Spinoza, religio, and the re-conceiving of religion, God and Nature w/ Clare Carlisle

Clare has recently written what I consider the best book on Spinoza entitled Spinoza's Religion. It was my great pleasure to get to talk deeply with Clare about Spinoza, devotion, religion, faith, God etc. Her work demonstrates the central relevance of Spinoza to those seeking to understand religion and spirituality within a scientific worldview and the religion that is not a religion.

[@climbingmt.sophia]

That answer to the wavering of faith, to not shut away but rather to have courage to follow it all the way, that is absolutely beautiful! The Courage to Be can be made a spiritual practice

[@johnvervaeke]

Yes!

[@LaymansPursuit]

How beautiful it is to see two beings look so deeply into one another in such a profound way, and finding warmth therein. My heart is filled. You continue to be a shining example of the way towards spiritual wholeness. Truly a blessing to me. And your partner here helped foreground this aspect of you which is often mixed into your polymathematic gestalt. Thank you for being you, John.

[@EnemyOfEldar]

I cannot wait to sit down and digest this. If I could have wished to hear a a conversation of great philosophers, it would be these two. Thank you Claire , thank you John.

[@sumayyabhorat790]

Every time i listen to you John, i see your conflict sooo clearly... between cognition (brain) and spirituality (soul)... your conclusions on the limitations of computation and AI clearly recognize this dichotomy... spirituality, feelings, affect, emotions, salience comes from the soul... we exist and are, because we have a soul, our spiritual dimension; our bodies including our brain for computation... we need all aspects of ourselves to be♥️

[@janurbanek1127]

Love the new glasses John 😂 i know, i sound like a groupie or whatever 😂 but i was just thinking the whole conversation “what is different here” and then it hit me.

[@crakhaed]

Paradigm shift

[@georgefrancismusic]

This is a great interview. Thank you. I watched the video, then read Clare's book, then just watched this for a second time. Plus I am getting unlimited participatory downloads from life itself.. Now I will read the Ethics! (Aloud of course).

[@meinking22]

Such a fantastic conversation. I'll take a Spinoza deep dive any day. Thank you for sharing.

[@williamjmccartan8879]

Thank you both Clare and John for a great exploration of Clare's book and your thoughts on the same material John, take care both of you.

[@ciaranoregan3710]

Thank you so much to you both. This was a beautiful conversation that arrived in my life in a ridiculously synchronous moment. I'll be buying Clare's books this week on Spinoza and Kierkegaard.

[@mattgumbley1317]

Thank you. I will have to try Clare’s book, I have tried Spinoza a few times and found it too difficult. Inspired to try again.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Oh, very excited to listen to this!

[@elektrotehnik94]

Elon Musk said he finds Spinoza his "religious direction/ worldview". We may like or not like Elon, but he's got the world's attention, in many ways. ^^ The cult of "materialism/ capitalism" (of which Elon is "a leader", in many ways) is so subscribed to, by soooo many Influential people nowadays. --> Spinoza may deserve some more looking into. The synchronicity seems strong enough (to me) to warrant spending time trying to indwell Spinoza's worldview.

[@zvihassan6094]

Thank you for such a great talk! I study Spinoza for several years and that is point I think that is missing from the academic discussions

[@alexandrazachary.musician]

That was lovely! Thank you 🙏🏽❤️ My copy of Clare’s book is still in transit and now I’m twice as eager to read it. And I have to say it… it’s so nice to hear female (and non-American) voices in this space. I know that it really shouldn’t matter, but it is refreshing somehow. And this was so opportune with my recent question too. Lotsa love 💋💋💋💋

[@dalefavier2949]

:-) It does matter too, though.

[@alexandrazachary.musician]

@@dalefavier2949 in as much as we are all products of our context.

[@M_K171]

Actually I hear a lot of women who are deep in this research giving talks and having discussions all the time, which are mostly British women in my experience. It doesn’t matter if it’s a man or a woman, however. What does matter is that either can partake in the discipline. That’s the beauty of it. Lastly, Americans get a bad rap for some reason, but they’re not all that bad.

[@alexandrazachary.musician]

@@M_K171 absolutely! It’s just my experience of late on this corner of the internet. Not casting nasturtiums in general. 🌺🌺🌺

[@RobinTurner]

​@@M_K171Interesting that it seems to be such a British phenomenon. There's a book on my reading list whose title sums it up: "The Women Are Up to Something: How Elizabeth Anscombe, Philippa Foot, Mary Midgley, and Iris Murdoch Revolutionized Ethics" (by Benjamin Lipscomb).

[@jamespercy8506]

the elegant sense of obvious that emerges from the mindful pursuit and cultivation of 'good faith'

[@strategies4health]

Such synchronicity- just started reading Clare’s thought-provoking book “On Habit,” where she examines habit from a philosophical standpoint. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the transformation from living a more mundane life to one grounded in the sacred. So much to assimilate from this talk between two great minds - especially the notion of Being in God or a Participatory God and how imperative (Good) Habit and Practice is to living a liberated life at One with the nature of things. Thanks to both David and Claire for an enlightening dialog. Looking forward to reading Spinoza’s Religion There is so much cross-fertilization between all early religious systems, as with Christianity informed by Stoicism and Platonism. There is also the connection between Spinozism and Buddhism. In Buddhist philosophy Everything that exists depends on everything else: this is the heart of the Buddha’s core teaching of dependent arising. Everything in life is conditioned by other factors-they don’t just arise out of nowhere. A flower needs the conditions of sunlight, soil, and water to grow, just as a calm or agitated mind arises from a set of conditions. And the Spinoza argued that everything is a derivative of God, interconnected with all of existence. Although humans experience only thought and extension, what happens to one aspect of existence will affect others. If we put on the mind of Spinoza or Buddha or Jesus how can we not live in greater harmony with the world. It is our inherent obligation as aware sentiment beings to live sustainable lives. We could do well to incorporate the The Seventh Generation Principle into our lives. It is based on an ancient Iroquois philosophy that the decisions we make today should result in a sustainable world seven generations into the future

[@dalibofurnell]

I wish I could have been a part of this conversation! This was amazing, very peaceful. Thank you, I felt a type of grace come through. John, the way you describe feeling is the way I see feeling too. I find the word feeling to be deeper than emotion. Feeling is almost closer to sense and getting a sense amd becoming aware of the inner sense as well as what could be sensed through the "consensus" all senses grown beautifully helping us move , nature helps us with nurture , that is very important to learn in life and interacting with nature reveals beauty , nature never intends to harm us it just loves us back we can approach it freely that's incredible. I really like God , Nature, Religion I can resonate with that quite well and it's general. I can go quite a bit deeper which is interesting because I wasn't aware of that thread inside me. God is agape, love. Nature is almost like how he can guide us to love ourselves and life in relation to us and Religion helps with structure and grounding. The way I have experienced faith, is in different ways, different intensities of it. Faith is quite complex and dynamic it is essential though.

[@robertgray9599]

Clare saying The Ethics can be high art, science, and philosophy reminds me of the status of Plato's dialogues by his admirers. I guess the best things are true, good, and beautiful and the expression of all 3 at one point is a kind of highest example of human achievement and why lacking 1 or 2 of those is why there are lesser things in the world that at first glance seem better than they otherwise might be. Seeing two people share their love of Spinoza let me appreciate him and his work in new ways. Thanks!

[@draztiqmeshaz6226]

35 min in and loving this. Thank you both.

[@climbingmt.sophia]

Very excited for this!

[@mcnallyaar]

With a title like this, how could one not be excited?

[@jasonmitchell5219]

Wow, that was just... such a wonderful conversation. Thanks, to you both. Also, I think we all wonder whether we're reading our own desires into someone's else's work or whether we're drawing out what was already there but only implicitly. Questions that can only really be probed by "what do you think?"

[@lizellevanwyk5927]

Devotion NB. Explicitly discussed 25:55 . Implicitly in faithfulness, necessity, relevance realization, paying attention, etc. Religio. Faith as devotion.

[@rajeevjosephpalakkacherry2766]

Excellent conversation , Thank you Claire and John

[@maggen_me7790]

The drive to Devote yourself have to come from somewhere... Through love I devote and bind myself to artistic work :)

[@gianluigisegalerba4543]

Very interesting: thank you very much!

[@IanTennant]

I really like the idea of being 'consumed by the paradox'.

[@crakhaed]

This was an incredible conversation. Very moving at the part where you discussed how Spinoza inspired devotion in his friends and how love is the recognition that another thing/being/person is real. Beautiful man. It'd be fun to see John talk to Joe Rogan about some of these topics. Lol they would disagree on the word partner first thing. But maybe it's better this way. Rogan has talked to many philosophers and professors of consciousness. I feel like some of their ideas overlap in some ways.

[@walterschultz9583]

Hooked. Bought her book. Reading it the second time and s-l-o-w-l-y struggling my way through the Ethics. But it's not supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be a spiritual exercise that modifies cognition to enable clear perception of what is True.

[@johnvervaeke]

Exactly!!! 😃

[@karimchaya2432]

👏👏👏👏 After hearing this conversation i read clare's book and then tried to read the ethics but it was really difficult to me so now i am reading Michael Della Rocca on Spinoza. I see that there is something profound about Spinoza. Thanks!!!

[@karimchaya2432]

If you have any specific recommendation to understand Spinoza, I would really appreciate it

[@ThePathOfEudaimonia]

Hi, Karim! Have you studied Spinoza more since your comment last year? How did it go?

[@jgarciajr82]

Just bought it! ❤️🙏

[@johnbaker1712]

It is interesting that Einstein when asked about his belief in God stated that he believed in the God of Spinoza. Recently Elon Musk stated the same. For me it introduced and, at the same time, confirmed something of my own personal experience of spiritual truth that sometimes came to me intuitively and which sometimes was very difficult to hold on to and express in a way that others could understand. On meditating on the words "seek the Truth and the Truth will set you Free." I came to realize a much deeper meaning of that saying . It led me to think about Ultimate Truth and whether I was actually on that journey and asking, somewhat like Pilot's Question to Jesus, "What is Truth.?" Jesus had already answered this prior to His meeting with Pilot by His statement to His followers; " I am The Way, THE TRUTH, and the life." Pilot subsequently seemed to answer his own question by saying to The Jews, "behold The Man" and offered to the mob for Jesus to be set free according to a tradition of the Time. The mob shouted, "Crucify Him." For me Spinoza was a seeker of Truth and the value of his explorations, whilst not encumbered with positions of academic power and his living a simple life style, enhanced the uniqueness and depth of his writings. Also it encourages me , and I am sure many others to go on that journey. Praise God and Bless His Holy City Jerusalem.

[@leedufour]

Thanks Clare and John!

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks Lee

[@sarahhhh775]

Thankyou both. A delightful conversation and much food for thought! 🙏

[@jamesmilne1984]

Chiming loudly with my sense of Spinoza. I enjoy the thought of a man grinding lenses and reflecting on an objective truth. Is this not the most religious person?

[@climbingmt.sophia]

"Christianity has always been an eclectic and diverse cultural mix with diversity built into it. Which makes it really ironic that many institutions like the big churches try to exclude diverse, or as they would call heretical points of view. " Christianity by it's fundamental axioms cannot be a totalizing exclusive explanation of reality. It must always be a Way. Very much enjoying this already!

[@kwan7278]

Interesting how once we clear our lens of philosophical perception, the relevance and significance of different strands of philosophical thoughts shifts. Relevance realization at works?

[@kwan7278]

I wonder if this is akin to salient landscaping by an eternal gardener who view time merely as a construct, where One may change the saliency of past events to realize better futures, instantaneously.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

I would call this a "change of register" by self- or nonself-induced shifts of relevances; and it happens, in principal, all the time(s), day in, day out.

[@kwan7278]

@@gunterappoldt3037 Thanks for offering your perspectival lens for me to try on! Sounds like you are a fellow lens grinder, like Spinoza.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

@@kwan7278 May be, thanks!

[@ahmaditani8168]

FINALLY!

[@ndmath]

Great conversation!

[@mcnallyaar]

Wow! My religious life is similar to them!

[@gunterappoldt3037]

The work of Nishitani has a strong Zen -- some would even say "National-Zen" -- background (or "aji/flair"), which brings some parochial, zen-ish biases with it (as btw. is, in general, the case in many things "religious", regardless of each individual-personal-institutional affiliations, predilictions, etc). Therefore, it should also be (re)read critically, like: How much of Nietzsche´s implicit individual/personal/cultural background did Nishitani really understand -- or, maybe, misinterpret or overlook? Some structural/objective/... hermeneutics in this direction seem to be appropriate/desireable. This is also to say: An even more interdisciplinary (including philosophic/cultural anthropology, ethnology/sociology, etc.) and intercultural approach seems to be very important for the future agenda, in order to increase general relevances. Anyway, many thanks for sharing, with best regards.

[@denesetler]

This is not the first time I read about the ultranationalist affiliation of the Kyoto school, but cannot see how is that possible with a zen perspective... can you provide any material on that? About the factual cooperations, and the philosophical analysis how it could occure?

[@gunterappoldt3037]

@@denesetler In general, the study by Brian Victoria (Germ. title: "Zen, Nationalimus und Krieg...", Berlin: Theseus, 1999), gives, i.m.o., a well researched overview over "unholy alliances" between (National-)Zen(-Buddhism) and Japanese Nationalism-Militarism-Imperialism. There are other publications, but it would take some time to re-research the data in my (not always neatly systematized) "data-pool". Some points of relevance I can spontaneously think of, are: (1) The concept of "no-self" can easily be weaponized by totalitarian movements, regardless of their socio-political "colour". (Moreover, "anâtman/no-self/non-self" lends itself to so many different interpretations -- even to the one of the transhumanistic Robo-Buddha -- that I would not call it scientific in the strict sense, but rather a "religio-ideological paradigm".) (2) Prominent representatives, like the "grounding-father" of the Kyoto-School, Nishida Kitarô, -- or also D.T. Suzuki, who was indirectly also part of the "inner circle", -- seemingly created a strange, contradictory mixture of propositions, put inside the "big basket" of their Zen-presentations: on the one hand, namely D.T. Suzuki declared Zen a transcendental, universal mysticism, on the other hand, held that Zen is more or less identical with the "spirit (or even ) of (Being-)Japan(ese)", which was so distant from "Western rationalism" (What a stereotype! What a crude dichotomic schema for comparison!) that Western people could never hope to understand them/it. Which makes "being Japanese", as Peter Dale (?) put it, rather ironically, "uniquely unique" (as this phrase also appears in the title of his related study on the so called "Nihonjinron/Talks on Being Japanese"). (3) Not only Zen posits a "categorical ethics", which however often, in real life, pales down to relationalism/relativism (implying the unavoidability of change, modificatons, etc.), due to the fact that -- as Confucian critics in olden time also already had argued -- morals-ethics don´t rather come down from "heaven", but rather are mainly a matter and product of "intersubjective negotiations/bargaining" (Ger.: intersubjektiven, gesellschaftlichen Aushandelns). By the way, this seems to be the crux of most "high religions", which already prompted people like the "grounding-father of sociology", Emile Durkheim, to postulate: "One should explain social phenomena sociologically!" (And not to take refuge, so to speak, to the "charisma" and/or "will of heaven", and the like metaphysical "projections", as old master Ludwig Feuerbach might have said.) Again, D.T. Suzuki felt the contradictions (as he was well educated, a "well informed citizen" in the sense of Alfred Schütz), although he tried to downplay them, by stating (but only one times in his books, as far´s I know, which is also telling), for example (parapharased): "Zen can, alas, indeed at times be amoral!" (which reminds me of the general "framing-narrative" of the Baghavad-Gita, which somehow goes like this: "Divine duty is always superior to human morals-ethics!") -- on which I would expand as follows: Exegesis of morals-ethics in general and of moral matters (by special casuistic) basically also means to deal with change. Exegesis of given sets of morals/ethics is propelled by the "inner dialectics" of, among other things, (a) mutually/in themselves contradictory imperatives, and (b) the dispositional tension between "engagement" and "distance". By the way, these tension inside the "attentiona á la vie" also poses a general methodological problem in sciences, which, for example, informed the titel of one of the books ("Between Engagement and Distance..."[?]) of the sociologist Norbert Elias, whose specialty was qualitative research in the fields of sociology of knowledge, and sociology of history. (c) All "eternality clauses" (in law) are obvisiously rather "Platonic fictions" (although they may have some value as "regulating ideas"), since, as the saying goes: "Change is the only constancy!" These are all interesting questions/topics. And let´s not forget that the same "unholy alliances" were forged also, all to often, by other "religions" (which per se seems a problematic term: "religion", because it´s laden with occidental biases, but that´s another story). And one may assume some i n t r i n s i c factors inside such "religio-philosophical systems", which foster such "human, all too human" tendencies. So, there´s much room left for further critical, comparative, ... studies.

[@ajaygupta-yq2vj]

I am from India 🙏🏼🙏🏼🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳🙏🏼🙏🏼

[@lizellevanwyk5927]

❤

[@kwan7278]

To take a step further into the magickal realm, would a devoted Spinozian who experiences and expresses his/her deepest desires would naturally see them manifest in the physical realm?

[@HisayaWada]

Would love to know what type of practices Spinoza engaged in. After reading Carlisle’s Spinoza’s Religion three times already, I want to explore the different histories of religion further. John, do you have any good book recommendations on Christianity?

[@rikkikeen1859]

I’m not John but I am finding his work extremely interesting. I’m currently half way through reading Tom Holland’s Dominion - the making of the western mind. It’s a broad telling of Christian history (the title is slightly misleading and I believe was changed from using the word Christian to better appeal to the market) anyway, it could be worth considering.

[@LokkesBoerlin]

Can second the Dominion recommendation!!

[@bayreuth79]

The notion of participation in God is fully consonant, I would argue, with the Christian faith since in both Catholicism and Orthodoxy the notion of _theōsis_ or deification simply is what we mean by salvation. In order for us to be deified we have to participate in God and since we cannot become what we are not it means that we already participate in God.

[@Joeonline26]

I agree. I don't understand why they think it would be otherwise when the classical tradition clearly has a metaphysics of participation

[@petternss6267]

Does anyone know of a good guide on how to read start the Ethics?

[@RobinTurner]

Did anyone catch the title of that book on animals around 54:00?

[@tomerafek9215]

Thank you both kindly for such an inspiring earnest search! not sure you heard donald hoffman on lex fridman where he arrives at search for anthology of consciousness from physics (since reality doesn't disclose the back story , why certain properties was selected for)- i am fascinating with the binding concept. Religious binding (religio) and money binding/tether (Gold Stnd. Bitcoin), how both these keeps us collectively more honest, or expressed in even more presumptuous way "what's between BTC hash rate re-factoring and personal or collective "transformative experience"

[@Knardsh]

Bravo

[@xenoblad]

The mention of two poles at the end of the video sounds like a kind of dialectic.

[@JiminiCrikkit]

yep 🙂🙃

[@thejamesQF]

Does anyone know how to spell the author's name John references near the end; saying he reads him regularly? It sounded like "Ku-za"

[@johnvervaeke]

Nicholas of Cusa.

[@thejamesQF]

@@johnvervaeke Thank you very much John. I just finished watching this interview, and as I often feel after watching your videos and lectures, I was inspired to further my own readings and practices. Bless you for offering your knowledge to the laymen, we are better for it.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

In German, Nikolaus Chrypffs (or Krebs) is also called: Nikolaus von Kues, (Bernkastel-)Kues being a little town at the banks of the river Saar, with some romantic flair, if I may say so, where Nicolaus Cusanus or Nicolaus de Cusa (his latinized names) was born in the year 1401 C.E. He seems to have been a really remarkable person; if he had become Pope, history may have taken a better path, because he seems to have been very conciliatory in religious matters (especially regarding the differences between Catholics and Protestants).

[@thejamesQF]

@@gunterappoldt3037 Danke sehr for this added depth! I find details around history and etymology to be very grounding when reading deep thinkers. This is well received.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

@@thejamesQF The thanks also go to "Mayers Grosses Taschenlexikon", which provided for the basic data, oldie but goodie. PS.: I mixed up the Saar- with the Mosel-river, I guess, sorry for that!

[@kbeetles]

When Clare says "Christianity is not a thing" but rather a mixture of many things, I cannot help but think that she approaches Christianity as a propositional "thing". This approach narrows it down to ideas on an intellectual level/understanding. Am I right?

[@unusual686]

I hope so.

[@Joeonline26]

A fair point

[@_ARCATEC_]

💓

[@Jimmy-el2gh]

She's beautiful

[@jamespercy8506]

having to assert something as morally necessary suggests that you don't fully grasp the obviousness of the position and the peril of turning away from it?

[@ajaygupta-yq2vj]

Your country name sir and Madam

[@ajaygupta-yq2vj]

I am talking please talk

[@danielfoliaco3873]

So far, you two have demolished Marx metaphysics, and now, moral and ethics is again relative to God. 😕, Great, now I can't assert Foucault moral position and all of the theory's that hold on to that position have been dismantled.

[@ajaygupta-yq2vj]

How are you doing

[@haroonaverroes6537]

hey dr. thief !