Barrel Harmonics Testing - Part 2

[@ddexd]

Thanks to all for the kind words. But the one we need to thank is Johnny for his hard work doing all that testing. He puts more time in on the testing than I have making a couple of lumps. I'm happy to say the family of lumps will now be growing to a family of 5. Lump #1: The original at 25 oz, we've already seen how this one performs. Lump #2: 18.3 oz Lump #3: 12.2 oz Lump #4: 9.6 oz Lump #5: 6.3 oz Last but not least I also made a thread adapter so the Lumps threaded at 5/8"-24 will be able to be screwed onto barrels with 1/2"-28 threads. Hint hint, Johnny can expand the testing to other rifles. I also tried my hand at Parkerizing the lumps. Three out of the 4 came out nice and black, but one of them came out looking dark grey. The grey one was a remnant from the original Lump. Some kind of mystery metal. Can't wait to see how this turns out.

[@JohnnysReloadingBench]

Great stuff, brother! I think they will help this investigation a lot. I can't wait to see what they'll do to group size. Thanks again.

[@nc_classics_9610]

Thank you for your contribution sir. You are doing a service to the reloading community.

[@GordonsReloading]

Hi Johnny, is it ok that i help you a bit? You doin' a great job testing all this stuff! what i am looking for, is the geometric pattern of the harmonics. They getting from an big ellipse to a smaller one, possibly rotated 45° or 90° and then into a circle and to a point. Encircle the base group and find a ellipse or circle that encloses the group. please see here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oKKoY2iDmNeDmacm15s if you have a ellipse, you can go up or downwards with the powder load in max. 0.3 grain steps. if you find a circle after a ellipse go upwards and you will find the sweet point. please look here where i explain this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jnysm6qna5ejhacm27s Same with a harmonics dampener. A dampener is the combination of a weight at the muzzle and a reflection ring near 1/8 from the muzzle on the barrel, like you see on the SIG 550: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jnysm6qna5ejhacm15s Damping only with a muzzle weight is'nt the best way, because the flip from the harmonics is located near 1/8 to 1/4 from the muzzle backwards. The reflection ring and muzzle weight needs only near 125 g (4.5 oz) and is styled as a conical disk with a groove on the outer side and can be clamped to the barrel (like the LimbSaver). just move the reflection ring a few millimeters to front or back with a light muzzle brake and you tune the harmonics to your given ammo. the reloading is perhaps the same way backwards, but without any dampeners. 0.31 MOA with 8x57IS is possible: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oKKoY2iDmNeDmacm24s best regards, Gordon :-)

[@horstkreisler9634]

absolutely amazing!! thank you Gordon and thank you Johnny!!

[@tier1armorychannel53]

Thanks Dave for helping all of us, as Johnny finds answers we all learn.

[@davidunderwood3605]

The rubber barrel harmonic dampened is video of it's own. That device has to be moved up and down on the barrel to find it's sweet spot. Next it'll change when using a different loading. I have a small cheat sheet with sweet spots and loads.

[@adeniranm7647]

Johnny's reloading bench: "at this point, this is going to be 3 or 4 videos, there's no way to avoid it." Me: 😀

[@JohnnysReloadingBench]

I want to get back to reloading! Gun channels should be doing this sort of crap! :)

[@ewetho]

Johnny's Reloading Bench ..... Ahhh but, No! This is a reloaders bottomless pit. This is what we are trying to do in the first place...either make a magic load or just make cheaper stuff as good as good factory. But, when shooting for the one holer you have to account for everything yourself.... And down the rabbit hole you went. I do not think you will find satifactory full answers due to sample size and variables beyond your control...Maybe a better video set would simply be what seems to work bet with each rifle. So 1 for T/C 6.5, 1for the Grendel, 1 for each AR-10 platform...etc... Just a methodical test of each platform with say two groups know to shoot well in each and let people infer result from there.

[@tier1armorychannel53]

Go where the path takes you Johnny, don't be swayed by the journey. knowledge must be both looked for and found to be of benefit to the seeker.

[@geraldbondoc5974]

Thx, Dave! Also thx to all others who have contributed to JRB's channel. So proud to belong to this community!!! 👏👏👍👍

[@jdh9_]

Thank you Dave! You make the bestest Lump’s I have ever seen.

[@bobcdtffu]

Oh man, we are going to have to sit through a few more of these very informative videos. Such a shame.

[@jakebirkmaier5703]

You should take the worst muzzle device and try to work up a load for it. I think that your loads are tailored to the barrel harmonics of the gun and each muzzle device changes it, not that every muzzle device makes it better or worse, but just changes it so that load works worse or better depending on specific loads. In short, I don’t think the barrel harmonics are improved, I think they are changed in and out of tune with the loads.

[@craigmyers5569]

Jake Birkmaier Agreed and about to be my same comment before reading yours.

[@ewetho]

This is a very valid point. I was trying to opine this from the other side last video when he referred optimal barrel time. As the barrel time takes barrel length into account but each device alters the length harmonically but not bore length so many variables.

[@kirkboswell2575]

As a harmonic damper, I would expect the LS to have its greatest effect somewhere near the center of the barrel (or as close to the center of the unsupported barrel as possible). For those devices that got worse when the LS was added - that makes me think that the device is having some harmonic damping itself that the LS is interfering with. Keep up the good work. 👍

[@robotbuster1487]

The Limbsaver looks like a bushing that come in a Monroe McPherson Strut bushing kit

[@daviddale3624]

Look forward to lump madness. See if the Harrells people will make you the same device with compatible threads vs the ports. This will allow you to "tune" the mass distance fm the muzzle with any device you attach. Love this series!

[@12gethirednow]

I did try the limp saver last week and it does changes the point of impact and group size, I tried it every half inch. I used one of my bad loads and I noticed 30%-40% improvement.

[@Jiminico]

bos k That’s what I was guessing about the limbsaver at first... is that it may help to improve the worst loads and groups more if there was anything to it at all. And probably wouldn’t improve the best, but make it worse.

[@jdh9_]

I really hope to see @TiborasaurusRex weigh in on these barrel harmonics tests. Maybe he would have explanations or theories and suggestions for testing.

[@nc_classics_9610]

jdh His video would probably be a full hour, he is a smart but long winded teacher.

[@Quality_Guru]

First time on your channel. After seeing your content, I became an instant subscriber. Nicely done.

[@StonyRC]

I reckon adding a muzzle brake AND a limbsaver will change the harmonics further. You'd need to experiment more with the correct position for the limbsaver, moving it back a quarter inch or so at a time to find its NEW sweet spot, accounting for the added mass of the brake. THEN you might see improvement ... or perhaps I'm just thinking-dumb out loud. That's the beauty of shooting, it's always more complex than we can possibly comprehend. Keeps it interesting! Wonderful video series (and the comments from viewers are excellent), thank you so much for giving such a great deal of your time and experience.

[@johnshilling2221]

Thank you Dave! You definitely deserve it. If though, and it seems obvious, you enjoy working with metals, I know that the best part he's actually creating something that people like. I've been in the construction trade and working in metals most of my life. I enjoy making things so much, that I was nicknamed Inspector Gadget. Making things is reward enough, but there's no substitute for the look on people's faces!

[@HoneyStoneFarm]

Thanks Dave!!!

[@PHILSHOE81]

I agree more testing on the limb saver. I put it on my BAR mk.3 30-06 and it really made a difference. Groups from 2inches down to 1/2 inch with factory ammunition. Your testing reminds me of how me and my dad tested out the browning BOSS back in the 90's when I got my first deer rifle. Beautiful 280 rem. A-bolt 2 medallion with a B.O.S.S.

[@TheCFN007]

Thanks Sir Dave & Sir Johnny for making all this happen . Oh and all the great people that sent in there Muzzle devices for these Video's.

[@Tubajock2]

This looks like a VERY good series to colab with Smarter Every day as he has High speed and a LOVE for firearms and scientific testing.

[@usa5865]

I see a lot of great 4shot groups then a flyer or two separate "groups" in each 5 shot group on all of your videos. The same thing was happening to me and making me question the load then I started inside neck reaming. It's the most significant change I've made in making things consistent. Now I find my best load and do development on it by changing seating depth till it's the best it can be. I'd hate to see bad cases skewing all your hard work. Thanks for your channel, it's great info

[@JohnnysReloadingBench]

But I've shot a million good groups, including the first target I showed back in video 1, with the suppressor and had no fliers. With IMR 4451 in particular it was good groups all the way up and down the charge weight range, which is exactly why I chose this combo. I'm not questioning the ammo at all, but I know a lot of people here in the comments are. Fliers have been zero problem until we took off the suppressor. If I was shooting 10 shot groups I think they would look a lot less like fliers and a lot more like just bad groups. I'll be doing that sort of verification in some future videos of this series. Thanks for watching!

[@nc_classics_9610]

You can see the plants 10-15 feet away blowing around from the air movement. A few days ago I was enjoying the breeze from a fellow shooters Brake at Frontline Defense in NC. The fellow let me shoot his rifle and I was impressed that there was little recoil. I should have asked what brake he had, but it’s safe to say I will get a VG6 Gamma.

[@paulharveu526]

Looking forward to the round of testing with the Grendel.

[@aktrapper6126]

I've been told and it makes a lot of sense to me, that the trick is to get the harmonic "tuned" so that your barrel is at the top or bottom of the vibration just as the bullet leaves the barrel. If that is accomplished you will get the tightest groups your gun is capable of. There are many factor effecting this timing, Barrel weight, bullet weight, bullet speed, pressure, and of course any weight your adding to the barrel. Change any of these things and your harmonic "barrel vibrations" will be effected and so will the timing of when / where that barrel vibration is as your bullet leaves the barrel. Even small changes in any of these will effect your group size in a big way. What do you think?

[@garysnyder527]

You should consider writing a book on all your testing. Probably be a best seller.

[@billbrown8291]

Great work. I love your passion for the sport. I shoot 500yrds out to 700yrds with my savage mk2. Very customized. I use the limb saver for different 22lr ammo. I found out that by moving the limb saver front to back to find that sweet spot for the velocity of the ammo I use. In getting .265 moa groups at 100 and 5.8" moa at 600yrds. Simply buy moving the limb saver. Also lapping the barrel will dramatically help with harmonic balancing. Ill keep up with you on your channel. Thanks for your hard work. WA Brown from Missouri

[@BoltActionReloading]

Super interesting and cant wait till the next already. Thanks to Dave like all the others!

[@JohnnysReloadingBench]

I was going to email you the other day and give you a heads up on the Harrell's. The results so far are so crazy though...I still can't be sure what's good and what's bad. They sure are interesting!

[@BoltActionReloading]

Johnny's Reloading Bench interesting for sure. If I got one I an not sure where I would start. Infinite adjustability is a blessing and a curse.

[@JohnnysReloadingBench]

No doubt. That is something I will definitely be testing thoroughly. I'll probably tune it for this IMR 4451 load, then shoot groups across the whole charge weight range, then compare that target to my suppressed tests from the past. I'm hoping there will be a sweet spot where you can just leave it, then work up loads like normal. It's a huge variable to introduce into load workups. Also, the comments section of reloading videos where you've got it on a gun but don't tune with it will probably be unbearable.

[@Falkon620]

Johnny's Reloading Bench I think the value of the Harrell's is that you can adjust your gun harmonics to match a load you've already worked up. I believe that you could probably pick any position on the Harrell's and work up a good load for it. This is, I believe, the missing link in the data you've gotten so far is a wrong hypothesis that the suppressor actually improves the groups of the gun. I think it comes down to the fact that it dampens vibration a bit, widening the neutral nodes and making them easier to hit. I believe you could work up a load with any of these devices to get a 0.6"ish group with that rifle, but some will require you to test with smaller powder increments and then play with bullet seating depth. I believe you just have smaller nodes and have been missing then with many of the devices. Each device is going to impact harmonics of the rifle differently and you are finding all of the devices that bring the rifle to a similar node.

[@jonlockhart8436]

Interesting stuff Johnny. Loving this series and its crazy to think different devices have an effect, but I mean everything has a resonate frequency, and some of these devices may be damping or increasing that effect. Being an engineer this kind of scientific testing is great to me. Keep it up and I am super looking forward to seeing the flat based bullets. Also, can you try some home cast 6.5 bullets? You can get some great bullets that match your gun through casting and I know you have casted before.

[@nitrocamcam747]

Thanks Johnny, I love these series. This is exactly what I've wanted to try myself but couldn't afford to invest in all the different devises. Please keep them coming. And a big thanks to you too Dave for providing "the Lump". Looking forward to more.

[@forgiven21BM]

Thank you Dave!

[@tw9676]

Thank you, thank you, for your playlist organization.

[@THutch556]

Great stuff JRB, I really like the VG6 brakes. I run the VG6 Epsilon on my .223 WOA and it tightened up groups and does a great job. The Epsilon is the same as the Gamma but with added small prongs in the front for some flash suppression. I may pick up the Gamma for my T/C. I think it comes down to each particular muzzle device diverts gasses different and that plays a part in the groups. Now the question is how does one know which brake to buy with out having to buy a bunch for testing? Or does one Muzzle brake company like the VG6 gamma have it figured out like your silencerco omega seems to have it figured out and do a good job and tighten up groups on many different guns? Or does just the T/C like the VG6? Would be nice to see if that VG6 also improves your 6.5 AR10. Anyways great stuff.

[@AP-gy9eg]

You do realize you will get completely different results based on WHERE you put the limbsaver device on your barrel? (i.e. how far from the muzzle). Maybe a video in itself ? Thanks for the new series. Keep them coming!

[@FullSendPrecision]

Yes, it was covered in the first video.

[@JohnnysReloadingBench]

...and at 17:05 of THIS video

[@AP-gy9eg]

Aaron Anderson, "mentionned" yes, "covered" no. Changing anything that touches that barrel changes its harmonics. The LS tuning process needs to be redone if a different muzzle break is changed.

[@FullSendPrecision]

Cool. Why dont you make a video series to test it out?

[@allaboutpcpairguns7069]

Alex P you are right they need to move it around with every muzzle device

[@jackjohn6063]

The limb saver needs to be adjusted in small increments until you see sub half inch groups. It tunes barrel and can be tuned to any ammo your shooting. It does the hand loading for you.

[@ExpatriotSilencers]

It would seem you are testing two different effects. Weight as it effects barrel harmonics and gas flow as it effects bullet yaw. Sound suppressors are very efficient at stripping the high velocity propellant gas flow away from the bullet, which reduces yaw and increases accuracy. Weight and its location on the barrel will certainly affect the vibrational harmonics of the barrel. This is demonstrated by the differences in the lump depending on which way it is mounted. One thing you may want to try is to compare a prong type flash suppressor like the Silencer Co, which should ring like a tuning fork vs the same brake with each of the prongs machined or ground to a slightly different length. The weight change will be insignificant but the device will be harmonically deadened and no longer ring or vibrate.

[@Whtnite95]

Another awesome video as usual Johnny. Have you tried checking the bullet run out on your loads? I was getting one or two flyers on my precision loads and found that I was getting about 2 to 3 thousands of run out on my loaded 5 round groups and the others in the groups where less then 1 thousands. Once I used the Hornady Concentricity Tool to get around one half thousands run out on my loaded rounds my groups tightened right up with no flyers. Just a thought that might help out with your flyer situation. Keep up the awesome videos and tight groups.

[@benjaminbrown1179]

Watching the video of the gamma you can see the difference in muzzle jump/rise compared to the other devices. I have a buddy who makes his own brakes and they incorporate vents on the top to mitigate muzzle rise. Installed on my wife's 270 it took her 1-1/2" gun to a 1/2" tack driver.

[@alexbonetti584]

tks for this series... these pieces of information are gold to us !!!

[@macrocha5251]

Johnny you are awesome! I love the amount of laugh i have watching your videos and i learn something always. Regards add another device to the already good device is add a second nascar driver to a car with an already great driver, it only will create discordance and things will go backwards. Get the dialling device (sorry forgot the name) and do shoot it with different adjustments, a bit more than what you already shot, do the same with the climb saver one, put it in various different position in the barrel i believe we all will be surprised with the results. i fully support you on the point of disregard the "pull" shots but even though we must add to the equation that "a" round will have a very slight difference in one of the many variables (bullet seating, powder charge, neck tension, etc) and one of these variables definitely will make things happen. Again, thank you VERY MUCH for your services, time and hard work, i appreciate it, i honestly would love to be able to support you and your channel but my actual situation does not allowed me to so. God bless my friend!

[@lucasrose8272]

Thanks Dave for making the lumps. High speed video will make this make way more sense. The smarter everyday guy or those high speed guys could help with this. Material stress and different materials mount at the end of the barrel will change the harmonic tuning. Vibration is a weird thing man. It’s not about the weight it’s about the vibration. The compensation between many of these devices will be similar. On the compensation what make the difference is felt recoil. Gas deflection is only part of it JP enterprises found this out they made a break that in some respects was a piece of pipe mounted perpendicular to the bore access. It was ugly as sin but the truth was it worked so well that the competition officials literally made a rule to outlaw its use as they felt it gave an unfair advantage.

[@yootoober49]

This is awesome stuff, man. Thanks for doing it. I love the repeat on another day to confirm. I love this kind of testing. Good work

[@WesternWilcats]

I probably should have watched both of these before writing my first comment (on the part 1 video). In reference to that, I think there are two different things that you would be able to isolate, one being the gasses as you demonstrated in the slow motion video, the other being increasing or decreasing barrel mass ( which increases/decreases rigidity/harmonic characteristics). And thanks to Dave D and Johnny's Reloading Bench for putting in the effort for us to (mostly over analyze) stare bewildered as the results.

[@roberteleejames9977]

Man, you're dragging me down the rabbit hole with you Mad Hatter. I was happier than a PIS when you had that rig shooting .5 moa

[@kaymio6547]

My understanding of one of your earlier referenced videos on the limbsaver was that the it is useful to tighten groups when you only have manufactured ammunition or otherwise bad groups. As far as I understand the limbsaver has to be moved inch by inch to find the right placement along the barrel for each load and/or muzzle device. It would be interesting to see whether you can adjust the limbsaver for one of the "bad breaks". The Harell's device has to be adjusted as well, so why not the limbsaver. The influence on the barrel harmonics should be the same. This might also remediate the difference between the forward and the backward orientation of "the lump".

[@boydallen8059]

On the Sims unit, consider trying multiples. On the others, consider the importance of thread fit. Without something like a jam nut or split thread clamp that could degrade performance. When one has a brake custom fitted, the smith should cut the barrel thread for a very fine fit. Finally, when we adjust tuners, it is in very small increments of rotation. It seems that the changes that you were comparing were so large that success with any one would be unlikely. On the other hand, doing a complete workup with a single item might give some useful information about how to fine tune. What sort of bedding does your bolt rifle have? Generally, I try not to do any serious accuracy work unless I have bedded the rifle. On the rifles that you shot from a bipod, did you preload the bipod legs? Finally, I really enjoyed your presentations. I watched the whole series on harmonics.

[@Coyotethumper5]

For what I understand the limb saver is a tuner. Moving it up and down the barrel changes the harmonics of the the barrel so by moving it you tune the barrel to get better groups

[@pawswet9476]

Yes, and by putting it on an arbitrary starting position with another device, it is truly a roll of the dice what the combined weight of the limbsaver and the “paired” muzzle device will tune as a result. These combination tests will never produce results unless the tuning is done by stepping the limbsaver along in small increments until the peak performance is found. With all the devices examined to date, that’s too much testing and too many of JRB’s precision test rounds spent. Better to just pick one muzzle device to tune with the limbsaver by moving it in small steps from the staring position.

[@eliminster06]

Another great set of data, one thing that really caught my eye this time and I think would make an interesting test is using the Harrell's and doing a complete test where you start at 150 and go down by 10 or 5 all the way to 0 and see if there is a sine wave of the harmonics on accuracy with the rifle and then using the limb saver see if maybe that inverts it or partially inverts and cuts down on harmonics that way.

[@treberg45]

Great vid, a lot of stuff going on here, can't wait for an in depth review of the Harrell and limbsaver , the tuneability aspect is what I'm interested in. Hopefully you have the time to test the limbsaver at half inch increments. Thank you for your research

[@frijoli9579]

As an engineer, I am fascinated by this series.

[@MrTrekFanDan]

Johnny, 2 quick suggestions on the mysterious "fliers" in your shot groups. First, if you have single flier, shoot an extra round to verify. Secondly, I HIGHLY suggest you use a bullet concentricity gauge before any more testing! I made my own for dirt, mainly for my precision 6.5 CM hand loads . ..Out of curiosity, I tested several boxes of factory ammo in various calibers, and the results were horrifying. About 10% of the 6.5 CM were 0.001 to 0.003". The rest had up to 0.024" of runout! They looked like a bent arrow wobbling in flight. I straightened those to 0.003 and will be testing asap.

[@njgrplr2007]

The LS is mostly about modifying the frequency of the harmonic wave so you can time the bullet exiting the muzzle at a relatively calm point. If you are using a muzzle device that already has you exiting in an optimal place, the odds are that the addition of the LS is going to screw things up. I suspect that, if you play with the positioning of the LS, you will find that none of the muzzle device will shoot worse with it when it is positioned in the sweet spot. I hope you can get a Harrels with the right thread pattern for your AR-10.

[@N5KDA]

If you add the LS to a brake you MUST try the LS in different locations. Great info thanks !!!

[@44hawk28]

I know this is coming in late but I just run across your videos a few days ago. And I've watched your part one and part two. Just a couple of observations. You tend to throw either from the load, something in the rifle, or for some other unknown reason you tend to throw a lot of Flyers. Out of five shots you tend to throw at least one flyer, frequently two Flyers. It is entirely possible that this Barrel doesn't like being free-floated. Free floating is not an end-all be-all to getting ultimate accuracy. Most rifles that shoot really well for a lot of years always had about 2 to 3 lb of pressure out at the end of the stock. It dampened harmonics and there were almost always loads that Tech drivers with that structure. When the free-floating barrel craze started it was this Panacea That was supposed to solve all of this crap and it didn't do that. Because some barrels just don't shoot well if they aren't dampened some way shape or form. My most accurate rifle shot a 049-in group. That's 49,000 of an inch on a number of occasions, it was a Ruger Model 77 and 7 mm mag that was bone stock. With the Redfield Widefield 3 to 9x scope. And a very thin Barrel. And that was all with 140 grain Spire Point either Sierra or Hornady. Would you have two completely different shapes to it which was surprising. Always would fire around and I pull the bolt back and I leave it set open for about 10 to 12 seconds before I'd fire the next round. Sometimes a little longer sometimes a little less. But all of my groups I fired were 20 round groups and I never got a flyer out of that rifle. I was a lot younger then, I believe that was 1979.

[@TractorWrangler01]

You need to use the Harrels and move it 5 at a time and watch your progress and write it down. it should get to a tight group then start getting larger again. Use that data go back to your best group number and move 2 up then 4 down and see which direction gets you closer to being right on the best barrel harmonic. Then use adjustments of 1 to find your best results.

[@adamlong54]

The limb saver works you just have to move it a 1/4 inch at a time to 1/8 inch to find the sweet spot on the crossing harmonic spot.

[@1LRLRG]

I've also heard that by sliding the LS up or down the barrel will change the harmonics as well. There you go another way to extend this series of videos, very interesting results thanks

[@finalaccuracy7695]

I'm not a ballistician, nor do I claim to be one. However, I've been reading papers that talk about how different muzzle brakes affect the stability of the bullet as it leaves the muzzle. Some input uneven gas around the bullet as it leaves and can make the bullet more unstable than it normally would be. It then would take more time, time equaling distance, for the nose of the bullet to stabilize. Just my 2 cents.

[@Prepare2Survive]

That limbsaver reminds me of a strut bump stop bushing for a car suspension.

[@cornydad]

Do a video moving the Limb Saver down the barrel and see what groups look like.

[@dandexinventor]

binge watching your vids, good info!

[@ProShooterAbsolute10]

The point of the Limbsaver is to move it back in increments of 1/4 - 1/2 of a inch on every 3-4 shots and find the right amplitude.

[@jonjames4281]

Flat Base vs Boat Tail.... one thing I've noticed is when shooting with my can, flat based bullets aren't as loud as boat tails. guess that explains why.

[@scottarthurjr.1818]

As for a flat base bullet, the Sierra (#1720) 120 gr. Pro-Hunter might be a good choice. It is a great hunting bullet out of 6.5 Grendel, if works for you.

[@savagereloader6699]

Johnny, I'm wondering if there is a correlation between the muzzle device and the charge weight of the load? Like could the muzzle devices that provide bad groups be improved to provide good groups by tweaking the charge weight? Much like tweaking the charge weight kind of tunes the load to the barrel's harmonics. What do you think?

[@robmueller5909]

Very interesting set of tests. I have two somewhat off topic questions: Where do you get the targets you're using and what software do you use to measure your groups?

[@allaboutpcpairguns7069]

Okay it's time to start moving that limbsaver around on the barrel

[@garrytalley8009]

An EC-Tuner brake can fit your AR. It looks better than a Harrel as well. Check it out they make one that will fit your barrel.

[@o5245607]

I have a 6.5 Creedmore and have especially enjoyed those videos and have gotten good accuracy with off the shelf 120 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips. I did notice that the accuracy did improve substantially at 200 yds. over the 100 yd. groups with BT's boat-tail bullets giving credence to the idea that accuracy improves with distance for boat-tail bullets. Also, anyone with .243 rifles that won't stabilize 100 gr. bullets I would like to hear from you. I believed the yarn that was spun years ago about how Winchester beat out Remington by utilizing a 1x10" twist that would stabilize the 100 gr. bullets whereas Remington's 1x12" .244 wouldn't. The .244 is now known as the 6mm Remington and is designed on the .257 Roberts case the .243 Winchester uses the .308 case so they aren't related as in previous times reported by self-proclaimed gun gurus writing for magazines. It appears that I have an excellent varmint rifle in the 80 gr. or less range rather than a dual-purpose rifle as I once believed.

[@5napperlicious]

This is turning out to be quite an interesting series. Regarding BT vs FB, I can't help but think about the 223 videos and how mediocre that 55g Lapua shot. Maybe it's because it isn't a HP, but it didn't shoot any better than the Hornady 62g BTHP. Would love to see some more on this topic.

[@yankfromthehills]

Johnny you need to open you patreon back up brother your content is worth my few $ a month you have been putting out videos regularly enough for me I'm sure other folks agree

[@JohnnysReloadingBench]

lol just wait until I decide to go fishing one weekend and have a two or three week gap between videos! The pitchforks will come out! I will probably open it back up before too long, with plenty of warning to people that there might be periods with few videos. Thanks, brother.

[@BoltActionReloading]

AMEN!

[@itinerantrebel1799]

Dave, Just a wild guess based on the University of Kansas seal, but did you learn about harmonics, oscillation and damping in Learned Hall?

[@curtiswest4272]

Correction on my previous statement....limbsaver can be adjusted i. 1/2" increments....according to directions.

[@joelclark2130]

Don't know if this is helpful or just a wild goose chase but I had Barrel weights for my shotgun that are external to make all the barrels weigh the same. I was wondering if some external weight moved around on the barrel with another device might make a difference also.

[@tyhunter2000]

The limbsaver does the same thing as the harrell's. There would be more reason to thoroughly test each of these independent of each other instead in conjunction. Thanks for your videos

[@savagereloader6699]

Thanks for doing all the work for these great videos Johnny! I do think flat base bullets generally do have some added accuracy at shorter ranges but if you can shoot 1/2 moa with boat tails why change?

[@USAACbrat]

I would get a round group from the bare bbl.. then add ons. rectangular groups is a bedding problem.

[@noellasure4063]

Ambient temperature of steel... temperature of steel as it changes due to course of fire... barrel length... weight at the end. Barrel harmonics are in fact an ever changing variable.

[@jimbo2.094]

Great videos. What software are you using to measure groups?

[@rubnerb]

I'd be interested in seeing velocity with each device including the suppressor. I wonder if there's a slight pressure difference with each device.

[@jimtanner8516]

I will say it again! The turbulence created by different devices does make a difference on how the bullet exit the muzzle. I currently using a procomp on my 6.5 Grendel Neck turn brass Br-4 primers Benchmark powder 123gr Hornady eld match

[@JohnnysReloadingBench]

I'm certainly not arguing against that. I feel like the last video nearly proved it. What's your recommendation? How do I prove it with a practical demonstration other than what I'm doing already in these videos? How do you predict what muzzle device will be good for your gun and which ones will be bad?

[@shauntucker5145]

if I understand things properly the limbsaver like the harrells break is meant to keep moving it slowly to get better groups

[@number40Fan]

Didn't this gun come with a plastic piece that you can place between the barrel and stock to keep the stock from flexing while the gun is in the safe? If so, would you mind a bare barrel group with it still in place? See if any stock to barrel pressure would help grouping!

[@hmmm2183]

Would be interesting to see if group improvement from the silencerco flash hider could also be had with other flash hiders... maybe all you really need is a $10.00 A2 Flash hider to improve grouping ...

[@ewetho]

Hmmm ....... I think the advantage of the SilencerCo is the control of gasses upon leaving the muzzle giving better more controlled transition and also a harmonic disruption from the 3 prongs each casing partial wave disruption at mutiple lengths. Try that bad boy on the .308 AR barrel. This uneven gas flow may be the issue with some of the brakes on BT bullets and may be downfall of the A2 flash hider.

[@hmmm2183]

Thomas Ewers I just find it interesting that a flash hider of any type is out preforming all of the breaks ... Given breaks are supposed to improve performance by reducing muzzle rise , the Flash hider performance combined with its design intent make it head & shoulders over the noisey breaks

[@sicesp]

I'm thinking that when you get those 0.6" groups you have essentially optimized the harmonics situation for the barrel. Then any mass added on to that may be throwing it off, i.e. limb saver. Maybe once you hit 0.6" you have to work on a different variable to improve it. Just a thought.

[@ruthless4645]

Leave the other crap off your barrel and just work with the Limbsaver, I've ALWAYS found a sweet spot with them but it takes time and small movements. The more crap you hang off the end of your barrel the harder it's going to be to find that sweet spot!.

[@racrx728]

How about shooting groups with the limbsaver and moving it 1/2" down the barrel with each group? That's how it's supposed to work, by moving it you tune the barrel to the load. Same thing with the Harrell's brake, test that in increments of 10.

[@geoffwaldron5929]

Thank you Dave

[@davidstuck2866]

Yep, I have always found flat base bullets are easier to tune than boat tails. but I only have 100 yards to work with.

[@1976kingdom]

Would you please put the limbsaver on the other way? Maybe it’s just my ocd kicking in but I always run them the other way on my archery equipment.

[@JohnnysReloadingBench]

I've got it on there the way they have it on the website! You're the weirdo, not me! :) limbsaver.com/products/sharpshooter-x-ring-barrel-dampener?variant=305984110611

[@stephenfowler4115]

So now you need to shoot the limbsaver with the Harrels and move it an inch at a time back towards the breech.

[@mtnshooter2487]

As long as were experimenting , Can you take off the bi pod and install a 2" wide x 4 " long 1/4" plate to your hand guard and try a little bench resting to the Aero Procession M-5? . Works good as a triditional bench rest set up . you wont have to worrie about pre loading the bi pod.

[@raylamm4607]

Well, Id have to think that if the dampner can screw up some good groups you have to think outside the box and maybe you are in the wrong spot on the barrel.(I bought a 308 with it almost 8.5 inches back on a bolt gun and it shot .5moa all day where without it closer to .9 . thanks for your endurance bro thx Ray

[@ks-yp7ih]

Johnny's Reloading Bench did you pop a primer at 12:40?

[@JohnnysReloadingBench]

No, it's not a popped primer. I saw that while I was editing and immediate grabbed my ammo box to check. All 220 pieces of this batch we've fired still have primers intact. I think it was just a little leaf or something falling but it sure did look like a primer flying out!

[@leeadams5941]

Well Im watching a few years late, but my take on it is weight is exacting, and maybe length...the Harrells works and is similar to the Boss system Browning came out with

[@USAACbrat]

a lot of 4 shot good groups spoiled by a flyer. try upward pressure at the fore end for more round groups.

[@riflemanjim]

I think the deal with the flat base bullets is they obdurate to fit the bore tighter.

[@jordanhays732]

My 556 20 inch upper is shooting 5 inch groups with 556 55 gr. Maybe I ought to do some harmonics testing before I send the barrel back to faxon.

[@JohnnysReloadingBench]

A LimbSaver is $10...why not give it a shot!? 5" is pretty gnarly, though. You shooting decent bullets?

[@jordanhays732]

Johnny's Reloading Bench the five inch group is with 55gr federal factory ammo. I’ve gotten 2 1/2 inch groups out of the 77gr imi out of my 20 inch gunner profile faxon barrel. I can’t reload for 223 yet all I’m set up for is 9mm so far. But I should at least be able to get below 2inch. Any suggestions?

[@nc_classics_9610]

jordan hays Try some factory Hornady Vmax, it it doesn’t shoot that send it back. There isn’t a loose Nut behind the stock right?

[@oliverkrell9290]

Consentrisity of threading to hole in the end of muzzle device?

[@geneitzkowitz4710]

I found the sweet spot in my 700 2 1/2 inches from the muzzle with the Limb saver.

[@concernedcitizen5716]

Thanks Dave!

[@lohikarhu734]

Have you guys seen any scientific analysis of the actual movement of the muzzle, over time, relative to the bullet exiting the muzzle...my expertise is in high-speed, high-accuracy measurements, and I have not seen anything that looks like what I would be doing to get a real-time analysis of barrel behavior...any pointers?