MFT Table Build. Using The Parf Guide System MK2. With Problems!!! Part 1

[@NewBritWorkshop]

Hi John, This is the first time that I have visited your channel and have to congratulate you for the most superb presentational style, excellent explanations and a lovely friendly manner. I note that you had some accuracy issues and can now give you and your viewers some advice. It is absolutely critical that when making a top that is wider than the length of one of the rulers that you start in the middle (symetrical to the top) and work outwards - look at Page 6 of the manual that comes with the system. You then work outwards to the left and to the right from there in order to minimise compound errors. You knew that you were experiencing a compound error as you mention this at about 32 minutes. I thought that your remedy to correct the situation was very sensible provided the whole of your top row is in a straight line. Again, had you started in the middle and worked outwards to the left and right any compound error would be minimised. I used this technique to create my new tracksaw cutting station which is absolutely spot on: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rnvClZuYfsl6p6c and the 4 cut test: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aqHLfWCCgLJlosk If you are going to create a multi-use top like this then it might be possible to identify where the key holes that require perfect accuracy should go. So, that forward planning would leave your down draft area (to the left as it appears in the video) to a latter stage in the drilling process rather than at the start of the work. Now you do say that you expect to replace this top in about a year's time and I am sure that that the new top will be perfect. Apart from that minor compound error your explanation is perfectly clear and it is not often these days that I manage to get to the end of such a long video - well done. Peter

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Thanks for the advice Peter, I will share that in a update video. Having checked everything I'm now pretty sure It was an error on my part and not the rulers. The final result after I corrected the error is pretty spot on. I will follow your advice on future table tops. I have been following your videos and really enjoying your content. Thanks John.

[@bryang-p7184]

Many thanks . Indeed by working around the perimeter of the grid first by creating 90 degree corners you multiply any discrepancies I believe. Almost the reverse action of the four cut test. I wonder what the inaccuracy was actually though ? Could it be that the frame itself was not a flat plane .? We're the 2x4 studs jointed flat first. If not did the MDF insulate slightly. So if it undulated he PARF sticks would effectively become shorter between 2 points if they followed an unsdulation! Just a thought. Many thanks for the video

[@63DegreesNorth]

Peter and John, you guys are absolute gents. I take such enjoyment from seeing two of my favourite youtubers showing how all others should behave, discussing matters in a helpful manner, with respect and humility. 'Good on you' both!

[@neilbarnwell]

Hello Peter. I wanted to comment on your thoughtful and considered response. It's understandable to want to jump to the defence of the Parf guide kit, but you did so with aplomb. On the subject of the "drift", I wondered, as it's such tiny amount, could it be that because one ruler lies on top of another at one end, that in effect this creates a very slight horizontal triangle, thus pulling the top row towards the bottom row ever so slightly? I.e. if the ruler lies flat, then the holes are going to be exactly the right distance, but putting one end of the ruler on top of another technically makes a teeny tiny arc. I might not have explained myself very well. :S

[@vasconcelosm12345678]

@@JohnMcGrathManInShed wouldn’t the fact that placing one ruler on top of the other when making your triangle cause the slight discrepancy because the ruler is no longer laying flat on the surface?

[@DanMioc1]

The Parf guide rulers are identical and because of this when you lay one on top of the other you effectively shorten the top ruler by a fraction of a millimeter. If you work out from the middle this error is negligible but work around the edge in a circle amplifies the error.

[@jyfjgtyuh]

Make sense, because the upper ruler now sits diagonally from the higher side where the two rulers are connected, to the lower side, where the upper ruler meets the table top. A solution can be to add a shim under the upper ruler, the same thickness as the ruler or for the manufacture should make the upper ruler twice as thick (except for the connection part). In any way, that's a design issue and not user error, and you should not have this issue in such an expensive system.

[@EdRopple]

@@jyfjgtyuh I bought a Parf Guide system a few weeks ago and immediatelly caught this error - I have 3D printers so it wasn't hard to print a shim, but you're totally right, what's this doing getting out the door with such a mistake?

[@theftworthrealtor]

I bought this jig 2 years ago when I made my first MFT top and I had completely forgotten about the alignment issue, I had the exact same thing happen to me on the last row of holes and could not figure out what I did wrong....good to know it wasn't just me. I solved the problem just the way you did, using the drilling jig to correct the problem and it worked like a champ. I was watching your video as a refresher since I am about to build a new workbench and want to include the MFT system on half the top...despite the little alignment issue it's a great jig and has worked great using with my track saw as well as an awesome way to clamp material when making assemblies.

[@robertchopp5477]

I have had the same result on my first mft board. You need to use all 3mm pins when you are drill the guide holes. You need to reference all 6x8 x10 off the first 10 holes. When I did this and made sure the rule was secure the error did not occur on the next mft tables.

[@tistiettatutis]

Hi John. I bought the Parf Guide System MK2 and starting drilling holes the other day. I ended up having the exact same alignement issue you had on the last drill holes. I examined what might have happend and I came to the conclusion that when you form the triangle, and have everything sitting absolutely perfectly (important fact), there still is some minor wiggle room at the end of the ruler. So when you would happen to push slightly against the ruler when drilling your holes, this might result in just a tiny fraction of misalignement, resulting in your pins not matching up when you try to drill the holes across the other side. What I did to correct it, is push the ruler a tiny bit back and lock it in place with a clamp and redrill the holes that didn't match up. My advice to others is to not start drilling all holes right away after drilling the frist hole. But to first check wether your "number 10" hole matches up with the other side (if you already have done the other side ofc). If it doesn't you can still correct it early on.

[@markhedquist9597]

I think this may have been a priceless experience for me watching this video and reading the comments. The problem you ran into with the holes being off, your solution, then the conversation with Peter about the process was quite educational. As I just received my Parf gear three days ago and am working on finalizing my bench design, this couldn't have come at a better time. Now I have a much clearer idea of how to achieve perfection in my build. Thanks so much!

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Glad it helped!

[@andymarshall2201]

John, I’ve just learnt more about pythagoras/math from you in a few minutes than i did at school 40 years ago! Top man, love the videos.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Glad to help!

[@SandyMasquith]

Thank you John. Great demonstration. I appreciate you spending the time to describe the problem you ran into. Your explanation of the problem was very clear. I hope you can figure out where the system went wrong! That’s a lot of money for that system. Thankfully you caught the issue where you could correct for it.

[@geolisadrag-racing2349]

Yeah Sandy i agree at the price the system needs to be nearly perfect; and it is. I am 90% sure that it had to do with the size of his top. You only start in from a corner when your top is not deeper than the rulers. I think the instructions tell him to start in the middle? His fix was awesome & the video really shows what's great about KZbin;. That consumers, like you and me can watch the system used over & over before we try it on our dollar. One of Peter Parf's videos on The New Brit Workshop channel, shows him following the start from center instruction. I think it's his portable cutting station build. ~♿Lisa🔨

[@VideoPixelStudio]

Great video. I had similar problems with my Parf jig earlier this year,despite starting in the middle and moving out towards the edges. I discovered a minute discrepancy between the 2 Parf sticks. I think they probably came from 2 different batches. Axminster replaced them with no problem and my second attempt was perfect.

[@SLOWBOAT2CHINA]

Thanks for the very informative video, John. I had not thought of building a bench the way that you did. Great idea! And I really appreciate you discussing and demonstrating the error. I could totally see myself having the same problem when I build my tabletop as I would have intuitively started at one end as well. So, thank you for highlighting the issue. It’s also very cool that you and Peter discussed the problem/remedy respectfully here in the comments section. Kudos to you both for setting a fine example of diplomacy and decorum.

[@2tall54]

I have watched the guy who designed this system and he advises that you can flex the ruler slightly when drilling the 3mm holes when you are drilling the holes between the two pins when they are at positions 1 and 10 on the ruler. That is why he recommends that you clamp the ruler when you first begin drilling the first line of holes on a long table that you are making. See him making a track saw cutting station with this system at the following link: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rnvClZuYfsl6p6c He explains the process well and why much better than I can.

[@frankblack1481]

If you’re happy w the MFT life, and you’re not already subscribed, then I *highly* recommend Peter Millard’s ‘10 Minute Workshop’.

[@craigbutler1959]

The Bisch Basch Bosch channel is also good as well as Dave Stanton and Ron Paulk.

[@simonablett8613]

I made my own bench using the Parf guide and I found it to be 100% accurate. I have to say I am surprised you have one that is off. Perhaps send it back. Nice presentation style, by the way. Great video.

[@danielgeng2306]

Great video, I’m an electrician here in America and also a lifetime woodworker, I bought the PARF guide system as well haven’t used it yet but I’ll be extra careful when I do. Thanks!

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Hi Daniel good to hear from another Woodworking Electrician! I'm glad the video was helpful!

[@cuper4295]

It looks like your problem has been pretty well analyzed. For future projects like this, you might want to read any basic machining text on the subject of reference holes, reference edges and reference surfaces. Machinists have to place complex hole (or feature) patterns to .0005" (about .015 mm) routinely and have developed standard methods for doing so with minimum error. I came to woodworking having first been a machinist and am constantly amazed at how little cross fertilization there is between the two crafts. I use standard metal working set ups all the time in my woodworking, to the constant amazement of my woodworking friends.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Being a machinists is a great skill set to have, my area of expertise is electrical. Woodworking is my hobby. I have always had an interest in machining I'll take a look at the texts you recommend.

[@cuper4295]

@@JohnMcGrathManInShed I was actually an electrical engineer for my career and a machinist for relaxation. Now retired, I've taken up woodworking as well. Keep up the good videos.

[@chigeryelam4061]

Nice to see people finding solutions btl in a respectful and cooperative manner, well done John McGrath and NewBritWorkshop (Mr Parf).

[@vernescott1156]

Thanks, John, for a great video! I just finished drilling the 3 mm holes in my 30 x 75" MFT top and all of the holes at the top ended up lining up perfectly. I used a clamp on Parf rule to drill the first row of holes, only used the 3 mm pins thereafter. I also made my triangles with the 8 hole dimension on the bottom of the triangles. It seemed like that would lock the vertical rule in place a little better than using the 6 dimension on the bottom. Otherwise, I did everything exactly as you did. Very impressed with the precision of the system!

[@Golgafrinchamdent]

Hi John, Update to my comment below - I've built my top and made my grid of 3mm holes, and now I'm coming back with the 20mm. It's about the same grid size as yours. I did it a little differently... - Did the first bottom row just like you. - Built the same triangle to make the left column. * Built a 'mirror' triangle to make the right column. * Then used the rule across the top #10 holes to make the top row. (pins aligned perfectly) * Repeated rows with a single rule pinning in sequential column holes. So I only built the triangle twice... left & right mirror image columns. From that point on, I used a single rule to make the rows. And even at the #10 holes (at the top of the columns) both pins went in flawlessly. Then I used a single rule to extend the rows +3 holes each. Checked the column again from bottom to top, and the pins had no issues. But I find no fault with the way you did it either. Should have lined up even though you started with two _perpendicular_ triangles. Still a mystery I guess.

[@jimpike3489]

Hi John, nice new bit of kit, glad you managed to correct the ruler fault, you will be up and using soon. I made a worktop very similar a long time ago with a string line and ruler, the customer used it as a piece of art with coloured wooden pegs and he mounted it to his wall, he was only 17 so go kids. As below john check out Peter Millard's 10 minute video's everything MFT & Festool. Thanks for sharing John

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

I will check it out

[@sidknowles4752]

Hi John how is the wiring for the MFT table going we have built a 8 * 4 table in the centre of our new workshop and not sure how to run power and air line our first choice would be over head but it would need to fold up out of the way if needed any ideas.

[@tadge74]

That seems a lot of work and cost. Fortunately i have a 10x5 cnc machine so could do this simply even though i dont have a MFT table. Was thinking of offering a cutting service for MFT and after watching this I think it may be popular. Good video. Cheers Ian

[@Smokeyr67]

If your worried about cost, buying a CNC table blows that out of the water👍😁

[@GNolan2005]

Where are you located?

[@tadge74]

@@Smokeyr67 it certainly does but i have a CNC for work

[@tadge74]

@@GNolan2005 yeovil, Somerset👍

[@peterpage7322]

Great video, and shows anyone also wanting to make an MFT table where you might come across problems. For warned is for armed as it were. You explained it all very well and very clearly, thank you. I’m now looking forward to your following videos.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Glad you got something from it Peter

[@christycullen2585]

Hi John The same thing happened to me. I first done an MFT top 1100mm x 717mm and there was no problem and then I decided to do a larger table 1720mm x 1100mm and I ran into a similar problem like what you encountered. I thought I must have done something wrong but was baffled because I was sure I was thorough enough in my preparation. Love all your videos and jealous of your workshop. Best Regards Christy

[@mrnobelnigel]

Looks like great bench. The Parf system is a good investment given that you can make multiple table tops. Already looking forward to the next parts 👍

[@dan__________________]

I would recommend a small dust extraction unit connected to your sander over a down draft table. To make a down draft table as effective as a good quality dust extraction / vac you will need a lot of airflow and many many more holes in the table top.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

I will use a combination as I do with my other down draft table, it's really only to aid dust collection

[@myfaceback100]

great video i made my mft table two week ago and it is great. great cutting with the tracksaw. made mine in a ron paulk style with storage for Makita type two boxes

[@Golgafrinchamdent]

Thankyou for posting your experience. I am currently deciding between this Parf system and one where I can use a plunge router. As careful as you obviously are, anyone could find themselves in a similar jackpot. In a system where it's whole purpose is accuracy, an error like that would rob all my enthusiasm and I'd feel just sick. I like your solution to correct the error. Only thing I might have done differently is to relieve the 3mm hole out to maybe 1/4" or so... that way the pilot point of the 20mm bit won't pull against the guide & away from true center. Trusting that the rules are made perfectly, the only reason I can come up with is maybe the overlap when building the triangle? Because the rules are no longer co-planar? Seems like a nat's ass of difference, but... maybe?

[@allanbeasley4565]

Great honest video John, the only thing I can think of regarding the drift is maybe the top is not perfectly flat. You fixed it anyway, so no problem.

[@eamonnfanton2165]

Just watched this. I would say the rulers are perfect, but the surface of your top is not perfectly flat. Even the slightest bow in the surrrface will result in the rulers measuring a slightly shorter or longer distance But you solution was spott on, use the first line of holes as your reference holes and measure from them.

[@nt123qwe]

Hi John, thanks for your great video. I've just taken the plunge and bought the PARF2 system and your slight mistake will prove very helpful. Greetings from Southampton.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Welcome along, I'm glad it was useful

[@donalfalvey145]

Hi John. I feel your pain. After watching your excellent video i was a little concerned about the accuracy. Then I saw Peter respond and his explanation seemed spot on so I went ahead and ordered my Mk2 set from Axminster. The kit arrived and the quality of the engineering is excellent, almost too good to use. Not one to employ half measures I bought a 2400x1220x25 mm MR MDF board and set about making my bench. I noted what Peter said and the and started in the middle of the board or about 70cm from the left edge of the board. Drilled the first line along the edge and everything seemed ok. I used the guides in a triangle and created the left hand line at 90 degrees. did the same for the right hand. I now have a 10x10 U shaped grid. To my surprise the guide fitted across the top perfectly and I drilled out the holes. So far so good. I had decided I would do all the 3mm holes and decide later which ones to drill out to 20mm. I moved down line by line and now had a 10x10 grid all looking good. Bearing in mind the problem you had I didn't extend the guides out to the left and I used them to create another triangle for my first line (6 more holes) then again to create the 10 holes perpendicular to the new 6. This is where my problems started. The leftmost line did not meet at the top. I ignored these and came in 1 and did it again (thinking I could employ your method to correct the problem. It still didn't line up so I began to suspect my original 10x10 grid. I tested every hole in the the grid vertically first (as I had used a single guide horizontally so should be ok) and there were a few very slight issues. I decided to check the lines horizontally. Ie the same way they were cut. I would expect them to slot in perfectly and they didn't. Some were perfect, some caused the guide to move the tiniest amount. I concluded that there is some lateral flex in the guides. Peter used clamps on the first line, but, you can't do that in the middle of the board. I even tested just cutting a straight line of 10 holes without clamping and the alignment was not spot on. The guide appears to from side to side. So I have a board with loads of holes in it. None of which I trust. Luckily the drill was not long enough to go all the way through the 25mm board so I will turn it over tomorrow and try again. This time I will drill the middle hole of every line first and use the 3rd pin in the middle to increase the stability. I also checked the guide hole alignment which seems to be spot on.

[@donalfalvey145]

It seems I may have had a bad set as there was play between the sticks and drill guides. Axminster shipping me a replacement today.

[@vapeurdepisse]

In my opinion it should be bang on no matter where you start, unless the system isn't fully accurate. That you have to start in the middle (as Peter Parf said), and work around the slop to get an acceptable result, is proof that this system will never equal a CNC drilled top. It should be possible to ask a local CNC shop to take care of this job for less than the cost of the system. If you're 1mm off when starting at the edge, then you're still 0.5mm off when starting in the middle. That's actually quite a bit out of square.

[@xinixxagnix201]

He just made a error and is not the system, but a human faillure.

[@stevennachlas9596]

John, very well done video. Good pace and very informative. I should first say that I am here in the states, in Houston. I have bought several times now from Axminster, and their pricing, shipping and service is first rate. It’s as easy or easier than buying some things here. They are an awesome company and a tip of the hat to them. Also kudos to Peter Parfitt for his contributions to the Parf system. I have exchanged emails on a number of occasions with Peter and he has been most gracious. His products are very useful and extremely well thought out. This was a really nice build that you did and very insightful. I originally bought the Parf Guide System Mark 1 as soon as it came out. It was a great system but I felt that it needed a couple of improvements. The Mark 2 system made everything better that was needed and then some. A user would be happy with either system but if they see a couple of MFT style tables in their future, I definitely recommend the Mark 2. Again, thank you so much for your contribution.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Thanks Steven glad you enjoyed the video

[@RichSobocinski]

I wonder if your slight discrepancy can be due to a slight dip in the mdf from lack of support in the field?

[@paulclarke2773]

Great video mate! My take on it is that once you created the first 90 degree corner everything else should have been paralleled of that. Two 90 degree angles coming off a short end (1220) will inevitably run out of parallel along the 2440 side. Thinking of building this all the same. Great set up Thanks again Paul

[@joncarter3038]

I suspect that when you were using the rulers you didn't seat the bush (on the pin) properly. Then as you've pulled the ruler along, it's slipped a fraction from the edge of the bush to the edge of the pin and put the rest of it out of line. Irrespective of that it was great that you showed us that mistakes can be made, no matter what equipment we use and that is a lesson we can all learn from. A great video as always John.

[@ElliotNesterman]

That the discrepancy starts after hole 9 suggests that it may have crept in when extending the first row to 17 holes using just two pins in the ruler, rather than extending the row using the rulers in a triangle.

[@ianwatson9032]

May be ask Peter Parfitt the guy who designed the jig, he may have a reason for your discrepancy. Find him on new brit workshop.

[@mikehalpin7542]

Hey John, did the manufacturer get back to you on the discrepancy. You’re exceptionally thorough so I’d be shocked if you didn’t use it 100% correct. I’ve bought the same jig kicking off this week to make an MFT.

[@MichaelBrown-kk6ck]

Parfitt’s vid starts in middle of first table edge and clamps down the ruler and after all 3mm holes are drilled, he moves ruler a fair ways to left or right, so he repositions ruler a minimum number of times to cover the whole span he wants to cover. Less moves and clamping will eliminate the error. It also halves the number of holes beyond the extent of the original ruler placement on each side, also minimizing the error. So I wouldn’t be so quick to blame the rulers.

[@johnpm1605]

Peter Parfitt has replied and John has pinned it to the top. 👍

[@cathalwhelehan]

this was a really great video - your explanation of the problem you ran into and how you solved it was top notch. As someone who's been thinking of getting this system for a while, it was very useful to watch. That error you discovered was a bit weird though - at first I thought it might have come from the way one ruler has to sit on top of the other to form the triangle by effectively shortening the ruler that sits on top by a tiny amount as it has to rise up by the thickness of the ruler that lies underneath it. But that doesn't really account for why the error only started happening at a certain point on the grid and would surely have more likely resulted in the angle formed by the two rulers being slightly off from true 90°, rather than resulting in a row of holes with spacings that didn't quite stack up at the last hole. A real headscratcher and I'm slowly getting a headache just thinking about it ;). Anyway, many thanks for the great demo - all things considered, I reckon I'll still get this jig as you proved that any error that does occur can be easily solved using the other parts of the jig if you need to. Looking forward to seeing the rest of the build!

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Thanks Cathal glad the video was useful

[@mikes3286]

John, Recently discovered your channel (I was looking for Bosch track saw reviews). I thoroughly enjoy your videos! I like that you are exceptionally accurate when necessary and 'good enough' when not. Keep up the excellent work! -Mike

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Thanks Mike, welcome along.

[@geirleirvik1478]

I have the parf guide system v1, never had an issue with any of the tops I made. Heard you were doing 2.54cm - one inch think - that would be an issue with theading clamps through you get into trouble 19mm is the dimension you should stick to. Otherwise you will end up having to chamfer on both sides of the board - not optimal

[@memezilla4370]

Great video John. I am enjoying watching all your videos as you go along. When I eventually get my proper workshop I will be doing one of these. Thanks

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Glad you are enjoying the videos

[@trydiy8194]

On the channel, I want to share how I create various things from wood,metal, construction experience and many other things made with my own hands. I have no special education, no production experience,there is only a desire and desire to improve skills. I hope my videos will motivate the viewer

[@michellea3022]

I just built my 4th top from the parf system. I had this same error happen on table 2. I found that if you lay the hypotenuse ruler flat on the table and the straight ruler on top of it to drill , all is well. I have then tested this in reverse and always seem to get the error.

[@craigbutler1959]

Now combine the dogholes with Microjigs Matchfit Dovetail system. It can make clamping even easier and help eliminate the clamping deadspots you will find with the supports under the MDF top

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Cheers Craig I'll take a look at them.

[@Myrddraal12]

Awesome video John. Disappointed I have to wait for the next videos now. Could of watched it all in one go.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Cheers Gary, more to follow.

[@LivingTech]

Great video, John. Thanks for this. Re: the system being that 1mm out, I'm not sure whether this matters, but as you were going around the table, I was wondering whether you were compounding error, so by the time you got to the other side, it was, for example, 4 times a (for example) a 0.25mm error. In any case, you did what you needed to do, and got all perfect holes, so that was nice to see. Thanks again!

[@richardchiggas4328]

Just my observation, but I thought from the first time I saw a video on this system that an inherent error would occur due to overlapping the rulers on each other thus multiplying the error. I think this could be overcome by only having the hypotenuse ruler always lying in the same orientation with the x, y rulers. In other words, the error can be induced by the fact that the rulers lie upon each other ether, which in theory will induce an error of length in the triangle sides. I haven't used my parf system yet, but as a mathematics freak the fact that the length of the ruler is shortened minutely because it isn't coplanar with the whole of the triangle. I think I can overcome this issue by never overlapping rulers x and y, and always having the z ruler lying on top of x and y, thus negating the small error induced by the overlapping of the rulers. I'll let you know if I'm full of shit when I try my method out.

[@leebritton6341]

Great work. I’m so impressed with the work and advice given💡👍🏻

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@claudemaximus9409]

This is not a negative comment, ultimately if you want to work with MFT style table top , accuracy and flatness is #1 .

[@projectwood7221]

Compound error...nothing bad if detected...I ve enjoyed this video john, tks. Also if the shed is cold, those rules will shrink even 1/4 mm , hardly noticeable...is there a degree Celsius rating on it?

[@TerryPullen]

Both rules would shrink the same amount nullifying any difference.

[@jonathanbell8940]

Enjoying watching your channel bud, nice work! Looking forward to watching the channel grow.

[@mitchellkasdin1899]

Might have been better to use drill the last vertical holes. Then use the triangle to establish the next section of holes. You’re correct to assume something was off by a small margin .003 then compounded the error. I preplanned my MFT top and decided I was going to make a fractional mistake or an errr, so I cut two sections which will butt-align. Thanks for sharing.

[@mitchellkasdin1899]

I just finished a 27”x72” MFT style table. The parf guide is nice but it’s easy to get a slight deviation from human error or the chuck having runout. . I probably spent 10-14 hours drilling out the top. I think part of woodworking is knowing how to “make it right.” I’m glad you shared the experience, so I was mindful when I was drilling. Cheers + HNY 2022

[@MCsCreations]

Pretty interesting project, John! 😃 The table is looking great, but the discrepancy would drive me crazy! 🙄 Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊

[@rikpasmans3155]

I've had the parfguide mk. 2 system for a while now, same problem. Here's my expirience: I was drilling the 3mm holes in one motion, even though peter tells you in the instruction video to use a pecking motion... turns out that the pecking motion allows the dust to exit along the drill bit, and if you drill it in one motion it bundles up under the drillguide. this lifts the guide up a tiny bit and then you're not drilling straight down anymore... so that's how I got my first top to be off square... I now knock the drillguide on the table before fitting it on the ruler, that normally makes the dust fall off the bottom. anytime it doesn't feel 100% stable I take it back out, and clean it. The second top that I made I worked clean and methodically, checking every step in order to not introduce errors... the result was better but the holes still didn't line up with the pins sometimes... Turned out that indeed my rulers were not straight. You can check this by turning them over face to face and using the guide block and the small screw piece to fixate both ends. in my case the holes in the middle of the rulers didn't line up. (the rulers aren't straight but that's no problem, as long as the holes are drilled in a straight line) UJK sent me two new and checked rulers without a problem, and on these the holes do line up. Great and fast service. however my third top still wasn't as good as I expected it, the holes line up good enough that you can force the pins in, but you feel it's not perfect. It's a great tool to make a bunch of holes, but if you don't do everything possible to prevent small errors the end result isn't exactly square. I guess on my next top I will start with the rows that I will actually use for crosscutting, and do the rest of the holes after that. I guess my expectations of precision tools are too high.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Thanks for sharing you experience.

[@i679n5]

I have had the same experience with the MK1. Thank you for your tips. What I will do, checking and layout wise, is to 1. do the top row (fence and guide rail dog), only mid 10 holes. 2. Do the 6-8-10 for both left and right side. Probably better to have 8-side on the top (horizontal) and the 6-side vertical (Maybe it does not matter if you need to prolong the hole row later). I only make two holes in the bottom. 3. Check the bottom two holes horizontally. If this 8x6 square is good then I can continue with the holes needed, being very clear on which is first, second and third reference.

[@ChristopherClaudioSkierka]

Hi, purchased the stuff, made the table holes etc, all the silver dogs within the orange part fit into all the holes BUT somehow overall I always out between 1/5 and 1/3 of a mm. I have no idea how . table is flat. I did actually return the orange part for a new one since there was a little play it (shop agreed also), saying that I ended up using those silver pins through the holes only (I more or less made 20mm in around half of the possible amount). Overall I think there is some quantifiable luck involved with this method/equipment, I mean how can any of the parts be slightly out if made by cnc machining. My table is flat and the size is around 9 holes by 15 holes so not supper massive. Quite annoying really with all that money spent, pins go in to all the holes through the orange part etc but an issue is there.,,, driving me potty!. Glad yours worked out

[@proteus1]

I worked out from the center on a piece of 8x4 sheet. I did everything as by the documentation. The holes dont marry up after doing rows and columbs. They are are out by a mill or so, even after placing the pin in the rule/guide/rail, it's a dead hard challenge to get it in the pin hole.

[@michaelrosenlof1084]

Great presentation, John, very well done ✅👍

[@draztiqmeshaz6226]

Way to stay calm my friend. It sounds maddening. I would be willing to bet that the discrepancies are cause by the very slight z angle created by the rulers overlapping. A few extra lengths of the same thickness metal as the rulers (some 1x and some 2x) placed UNDER the 2nd and 3rdly placed ruler piece, and BETWEEN the 3rd and 1st where they intersect ; would eliminate this discrepancy, guaranteed.

[@martinfeeney374]

Hi John I am in the process of building a large MFT table and watched this video a couple of years ago, I remembered you said you used 25mm MDF, did this give you a problem when using the clamps through the deeper holes or did you do something underneath to solve any issues.

[@barbarianatgate2000]

Love your channel. Another great video. Only recommendation I have is to avoid admitting on camera that you have a little bush around your 3 mil pin. Lol. Cheers.

[@jamestaulbee4791]

Thanks John. I've long wanted to make one of these MFT's but cannot spend the money on the Parf guide. Maybe rent or borrow from someone.

[@terrycallaghan8269]

Awesome job very informative. Keep up the great work.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Glad you liked it!

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

I'm leaning towards it being human error on my part

[@anatoliyefimov4984]

How did you secure the mdf table top to the base?

[@arthurritsma3881]

A person of few words. I like that.

[@SirBenJamin_]

You mentioned that the CLS was twisted and not straight. Which is what is supporting the MDF. Are you not going for perfectly flat surface then? I built a smaller version of what you have and it sagged in the middle. So I suspect yours will sag even more.

[@indophile108]

I think I know what the issue is with the holes not perfectly aligned. With the jig, the diagonal ruler is sitting on top of the other ruler, which adds a very tiny amount of error. That compounds over several holes.

[@ThekiBoran]

That makes sense.

[@nevillewebb2856]

Hi John, great video! I notice that you used the long side (8) adjacent to your position when you marked out the first 90 deg angle and measured up the vertical axis by 6 holes... I think this is preferred as it reduces any movement because the enclosed angle is wider and therefore more stable. However, I think on the second right angle you measured 6 holes along the horizontal axis (you moved round the bench to the end) and then measured up the vertical axis 8 holes. This made the resulting angle a more acute angle and therefore less stable. This is maybe how you started the line slightly off which became noticeable later on. Having said all that, the learning point here is - when setting out, always measure everything from your base point/line, never continue adding measurements as you proceed (especially if you’re going around corners too). You picked this up in time and you adjusted by squaring off each column from the baseline. All worked out in the end 👍👍👍

[@i679n5]

I have considered that as well without giving it too much time (8 holes horizontal, 6 holes vertical). Though what happens when you later want to prolong above 6 holes vertically. Maybe you should do your 8x6 box, check for square, then do a 8-6-10 square from a lower part of the 8x6 square - Instead of just prolonging the vertical column. What do you think? :)

[@MrJinga27]

Holey crap...lol that deviation would drive me nuts. I shouldnt of watched this just before bed!!...Nice work John.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Left me scratching my head

[@janburger4230]

After the second top that I made with the Parth jig things are getting better. The biggest variable in the system is the flex in the ruler. Clamping down the ruler should happen at hole 3 and 8 to help stabilize the center off the ruler. After drilling hole 0 and 10 and placing a pin in them, support the ruler with a straight edge, other ruler or straight timber without bending the ruler and drill hole 5 and place a pin. Still with support on edge drill other holes. If Peter Parker want to improve on his jig he should give us stiffer or wider rulers with no lateral flex. Drill colomn 0, 5 and 10 with Pythagoras method and side support the ruler and drill hole 10 and 5 and clamp if possible. Next step drill row 5 and 10, again with side support and clamp if possible, starting with center hole 5 and pin first, then rest of holes. Now drill column 1 to 9 and because row 5 is already drilled, you have centre support for all columns already in place. Check your angle of drilling, I have found some drilling curls under the ruler. Also make sure to put the drill guide with longer bushing far away when not needed. Work everything off the first reference line of holes where possible or as close to the the first row as possible. When extending left and right the biggest mistake will show if hole 5 on first row had some movement or ruler flex. It will also show on the Pythagoras column if hole 6 was used on horizontal line. The flex support and precision drilling of hole 5 is super crucial for the the accuracy of everything following. Making me think of getting more pins and drilling closer to hole 0 and 10, say 2 and 8, pin them, then drill 5, pin and complete rest of holes. I am going to ask Peter Parker for a wider set of rulers. The more you use the system and the more you cross check with ith the Pythagoras rulers the more accurate you become. The more you practice the luckier you get.

[@Annaisineire]

That's an amazing build John, so well done !!!

[@dworkin7110]

Well I'm coming to this 3 years later but having recently finished my own table setup which has a similar sized grid: 1. There appears to have been a manufacturing problem around this period and this may well be the cause: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jJLal56ji7WmZrc 2. As someone else pointed out you changed the reference plane which may have introduced an error, in the instructions it suggests creating the two vertical holes from the first horizontal line and then creating the second horizontal line making a square. Overall I found the system perfectly accurate despite the slight rise on the ruler over the distance. The rulers are 1m long and only 1.5mm thick. This means that (as far as I can workout with my rusty trig maths) The top (hypotenuese) ruler pulls the vertical ruler left and down a tiny amount making the horizontal shift due to the rise, assuming approx 800mm, 600mm and 1000mm (6/8/10) 0.0018mm or 1.8 microns which a 50th of a human hair thickness. If I'm wrong .. well school was a long time ago now :) If I'm correct then even with compound errors the effect is negligable over even a very large worktable.

[@daraghmcelroy272]

Great video john was planning making one of thease as my next bench

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Nice glad you found it useful

[@michaelplays2449]

Hi John,thanks for the video it was excellent !

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

You are welcome!

[@popcornlover948]

Amazing work and fix thank you

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

No problem 👍

[@danphilpott6302]

I am sure this issue has been covered many times over by now as your video is 3 years old. The issue you are having is not due to the equipment. If you go to “The new Brit workshop” channel, Mr. Parfett himself explains how to maximize the accuracy of hole positioning. You start at the middle of the table on the working side. You basically put a line parallel to the close edge centered in the table. Then use the 90 deg triangle to do left and right line out into the table. Then use one rule to fill lines between them. You then work out from there. You have minimal or no error at all at the outer holes that way. The way you did it, starting in one corner and going around the outside, amplifies any errors that may occur. I have done a full table as big as yours and did not experience any issues at all with the 3 mm or 20 mm holes. It is all down to the process. I like your videos as you show the issues along with the things going well. We learn as much from the errors. Thank you

[@cpzmelbs]

It’s not to blame, sure. But it’s a lot of money for something so unintuitive. There’s room for improvement in its design and implementation

[@stevevallis8450]

Hi John Great video, Im hoping to make a similar bench. What size mdf top did you use & what lengths did you use for the edge banding? Many thanks

[@stephenboyle8533]

You kicked the arse out of that mistake

[@brianveale1935]

Great demonstration John. Just an idea that you might build something in support of the Waterford hurlers. I would love to see a video of that.✊

[@hanssenden4410]

As Peter explains in one on his video's only the holes in the rulers are accurate, keep that in mind and use only the holes to set up yout 3 mm pattern.

[@markbongers9641]

The 96 mm distance of the holes is based on the standard used for kitchen cabinets, which is 32 mm, but a 20 mm hole every 32 mm is a bit much. As to the deviation, that must be a human error, otherwaise all the hole would be off and you would not be able to make a correct pattern, all the holes would be off.

[@roadie3124]

Is this a case of when all else fails, read the manual and follow the instructions?

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Pretty much

[@edgar0517]

I’m thinking the slight error would be due to the elevation between the bottom of the one ruler and the height of the 2 overlapping rulers, a shim of the rulers thickness should fix that

[@bradleytuckwell4854]

Well a year has passed for you but it’s fresh for me.I have bought the same system but have not built with it yet so you have me a little worried.if I have the same problem I don’t think I’ll be as calm as you. Like you said they are pricey I paid $480 Australian. Ok back to more of your channel and I’ll see how you got on I might just grab some popcorn oh yeah love your channel

[@colinsimpson1301]

Come on you just needed a Bigger hammer!!! Great Video love the way you explain what your doing now Subscriber keep up the great work cant wait on the new one to see it complete

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Thanks 👍

[@davidhull1610]

I suspect that the drift occurred because you couldn't clamp the rulers down to drill the first row of holes. The second hole would only have to drift by a fraction of a millimetre to move the later extension of that row out of line.

[@johndietz1266]

I bought the same Parf guide system and I’m very disappointed with it. The accuracy is not dead on! Too many variables that can affect the accuracy and make it almost impossible to get a consistent grid of holes. I know Peter said you were doing it wrong but that’s not the case it’s actually the design of the system that creates the errors.

[@geolisadrag-racing2349]

I loved everything about this video! I have some medical limitations; and entertaining and informative videos, like the ones you make, mean a lot to me. They help me pass the bad days, when building is out of the question. They also keep me excited about the good days and help me prepare to make the most out of my build days. Thank You. 👏👏 Best video intro on all of KZbin ever!!! I hate when "makers" in the present timeline, standing in front of completed builds, act like they are not in the builds future, or speak like the build isn't in the past. Or something to that effect, it's confusing. Their builds are not blockbuster films i can handle a spoiler or two. Thanks for taking the time to share your build and your experience with Pythagoras of Samos' and Peter of New Brit's precision system. They are great! You are Great! Dog Holes Rule!~ 🔨Lisa♿

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Thanks Lisa I'm really glad you enjoyed it. I'll do my best to keep the videos coming.

[@Tensquaremetreworkshop]

A golden rule of machining is to have a single origin reference point. All features should be directly referenced to this. Any incremental measuring system (such as the PARF system) will become increasingly inaccurate as the machining progresses. Errors add. Also, the method requires using 3mm dowels into wood(!) as the jig securing reference. Repeatedly. Once again, errors add. Using a template is simply much better. The CNC machine on which it is cut is NOT incremental, but referenced to an origin. The tolerance to each hole will be the same. Using wood as an engineering material is fraught with difficulties. What is not widely recognized is that the Festool MFT (the pre-cursor to all these designs) does NOT use the hole grid for locating the track rail- both the fence and the rail location is keyed to the aluminium frame of the table. And it is adjustable, so that build errors are not an issue. It is understood that a good table saw will have a cast-iron table top. There is a good reason for that...

[@FlyinTrapezious]

Excellent comment Mike, probably the best one made on this video. The dog holes in mdf are good for work holding but I don't trust them for square cuts using the steel dog hole pins.

[@kennelson7591]

I have watched a lot of different videos of people making MFT tops and most have used clamps to make sure the rulers stay in the correct place , so i was wondering if that might be what has caused the slight error, only a thought.

[@EddyCarroll]

Great vid as usual John - as is often the case, the mistakes and surprises are often the most useful bit! Looking forward to seeing the rest of the series.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Absolutely

[@EddyCarroll]

@@JohnMcGrathManInShed By the way, you're probably well into the router table project now, but you might find some interesting ideas here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g5msq32oib57eMU - exquisitely executed too

[@timfoster6892]

I would suggest you may have had some debris under the ruler, that gave you the half mil discrepancy? It doesn`t make any sense that it worked one way but not the next!

[@jruru89]

Is it possible that laying one ruler above the other could create that discrepancy as one moves further out from their starting point?

[@i679n5]

It should not give you too much of a deviation. If so then the Parf Guide would have systemic errors built in (and all MFTs would be off by same distance). Though when connecting two rules having the one you will drill in at the bottom (towards surface) will help. You can also counter potential error by which end you start with (and finish) but also raise the top ruler with a distance (so it becomes straight).

[@jruru89]

@@i679n5 Thanks for the response! Both your solutions would address that potential deviation on larger tables.

[@i679n5]

@@jruru89 I am maybe paranoid (having my MK1 rules worn out) but you could also do 1. Mark your rulers and consider which you use for which line. Then you can ask yourself the consequence if one would be too big/small/etc 2. Use Peter's advice for large tables in the manual. I.e. Do not only prolong a line but use the 6-8-10 triangle when prolonging. Do not prolong more then 3-4 at the time, etc etc.

[@breslaj4]

I know this is over a year old, but I was wondering, how many 2x4 (4x2) did you use?

[@markkoons7488]

If the discrepancy arose in my work I'd suspect my technique. Proof of the rulers's accuracy should be in how well the holes align between the two. We each have our own imagined use for an MFT top. Mine is to use a high pressure laminate skin on a 4x8 outfeed, cutting, and assembly table with Systainer storage below. I envision access to retrieve small objects that disappear down the dog holes. Did you have to chamfer the bottom side of your inch thick top to be able to dip your clamps into the holes? Have any of your viewers transferred the 32mm shelf pin holes in Festool track to a second strip of aluminum to help erect the 3-4-5 triangles? How about boring a couple of lines of equilateral-triangle holes to assist in cutting and assembling 3 or 6 sided shapes?

[@nialstewart8263]

John, great channel, where abouts are you ? When you got to the end of the first ruler should you not have done the first vertical row using the 2 rulers and 3/4/5, then used that to locate the extension of the horizontal bottom row? Despite what Peter says about starting in the middle I think this would have given an accurate reusult while starting at the end. ?

[@tonynotstated695]

The thing about this is that if you want to buy the Parf guide System then of course you will make square dog holes. The real video would be if you could show how to make a square jig using common tools and such without having to buy one more almost $200 "system" that you will use once and put on the shelf forever there after. Yes, I know, I can make many more tops with this system but I can do the same with a hole guide made out of phenolic sheet (cheap) or mdf. And yes, I know I will have to spend the time and money to make a square jig but that's exactly what wood workers like to do - make something ourselves and save money. So, while your presentation might be good, it's little else for someone who would actually "make" a top.

[@esixx17]

I tried mine twice. I had drift 3 mm and also Couldnt get the pin in farther down the line.

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

I have just seen on some forums people had gotten rulers that were off, 3mm is a lot.

[@dan__________________]

Really sounds like a manufacturing defect. Or perhaps the long ruler is slightly bent?

[@JohnMcGrathManInShed]

Could be the holes are off or it could be me, I have seen on some forums people had similar issues.

[@i679n5]

@@JohnMcGrathManInShed I have had a lot of MFTs off with the MK1 :(