Philips have just started doing an ultra-efficient range that are rated 4w and 840lm (210lm/w) but they're around £12 each, I haven't tried them but I can imagine they'll be available worldwide?

[@jagmarc]

It's 130 lm/W + at beginning of life, what's lm/W after 1,000 hrs?

[@dgrm7559]

My understanding limmited as it is of LEDS is that once they are burnt they are out, No flicker no coming on and off or flickering before burnout. So I assume that if one of these bulbs is flickering before complete outage then it would likely be a driver falirue of connection failure?

[@1marcelfilms]

I like the bulbs where there are 2 or 3 current setting resistors. I just break one off with heavy duty tweezers, instantly drops the power use in half or 2/3

[@abbeyclock4650]

Turn the light on and leave it on. Switching on and off shortens the life of the bulb. When I turn on a light, I leave it on until bedtime. I have some bulbs, which I leave on all the time: they have been on for six years so far.

[@artillerest43rdva7]

great information I just love their estimate of a life of 13 years! most I use are less then 3 years old, have had 4 fail so far, on the other hand I have CFL in my out side home lights they are around 12 years old! unlike the LED /CFL incandescent bulbs were made in the USA! the later are made in china!

[@scottdc2105]

Does heat have anything to do with the failures, if so do you think drilling some air holes in the plastic globe part of the bulb help vent the heat?

[@ShieyV2komputroniks]

With the filament type it got even worse, they cant cool down at all, already replaced two in a garden lightset , another going bad

[@Electrowave]

I, too, have a box of LED bulbs from my parents 🙂 One day I will go through them but many have the telltale black spots on the LED's.

[@jme36053]

LED bulbs are being overdriven to achieve the necessary light level equivalancies. To get a longer lasting bulb you’re gonna need one that is dimmer than you want.

[@iceberg789]

interesting analysis. i wish they came in glass metal packages to reduce plastic wastage.

[@videosuperhighway7655]

Whats interesting is new bulbs out where the :EDs are placed directly on a alumina ceramic heatsink and the body of bulb is where the driver sits. They stay cool and the ceramic heatsink does not expand and contract.

[@luizfernandolessa1889]

John e amigos, aquilo no Brasil as lâmpadas vinham com os leds sobrealimentados. Certa vez medi um led de 3v, e ele estava com 3,7v. Agora trabalho nos resistores de saída para os leds ou nos resistores de controle de amperagem nos circuitos integrados. Saudações.

[@GarryNichols]

What's a Cdpdcitor?

[@stevee7774]

😂

[@dadw7og116]

So, what is the overall MTBF?

[@tomthackston1442]

Thanks Sheldon .

[@defendukraine181]

They over drive the leds with too much current

[@joewoodchuck3824]

Someone could make money manufacturing screw in power reduction modules to cut back on the power that the bulb companies overrate more output with components meant for more conservative parameters. Years ago there was button like device to insert under the incandescent light bulb to reduce power. Maybe that format could work as well.

[@godfree2canada]

great stuff

[@tiagomello]

They are made to last over 10 years…. NOT

[@preston963]

They fail because the leds are over driven (planned obsolescence), but you can fix this by opening a new light n remove one of the usually 2 current sense resistors on the reg chip which lowers the drive n yes some of the light level but they won't fail as designed, I have proven this over many yrs!

[@3sotErik]

I'm getting a BUNCH of them that start flickering after just a few months.

[@gmcjetpilot]

LED package says 20 yr life.... most I have last for 8 yrs and still work. Except some only 2-3 years. I just saw a video on why some go away, enclosed fixture... I have been a LED only homeowner for 8 yrs. I had one filament LED bulb fail in 5 yrs. The standard SNOW CONE type a few. By far the WORST LED I have are my Recessed Track Lighting, GU10 or spot lights. I have 6 of them and they are in kitchen and the most used lights in my house. Of the 6 track lights I installed 1-8 yrs ago only 2 are original, may be 3? I have replaced these bulbs at least 6 times, some positions twice. At first I bought expensive ones. Then I went to cheap Walmart brand that says 20 YR LIFE... Ha ha. The track light fixtures are NOT totally enclosed but in a CAN, with air vents in back. The face of the bulb is open. I doubt the LENS is doing a lot of cooling. I can say the original GU10's I bought looked well built to last a long time, but clearly some failed in 8 yrs. The cheap ones are good for 2-4 yrs. Again it says 20 yr life.

[@vincentrobinette1507]

LED elements fail, because of cost cutting measures. They put too much power into too few modules. If they doubled the number of elements, and applied half the current to each, you could run these CONTINUOUSLY for 10-13 years, with no more than 10% degradation in light output. At that point, the failures would be limited to the power supplies. With the increased efficiency, the bulbs could run on slightly less power, and the cooler operation would greatly increase the life of capacitors, inductors, and other power supply components. I'm happy to pay the extra few $'s for the extra LED modules!

[@theoneohmresistor]

hey John, what brand are those glass good PF, 95 CRI 4000K bulbs? It has everything i need!

[@JohnAudioTech]

TCP brand. I bought them at 1000 Bulbs.

[@jagmarc]

Well all the years they'd spent working out how to make them fail is reason why LED lamps had took so long to catch on.

[@andymouse]

Great info !...cheers.

[@mikebellestri5245]

What causes them to flicker?

[@johncoops6897]

You should try watching a video before asking silly questions about it. 🙄

[@janosnagy4382]

Less powerful LEDs fail less often.

[@Anon_-qz5cg]

I think the fastest way to "recover" most of the bulbs is with a 2200ohm 3w resistor and a diode (FOR 110/127V!).

[@MartinLundström-l4v]

Think socket is a hazard and just add cost... Lamps without socket wil come... More flexibla design...

[@ronaldmoravec2692]

Advertized to last 13 years, I have used for 4 and some just put into service. I have 50% failed already. Cheap Chinese manufacture. I still have many computer paper boxes fill of good old bulbs which I will go back to use.

[@overbuiltautomotive1299]

nice video

[@afzaalkhan.m]

Best colour rendition is at 3000k for home use

[@billkraemer4710]

Your opinion. I prefer 2700k.

[@radiotec76]

I’m going to take a stab at it before seeing and say the cause of failure is the electrolytic capacitors or whiskers from silver solder. Now zI’ll watch and see how close I got.

[@jonfreeman8102]

2+6+2+14= 24 Not 22. Just a heads up

[@Sctronic209]

The 2 capacitors are part of the drive circuit. 6+2+14=22

[@t1d100]

Interesting

[@glynnetolar4423]

Led bulbs suck at color rendering. Few of the cheerleaders for LEDs talk about that. And it's not just CRI. Look at the actual special graph. It's not smooth.

[@lezbriddon]

Buy 10w+ bulbs, mod them to run at 5w, everlasting bulb. 'its the law' in dubai that they have to last or you wont be selling them... theres an old big clive video on dubai bulbs edit: meh i'll save you all from searching lol kzbin.info/www/bejne/oZ3Ee6Slm6imq5Y

[@mickeythompson9537]

LED bulbs are all so shit - I'd swear it's a scam the landfill companies invented to keep themselves in business. Most recent development is LED fittings that have to be replaced in their entirety, by a qualified electrician; there is no replaceable bulb.

[@ellisandrews440]

These bulbs are a scam. They say they last thousands of hours and they don’t. They are expensive as well. I just like and buy the old bulbs until the powers to be stops making them. Forces to buy these

[@dextertech6570]

Where is Snickers?

[@JohnAudioTech]

Sadly, he passed away a year and a half ago.

[@dextertech6570]

@@JohnAudioTech I'm very sorry. He will be missed

[@mmuller2402]

Cdpdcitor 😂

[@bwhog]

"Focus bouncing in and out." Learn how to manually focus (or lock the focus) your camera. Problem solved.

[@MartinLundström-l4v]

Fillaments garbage Loose intensity...